Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: jameshoward on June 06, 2010, 12:07:40
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I'm trying to disassemble a 3,46 rear axle so it can be sent off for powder coating and then eventually put onto my car to replace a 4,08. The latest problem is that I cannot get the bush off the pin - it just will not budge. I've attached a photo to show what I mean. Before I resort to cutting it (which could take a while...) I wondered if anyone else had any bright ideas?
Thanks,
James
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James
not sure if this link will help
It is the exploded diagram of the rear axle parts.
http://www.sls-hh-shop.de/index.php/cat/c3_Mercedes-Benz-230SL-250SL-280SL-Pagoda--R113-W113-.html/XTCsid/f5cf1c3959c4fbe75850d2dc0fb99eba#cat_68
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Hi Merrill,
Many thanks. I don't know how many times I've looked at that blow-up but clearly I haven't paid any attention to it as, viewing it again, I can clearly see that the slip collar thing is part of the bush!! ::)
So that means that my bush is just stuck fast on the pin, as feared.
Still holding out for a top tip of how to remove the thing before resorting to violence and cutting discs.
JH
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Oxy acetylene torch, get it red hot, it will come off.
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I'm having a tough time visualizing exactly what point you've got to here. I can tell you though when I did my rear axle a few months back, I had to drive the pin out of the axle and the pin came out with the rear bush intact. I then used a press to remove it from the pin. To replace with new bushes, I used dry ice on the pin to shrink it.. The bushes will slip right on this way. I left a post elsewhere in the forum on how to do this. You need to be careful when driving the pin in or out. It is very easy to "mushroom" the end making it impossible to remove or replace the bushes. Ask me how I know! Try the dry ice trick. It is amazing how much it will shrink that heavy pin!
Hope this helps
George Desiderio
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Thanks for the replies.
I didn't think that oxy acetylene would work because I'd effectively be heating the collar of a metal that surrounds the rubber bush and so would act as an excellent insulator. It's the inner collar that is preventing the thing from moving. Perhaps if I cut off the outer collar, remove the rubber and then heat the inner collar it may come off? I only have a burner, not a torch.
George, Naj has mentioned using a drift of some sort to knock the pin out and I'll give it a go. I think that the problem is that the axle is in such a state that the corrosion is pretty advanced. That goes for the pin, too.
But I'm going to have another go at the weekend.
James
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Hi James,
Please be careful when you hit the pin because, as George says, it's very easy to damage. At first I left the bolt in but then damaged the threads so took the bolt out and then damaged the end. Thankfully I was able to have the threads re tapped and the end turned so it was OK but only just, try using a piece of hardwood. The best approach is to cut the bushing with a hacksaw or dremel to expose a bit of the pin then let it soak in penetrating oil as it's just a push fit. If you can cut it enough then that may well release it to come straight off.
Best of luck
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Taking another look at this, I'm thinking now that the dremel tool with an abrasive wheel--the fiberglass reinforced one-may be the way to best approach to this. Just be careful. You may be able to split the bushing with a chisel after to you cut through it a way. The rubber bushing piece is not that expensive to replace and you may want to that do anyway as part of a full rebuild. I replaced this part, the pin and both bushings as part of my rebuild and it wasn't outrageously expensive to do so. I do suggest the dry ice technique on the re-assembly. There is a way to put this all together in a sequence that allows the parts to literally slip in together with a minimium amount of driving on the pin and you'll need to fashion a "dummy" pin to hold all the shims and rubber rings properly while you insert the actual pin. I'll need to get back to you on exactly what that sequence is--Ifound it by trial and error and only after I ruined two pins by mushrooming the ends.
George Desiderio
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Hello James,
Why not try removing the pin from the other end,IE remove the circlip and washer from the rear of the pin,remove the clevis pin and using hard wood brush handle(ground to the correct diameter) drive the pin forwards.once you have got the pin and bush out you can press of the rubber assy:
I have just been through this operation and i used the pin from my old axle as a mandrel to keep everything lined up as you remove/refit the assy:
PS to carry out the above you will have to remove the front pinion/oil seal cover, but i think you already have this removed.
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In addition to the tips already given, I'd like to add one more "general" suggestion here:
(Not just for you James, as you are past this point in your disassembly)
After the conical locking pin is carefully knocked out (removed),
you can ease the removal of the sleeve of the upright support off the rubber axle bush.
