TUV Test Failed - update and progress

[jameshoward]

Thank you all for your most helpful advice on what early work needs to be done to my new car, following this thread http://index.php?topic=6265

I will sit down over Christmas and see what's within the realm of the possible/affordable.

For those who know what the German Government TUV test involves, it's pretty harsh, especially on rust etc. The car failed on the following points:

- Headlights (no surprises there, since it still has the US ones that put out about as much light as 2 tired glow worms in a dark jar)
- registration (licence plate) lights in op.
- Excessive play in the steering relay & lower swivel bearings
- Coroded drivers side floor panel (known to me - this has been bodged over the years and must be cut out and replaced - the carpet was SOAKING after being shipped from the US and water appears there each day despite now being garaged; I have no idea where it's coming from)
- Excessive play in LH read shock lower mount
- RH (and LH almost) shocks unservicable
- No 3 point harness
- Centre exhaust bracket missing (again, known and is a result of the new exhaust being put on incorrectly - it will have to be cut off and re-welded)

It could have been much worse, although my mechanic is yet to climb all over it. No doubt his good German self will find much more to be gloomy about.

I would be interested to know from the European or British membership whether anyone else has been told to fit a 3 point seatbelt mount to these cars. If they have, how does one do it? ANy points gratefully received.

I've also posted a few early photos (at the second attempt).



James

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[glennard]

Beauty is only skin deep!

[enochbell]

James,

Just a suggestion, but you may be able to get away with replacing the headlight with a sealed halogen lamp that fits in the US headlight door.  Complete conversion to euro headlights will be very expensive and the sealed lamp alternative may work, I hope.

Best,
g

'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon

[rwmastel]

quote:Originally posted by jameshoward

Excessive play in the steering relay & lower swivel bearings

Search for "steering box bushing" or some combination of that.  This is a fix a novice can do.

quote:Originally posted by jameshoward

I would be interested to know from the European or British membership whether anyone else has been told to fit a 3 point seatbelt mount to these cars. If they have, how does one do it? Any points gratefully received.

Here's some seatbelt threads:
http://index.php?topic=5940
http://index.php?topic=4912
http://index.php?topic=4318
http://index.php?topic=4117
http://index.php?topic=3937
http://index.php?topic=3881
http://index.php?topic=3405
http://index.php?topic=3092

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[Ricardo]

James
If the floor continues to get wet, I'll suggest that the drains for the scuttlebox (fresh air intake vent) are possibly blocked. This can lead to rust in the metal tubes that connect the drains to the outside, engine bay side, of the firewall. There are rubber hoses, which can be accessed from under the dash running from the scuttlebox to the metal tubes that pass through the firewall. If these get plugged, which they do easily from debris getting into the vent area, the metal tubes can rust and allow water to enter the firewall crossmember, which can hold several litres of water, undetected, until it rusts through a section of floor reinforcing which is connected to the firewall crossmember and drops down under the floor on both sides of the car. I know this because it happened to me and I had to replace the firewall crossmember and much of the passenger side floor/support frame.
The drain tubes should have a stiff wire run up them from outside in the engine bay, up into the scuttlebox, to make sure they aren't blocked. There is usually a rubber ball type covering (engine bay)on the driverside drain and the pass. side is usually just a metal tube, turned down directly above the exhaust head pipe, on left hand drive cars. Hopefully this is not the problem in your car..... These tubes can allow water to drain onto your feet while driving as well,if the rubber becomes perished, but the metal tubes have not yet rusted.
I think if you do a search on "scuttlebox", there are some photos in previous threads to make this clearer

[ja17]

Hello James,

Not really that bad.  The driver's floor will be the biggest challenge. If you cannot use the sealed halogen headlights you most likely will be able to use the conversions which have the seprate bulb. Everything fits in the standard US type assemblies. You can get a wide variety of different wattage halogen lamps for these. Marchal, Cibie, and Bosch are some of the manufacturers. these are fairly inexpensive and provide excellent lighting. Some Mercedes like the 300 SEL 6.3 came from the factory with this type of lighting and never had the full glass covers like most of the other euro style lighting.



Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

[jameshoward]

Thanks for the posts about the blocked drainage tubes. Today I set about trying to find, then unblock them.

I used a wire coat hanger to check the tubes. The right hand tube (as you face direction of travel), the more accessible one, had no rubber ball, which threw me for a while. Once found (at the end of my nose) I inserted a wire a long way up the tube and it did not seem blocked.

