Bosch, Headlights and Supplier Info FWIW

[mdsalemi]

(FWIW=For what its worth)

I made contact with my friends at Bosch, and through a variety of internal contacts at Bosch I have revealed some answers.

1)  Bosch entered into a joint venture agreement with Italian firm Magneti Marelli in 1999, 50%/50%, and the new JV was called Automotive Lighting.  They basically took over the lighting operations of Bosch that had been moved to the Czech Republic earlier.

2)  MM bought out the Bosch's 50% interest in 2003, so Automotive Lighting no longer had Bosch affliliation.

3)  The AA division (automotive aftermarket) of Bosch buys product from AL for distribution and puts it in the familiar yellow box...I believe this same division packages the same products in a different box for MB.

So, while the factory hasn't changed, and neither the tooling, today you are buying "Bosch" aftermarket headlight products no longer made by Bosch but bought from Automotive Lighting and packaged as Bosch.  Our [replacement] headlights have been made in Czech since the 90's but ownership and distribution has had a bit of, shall we say, "reorganization".

This information came from their engineering process manager in Michigan and their automotive aftermarket account manager in Illinois.

[abe280SL]

Thank goodness it wasn't moved to China....
abe

[mdsalemi]

Thank goodness it wasn't moved to China....
abe

Be careful what you wish for Abe--

http://www.china4auto.com/ennews/html/Auto_parts/20091113/125809658018035.html
http://www.atzonline.com/index.php;do=show/site=a4e/sid=4234890444b6ac2df2237b243085172/alloc=1/id=9601

Magneti Marelli is already in China! 

[Andres G]

Michael and Abe,

This is a very interesting topic, with great insider information. This type of change in ownership of production facilities takes place quite often in the CPG world (Consumer Packaged Goods) as also does in the technology industry. There are so many things sold under certain brands but actually manufactured by other brands... sometimes it's hard to believe.

One good example is the currently en-vogue GPS business, which started off with devices produced mainly in the US and some European countries, and are now 98% produced in China and some other southeast Asian countries. Most of the factories are either JVs with local government or local Asian entrepreneurs with access to cash and a 5 year supply contract with the big ones. This change, rather than affect quality, has indeed improved it a bunch not only providing consumers with access to what used to be reserved for the rich and powerful, but also allowing for more competition among manufacturers seeking to grow their shares.

I would not be too afraid of a move over to china of any large corporations' manufacturing facility, as they are seeking to maintain their quality reputation just as much as we are looking to get great quality parts at a lower price.

Regards,
Andres G

[abe280SL]

Well I can't agree and disagree more!  Alot of products I have bought tools, electric motors, chromed pieces made in China all are CRAP.  The mistake sometimes is that american and european companies deal with Chinese manufactures directly and left with little training and supervision producing inferior products even if they are made to specs.  The japanese on the other hand, know who the good the bad and the ugly are in china.  They have had more experience with this and they know who the good and bad manufacturers are.  It will be a learning process to weed the bad companies....we will pay the price while they sort it out.
abe

[RickM]

Capitol West used to be a reputable supplier of hard to get Bosch lenses and other lighting. Sadly it appears that they are out of business. If I'm wrong please share new contact info.

Out of date contact information:
 
Capitol West - MB accessories

P.O. Box 661597

Sacramento, California  95866-1597

(800) 445-8648
website:  www.capitolwest.com

[Andres G]

Well I can't agree and disagree more!  Alot of products I have bought tools, electric motors, chromed pieces made in China all are CRAP.  The mistake sometimes is that american and european companies deal with Chinese manufactures directly and left with little training and supervision producing inferior products even if they are made to specs.

Abe, I too have experienced the crappy quality screw drivers, the fogging chrome flashlights and the rechargeable powertools that don't recharge... but I also understand that I paid much less than half of what a premium brand product would have costed me when I made my election (DeWalt for powertools, Stanley or Bahco for the screwdrivers and wrenches, etc).

I remember having a conversation with a large scale multi-crop producer back in Argentina who complained about the cheap bearings imported from China that would only last one season on his plows... He kept remembering how much better off he was when he bought SKF or Timkens which lasted at least 3 seasons, so I asked why he would not go back to them as I knew them to be readily available. His reply was simple, the SKFs were priced at around $200 while the chinese alternatives were less than $20.

It will be a learning process to weed the bad companies....we will pay the price while they sort it out.
abe

I agree, but at least we'll pay a cheap price 

Andres

[glenn]

Does two extra installations and down time eat up $160?

[mdsalemi]

Some updates:

1)  My friend(s) at Bosch are great.  Sometimes when they've answered a question for me, (as they have here) they don't let go!  They take it further!  So after finding out about the factory transfers, joint ventures, AA (automotive aftermarket) etc.--which was all that I asked, one of these friends actually went as far as digging deeper (I did not ask him to...) and uncovering part numbers for our headlights in the Bosch system, and then reporting back to me!  So, here is the information which came a bit later, after I made the posting--

Here is some part number information for your friend.
 
0 302 650 001
0 302 650 003   (replaces ..001)
0 302 650 005   (replaces ..003)
1 305 542 063 combined with 1 305 541 046  (replaces ..005)
 
Unfortunately, all of these part numbers have been discontinued at AA and we have no stock left in Germany or North America.  Hopefully your friend has another source.