Do this by removing the two M8 bolts that clamp the sleeve around this rear axle bushing.
Insert two metal sheets (two fairly thick washers will do the trick) and then insert the M8 bolts
in the threaded part of the sleeve ("backwards" in their holes, if you will). By tightening the bolts,
you will now force open the gap in the sleeve, helping the release of the old axle bushing.
/Hans in Sweden
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I agree with graphic66, I would try the heat approach. Most likely you would just need to warm it up. I would not get it red hot so the temper of the metal is not altered. The outer sleeve will warm up first and allow its removal.
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Could this rubber bushing cause drive line chatter when the clutch is being engaged from a stop? I have always had clutch chatter, even after putting in a new clutch plate and throw out.
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Hi, Al,
I hope the bush is not just slightly worn as in the picture :'(
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Hello Al,
Interesting..............................I have not experienced this to bea cause, but I agree with your concern that it could be.
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Thanks everyone, for the tips. I'm going to have another go at this hopefully at the weekend. I'll try heat, and dremels, and drifts and brute force backed up with plenty of ignorance.
I have no idea where to get dry ice in the UK, though. Knowing our government it's probably banned because of some random terrorist links or something. I remember seeing it all over the place when I lived in the US. Never seen it here.
James
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You should be able to find it--dry ice- at an ice cream wholesaler or any food distributor that mails out seafood. Here in the states you can get it at supermarkets like Harris Teeter where it is sold primarily for making carbonated drinks. Also might want to ask around at some engine repair shops since it is coomonly used to replace valve guides when doing a head reconditioning.
George Desiderio
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In the unlikely event that anyone is on line right now and has any bright ideas, I can't get the damn conical locking/ tampered pin out that holds in the pin. Because of the angle and the fact that the other axle half is still attached, I'm having to hit a bar with a hammer using it as a level to knock the pin out. But it WILL NOT move.
Not sure what I'm missing, but I can't see how a paint brush handle would work. I've just broken an expensive half inch thick screw driver.
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Are you talking about number 267 in the attached diagram? Did you remove number 275 nut and 271 lock washer?
You might be better off in the long run if you order a new shaft, number 245 from your local MB dealer they are not that expensive.
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Yes, that's the culprit. Got the bugger off now. I had left the dampener on to protect the oil seal lip where the boot goes from any unintentional knocks. Once I'd removed the whole assembly I was able to get a decent hit on the nut and bolt and it eventually came out after a bit of soaking. It was pretty well stuck in there though.
I now have the axle in two parts, almost ready for shot blasting and coating.
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Are you talking about number 267 in the attached diagram? Did you remove number 275 nut and 271 lock washer?
Another rear axle tip: If this conical pin is really stuck, one can relieve some of the restraining force on it by marking the end
with a chisel tip and then drill a hole of say 6mm dia into the end of the pin... this will weaken pin and allow it to be
knocked out more easily...
For those of you like "280SE guy" that in addition to a W113 Pagoda have a 280SE (W108 or even W109) equipped with a Boge
damper on the rear axle: be careful with it. If you remove it w/o a special tool that restrains its
movement (see in BBB section 32-7) it is likely to leak and become useless when re-mounted...
However, one good thing, the factory (now ZF- Boge) actually refurbishes these devices!
Web is: http://www.zf.com
You can send a mail requesting info (in English if you wish) to Herr Dieter Narres; mailto: dieter.narres@zf.com
and they will send all info about shipping and costs etc.
/Hans in Sweden
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Thanks, Hans. I'm not going to reuse the damper, as I want to use the spring, although I suppose I haven't really thought about why. I just assume that since the car was designed with a spring, a spring is probably all that's called for. I would imagine that the cost or refurbishing a damper is eye-wateringly expensive. A new spring is about 50 euros. I think I may need a new one.
I've decided on trusted advice to take the pumpkin apart and string the whole thing down to learn more about the condition and make it easier to powder coat. I'll tackle the bell housing tomorrow.
I have to say that's it's been a real experience to date. Still can't get the bush off, though. I'll take it to an engineering shop with a press.
