230 vs 250 vs 280sl

What would you prefer and why?

Most replies will reflect the preference for the car owned by the person replying. We always like to justify our own choice.

But like to think I have reasonable and rational reasons for my preference. Keep in mind I'm not a motorhead so the mechanical differences aren't too important to me.

My car is a 280SL and my previous car was a 280SL. I prefer the 280SL because 280's are younger cars and have the benefit of all the production changes over the years.

Just to name a few: the fuel injector on the earlier cars has a dip stick and an oil port. This was eliminated on the 280. Also the ignition on some later cars is electronic. The seat shape and carpeting were improved (my word) in the later cars; trunk light installed, better markings for dash switches, one piece hub caps.  

These are not really significant and my friends who drive a 230SL all love their cars to the max.

The differnces are not so great that one would reject a car simply because its a 230SL. They're all beauties and wonderful cars.

Richard M, NYC 1960 280SL

Let me add the following to Richard's otherwise astute and spot-on assessment:

 

•  
The 280SL is arguably a bit easier to restore because the parts are a bit easier to get; some parts are only available in "later" designs or models, i.e. 280SL.  This isn't a global assessment, but only applies to some specific parts.  As we all know a lot of the parts are common.
•  
Some parts, notably the engine internals, and a bit more expensive on the 230SL versus the 280SL, or more properly the M127 vs. the M130 engines.
• Some prefer an all disk brake car; this goes along with Richard's statement that the 280SL had the improvements that MB learned on the 230SL.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America

Let me just add my observations from owning a 230SL and a 280SE W111. The 230SL is a little short on torque so if you desire an automatic car I would choose the 280SL. The 230SL engine is a little noisier and feels a little more "cammy" so it feels quite sporty with a manual transmission, quite different in character in my opinion.

Other than that its as Michael and Richard state, although I actually prefer the more dainty fixtures on the early car, the door locks, sun visor hinges etc....

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'68 280SE Coupe W111

Sammy,

As a dealer, you may want to stick to the 280 SL, as you have in the past. I think you'll find there's a larger market for the later cars, particularly if they're equipped with automatic and a/c.



Douglas Kim
New York
USA

Tssk, tssk. Well, had to get a pro-230 in here somewhere...

of course, Richard is correct, most of us tend to believe the one we have is the preferred model. I also agree with Douglas and Mike that there seems to be a premium for the later models and parts are more readily available...

But here it comes. Personally, I like having an early Euro car. I think they most purely represent the new breed of SLs. (whatever that means...) I like the more plentiful brightwork and and the crisper dash lines. Again, personal preference based mostly on experience -- but I also like having no power steering and no A/C. More car, less stuff. This and the Euro cam with a 3.75 rear-end make mine the best   ...


PS -- the money you save not having to work around the A/C generally pays for the higher cost of parts...


James
63 230SL

I agree with all that has been said.  For me, I chose a 230 for two simple reasons: (1) more bang for the buck and (2) I think the trim and appointments on the 230 are a little more elegant than those on the 280.  If I buy another, it will likely be a 280, just for the sake of a different experience.  And next time I'd choose an automatic, since the first time around I did not even consider anything but a manual, mainly because I (incorrectly) thought that the automatic was substandard, so to speak.

Mike

I have some difficulty with the use of "automatic" and "A/C" being used in conjunction with "sports car" Maybe a DSG type automated gear changing but automatic... Love to know what percentage of 'automatics' were sold in USA as compared to the rest of the world.

Garry Marks
Australia
69 280SL Manual
02 320ML
05 A200

It realy depends on what you want. Owning a 230 4 speed and having driven a 280 4speed, a 280 automatic, My first preferance would not be for the model but rather the transmission. I would prefer a 5 speed! After that a 4 speed. To mee automatic and sports cars do not belong together....but I respect my friends opinions who prefer the automatic. After that the condition of the car and its drive train is most likely far more important than the model. A newer car with lots of rust will be far more expensive to restore than an older one that is well preserved.

