Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Body, interior, paint, chrome, and cosmetic items => Topic started by: Richard Madison on June 13, 2010, 19:54:28
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After a 2 year wait, the Mercedes Classic Center in California sent me an "official" Mercedes late style right side mirror for the 113.
Part number A110 810 20 16. The rubber base and inside reinforcement plate are not included, must be ordered separately. (The inside plate may be unavailable and might have to be custom made from a piece of aluminum.)
The correct late style right side mirror has not been available for a number of years. Mercedes Classic requested that they be made again and they have finally arrived. MB's price was a reasonable $90...much better than the repros or used auction web site mirrors which go for $150 or more.
Caution: some dealers and auction sites sell a near look-a-like for the 113 but it is not the same mirror and will not work correctly on a Pagoda. This incorrect mirror is Part number 108 811 06 25. It is correct for sedans like 108 and 111 that have a different shape curve at the top of the door. If used on a 113, the 108 mirror will not work if installed in the standard location for the 113 mirror...does not show a good view does not allow the window to close.
Richard M, NYC
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$90? That is indeed good news, and good for you, too.
Did you order the convex mirror for it? Makes the unit far more useful.
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Michael:
I'm a compulsive "Originality " guy. I usually favor correctness over safety. I'm not sure if convex mirror glass was an option when these cars were produced so I have flat glass.
My Euro car doesn't have Headrests or Hazard Flashers but it is "original".
A nit picker could say, "But your car did not have a right side mirror according to the Data Card, so how is that original?" That's correct, but I'm willing to make a concession for safety and install a safety item that the original buyer could have ordered from the local Mercedes dealer at that time.
Regards,
Richard M, NYC
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Richard--
So let me get this straight. Correctness over safety, BUT you will wait 2 years for a mirror that is 90% useless with flat glass?
Having had that mirror for 9 years, and 15,000 miles I'm in an experienced and comfortable position to say what you bought is the chrome equivalent of fuzzy dice. Merely a decorative item. I could say I bought the convex glass last year and have not looked back, but that would be wrong. I have indeed looked back and the view is good; useful and safe. FINALLY, that right hand mirror has some value. It still has critical adjustment, but offers just enough of a wider view to make it useful. When you fabricate that internal mounting piece, take the door apart and drill the holes for mounting, etc. and begin using it you will see what I mean. Of course a quick snap of your neck will do a better job than any mirror.
I think it is about $18 from the CC. Installs in 10 seconds. Removes in 10 seconds as well.
But to each their own. ;)
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I'm with you Richard. I feel that we need to keep these cars original. If we were truly concerned with safety we would not be driving these cars to begin with.
I'm a compulsive "Originality " guy. I usually favor correctness over safety. I'm not sure if convex mirror glass was an option when these cars were produced so I have flat glass.
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Michael:
You are a good friend for all these years but you may be a bit opinionated...and that's coming from a native New Yorker who knows opinionated.
I know you have roots near the Big Apple but maybe it's time to mellow out a bit...
I use the Flat Mirror to give me quick first glance before changing lanes to the right. I just need to know if something is nearby. The flat mirror does that for me and has done so for several years when I had the Havana Brown car.
Before actually making the lane change, I confirm that the lane is clear with a quick look over my right shoulder. Flat glass works for me and I'm very happy with it.
Richard M :)
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Richard,
I have a recently purchased passenger side door with factory mirror hardware. The door is currently not installed and without it's inner panel. If you need any precise measurements or pictures of the mounting plate or holes feel free to let me know.
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Hehe ... ;D
Hello Guys,
This is a very nice discussion ... I like it. ;)
Because - as so often - the reality is exactly between both positions. :D
Michael:
I'm a compulsive "Originality " guy. I usually favor correctness over safety. I'm not sure if convex mirror glass was an option when these cars were produced so I have flat glass.
Me, I am an originality guy as well but there is a point where we have to stop this. This "specific point" can only be defined by everybody him/herself and not in general valid to everyone.
You are arguing about the correctness of the one mirror (glass) against the other ... and which one is correct and which one is or may be not. But on the other side, consider please.... most of us owners aren't the original owners either ... and thus ... aftermarket replacements. ;)
Everybody of us has preferences slightly beyond the condition his car was originally delivered (added a Becker radio etc.) or other "no-go" standpoints...