The situation was somewhat different for the left hand one. (See attached 'photos for a laugh). The ball was present and the attached photograph might serve to give an idea of what said ball contained. (Most of a forrest; I think I will use the contents as compost for my orchids). The ball was completely perished and the drainage tube well rusted, but not irreparable. I was hoping that lots of water would flood out as I unblocked the tube but none did. That said, today was the first day that the foot well was dry.

QUESTION: Is there benefit in removing the air intake and seeing the state of things inside, because...

QUESTION 2: (probably a really dumb question) when I rock the car from side to side with my ear against the firewall, (right hand side) I heard lots of fluid sloshing about. Is there fluid in there for the heating system (I noticed that pipes lead into the firewall from the engine bay)? I am now paranoid that my firewall is disintegrating from the inside out due to litres of water being trapped therein! (Although both drains seem to be open and nothing is coming out).

As for the windscreen washer pump, it works (the motor works) but it won't draw water. I took it apart and it seems fine, but I think I'll have to buy a new one.

I also pulled out the spark plugs today to see how the fuel mix was. Cylinders 1 & 2 were sooty; cylinder 3 was sooty and oily (sooty I could cope with; oily was a little more worrying). 4-6 will wait until tomorrow.

I am also looking forward to taking the top down for the first time tomorrow to see about the drainage holes in the hood space.

James


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[66andBlue]

quote:Originally posted by jameshoward
.. QUESTION 2: (probably a really dumb question) when I rock the car from side to side with my ear against the firewall, (right hand side) I heard lots of fluid sloshing about. Is there fluid in there for the heating system (I noticed that pipes lead into the firewall from the engine bay)? ...

James,
I don't believe that the water in the heater core will drain completely even with both valves open. Here are pictures what this looks like from below: http://sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=5181
Disconnect inlet and outlet hoses on the firwall and check whether you can blow out the remaining water

quote:As for the windscreen washer pump, it works (the motor works) but it won't draw water. I took it apart and it seems fine, but I think I'll have to buy a new one.

Try the same, that is, blow air through the pump and check whether it is leaking. If my memory is correct it should be sealed when not running. If it is sealed, then perhaps you just need to prime it.

Alfred
1966 blue 230SL automatic

[rwmastel]

So, let me know if I understand this process correctly:

- These heaterbox (scuttlebox) train tubes travel through the firewall box section, right?
- When they rust, the fluid empties from there into the box section, right?
- The fulid is held in the box section until that rusts through?

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[ted280sl]

Rodd and James,
  The tubes from the scuttle box can clog, then water will no longer drain from the scuttle box. At that point the scuttle box overflows and everything rusts. James could have been getting water into his car because the tubes were blocked or because the metal drains have a section os ruber hose in them. If the rubber hose breaks draining water will leak into the interior of the car. The sloshing James heard could be from water which overflowed from the scuttle box or it could have been water in the heater core. I would check the ruber hoses and if the inside of the car stays dry I would suggest you leave the heater core alone for now.
Regards,
Ted
1969 280SL

[Ricardo]

Rodd
Yes that's correct, the tubes exit the scuttle box, then switch to rubber then back to metal that travels through the firewall crossmember to exit in the engine bay. If the blockage occurs past the rubber hoses then the metal tubes that pass through the crossmember can rust out and fill up the crossmember with water which has no place to escape until it rusts through. If James is hearing water slosh when rocking the car, this can't be the heater core...the passage ways in the core itself are too small to create a sloshing sound and it would mean the cooling system was low enough to allow sloshing....I doubt very much it could be heard outside of the car either. I suspect that the water is in the crossmember and even if the tubes seem to be OK, it would be very difficult to tell if there was a small rust hole where it passes through the crossmember. These metal tubes would be approx. 6-8" long and there is no way you can see inside of them. From James description of the debris in the rubber ball, I would guess they have been blocked long enough to rust through the tube and likely this is where the rust in the floor comes from as the support member that runs below the firewall crossmember will also fill up with water which eventually rusts through into the footwells.

[J. Huber]

Wow, they really check things out there in the Heimatland. My car wouldn't get past the front door! The only thing that would really bug me is the seatbelt thing -- yes the 3-pointers are safer, but if the car was made in Germany and had no belts, or only lap belts -- it seems only fair that they let them remain on the road.

Good luck with the repairs James. The good news is, by the time your car is road worthy, it will handle much better and be worth more if you try and sell it. As for looking into the air intake -- I'd say it is a good idea. Then you can poke the wire from top and see that the entire drain is clear. Mine was plugged and my reaming pushed a lot of debris (sadly, mostly rust particles) out the bottom. The extent of my "hidden" rust is yet to be known, although my floor corners were ugly. Needless to say, I won't be moving to Deutschland anytime soon...