Daryl
'64 230 SL Buckeye Benz Scarlet interior and Grey top Serial # 508
'77 280SE

There's that "sports car" thing again!  While subject to opinion and debate of course--it may be a 2 seater like most sports cars, and may be a drop-top like most sports cars, but it is more accurately described as a touring car.  My own opinion is that it simply didn't or doesn't have the same characteristics as other cars of the period that are called sports cars without debate--MG-B, Austin Healy, Porsche 356/911, Aston-Martin DB5, Jaguar E-Type, etc.  Personally I think its main defining characteristic is unparalleled beauty in a package that does nothing exceedingly well, (acceleration, handling, braking) but simply does it all right and appropriately for what it is.  One thing it does exceedingly well is carry two people in class, style and elegance not found in many cars.  It is, in my opinion, moving, beautiful, sculpture.

For those newcomers that that have not heard this before, I was in a circle of 10 Collectible post-1955 sports cars at the Meadowbrook Concours in 2006.  Last big block Corvette, pristine E-Type, very rare BMW 507, perfect Daimler 250, rare Porsche Carrera, etc.  All of these cars were probably well over $200K in value, and all show-queens.  Which car did EVERYONE stop and have their picture taken in front of?  The Pagoda.  It was astounding, and annoying to the other owners!!  As I said, unparalleled beauty.  Some of those other cars won prizes and were fawned upon by the judges--but not by the people.  The people preferred the Pagoda.  Also, when I go to the finest restaurant here in Michigan, when I drive my Pagoda up to the valet at the front door, they will and have pushed away new 7-series, new Ferraris, new SL-class, new Bentleys, etc. to leave the Pagoda proudly in front.  When the car gets that kind of reaction, combined with the reaction it gets at Concours, who the heck cares about that extra 500 RPM at highway speed, or whether or not a Porsche will outperform it?  Not me!

For those that insist on shifting, the automatic provides you the ability to do this albeit without the need to move your left foot.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America

I had a dark blue 230SL with 4-speed when I was younger and now have a red 280SL with automatic. Mike Salemi is right: I bought these cars because they look so nice and drive just fine. I also had a Jaguar roadster, so I know the difference. The Mercedes suits me just fine: It drives like I like to drive and has plenty of power for me. I did install a 3.27 rear axle. It makes a much nicer driving car on the freeways. I was unhappy with the automatic because the up-shift 2-3 was rough. It shifts very nice now. So, what would be my choice? I'd look at the overall condition of the vehicle. Rust is a no-no. But if I had to choose between two brand new vehicles, I'd take the 280SL with automatic and AC. I like the power steering and the all-around disk brakes. The seats are softer too. Well - I'm spoiled. Oh - while we are at it: I'd recommend a s/s exhaust system. On my 230SL I had the factory exhaust and it rusted out in 30,000 miles. It's impossible to take apart after a few years. The stainless system I have now still comes apart fairly easily and shows no signs of corrosion, just soot.

'69 280SL,Signal Red,Automatic,retired engineer, West-Seattle,WA

Michael,

Very well put!  It reminds me of what someone said about sailboats: "they may not be a fast as a power boat, but what an elegant way to go"

Somewhere on the main page there should be a section called "Why a Pagoda" with your response underneath.

Pete S.

quote:Originally posted by mdsalemi
Also, when I go to the finest restaurant here in Michigan, when I drive my Pagoda up to the valet at the front door, they will and have pushed away new 7-series, new Ferraris, new SL-class, new Bentleys, etc. to leave the Pagoda proudly in front.  When the car gets that kind of reaction, combined with the reaction it gets at Concours, who the heck cares about that extra 500 RPM at highway speed, or whether or not a Porsche will outperform it?  Not me!

Each day this week my wife has been attending an all-day business training course at a nearby hotel.  I have dropped her off at the main entrance each morning at o'dark-thirty.  Each morning that I have driven her in our 300D the door men have just stood there as she alighted.  Yesterday morning I drove her in the 230SL instead.  Three door men rushed to the car.  One opened the door, one took her tote-bag of notebooks, the third one handed her out of the car!  Queen for a day!

- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
  1966 230SL Auto P/S
  Havanna Brown (408)
  Light Beige (181)
  Cream M-B Tex (121)

Ah, Mr. Hughes...you AND your wife know precisely what I mean...

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America

Just a quick confirmation of Mike's point about elegance and beauty.

Drove up to the Water's Edge, a toney Manhattan restaurant along the East River...has customer parking in the rear.

When I got out of the 280 SL, the Parking Attendant came over and asked, "Will it be OK if we leave your car parked in front of the restaurant?

"Sure", I said, "Why do you want it here?"

"It's a beauty and it will make the place look classy."

Richard M, NYC

These cars are awsome and do draw a lot of comments. Even sans windsheild, bumpers, grill and trim on the way to the paint shop, I received a lot of positive attention.

Call me evil, BUT next year I am driving it to the BMW dealer to participate in the drive for the cure! Let thos folks see the beauty of a Pogoda compared to a Z4

Daryl
'64 230 SL Buckeye Benz Scarlet interior and Grey top Serial # 508
'77 280SE

Is that hood ornament factory or NAPA?

quote:Originally posted by theengineer

I had a dark blue 230SL with 4-speed when I was younger and now have a red 280SL with automatic. Mike Salemi is right: I bought these cars because they look so nice and drive just fine. I also had a Jaguar roadster, so I know the difference. The Mercedes suits me just fine: It drives like I like to drive and has plenty of power for me. I did install a 3.27 rear axle. It makes a much nicer driving car on the freeways. I was unhappy with the automatic because the up-shift 2-3 was rough. It shifts very nice now. So, what would be my choice? I'd look at the overall condition of the vehicle. Rust is a no-no. But if I had to choose between two brand new vehicles, I'd take the 280SL with automatic and AC. I like the power steering and the all-around disk brakes. The seats are softer too. Well - I'm spoiled. Oh - while we are at it: I'd recommend a s/s exhaust system. On my 230SL I had the factory exhaust and it rusted out in 30,000 miles. It's impossible to take apart after a few years. The stainless system I have now still comes apart fairly easily and shows no signs of corrosion, just soot.

'69 280SL,Signal Red,Automatic,retired engineer, West-Seattle,WA

Glenn, Pete, and others.

I too, was [visually] disturbed by the hood ornament, not only as a disturbance but also because of Pete's advanced age [which HE is always joking about] having a "DEAD END" sign was completely inappropriate.  Therefore I present the revised version.




Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America

Mike: This is wonderful! I actually never noticed the "hood ornament". Now - I don't like the face of the driver at all. Can you change that to make me younger & better looking? And maybe 20 pounds less? Don't change the car - it's alright.

quote:Originally posted by theengineer

Mike: This is wonderful! I actually never noticed the "hood ornament". Now - I don't like the face of the driver at all. Can you change that to make me younger & better looking? And maybe 20 pounds less? Don't change the car - it's alright.

Actually and seriously Pete, I believe I can!  Email me the high res version off line and I'll give it a go--seriously.  I have the manual!

Note: The FIRST thing I saw in that photo was DEAD END.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America

I do hope that Jonny B is reading this topic.
It would make a nice Pagoda Group Newsletter, save you a lot of time and most importantly put a smile on every readers face!  
Just reprint it in toto, but at least Mike Salemi's "Ode to Joy" - I mean ".. to Pagodas".

Alfred
1966 blue 230SL automatic

Gee... why are the choices only limited to a 230SL or 280SL? In point of fact there's the venerable early & late 250SL's which reflect in verying degrees combinations of both.  

There are for example, several features of the 280SL I don't like at all --- one piece wheels, for example.. a cost reduction item taken from the sedan's.  The US DOT safety items for US export models forced the entire 280SL series to make the accomodating changes to several features ---- interior rear view mirror no longer chromed... no more visor mirror on the passenger side, modifications to the door handles, locks, and window cranks toned down and modified, hardtop handles now stored away instead of remaining with the hard-top, are just some of these changes.  

