Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: cascadia on August 21, 2011, 06:55:07
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Well, here we go again. About four months ago I got in touch with a gentleman who advertised a 230SL for sale. On the phone he mentioned that it was an early car, that it had been parked for 30 years, and that it was by now so buried beneath his other belongings that he wasn't sure just when he could actually show the car to a prospective buyer. I kept in touch with him and today, finally, got my chance to look at the car. It is indeed early, number 15! It's in need of a total restoration, and unfortunately doesn't have original fenders. Originally white, it was repainted gold many years ago. It has a M127.982 motor with a 2 plunger IP and the hood has a bulge to accommodate clearance for the intake plenum, something I've never seen (or even heard of) before. Could this be some early variant before production really got finalized? I'll leave this question to the experts.
The car has some neat "early car" items, such as a driver's side grab handle, wood bow on the soft top for the old style trim strip in the back, painted dash air vents, no hood strap, no heater valve access hole - well maybe that one's not so neat. Also on the minus side someone has added later side marker lights, bumper guards, and a tow hitch. I am going to help extract the car out of the building in the coming months but the owner advised me it might take until Thanksgiving :o
I've created a slideshow gallery of pictures at this link:
https://picasaweb.google.com/pagoda113/W113Chassis000015?authkey=Gv1sRgCK7TtZHgxe2dVw&pli=1&gsessionid=XJrIWORTjp3MwdfYTGlmDQ#slideshow/5643190574322883138 (https://picasaweb.google.com/pagoda113/W113Chassis000015?authkey=Gv1sRgCK7TtZHgxe2dVw&pli=1&gsessionid=XJrIWORTjp3MwdfYTGlmDQ#slideshow/5643190574322883138)
but here's a couple of pics....
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Brilliant, well done! Hope it's not too rusty.
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A fabled "barn find" that's real !!!
The soft top looks better than mine.
A classic find indeed. That big air plenum is seen in some photos of prototype cars in Engelen's book.
The earliest VIN we have in our Car Registry is 1028 so this addition will move the Registry back to an earlier time.
It will take a lot of courage and hard work, not to say $$$, to get this one back on the road but the historic value will make it worthwhile.
Wonder if the Classic Center has the Datacard for this one?
Richard M, NYC
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Bob - this is very cool!! Have you actually bought it yet?
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Amazing! What a find. Has the car been in Oregon all these years? It does hurt to see such a wonderful car to literally be buried under all that debris. And I thought my garage was messy!
John ( from Paris, and no vintage SLs spotted in five days)
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wow. that is a project! I am pretty sure it was not in a garage for the first 20 years of its life. Be sure to grab that seat over there...
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Bob - this is very cool!! Have you actually bought it yet?
Yes, I bought it on the spot. Daunting project or not, the car is just too interesting to pass on. From what I've been told, the first owner was a Pan-Am executive who took delivery in Europe, had it flown to his home near Seattle, and then later passed it on to his daughter. The gentleman I bought it from purchased it from her. I plan on emailing the Classic Center on Monday to get a datacard.
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Bob congratulations, what an exciting buy.
If you need information on VERY early 230SL then contact Achim = "114015" through our web site.
He owns number 00021 and probably knows more about these early cars than anyone else on this planet.
Keep the remnants of the original firewall pad, it is the precursor of the diamond pattern that we are so familiar with!
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The long manifold and two element injection pump would indicate that the motor is a 2.2 litre from a 220se/b coupe or sedan, not original to the car.
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"Be sure to grab that seat over there..."
And the red hardtop!
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Amazing, Bob ....! ;D
Sadly, there are some original items lost like engine, seats, rims...
The rims yours has are not correct but from the W115.
We need to talk offline on the phone or by mail to exchange experiences and ideas ...
Great to see that another of the early ones is still around. And again a Europa version ... ;)
Best,
Achim
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Definitely Achim, thanks for getting in touch. My biggest question concerns the motor and the hood, I wonder if it's possible that this could be similar to the example in Engelen's book. Does anyone have a scan of that photo?
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I wouldn't think anyone would go to the trouble of fabricating that bulge to fit a non-standard engine. Does the bulge fabrication look professional or home made?
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It looked pretty seamless to me
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Yes Bob I thought the bulge looked pretty well made, some hammer marks or something around the internal bottom edge but maybe that's what you'd expect. What do you make of those tin snip marks on the inner hood edge in your '16' photo?
Regarding that rim Achim - with a date stamp 3/63 wouldn't you think it'd have to be original to the car?