James
63 230SL

[rwmastel]

quote:Originally posted by Ricardo

....then back to metal that travels through the firewall crossmember to exit in the engine bay. If the blockage occurs past the rubber hoses then the metal tubes that pass through the crossmember can rust out and fill up the crossmember with water which has no place to escape until it rusts through.

I guess the engineers expect regular maintenance instead of letting the car sit in storage for years.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[jameshoward]

Ricardo,

I'm going to do some further investigation today, but from what you say it sounds as though the only way to remove the water that is probably in the firewall would be to do something pretty radical - and the only thing I can think of would be to drill into it. Clearly I don't intend to do this until I've checked everything else I can think of (rather, that the membership can think of) but if the only way to get the water out is to wait for it to rust, I think I need to do something. Am I correct, and assuming this course of action is required, where is the best place to drill that would produce a hole into a single skinned low point within the firewall that might allow any trapped water to drain?

James

[Ricardo]

Hi James
If the water is just in the crossmember and has not migrated into the box section running down under the floor, then I would say yes you need to drill a hole somewhere. In my case the rust had eaten away at the area around the pass. side drain tube itself. Initially all I was aware of, was a small dime sized area of rust under the tube where it exits the firewall, so perhaps this is close to the lowest spot, though truthfully the crossmember is pretty level across the car and if you are going to drill a hole, probably any convienient location along the bottom edge would suffice to at least drain the section. Now that you have cleaned/removed the ball fitting any new water will be inclined to flow out where it's supposed to, but there is likely a rust hole in that tube so additional water may get into the crossmember again. If you determine that things have not deteriorated too far then I might consider trying to insert a smaller diameter tube through the existing one and adapting under the dash so as to avoid having to replace the current rusted tube. These are actually welded to the inner and outer skins of the crossmember so removal is difficult. In my case a little digging around the initial rust spot revealed that the rust was much more extensive than it first appeared and I ended up doing major surgery, replacing the whole crossmember and some of the floor area on the passenger side. I was only able to do this because I had the engine out of the car. The box section running under the floor is of a thicker gauge than the crossmember so I was able to salvage it, though it had rusted through to the interior floor area. After all the welding was finished I injected undercoating into the crossmember and box sections to slow any further oxidation of the surfaces I couldn't replace.
The most discouraging aspect of this job was the fact that I had been shown the rust area under the drain tube by the previous owner, who stated that it was the only rust he was aware of and I told myself "that's no big deal" and only discovered a couple of years later, that it was a much bigger issue than it had appeared.
Still it's all fixable.... I purchased a new crossmember from K&K, though it was an OEM part anyway, at reasonable cost and my son and I had a great bonding experience making the repairs. It helps that he's a mechanical engineer with a machinist certificate and wrote his thesis on new welding techniques, but only a little  
Don't be discouraged...it's all part of the mystique of owning these lovely little gems and the thrill of driving them makes it all worth while. At least all the parts are available.

[German Dude]

James,
where in Germany are you located? Have you been living in Germany for a long time? Are you acquainted with parts suppliers etc?

I bought my Pagoda three years ago and brought it from Texas to Germany. I had no problems at all to get it "TUEV"-ED -  without a single seat belt. The car still doesn't have any and it passed the bi-annual text this April without problems.

What I am saying is that no two TUEV-Stations are the same - a car which does not pass the test here may pass it there.

Let me know if you are interested to get in touch with me. Maybe I can  be of assistance.

Best,

Juergen



Juergen
64 230SL #2933, 4sp, signal red, white hard top
2000 320 CDI Station Wagon

[mdsalemi]

quote: The car failed on the following points:

1) Headlights (no surprises there, since it still has the US ones that put out about as much light as 2 tired glow worms in a dark jar)
2)registration (licence plate) lights in op.
3)Excessive play in the steering relay & lower swivel bearings
4)Coroded drivers side floor panel (known to me - this has been bodged over the years and must be cut out and replaced - the carpet was SOAKING after being shipped from the US and water appears there each day despite now being garaged; I have no idea where it's coming from)
5)Excessive play in LH read shock lower mount
6)RH (and LH almost) shocks unservicable
7)No 3 point harness
8)Centre exhaust bracket missing (again, known and is a result of the new exhaust being put on incorrectly - it will have to be cut off and re-welded)

James,

Perhaps you know all this already but here goes anyway--

1)  You can obtain, at great cost, OEM Euro headlights.  These are available from some suppliers, and sometimes on eBay.  They are not cheap.  An alternative is to fit Hella, Cibie or others into the 7" US sealed beam sockets.  These typically use H4? bulbs or brighter, and cost in the USA seems to be around $50 each.  Here's what I'm talking about:

http://www.autobahnpower.com/products.asp?recnumber=422

2)  License plate light is a quick and easy fix.  I bet the sockets are corroded.

