Author Topic: play at tach drive ?????  (Read 32262 times)

erickmarciano

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play at tach drive ?????
« on: March 14, 2005, 22:28:48 »
just replaced the tach bushing <on engine > and I still have play is this normal?I read that I can put a shim from an injector is this ok?
thansk
Erick

1971 280sl
1962 VW
1954 Allstate vespa
1958 gs150 vespa
1962 gs160 vespa
1994 E500 W124
1971 280sl
1989 Porsche 930 coupe
1988 e30 m3
2001 ducati mh900
2006 ps1000
1962 Vespa GS160

ja17

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Re: play at tach drive ?????
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2005, 00:30:04 »
Hello Erick,

Yes there is a spec on the actual endplay of the gear buried somewhere in the early BBB As I recall. You can get shims to adjust the endplay to almost zero. It just so happens that the copper injector seal is the correct size. you may have to lap it a bit to adjust the thickness if too thick.

You were wise to check and repair this.
It is just not worth the risk, if the gear moves up high enough the oil pump dis-engages and the engine keeps running with no oil pressure!!! Excess movement also causes wear on expensive timing gears.

Two very important preventative measures for every W113 owner should be checking  the upper oil filter seal and checking the timing gear end play!



Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

Ben

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Re: play at tach drive ?????
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2005, 04:12:58 »
I need to do this......is there a link that tells me how ?

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.

rwmastel

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Re: play at tach drive ?????
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2005, 07:21:31 »
quote:
Originally posted by Ben

I need to do this......is there a link that tells me how?
Sure!  http://www.sl113.org/forums/search.asp

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420
Rodd

Did you search the forum before asking?
2017 C43 AMG
2006 Wrangler Rubicon
1966 230SL auto "Italian"

Ben

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Re: play at tach drive ?????
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2005, 09:22:18 »
[:0]
« Last Edit: March 15, 2005, 09:38:25 by Ben »

Naj ✝︎

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Re: play at tach drive ?????
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2005, 11:29:32 »
Tacho drive bush
New/Old

Download Attachment: TachoDrv10.JPG
32.12 KB
Note: The top bronze ridge completely wore out and the gear was wearing into the base bush. Up/down play was 4-5mm
naj

65 230SL
68 280SL
« Last Edit: March 15, 2005, 11:31:48 by naj »
68 280SL

Benz Dr.

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Re: play at tach drive ?????
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2005, 12:28:20 »
I think I'll bring Joe on the team here as an intern ~) The Dr. has patients and  Joe probably knows how to hold a wrench......

Daniel G Caron
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

erickmarciano

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Re: play at tach drive ?????
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2005, 13:55:15 »
where does the felt washer go?

1971 280sl
1962 VW
1954 Allstate vespa
1958 gs150 vespa
1962 gs160 vespa
1994 E500 W124
1971 280sl
1989 Porsche 930 coupe
1988 e30 m3
2001 ducati mh900
2006 ps1000
1962 Vespa GS160

ja17

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Re: play at tach drive ?????
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2005, 17:28:55 »
Thanks Dan,
When can I start. I'll work for food.



Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

Benz Dr.

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Re: play at tach drive ?????
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2005, 17:43:34 »
Shelley is a good cook and not hard to look at....

  Felt washer ?????? What felt washer ?

Dan Caron's
 SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
 slbarn.mbz.org
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

erickmarciano

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Re: play at tach drive ?????
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2005, 19:39:15 »
this felt seal , it was under the oil seal , si this corect?

Download Attachment: seal.JPG
49.8 KB

1971 280sl
1962 VW
1954 Allstate vespa
1958 gs150 vespa
1962 gs160 vespa
1994 E500 W124
1971 280sl
1989 Porsche 930 coupe
1988 e30 m3
2001 ducati mh900
2006 ps1000
1962 Vespa GS160

ja17

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Re: play at tach drive ?????
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2005, 23:01:42 »
Hello Erick,
The Vertical timing gear is also referred to as the "driveshaft for the oil pump and tachometer" in the BBB. The specified clearance for endplay is very small (0.1mm - 0.25mm) or (0.004" to 0.010").

The gear drives the oil pump and the distributor and is driven from the horizontal timing gear which drives the fuel injected pump.