Safety is always an issue and should not be regarded like "I usually favor correctness over safety."
Anyway...
it's not that I wanted (again) to start a discussion on originality but just mention that there was indeed an option for a convex shaped mirror glass in the old days ... however, only the fewest people were aware upon this.
Please see
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=10965.msg73415#msg73415
for the details (as Michael refers to).
Furthermore, there "was" already a parts number in the original parts list 10202 (W113, 250/280 SL as of January 1972) with the parts number 113 810 09 16 and today, there is another 113 part available for this:
Designation REAR VIEW MIRROR
Part number A1138102816
Price excl. VAT 70,00 Euro
Price incl. 19% VAT 83,30 Euro
Status available
This spare part can be ordered at your local Daimler representative. The price information includes the legal value added tax and is valid only for Germany. Please consider: all parts are subject to prior sale and price changes.
I do not exactly know whether or not the today available part is (basically) identical with the convex shaped mirror available in 1970-72.
I've ordered the convex glass with the 115 811 01 66 parts number which Tom (Hanson) mentioned, though, I haven't installed it yet on my 114.
Just my 2 cents...
Achim
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Richard,
I have a recently purchased passenger side door with factory mirror hardware. The door is currently not installed and without it's inner panel. If you need any precise measurements or pictures of the mounting plate or holes feel free to let me know.
Hi, Rick,
There is supposed to be a reinforcement welded to the underside of the door skin where the mirror fits.
Any chance you could photograph that plate?
Thanks
naj
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Naj:
The reinforcement plates I have seen have not been welded but simply placed between next to the door skin held by the two mirror nuts.
The homemade plates were cut from a flat aluminum plate, while the genuine MB plate was curved along one side to fit the curve on the inside top of the door...the MB plate had a light golden color on the surface..perhaps cadmium plating.
Do we know if these plates were welded during production? I guess a quick look at a driver side mirror plate would tell us.
Richard M, NYC
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Hi, Richard,
Well, lets see what Rick's finding are.
We've discussed this topic way back when.....
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=202.0
naj
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Richard,
Who is opinionated here? When you told us about your new find (one I bought in 2001) of the RH mirror, I merely suggested that you consider the convex mirror glass. I did not suggest an opinon of original/non original, merely that the convex mirror offers a [marginally] larger field of view, thus increasing the utility of what you just bought. I offer this from experience. Try it you might actually like it.
I've had both. Have you? If you don't like it you don't need to keep it on. It is not a major investment and only takes seconds to install. As Achim has pointed out the originality question might be moot. But as I said, to each their own. If you don't like it, fine. If you don't want it, fine. But to outright dismiss it because it isn't "original"? Come on. Are your tires original? ;)
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Tires are wear items. Originality is not as important there and often times not even possible. If the convex mirror was in fact an original option then all the better!
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Anyone want to buy a handbag? :)
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Right side, or left side Handbage ;)
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Mine was born with a right side mirror...
Just had to take a picture of it after reading this post....
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Hi, Rick,
There is supposed to be a reinforcement welded to the underside of the door skin where the mirror fits.
Any chance you could photograph that plate?
Thanks
naj
Naj, I will take a pic of the plate on the underside. I'll attempt to measure as well. - Gives me a chance to use he wife's new D90 :-) -
BTW, when I did look at the plate it was secured to the backside of the door with no mirror mounted. So, it is secured to the skin somehow, whether with adhesive, tack welds or another method.
If I were going to fabricate a reinforced mount I'd consider an aluminum plate with captive nuts. This can be accomplished with tack welded or epoxied nuts, nutserts or a thicker plate with threaded holes.
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Below is what I achieved this morn with little time and at a disadvantage with the door being in a tight storage area. I will have more time within the next couple days to document more precisely.
As it turns out, straight-on door interior access is very limited without damaging the structure. I was able to position a compact digital camera in the door cavity and take a few blind shots. Below are the two best, with the first being enhanced via Gimp (free version of Photoshop).
The plate looks and feels as if it bends over and into the top lip of the door. So, not only does this plate contour to the door skin but appears to have a 90 degree bend. IMO, this adds to the plates rigidity and offers more stability to the mirror.