I also don't like the sagging type door pocket on the 280SL's.... nor the all black heater/air control's --- no longer blue, red, clear ones which light up nicely when lights are on (if you've paid attention to the light bulbs inside the control unit).  Of course, I also quite prefer the E-type's original toggle switches in the models before the '68's changed them ---- same reason as the 280SL... US Dot rules changed.... covered head light openings, and a host of other cosmetic items that were modified to the detriment of the E-type, imo, in '68 and even more-so beyond '68... of course I prefer the synchro in 1st gear, better seats, & deeper footwells in the later models but preceeding '68's.    

I also don't like the side-light's on the later 250SL's and 280SL's which imo,take away from the clean lines ... interupting the visual appeal, and which feature was another of the US DOT safety related changes required.... though Italien export models required side reflectors much earlier... in '66 at least, if not even earlier ... so the Italian importers / dealers had to install the gov't mandated form --- little round ones a'la Fiat's in fact. ... unlit reflectors.

I hate the bumper guards, which were another of the '68 model year mandated US DOT requirements... not required on the '67 model year cars... nor incorporated into the 250SL's until late in the '67 build.  I hated them when they were introduced due to the DOT rules in '68 and I hate them now, and if they were something of beauty then they would have endured thru time... but as we all know the public (US & of course Europe's) hated them, & the automobile industry found other ways eventually to meet the DOT rules without these awful looking 'bumper' guards.    

The early '67 250SL's incorporated the trunk lights, kept most of or all of the interior cosmetic items that were in the 230SL's, had no sidelights, but made all the major changes in the suspensions and engine compartment, & drive-train that modernized the driving performance and reliability found in the 250SL and 280SL's.  Beginning July 12,'67 many of the US Dot changes were incorporated into the 250SL (which were the same as the 280SL's later), and toward the end of the year all the cosmetic changes and other interior features found in the 280SL were incorporated in the 250SL's... except the engine itself.  

The 250SL engine was a complete modification of the 230SL's... which didn't add to the hp, but increased the torque slightly...while dramatically improving the high speed reliability.... a factor not quite necessary in the US where speed limits limited long duration high speed's to about 80 - 85 mph ... certainly under 90, 99.999% of the time.  The 280SL's displacement was required to achieve the competetively demanded higher hp, but nearly all of this added displacement and hp was for US export models of no added value due to the added smog requirements placed on the US models.... which robbed most of the added displacement's advantage for US export models.... not so for the European models as the smog requirements weren't required.  The '67 250SL's didn't have those smog requirements, so the entire model year didn't have to incorporate them... unlike the '68 model year requirements... hence the 280SL engine displacement was to satisfy the increasing revenue from the US export market for Mercedes while also satisfying the European demand for more hp in the competetive market.  Net hp at the rear wheels was not that much improved over the 250SL in US export models... improved, but not by the proportion of difference in displacement due to the mandated added smog requirements.

There were many, many other mechanical component design changes that ensued in '65, '66 230SL's and which became standard beyond those years in the 250SL and 280SL series... and many more which began with the 250SL (all around disks, for just one difference) remained constant thru the 280SL series.  So... most of the learning done on the 230SL's over the years were modified accordingly by design and introduced into the 250SL... and didn't change with the 280SL.

The 250SL was a transition model year... where-in almost all the mechanical changes were made in the very start of the 250SL's and that were used in the 280SL's... and the cosmetic & DOT required changes were introduced over the course of the 250SL's production in phases after July 12,'67 mfg'ing dates beginning with chassis #2980.

So why is the question limited to the choice of 230SL and 280SL only? Seems like there's a considerable lack of appreciation for the features of the 250SL that in fact have most of the best features of the 230SL, and incorporated most if not all the mechanical changes that went into the later 280SL's, except the engine itself... and left out all the ugly DOT safety mandated requirements that applied to the '68 model year US imports.

If I offended those who really like bumper guards, one piece wheel covers, sagging side pockets, black interior mirrors, black heater control wheels, side marker lights, etc. please don't take it personally... I only intend to illustrate the differences that matter to me.... and why I find the 250SL to be the best of both worlds... my rationalizations.
 