The thrust piece or "aluiminum/bronze bushing" wears and allows this vertical timing gear to move upward during engine operation.  In severe cases, the gear moves up enough to allow the oil pump to dis-engage and stop turning. The engine continues to run fine with no warning until the oil starvation causes mechanical failure!

Checking this endplay or wear is fairly simple. Remove the tachometer cable and insert a screw gently fingertight and move the vertical timing gear up and down to measure "endplay". As specified 0.1mm - 0.25mm (0.004" - 0.010") is ideal. Excessive wear will eventually cause premature gear wear or failure.

Download Attachment: 2.JPG
84.11 KB

If you have excessive endplay the "thrust piece" (alum/bronze) bushing should be replaced and/or shimmed.

The factory recommends shimming between the bronze and aluminum part of the thrust piece. However copper injector seals can be used as shims between the gear and the thrust piece and seem to work fine. Often times the bronze portion of the thrust piece is worn uneven and must be smoothed out before shimming. Replacement of the thrust piece is best.

Removal of the thrust piece is done by removing the 22mm fitting and the 10mm hex head set screw. The thrust piece can be coaxed upward and will narrowly clear the cylinder head. The timing gear can now be removed and inspected for wear at the helicentric cut gear.

Download Attachment: Removal of 10mm set screw.jpg
76.16 KB

Download Attachment: bushing removal.jpg
49.5 KB

Download Attachment: removal of verticle gear.jpg
60.04 KB

Download Attachment: Bushing wear.jpg
27.04 KB

b]Download Attachment:[/b] Verticle gear assembly.jpg
30.96 KB

Some owners have experienced problems installing the new thrust piece. Light wet sanding of the outer circumference and freezing the thrust piece prior to installation will help if problems arise. Normally they will install without these measures.

Endplay should be checked again after installation of the 10mm hex head set screw. Shim if needed.

The 22mm fitting has a rubber O ring beneath it along with a seal ring inside it. There is also the infamous "felt washer"!!! which is new to my experience also. We need a part number for this if it does really exist. The seal in the fitting is the most difficult part of the job. Removal from the fitting can be a challenge. Some listers have removed them by drilling them out! If you do not have a oil leak at the tach drive you may elect to leave the original seal in place. You can always replace it later.

You may want to have seals on hand before you begin. Here is a breakdown photo of the gearing with part numbers. Mike Hughes has provided updated part numbers.

Michael Hughes wrote;
" I, to, am having an oil leak at the tach drive on my 230SL with 75k and thought a little preventive maintenance might be in order as it sounds like a leak here might indicate wear below. I went across the street to the M-B dealer and ordered the thrust piece, rubber o-ring, aluminum coverplate ring (just in case, it was under $4!), and seal. The thrust piece is about $91 and the total for all parts just over $100. The parts guys really appreciated the photo detail as it made their search much easier! The part number for the thrust piece remains the same but all the rest of the part numbers have been superseded: 621 050 05 06 is now 007 997 73 46, 126 990 01 04 is now 126 990 01 40, and 120 261 00 80 became 115 274 00 60 and is now 621 997 00 40. Replacing these items looks to be fairly straightforward."

I will add photos soon to this thread so stay tuned!

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
« Last Edit: March 16, 2005, 00:31:52 by ja17 »
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

knirk

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Re: play at tach drive ?????
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2005, 04:37:04 »
Joe, fantastic piece of information as usual!
This is the kind of information that should be under engine / engine overhaul in the “Technical Articles” in our forum. The search function is very good, but usually I end up with too many strings which I then have to read through to find what I’m looking for.
Cees, I know the group is working on the Technical Manual, but in the mean time maybe somebody could copy information like Joe’s under the chapters in the Technical Articles.


Per G. Birkeland
69 280 sl aut 834
Norway

ja17

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Re: play at tach drive ?????
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2005, 05:27:01 »
Hello Knirk,
Thanks, I have some additional photos which I have to compress and add to it this evening.

Joe

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

erickmarciano

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Re: play at tach drive ?????
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2005, 07:12:18 »
I think I know now where the felt washer goes . I think it is for the dipstick ????can this be possible?

1971 280sl
1962 VW
1954 Allstate vespa
1958 gs150 vespa
1962 gs160 vespa
1994 E500 W124
1971 280sl
1989 Porsche 930 coupe
1988 e30 m3
2001 ducati mh900
2006 ps1000
1962 Vespa GS160

Naj ✝︎

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Re: play at tach drive ?????
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2005, 07:59:23 »
Erick,
That felt seal is a mystery. Not seen one on any of my 2 cars.
Here's a picture of the seal. It was a bear to change as Joe said.