3) and 5) Excessive play.  I believe you can find tolerances for this in one of the specification books.  If it is indeed out of tolerance, consider your failure a blessing in disguise; it will force proper repair to specification.

6)  Replace the shocks.  Do all 4 of them.  Who wants to ride around on parts that are past their service life?  We have these cars for fun driving, right?  Can't be fun when the shocks are shot.  While Bilsteins are standard, Jim Villers of our group, and Pete Lesler too, have sworn by Koni adjustables.  Not something to run out and replace if your shocks are good, but if yours are not, consider this an opportunity.

7)  Contact me off line, I have the MB Technical Bulletin to fit 3-point retractables using MB parts to your car.  It's a bit of work, but it can be done.  It's a large file I might have to mail it to you.

4) and Sadly and expensively you know what you need to do here...

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[jameshoward]

I am indebted to your for your interest and assistance: (There is a question at the end of this post that one could skip to - it's about the heater core!!!)

Michael - thank you for your kind offer. In light of what Juergen says I will do a little more home work on the TUV chaps and their rule book, but I have a question and will e-mail you. Thank you for the advice on the shocks - I will do all 4. Incidentally, the car is down on the drivers side, so there may be more to it than just shocks. (God forbid). Springs, I guess?? The licence plate is my excuse for not doing anything around the house tomorrow. I'll let you know how I get on.

Juergen - I'll contact you off line.

Ricardo - thanks. If your son would like to do some post grad work, he and his welding device are most welcome to stay over Christmas. I have a lot of good wine he can drink in his few hours off each day! I'll let you know if I decide to drill, and where. As you will see below, it's all rather confusing trying try to trace the water.

Today's tinkerings were good and bad; probably good on balance.

I used the advice given earlier and on hours of searches throughout the site to track the route of water that enters the area of the firewall. The drivers side was easy (I just had to look up) and I removed the cardboard panels on the passenger side to expose the pipes. The photos show what I found:



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As you can see, the passengers side was fine perfect (it is also the very dry side of the car) and a highlight of the day was finding what to the untrained eye appears to be some of the original firewall pad (yes??) - anyway, it cheered me greatly. The drivers side, however, was utterly shot. It was also blocked with fluff amongst other things (small woodland creatures, light aircraft, etc) and so I can't imagine - given the amount of water in the drivers side footwell - that the water came in through that route. I say that because I then went on to remove the air scoop (I'll throw in scuttlebox to help others' searches) and found that the area was dry; almost dusty. I have attached 2 not great photos of the drainage holes in the firewall:



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To reiterate, the firewall was not wet. I am therefore still at a bit of a loss as to quite how so much water entered the car. At some stage during the day, I put my hand behind the drivers seat and was rewarded with a wet palm. I had stupidly forgotten to check the rear of the seat. This is what I found:



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This was a low point, but hardly unexpected. It's all got to be replaced anyway.

If anyone is still reading this, I have a question that follows from my investigation of the air scoop. There is a metal flap which appears as though it should sit at the back of the heater core - there are some holes in the flap - which is the length of the core exactly - but there don't seem to be any holes in the core, although there are marks that correspond with these holes. I attach a really bad photo. To try to explain it better, the top of the photo is where the rear of the air scoop sits, just forward of the windscreen. A lever can also be seen in the photo - this is one of the 2 that open and close the area of the heater core to allow warm air into the cab (I assume!) The reason that I think my dodgy plate should be affixed to the rear (facing towards the back of the car) of the core is that without it, warm air will always enter the cab. So, my question is: HOW DO I AFFIX IT?



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[bpossel]

Hello James,

Please read this post:
http://index.php?topic=6028
I found my plate loose as well.  I simply removed it and will save it for a future day when I pull my heater core.
Good luck with your project!
These are fun cars to work on and drive!
Bob


bpossel  (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL  /  '97 E320

[Ricardo]