BTW, all the brightwork changes that made there way into the later '67 250SL's and all 280SL's were due to US DOT safety mandated rules for '68 model years for reflections... and of course these were also cost reductions for Mercedes (chrome plating being relatively more expensive on the items that were formerly brightwork). All of the other interior cosmetic changes made in the 280SL were for cost reduction reasons.... the black heater control wheels for example.... which also improved their long term reliability since the prior ones (colored plastic) were prone to have the little handle break off... and replacement of one of these wheels was an expensive labor proposition (passed on of course to the consumer if they broke after the warrenty period ... and none broke (nearly none) prior to that).... sagging door pockets for another example.

The above reasons (all) are why I hate to see the early (pre July 07'67) 250SL's mfg'ing dated chassis bite the dust.  There were only
2979 of these 250SL's made in total prior to introduction of the several mandated US DOT requirements (which went into all production SL's)... out of a total of 5196 250SL's... of which US Export's were only 1761, or ~33%.  If that proportion is also true for the pre DOT changed 250SL's (starting with chassis # 2980) on July 12, then there were only 1009 of these 250SL's exported to US... no more than 20% of all 250SL's produced. ...and of all models (230SL's, 250SL's and 280SL's) the pre-2980 Chassis number 250SL's represent only 6% of all W113's built (48,882 total W113's produced).

That 6% of W113's production represents imo, the best of both breeds in one car.

Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
'02 SL500 Sport

T. E.,  Much better!   A 1970 Pagoda?  Get one of your 'face' pictures from 1970 and paste it in.  70 car and a 70 face.  Good time travel.

quote:Originally posted by theengineer

Mike: This is wonderful! I actually never noticed the "hood ornament". Now - I don't like the face of the driver at all. Can you change that to make me younger & better looking? And maybe 20 pounds less? Don't change the car - it's alright.

Hear Hear...eloquently put, if a little long winded...
Perhaps a declaration of "best of the best" should follow all postings by owners of early 250's....

Ricardo
'67 250sl #1854
Best of the Best!

Well, Longtooth--you know there are opinions all over the board.

Personally, I prefer the bumper guards as that was what my car has and was delivered with.  I realize they may offer little protection, but without them, you have one very expensive piece of decorative chrome, without a whit of cushion, being the recipient of anything your car plows into or backs into (or gets from surrounding drivers!)  The guards are certainly no 5 MPH bumpers but they do offer a bit of protection albeit at a cost that visually disturbs some people.  Look at what either a repair/rechrome or replace costs.  I wouldn't take mine off for anything.

I like the amber tail lamps.  Today, a good deal of drivers on the road were not even BORN when amber directionals became the norm.  They are not used to seeing red directionals.  I don't want to be the one confusing them.  I'll have my ambers, thank you very much.

I like illuminated side markers--just like I like trucks to have lights all over the place on all their corners.  It's a safety issue.  "Lights on for safety" my wife reminds me.  I'll keep mine.

I happen to really like my one piece wheel covers.  I think they offer a more modern and clean look.  The two piece, in my opinion, look better on the 190SL.

I don't even know of all the changes of what you speak, but my guess is they don't really bother a lot of 280SL owners.  Since they bother you, however, you indeed have the best car for your needs.

Nobody has ever looked at my car and indicated the bumper overriders, or the side markers, visually disturbed them!  They may have THOUGHT of it, but they never said anything!

You make all good points about the differences and I can easily see (even if I don't agree) how one could prefer the factory made improvements on the 250SL versus the DOT mandated changes to the 280SL.

However I have to ask the question: of all our 250SL owners, how many consciously knew of all of this that Longtooth brings forth, and sought out and bought the 250SL (over earlier 230's and later 280's)versus just happening to find the right car at the right time and right price, and NOW KNOW of these things?  Before you became a W113 owner, did you make decisions about the 280SL's mandated changes and intentionally sought a 250?  Did you examine the 230 and decide you wanted the improvements that a 250 offered?  How exactly did you come to own the 250 versus the 230/280?

I don't know the answers, but I do think that the 250's owners have a cult item.  Maybe the market does not recognize it yet.  Maybe they know things we don't?

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America