Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: Radek on December 24, 2009, 08:50:58
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Hi,
My name is Radek and I am an MB W123 owner and big enthusiast of cars at all. I decided to write to you because I have a problem with identification of the one of MB cars which picture I attached.
I think it is a prototype of W113 but I am not sure. Any suggestion would be great.
Best regards,
Radek
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More of a 107 than a 113?
naj
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Photoshopped Triumph Stag?
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There is a picture of this car in the book "Mercedes-Benz 190 SL - 280 SL Vom Barock zur Pagode" by Gunter Engelen. The book is in German but on page 191 there is a picture from the front. My best translation is that the car was a design exercise for a successor to the 230 SL by Friedrich Geigers in 1967. The picture of the front is dated 7. 3. 67.
If you want me to scan the pictures and German notation please PM me with an e-mail address where I can send it.
Norm
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Anything dated 1967 is certainly not a prototye of a W113. We all know the W113 design was pretty much set by 1963 and in production in 1964.
It looks very much like a modernization exercise, perhaps with elements that would later appear in the R107.
Mr. Bracq sent me many photos over the years of design exercises that he did for the W113 in 1960-1962. I posted one before (and again here, the color one dated 1960), and here is another. I should note that the Engelen book barely, if at all, gives mention to Paul Bracq. I should also mention it is one of the ONLY books about SL's that does not mention him. What I posted below is unsigned (but in M. Bracq's collection) because it is part of a technical illustration. The color renderings are indeed signed and dated. It appears as if the more technical illustrations--those in B&W such as the one posted below, are never signed and are generally part of a several view technical illustrations. They are often followed by a color rendering and those are signed and dated.
I mentioned once before that I have copies of patents for the Pagoda hard top, naming Bela Barenyi and Paul Bracq as co-inventors. One might think that a co-inventor would get a little more credit. I can't read German but I suspect the Engelen book isn't perfect or complete.
Now HERE is a prototype [drawing only of course] of the W113...circa 1960 or so. Can you see the resemblance to the 190SL? It should not be a surprise; Bracq did the V.2 hard top for the 190SL and guess what THIS hard top looks like?
N.B. Knockoffs with "gangsta" white walls...I love it! ;)
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I agree with Peter, It's a Stag.
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No, it is not a "Stag".
Norm identified the car shown in Radek's picture correctly, it has the the same license plate: BB-A 716.
According to Engelen's text the Geiger design in 1967 was indeed a proposal for a successor model to the W113. He just used a 230SL for his mock-up. One modernization design ("Modell IV") for the 280SL that did not go into production is shown on the preceding page.
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It was just my first impression.... and they usually are right! But photoshopping was difficult in 1967!
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Here is the picture in Engelen's book.
(Thanks Peter, your fix worked. I can post pics again ;D)
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Thank You very, very much for your help Norm! Best wishes for all You guys!
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Managed to get the photos uploaded. See previous post on the thread.
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Hi, it's me - Radek - again.
I come with another question: what can you guys say about this interior?
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Hi, it's me - Radek - again.
I come with another question: what can you guys say about this interior?
That there is no steering wheel :o .
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I don't see any indication it is a MB, although it looks like it was taken from the Polish MB website. ??? I can't see MB putting controls behind the steering wheel, very impractical. :P
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I don't see any indication it is a MB, although it looks like it was taken from the Polish MB website. ??? I can't see MB putting controls behind the steering wheel, very impractical. :P
Yes, this picture is from polish MB web site! we have a Trivia game - so I am looking for answer. For sure it is an MB vehicle - but question is which one. Now, look at the plate under the clock - you can see there (removed in Paint) space for model designation! Just like in this 190 SL. I think that picture comes form some book like the previous pic of prototype of W113 came from. Does anyone know answer?
Best regards,
Radek
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To me it also looks like a facelift of the 113 or perhaps an early design study for the 107 - I can see why some people mention the Triumph Stag - a funny anecdote is, that Triumph actually purchased a Pagoda and dismantled it completely to get the inspiration for the Stag - it would be quite ironic (and unlikely) if Mercedes did the opposite later on while designing the 107.
The Stag, by the way, could have been a great car if British Leyland hadn't been in such turmoil at that time, if US legislation hadn't threatened to ban convertibles (hence the ungainly t-bar) and if their engineers hadn't stubbornly refused to use the existing (Buick-derived) 3,5 V8 instead of welding to Dolomite-engines together...
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Re second question, looks to me like a developmental prototype 220S/300S Coupe [fixed hardtop] of the mid to late 1950's
Could also have been a special one off by a specialist coachbuilder.
All control knobs, rear vision mirrow, winscreen wipers, ash tray look to be pure 1950's MB. Lever on glove box suggest links to the 300SL