Best Regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

So, if the headlight doors/parts (I assume the same holds true for Euro/USA headlight parts) are still available from MBUSA, Bosch is now out of the loop, and they are sole-sourced from MB...and you can bet your boots they are at significantly higher prices when the distribution becomes ONLY from MBUSA.  Through all the crazy ownership thing the parts are coming from the same tooling in the same factory!

2)  As for Chinese (and other far eastern products) I could go on for a very long time and it doesn't belong in this topic.  Suffice to say that I try to purchase the best quality I can afford, whether it is products for my home or garage.  Rarely if ever (with some notable exceptions) is the pinnacle of quality ever from the far east.  For some people having "things" at a great price is the best.  For me, it is having the best quality I can afford, and trying to support a domestic manufacturing economy.  But that's just me.  Lowest cost just doesn't thrill me.  You'll never go wrong with investment in quality.

When the first American in space, the late Alan Shepard (Mercury Redstone Freedom 7, and later Apollo 14) was asked about some of his "feelings" about being in space (n.b. engineers and pilots don't often talk about "feelings"), he said--

It's a very sobering feeling to be up in space and realize that one's safety factor was determined by the lowest bidder on a government contract.

[Andres G]

Does two extra installations and down time eat up $160?

Glenn, in Argentina labor is ridiculously cheap... exchange rate US $ to AR $ is almost 1 to 4. Therefore most products unless manufactured locally, are priced in US $, while labor is priced in pesos. That being said, there is a significant downtime on the plows when on the off season, so the extra installations alone do not affect the cost all that much. Also, keep in mind that a single plow might have 20/30 sets of bearings, so the number becomes more significant when you multiply the value of the piece by the number of pieces you need...

Michael, I apologize for thread-jacking your original post, and thank you for the excellent quote.

Andres G

[Nate]

I believe a Chinese company bought SKF about 10-12 years ago around the time my late Uncle retired from the company in Altoona, PA.  The days of quality and SKF in the same sentence are probably numbered if not already gone.

[ja17]

Hello,
Sorry for keeping this hijack going,
How history does repeat itself......... I remember exactly the same discussions in the sixty's about cheaply made Japenese products!  "Made in Japan" was the punch line of many jokes. When Honda announced they were going to build and ship cars to the US this was mostly a laughable matter also. Chinese products already have a found a permanent place in the world. Quality may soon follow if history repeats.

[mdsalemi]

For Americans, at least, who tire of simply "everything made in Lower Slobbovia" or wherever, and want to continue to support their local economy--

http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/

You always have to look carefully and know what you are buying.  I am very conscious of the sourcing of things these days, as myself and more than 3.8 million of my fellow Michiganians search for employment, and have the highest unemployment rate in the USA.  Many newly minted unemployed of the past few years, sunk their buyout dollars (those who had them) into various business and franchise ventures, and many have failed--because discretionary income is nearly non-existent.

I think Craftsman, Matco, Channellock, Estwing and others make tools on par with anything in the world.
I wear--really--Joseph Abboud suits, made in Massachusetts; not Calvin Klein from China. (for the rare job interview )
My home kitchen has inarguably the finest knives in the world--Cutco, made in Oneida, NY.

Any American want some inspiration?  Read the advertisments from WeatherTech; they show up in most of the car magazines.  Or, read it here:

http://www.weathertech.com/UserFiles/File/amessagefromdavidmacneil.pdf

I think our friends in other countries should support THEIR local economies as well.  There are fine suits made in Canada, tools in UK, and knives from Germany; obviously these are merely examples.  Imports generally gain a foothold on price not quality.  The loss of local manufacturing EVERYWHERE is detrimental to local economies; not just the USA.

I hope history repeats itself!  "Japan, Inc." turned out to be a house of cards and is still recovering.  Read the post I made today asking about Toyota.  There's a reference to a telling article published today in the Wall Street Journal.  (My Nikon--one of the bastions of Japanese quality--is made in Thailand!  So much for Japan.)

http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/bubble.htm

Andres, I gave you the real quote from Alan Shepard.  What is more popular, but inaccurate (but WAY more fun!!) is this version:

"Commander Shepard, what were you thinking when you sat on top of that MISSILE waiting for launch?"
"I was thinking that every *&^%$# piece of this ^%$  *&^%$# rocket was built by the low-cost bidder!"

[RickM]

Who would pay more for (or even choose) a Bosch headlight assembly made in the USA over one made in Germany?

[Andres G]

Hello Rick,

I'm not sure about the rest of the people in this forum, but myself being foreign I can tell you that for a very long time "Made in USA" was a guarantee of quality, durability and dependability almost un-matched by any other nation's brands.

I would applaud those who prefer to defend their home country's industry. I try my best to do this every time I can, for example ordering Argentine wine at every restaurant I go to, no matter which country I'm in.

Cheers, Andres G

[abe280SL]

Well,
I would buy the best product that I can afford irrespective of origin.  To buy domestic "crap" might actually do some harm in the long run because they will not be forced to improve their products and by the time everyone realizes its crap and no body buys it anymore a whole industry may have to close down. Remember the great US cars of the 70s...when people started buying japanese cars it forced our industry to shape up or ship out.  And I don't want to hear that that is why today gm and chrysler is in troubble...managment and labor along with a bad economy made that mess.
abe