JH
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I'm not going to reuse the damper .../... although I suppose I haven't really thought about why - I just assume that since the car was designed with a spring, a spring is probably all that's called for
This is interesting really. No (technical) reason why one can't fit a Boge damper to one's W113 Pagoda... Should prove interesting... But I never heard of
it as a factory option. There was a kit available in order to retro-fit a Boge damper to one's Fintail sedan in the sixties, from Mercedes.
The W111 coupees and cabriolets had them factory installed. This was also true for the sedan W108/109's, when those cars came off the production
line beginning middle of 1965.
I would imagine that the cost or refurbishing a [Boge] damper is eye-wateringly expensive
Well, all is relative... I did one for my 250SE a couple of years back, at ZF, it was less than 400 Euros freight included...
You need to enquire what they charge at present
I do really feel the difference (improvement) of having a Boge installed, compared to the spring I had as a stop-gap.
can't get the bush off, though. I'll take it to an engineering shop with a press
That sounds like a sensible approach James - the forces involved when parts are stuck are considerable, so... please let us hear of your
continuing work with the rear axle!
/Hans in Sweden
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Using a piece of hard wood was for removing pin #245 not cotter pin #267
Cotter pin#267 was removed by removing the retaining nut,remove the spring washer and refit the nut, screwing the nut on until the nut is flush with the end of the cotter pin threads(this stops damage to the cotter pin threads).
Use a length of flat metal, place on the cotter pin nut and hammer about two inches below,well out of way of the axle tube.
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Ah. That would make sense. Tried the flat metal way - ie using a lever + heat (lots) and that didn't work either.
The easiest way to remove the cotter pin - after several hours of trying yesterday - is to remove the compensating spring or damper (if using a donor axle like me) which then gives enough movement between the two halves of the axle to flex it the other way to the position in which it would normally sit were it on the car. With the halves in that position, one is able to use a drift to simply knock out the pin (with the nut on to prevent mushrooming the threads). One should probably remove the boot first and check continually that the angle in which the halves are placed is not too extreme otherwise one risks breaking the lip on which the boot sits = game over.
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Hello,
I try to avoid blasting any mechanical assemblies. That grit just never seems to completely go away and will end up in the mechanism.
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Joe, thanks for your view. That's a bit of a worry. The new axle is a complete mess; it's covered in rust. Everything possible that could have seized to it/rusted, has. Taking this thing apart has been hard work. I don't have the time to wire brush it, as I want to get the axle on and brakes converter (with the valve!) before the September event in Europe. I think I have to shot blast, but I'll pressure wash the thing to death afterwards. I'm hoping to remove all the gears, so it should be just the housing and tubes that go to the shop.
Separately, and more widely, I'm stuck. Again. This time, I can't get the UJ out of the housing/pumpkin and therefore can't get the crown wheel out. (I have removed the 8mm hex bolt, but it still won't shift). I've tried wood levers (all broken) and suspending the housing from an A frame by the UJ and hitting it with a mallet. Failed.
Any other ideas before I take it to the shop (to remove the bearings from the axle stubs that also won't shift no matter how many times we've bang them on wood; soaked, banged again, tried a home made puller, etc).
The good news is that I have lots of photos of the various stages that I've been stuck. I'll be able to write up the best step by stuck step post ever on how not to disassemble a rear axle!
Thanks,
James
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This is what the BBB calls for as a removal tool (for the slip joint):
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_cytuKWu2FZA/TBUNJxaa01I/AAAAAAAAAr4/wrdKSgzmOlY/109_589_00_33_00.jpg)
I made this one up about 10 years (?) ago
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_cytuKWu2FZA/TBUNKOsN7UI/AAAAAAAAAr8/gB6Ucnl82FY/puller.jpg)
280SE Guy
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Perfect!!! Looks like just the ticket - both of them. Any idea where I can get one, as I'm pretty sure my skills and time frame don't stretch to making one up?!!
JH
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You can have your parts soda blasted. This is much less aggressive than shot blast and the soda dissolves in water so you simply wash the parts after they've been blasted and there's no danger of shot contamination.
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Stick,
Thanks. Know anyone around London who offers that, or is it just the case that people who do shot blasting all do soda blasting. I've never heard of it.
Also, I don't suppose you've got that excellent puller in the post, below?
James
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This is what the BBB calls for as a removal tool (for the slip joint)
That is a nice tool...