Download Attachment: TachoDrv12.JPG
44.68 KB

I have access to reasonably priced thrust bushes 126 180 00 44.
Contact me off line if required.
naj

65 230SL
68 280SL
« Last Edit: March 16, 2005, 08:03:56 by naj »
68 280SL

A Dalton

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Re: play at tach drive ?????
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2005, 08:23:57 »
quote:
Originally posted by naj

Erick,
That felt seal is a mystery. Not seen one on any of my 2 cars.
Here's a picture of the seal. It was a bear to change as Joe said.

Download Attachment: TachoDrv12.JPG
44.68 KB

I have access to reasonably priced thrust bushes 126 180 00 44.
Contact me off line if required.
naj

65 230SL
68 280SL



 Does anyone have the  overall length measure spec of a new thrust bush ?
Tnx

erickmarciano

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Re: play at tach drive ?????
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2005, 09:40:22 »
purchased an injector washer as a shim but the shim is not as wide as the new thrust bush , will it wear uneven?can the injector seal wear to a point where it will break and go in the engine?

thanks

1971 280sl
1962 VW
1954 Allstate vespa
1958 gs150 vespa
1962 gs160 vespa
1994 E500 W124
1971 280sl
1989 Porsche 930 coupe
1988 e30 m3
2001 ducati mh900
2006 ps1000
1962 Vespa GS160

ja17

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Re: play at tach drive ?????
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2005, 11:37:42 »
Yes,
You are correct, the felt washer is for the late small dipsticks!

Erick,
I have never heard of any problems from using the injector seals. Many people have used this fix. The alternative is find metric shims. Shim between the bronze bushing and the aluminum in this case. Try Mc Master/Carr (order on line)for these.

http://www.mcmaster.com/

There is a nice assortment of round metric shims on page 3031 of their catalog. Their on-line catalog is fantastic and the service is excellent.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
« Last Edit: March 16, 2005, 11:49:04 by ja17 »
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

Naj ✝︎

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Re: play at tach drive ?????
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2005, 13:06:33 »
quote:
Does anyone have the overall length measure spec of a new thrust bush ?

I make it 62.8mm ridge to ridge.

naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
68 280SL

Benz Dr.

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Re: play at tach drive ?????
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2005, 13:53:55 »
Oh, THAT felt washer...... I knew that and thought maybe it was the one. Only other felt pieces are around the heater vents,wood on the dash ( maybe ) and some parts inside the distributor.

 Hey! Let's start a felt thread. ( excuse the pun )

Dan Caron's
 SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
 slbarn.mbz.org
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

A Dalton

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Re: play at tach drive ?????
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2005, 14:12:10 »
quote:
Originally posted by naj

Quote
Does anyone have the overall length measure spec of a new thrust bush ?


I make it 62.8mm ridge to ridge.

naj
naj,
 Many Thanks
 should be 2.473" for me over here ..
Danke
68 280SL

erickmarciano

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Re: play at tach drive ?????
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2005, 17:34:06 »
trying to put it all back together and it is HARD , should the screw line up and go into the thrust piece?

1971 280sl
1962 VW
1954 Allstate vespa
1958 gs150 vespa
1962 gs160 vespa
1994 E500 W124
1971 280sl
1989 Porsche 930 coupe
1988 e30 m3
2001 ducati mh900
2006 ps1000
1962 Vespa GS160

glennard

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Re: play at tach drive ?????
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2005, 19:46:07 »
quote:
Originally posted by erickmarciano

trying to put it all back together and it is HARD , should the screw line up and go into the thrust piece?

1971 280sl
1962 VW
1954 Allstate vespa
1958 gs150 vespa
1962 gs160 vespa


Anybody for an electronic tach?

ja17

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Re: play at tach drive ?????
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2005, 19:48:31 »
Hello Erick,
You must be sure the shim you are using is not too thick. The 10mm set screw should be lined up with it's hole in the thrust piece. You can lap shim or the thrust piece to adjust ( lap with wet-dry 600 grit sandpaper on flat glass use water).

The 10mm set screw should screw easily or it may be mis-aligned. Remember some  end play is acceptable.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback