Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: mdsalemi on March 21, 2011, 12:40:05
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Gents,
With the help of a few friends here (JA17, Alfred, JonnyB, Peter Lesler, and more), I'm putting the final touches on the W113 buyer's guide that will appear in the MBCA STAR Magazine later this year.
I have been forced to slash and burn a lot of copy in the interest of magazine real estate. A rather elaborate pricing chart supplied by SL Market Letter must be condensed. So, here is how I condensed it:
Concours Quality: $70,000--$100,000
Excellent Driver: $50,000--$70,000
Good Driver: $30,000--$50,000
Needy Driver: $20,000--$30,000
Tired Runner: $10,000--$20,000
There's no room for distinction between models and features; some of that is covered in the article text and the wide range listed for each category. Anyone care to comment and or adjust the listed pricing?
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All original 175K?
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Hasn't SOLD at that price yet, but I bet it ends up in Europe.
Too rare to justify a line item.
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Michael, I think you're spot on. The only thing I might add is that I see cars going for over $10K that could only be realistically considered as a parts car.
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Thanks Rick--I've already tagged the summary with a brief explanation of the range; that some exceptional cars have gone for more, and will note about the low end as well.
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Just curious, any thoughts as to the difference in different parts of the US?
Thanks,
Rolland
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Michael - I don't know the context of how you will use the table - but I would be interested in your expert opinion on what % of the remaining W113's on the road fall in each category. With no data, and no fear....here would be my guess. What's your opinion?
Concours Quality: $70,000--$100,000 1%
Excellent Driver: $50,000--$70,000 5%
Good Driver: $30,000--$50,000 10%
Needy Driver: $20,000--$30,000 60%
Tired Runner: $10,000--$20,000 24%
Total: 100%
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Doug, Rolland--
The guesswork as to how many fall into each category is interesting and one I had not really thought of. I don't think it is appropriate for the article and I don't know how we would measure it. I can tell you this--from going to a bunch of PUB's over the years, the quality of the cars has gone up. Many of the cars have improved, some significantly so, over the years. This is due to collaborative information sharing here, and dedicated owners. I appreciate the comment "my expert opinion" but in this case we'd all be guessing, I think. That being said, I'd say you did a good first pass at guessing.
As to different parts of the country, I don't believe there is any real issue here--I can tell you from dealing with many of the Pagoda Style contributors that when people have really sought out these cars, there are no borders--they look long and hard, and travel great distances. We might very well be in a global village of pricing. International borders might be different, factoring in local supply and exchange rates.
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Michael,
Very interesting statistic, I am in full agreement. Please read my post siting my past year experience in trying to sell my car.
My car is an excellent driver, what with the new bodywork, paint, soft top new interior, rebuild motor and transmission my pricing was even lower than your list.
I was prepeared to go as low as $30k, no takers, so I am taking Dan's advise and keep and enjoy the car for a little bit longer.
The market is the pits right now, as everybody seems to think......
I had my eyes on a local Porsche 911SC Targa, three owner car with all documents for $14,850.......that ought to tell something about the market.....
CHEERS !
WITT !
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Hello All - - The content of this thread is germane and interesting. Thanks go out to all the contributors.
However, I cannot find the category that correctly describes the 230SL I purchased in 2004. It was what I would call a "Neglected Jewel". Other than having a failed water pump, it was roadworthy when it was put into storage. All of the chrome trim was present and in excellent shape, only a few small interior accessory items had been picked off, and the chassis was absolutely rust-free. At the end of a five year period of hibernation I was able to grab it for $6,500.
One comment about Doug's post: I think the 24% figure for Tired Runner is way to high. Any 113 owners who, though perhaps not part of our inner circle , are nevertheless well informed about how highly valued these cars are. Based on that assumption I suggest that there might be very few Tired Runners out there. Most of them likely have been moved into an active restoration mode.
Regards, Larry in CA
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Larry,
I think the category for your car would be "theft". Sounds like you got a great deal even in 2004 prices.
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In 2010 prices......
1971 280SL appraised for $69,000.00
Priced at $45,000.00
Sold for ?????
Price claimed it was sold for - $6,800.00 !!!! ( I don't believe it though )
Commission collected on sale .00
Lesson learned from above sale..... priceless.
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I think given the condensed list some factor for rust must be accounted for. As in "Less the cost of needed rust repairs.". That would account for the 20,000USD tired turning into a 10,000USD tired car.
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All original 175K?
You my friend are a gentleman & a scholar. :) Here's to that!
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I'll be looking for the article to define the terms "Needy", "Good", and "Tired", but it looks like you have a very reasonable set of ranges.
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I'll be looking for the article to define the terms "Needy", "Good", and "Tired", but it looks like you have a very reasonable set of ranges.
Regarding pricing, John Olsen, a recognized authority on pricing and SL's, provided a matrix of prices updated from his last matrix for inclusion in the article. However, there was space for only a fraction of that matrix, and The Star editor used that matrix as the basis for his summary. In the descriptions, there isn't a whole lot of detail on what the descriptives mean; so there is a lot of interpretation. Of course the interpretation is really reality--it is hard to "pigeon hole" the vast array of Pagodas into even 6 tidy groups.
The article (see the other post on it) was nearly twice as long prior to editing for size; and then got smaller still. A slightly larger and more detailed version, I think, will be posted on the MBCA website. It is my job as an author to be a stickler for details. Details add size. The editors job is to fit to the alotted size, which in the case of The Star Buyer's Guides, is 4 pages--including photos.
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Hi there,
I thought you might be interested to know about the prices in Australia. The link refers
http://www.carsales.com.au/used/mercedes/280sl/
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When I'm ready to sell Ole beige, maybe Australia is the place.
Richard M, NYC
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Dont get too excited Richard,
For a start they are all right hand drive but secondly, three of the four have been on the market for over a year and will not happen at those prices.
They are either dreaming, smoking some odd stuff or don't really want to sell.
I questioned the dealer on one of the low milages cars. They had no books, or documentation but still stuck with the low milage. Yer right.
The $149,950, Californian coupe, no soft top, auto. That one is going to still be available for the Pagoda 50th year celebrations :D :D :D
Garry
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Well, I might as well let the cat out of the bag. In order to give a realistic grip on Pagoda pricing here is an actuall recent sale:
I had my 1970 280SL for eight years and did a lot of work on it, new paint and bodywork, new soft top, rebuild head, previous owner had interiour redone, with a lot of help from this site I sorted out all driving related problems. ( I am a retired auto mechanic and enjoy working on classic cars as a hobby now.....)
In short, I invested 40k including purchase price, it was insured for 37k ( agreed value collector plates) The car started, ran, stoped, shifted and looked fantastic ! I was asking 40k and settled for 35k.
Since I just bought a 1988 Porsche Carrera in great condition for 15k, I consider myself ahaed of the game.
All these transactions where local and in Canadian $.
CHEERS !
WITT !
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Hello Witt,
I am a new member and owner of SL's but have been following them for a very long time. I have owned a couple of others, a 116 still have this, and a 123 (no longer). I get VERY jealous of the prices paid for these beauties overseas. My brother leaves in the US and I have been encouraging him to "invest" in one.
Re Australian prices, I can confirm that a 280 SL (red) in pretty good condition sold at an Auction in September for $100K AUD. With the current exchange rate, this translates to the same in USD. I also know of another that sold a while back for over $120K.
There was a massive fall in prices across all sports, classic and collectable cars when the financial crises hit. Quite a few Ferraris, Porsches, Benzes etc. came on the market for really cheap prices. For instance a 280 SL sold for $27K. However, prices recovered really quickly and quite sharply.
I had been looking for one to buy but just could not find anything under $50K. Finally found a great 69 280 (Blue Grey) in New Zealand for less than $50K but only because of the favourable exchange rate. I have since bought another, a 68 280 (Dark Blue), locally for more than $50K.
I would be interested to hear of others.
I will be looking for a 230 SL soon, so if there are any in good condition for less than $50 I would like to talk to them.
Yes I am going through a mid-life moment :)
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....new baby and old baby....
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Witt,
Congratulations on your sale and your purchase !
There are a lot of good things to be said about how a 911 SC feels on the road.
Enjoy the ride !
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At this point in time I'd take the original price chart and shift all the descriptions down one line relative to the prices. In other words I think all the price bands are too high. I'd love to believe our cars are worth more currently (I've got 4, after all), but I'm not seeing it in actual sales.
I realize Michael's list is 9 months old, but are others actually seeing cars go in those price ranges?
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I just reviewed a listing of 34 280SLs currently for sale. The upper 12% of those 280SLs has an average price of $105,600.
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I just reviewed a listing of 34 280SLs currently for sale. The upper 12% of those 280SLs has an average price of $105,600.
Wow. I'm curious where you are seeing those cars, and is that asking price or actual selling price? Any chance you can share the listing you compiled?
I've been looking at ebay, which admittedly is only a slice of the market, and there is a huge difference between a list of the asking prices and a list of the consummated sales. When I looked last night the highest price for a car that actually sold was $37k, and it looked like an excellent driver.
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By the way, it might just be that my definition of the different categories is off. When I see a car I might thing it's much better, and hence fits in a higher price band than others might judge.
Anyone want to venture definitions for each of the price bands?
I'm quite interested in this as my 4-car "barn find" starts to come to life. I'm currently planning on selling off two of them, and trying to decide how much work to do on each before placing on the market. I could do very little other than make them sounds drivers (which is pretty easy with all of them), or do varying levels of carpet, seats, paint to push them up a category or two.
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I didn't think it would be right to post all of the details, but you can get access to that kind of info by subscribing to the SL Market Letter.
http://slmarket.com/news/
Also, I seem to recall sometime back having read there that the W113 was projected to be the best appreciating M-B for the coming decade. +7% CAGR for the best cars if I remember correctly. If that ends up being the case then based on the "rule of 72" prices could double in approx. 10 years. Hope it works out that way. Who in their right mind wouldn't? It's nice to own an asset that has such potential to appreciate, that is rolling art, which also serves as a hobby.
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I know I'm late chiming in but the is a good summary...
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Are there any colors which seem to sell for more consistantly?
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Most cars you will see are going to be number 3 cars. Even nicely restored cars are still going to be number 3 cars. High 3 or low 3 is the only difference and it takes a really nice car to even venture into the low 2 range. You aren't going to see very many number 2 cars unless you go to a museum and I don't expect to ever see a number 1 pagoda.
Most people think they have a better car than they do - it's normal.
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I just received the latest Sports Car market (awsome magazine - if you get just one non MB, this has to be the one to get) - Bonhams Scottsdale auction results Jan 19, 2012 included a 69 280sl cond 2+ sold for $52,650. The writer Michael Leven says that he has had a Pagoda for 10 years. Michael? Are you out there on this list?
Ian