These fancy special tools that were inventory in accredited M-B workshops, and available to the
service mechanics in the sixties/seventies, always have an attraction for me (tool fetishist...?)
I have a M-B workshop binder set that illustrates this myriad of special tools... Just think how many
of these tools has been scrapped, as the cars gradually disappeared from daily use. I would have liked
to be in a workshop to take my pick, before it all went into the scrap bin :o
I have heard that instructions from M-B were, that the tools must be scrapped, not
sold/given to a general public. At least here in Sweden, this was the case.
Of course, if you have the tool making ability of "280se guy" you're ok anyway ;)
/Hans in Sweden
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Pulling device 109 589 00 33 00 is not the puller for the removal of the U/J,the axle shown above is not from the w113,if it was you would see the U/J extending out of the housing.
I had the same problem and ended up making a simple tool out of flat one inch wide metal (bent to shape) and using threaded bar as the pulling medium.
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Eric,
I don't suppose you have a picture of your device (a bad drawing would serve)? It would save reinventing the wheel, as having spoken to a few engineering shops this is looking like being a home fix!
JH
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Hi James,
If I remember rightly I think I used a slide hammer to remove mine.
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Hello,
I have never really run across a stuck one. Most of the time they just pull out. The tool looks great. The slide hammer idea is a good solution also.
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Hello James,
If you let me have your address i will send you the puller.
Hello Joe,
Yes, they are usually loose after removing the bolt,but if someone has used Loctite on the bolt(it is a long storey and i will tell it in the future) then you do require a puller because the Loctite has migrated around the splines.
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Eric,
I've sent you an instant message. Many thanks for your kind offer.
I agree that the problem is probably locktite related, possibly linked to securing the 8mm bolt.
I've taken photos pretty much most of the way, so at least others will be able to see your design in action!
Can't wait.
Thanks again.
James
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Just to close with my continuing adventures to remove 'The Bush' for the benefit of others who might attempt this task...
First, it's worth stating that this axle, in my view, sat for a long while on a knackered car. There was a large amount of rush on everything. One clear indicator of the state of play was the fact that part of a rear coil spring (broken off) had rusted to the plate on the trailing arm. It was a battle the whole way - everything has been stuck on/corroded. For what it's worth, I think someone has carried out perhaps a bearing replacement or something, because as Eric stated below (and thanks for the puller) there is evidence of locktite here and there. (And, actually, everywhere).
Anyway, yesterday we took the bearing to a machine works that has a 70 ton press in order to have one final go at the bush. With 4 tons of pressure on it, the bush remained stuck fast. We then applied oxy acetylene using a cutter (with gentle-ish heat) and after a few minutes there was a fairly explosive crack and it jumped. But we had to repeat this process about 5-6 times to shift the bush and get it free of the pin. (We pulled the wheel bearings at the same time to get the backing plates off for zinc plating - much easier).
In hindsight, I'd note the following. First, whilst some bushes might slide off, this one took 4 tons of pressure and heat at the same time, and even then it was a pretty involved process. Second, having cut the outer collar of the bush onto which the upright arm locks (which was under enough pressure to crack open and split the last 8mm or so of metal that remained uncut as I was hacking away with my dremel), then cut off the rubber, then tried for ages to get what remained of the bush to move, I would suggest to anyone who tries this again to just save the time and buy a new pin if their bush is truly stuck. I have spent hours trying to shift the bush. It retails for about 80 euros. (List that under the 'Things I Wish I Knew 3 Weeks Ago' thread).
I now just have the UJ to pull using Eric's tool, and then that's the whole thing in pieces. I'll document the rebuild, which hopefully will be less painful than the dismantle.
To end on a positive note, I found that notwithstanding that the exposed ends of the bush were tatty, the inside of the thing, as well as the rest of the rubber on the axle - but particularly the boot (one piece) which looked a bit questionable from the outside - was actually in very good condition and still very much fit for purpose. To that end, I'd suggest that the many who've read this thread don't really need to worry about the bush unless they have a real problem with their rear end. The bush I cut off was actually in excellent condition despite the fact that the axle had sat around for years, seemingly unused and just rusting away.
My thanks to everyone who's helped along the way with this. I'm most grateful for the insights.
Now to powder coat the thing and order a great many parts...
JH