Regarding how the plate is attached...I'm not yet sure. It's likely not spot or resistance welded....however, look at the circled dimple in the pic.
Perhaps adhesive aids in its attachment as I doubt it's held on solely by mechanical means (bent/folded into the lip).
Use of a modern, two-part auto panel adhesive would prove just as strong, if not stronger, than traditional welds.
The threads for the mirror mounting bolts appear to be tapped directly into both the door skin and the plate as if it were one thicker sheet of metal.
More to come, including dimensions.
On a side note: I may create a digital template which could be downloaded, printed and used to properly locate mirror mounting holes. To insure accuracy the format must lend itself to verifiable scaling...thoughts?
(http://i609.photobucket.com/albums/tt180/RickMNJ/PassengerMirrorPlate71280SLUS-2a.jpg)
(http://i609.photobucket.com/albums/tt180/RickMNJ/PassengerMirrorPlate71280SLUS-1.jpg)
(http://i609.photobucket.com/albums/tt180/RickMNJ/PassengerMirrorPlate71280SLUS-2b.jpg)
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I have both doors dismantled and can confirm that the plates are as the photographs above,they are welded to the door structure at the front end but are not welded/secured at the rear.
As i require both LH and RH can someone inform me of the part numbers that i require for my 1968 280sl.(we have two numbers quoted for the rhs above A113 381 02816 and A110 810 20 16 which is correct?
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Eric,
What type of weld is at the front of the plate?
Also, is your car a US, LH drive model? If not would that influence the part numbers requested?
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The right side mirror sent by the Mercedes Classic Center two weeks ago is Part Number A110 810 20 16. This is the MB part number for the late style right side mirror for a W113 car.
Richard M, NYC
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Richard, Is the part number the same for a RH Driver side mirror? Just curious.
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Rick,
The weld is conventional TIG welding(did they have TIG available 40 years ago?) if not it is Oxy/acc: .
When these doors were made i would have thought that all doors were produced with the strengthening plate installed,the door builder would not know if the customer was ordering wing mirrors or not.
My car is LHD built for the Belgium market.
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Hi, Rick,
Thanks for the pictures.
There is some confusion in the EPC about LHD and RHD mirrors.
May be worth a chat with Tom Hanson?
naj
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Rick,
The weld is conventional TIG welding(did they have TIG available 40 years ago?) if not it is Oxy/acc: .
When these doors were made i would have thought that all doors were produced with the strengthening plate installed,the door builder would not know if the customer was ordering wing mirrors or not.
My car is LHD built for the Belgium market.
I'm doubting the use of TIG or even GMAW (MIG) on production of this car. My guess would be stick or Oxy/Ac.
To be honest, the compromised peek I was able to get didn't suggest such a weld as, IMHO, it would be quite conspicuous. That doesn't mean different methods weren't used though.
I will do my best to get to the bottom of how this piece is constructed and installed...after all it's a very popular "upgrade".
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Just received my RH mirror and convex mirror from the Classic Center. Thanks for the tip!
Rolland
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Hello Rick
Can you measure the mounting holes as on your RHS door,i have just obtained a RHS mirror and i want to drill the holes in the door.
As Naj says ! You only get one shot !
When these mirrors were fitted at the factory would it be safe to assume that RH and LH would have been fitted in the same location to maintain correct balance?
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Not sure if it's factory correct but my RH mirror was installed in exactly the same place as the left hand mirror...and I like to think you get a second chance to reposition a mirror since the rubber mount will cover holes in the wrong place if they are close to the final position. Of course, getting it right the first time is best!
I had a 108 mirror on the right side door and could not close the window when the mirror was in viewing position...
now I can see to the rear and roll up the window. Life is Good :D
Richard M, NYC
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Hello Rick
Can you measure the mounting holes as on your RHS door,i have just obtained a RHS mirror and i want to drill the holes in the door.
As Naj says ! You only get one shot !
When these mirrors were fitted at the factory would it be safe to assume that RH and LH would have been fitted in the same location to maintain correct balance?
Will do. I've been away from the doors I have store. I also found what may be an oddity with the plate in one door....I'll post within the next couple days. Promise.