James
Well I've got my fingers crossed for you...maybe all the water came through the perished rubber. Water would normaly not flow into the scuttlebox while the car is stationary. With high winds or driving  in the rain a lot of water can get in, that's why they have two 5/8' I.D. hoses to drain it away. I'd be feeling good with your discovery except for the noted sloshing sound, yet to be found. I kind of hate to do this but I'm going to post a couple of shots of what can be found here. These are digital photos of 35mm prints (pre digital camera days a lifetime ago   )so the quality is wanting, but you get the idea. Also the vent flap is certainly a factor in the drenched floor and again if the car was driven in heavy rain, much more water would end up getting past the skewed flap than normal and into the interior chambers of the heater box.
There are a few of us here with "known" floor issues and obviously the floors are usually the worst, as effort is spent keeping the exterior looking good, floors are ignored. Some of us even live with sub-par floors, planning to some day get around to it, but still catching all the smiles over all those miles (about 25,000 in 6 years).....the parts are all available, including patch and repair panels...it's just steel
Congradulations on taking the plunge....I envy you because I remember how the first few weeks were such a heady time...mostly exciting and only occasionally discouraging, a bit like falling in love  
I'll pass on the invite to Nigel, but I suspect he'd rather stay in his new home with his new 2 month old daughter and have his family come stay with him for christmas  



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[hands_aus]

Hey James
Have you looked in the space under the shelf behind the seats?
If the rear seals to the top leak it is possible that water could enter though the soft top well area.
Maybe a quick look under the rubber mat in the boot too.

Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto

[jameshoward]

Bob,

Thanks for your post - I went down to the car today specifically to identify where from where the water comes. The car only has a soft top, which I have not yet touched and having read many many threads here about tops getting stuck, I am glad I resisted the temptation to put it down - I have no doubt I would have got it truly stuck. Anyway, I removed the wooden floor panels expecting the worst but they are bone dry and show no signs of ever having been wet - not lately at least. (I am happy about this). I then felt the next place to examine was the soft top box. I WD-40'd the hinges and joints yesterday in preparation as I have no idea when it was last lowered. Today I pulled on the handle and lo - it's not connected to anything! It just merrily swings about.

I had a look through the rear of the trunk and can see that the bolt on the end of the lever seems almost off its thread. I've searched on the site and have found this post:

http://index.php?topic=5681,top,release,broken

I will try to move the latch in the centre of the box over tomorrow. (Grateful if anyone else has any ideas!)

So, the search has come to a halt as I could not continue until I'd searched this most excellent site for what to do about the release lever. And I found the info here. Tomorrow I'll give it a go.

BTW, the rear license plate problem was nothing more complicated than a broken bulb! (Although both of the glass covers are shattered, which seems odd - I'll add those to the list).

GERMAN DUDE - I've sent you an e-mail - let me know if you got it.

James

[rob walker]

James, some number plates light glasses on Ebay UK today, sourcing from Germany.
270070084602

Rob Walker

1968 280SL papyrus white/green leather
2004 230 SLK silver

[J. Huber]

I can share another useful place to look for rust. Remove the kick panels and take a peek in there. You can usually spot trouble in the sill/front rocker area.

James
63 230SL

[jameshoward]

Todays main effort was to free the soft top box cover, which I managed to do with the loss of only 3 fingers, a socket and my sense of humour (twice). The directions on this site on pushing the bolt of the release mechanism to the drivers side using a screw driver put through the acccess hole in the soft top box worked very well. However, I then had to hook some strong polytwine around the mechanism and pull VERY VERY hard to release the side latches. I have now fixed the release lever and have used a split washer to prevent a reoccurance. I have also made the poly twine a permanent feature - just in case.

Once inside the soft top box, all seemed immaculate. I found the drainage holes and gave them a run through. I then injected some water into each to see where the water flowed. It dripped out from the sills (rocker panels) by the rear jacking point. No water came into the footwell of the car. This is good as it means that the drainage tubes are reasonably fuctionable at least. But, I am no where nearer finding out where the water come from (I can't believe that the water entered through the floor, although there are numerous holes in there miss their gromets, etc. Unless it rains from the floor up in the US and whilst on ships to Europe. Or it came in through the roof, about which...)

Having finally released the hood, I felt it was time to try and fold it into the soft top box. Again, I read all the threads I could find and there was much good advice about using belts. (See photos below - I will spare you the one of me, trousers at ankles).

The hood folds OK, but I cannot get to a point where I could reasonably get it into the soft top box with a view to closing the cover. I've read the threads about CPR maneuvers and I take Tom's point that these cars were designed by Ze Germans and so we shouldn't need to stand on the cover to close it. I have therefore posted a few photos of my hold in the as-good-as-folded position in the hope that some kind fellow can spot the obvious mistake I'm making. FYI, the hood is made by Kal-Glass (no idea whether they're any good or not) and has numerous rips to the right top where it has caught in the frame a lot - almost one rip per bow. Please tell me what I'm doing wrong or how I can get a quart into a pint pot!

I also have to repair the tears as a new roof is not in the budget. Do I need to get the repair vulcanized, as the roof seems to be made of a canvas-type material?

Thanks,

James



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