I reckon (and prefer to believe) these are original parts! Seats maybe not, but as James says those could be the original buckets in behind.
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Those marks are actually where the gold paint has peeled back revealing the original paint beneath, it's something of an optical illusion in the photo.
I just got an email back from Mike Kunz at the Classic Center, he's out of the office at the Monterey event but has told me he will look into the archives upon his return later in the week. I'll certainly add any information I get once I hear back from him.
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... My biggest question concerns the motor and the hood, I wonder if it's possible that this could be similar to the example in Engelen's book. Does anyone have a scan of that photo?
Hi Bob,
I believe what Richard had in mind was the manifold, not the bulge in the hood. At least I could not find a photo in the book with a bulging hood, only a Pagoda with fin tails.
Here is a scan of the test engine with the long manifold
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Hopefully that data card will not take too long to obtain.
Remember, I went to look at "VIN # 0001" here in Michigan some years ago; a fleeting glimpse. Don't know how original it was. Non-standard mechanical work or other things done 40+ years ago can be deceptive because it looks so old. It was a strange situation, it was not the owner showing me the car, but the friend of the owner. It was in Manchester, Michigan. Nothing seemed right about anything with the situation or the car.
Regarding the trailer hitch, many European trailer hitches look a bit different than American style, with the ball being a uniform piece that come out from under the car; I believe they are called "goose neck" or "swan neck" and are almost unseen in the USA. Specifications for trailer hitches differ in the USA vs. Europe. Check out manufacturer Bosal's website. Given a vote, I'd say what this car has was added in the USA.
I should also note that pages 36 & 37 of "Les Mercedes Pagode" by Jean-Luc Fournier (2007) shows the image of the Plan définitif of the 230 SL--a blue print, as it were--dated 3-January-1963. Certainly by that time, and with that translation, the body was set for production. There is no additional hood bulge shown, just the defined one in the center we are all familiar with. Also, there are some very early (1963) photos of various 230 SLs in that same book and none show that secondary bulge.
One last thing about hood bulges: around these parts, (you know, where 40,000 hot rods and cruisers came from all over and cruised up and down Woodward Avenue while 1,000,000 people watched last Saturday) engine swaps and hood bulges and modifications to accomodate them are extremely common. Entire hoods with all the right bulges to accomodate engine swaps, as well as small bulge parts added to an existing hood are routine. Not often seen on Mercedes however, but the parts are there. More common in fiberglass than metal, but they are available and have been for decades.
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He's already got that underway.
Suspend all speculation 'til then? Unpossible.
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Michael - some good points. I recall that #0001 thread, not the detail, but I remember the engine bay looked believable to me (maybe I mean it looked corroded and dirty, just like a 1963 first run should!). Of course claims to authenticity and rarity should be viewed with scepticism, especially if they come with a high asking price. But this seller wasn't talking it up. And you know Bob, he probably bought the car for a (relative) song.
Trailer hitch? Agreed, possibly an add-on. Hood bulge? Well it definitely could have been added. But if MB were experimenting with that motor, as Alfred's Engelen photo demonstrates, and if that manifold wouldn't fit without a bulge, then a bulge there was (maybe that's what all those guys in the photo are discussing?)
p.s. you shoulda just 'replied'
Dave
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Agreed, Michael. Just because it's old doesn't mean it's original. One thing I like about vintage cars is that every one of them has a story to tell. This one has the potential to be a very interesting one, or perhaps one that contains a let down. In the meantime I don't mind the wait, I think that the speculative process is part of the fun. Either way, it's the chassis number that holds an interest for me, I'll report back with what the Classic Center says about the rest of the story.
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Re: #0001. Wasn't really for sale, they didn't seem to know much about it, but I can tell you this: even though it wasn't too pretty, it was Concours condition compared to #0015. Curiously it too was in a barn. :D I wish I could remember the year and find the photos I took of it! The VIN plate was peculiar.
I guess an interesting question is, at what VIN was the first true "sold" production car started? #1? #5? #15?
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There is for sure number 113-42-10-000004, but I don't know about number 2 and 3.
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The manifold and head in the vintage photo look different to me than the ones in Cascadia's "new" car. I think Al might be right (transplant?)
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James you are right, looks different in several respects (but still possibly bulgeworthy). All will be revealed I guess.
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I guess an interesting question is, at what VIN was the first true "sold" production car started? #1? #5? #15?
that's a pertinent question, you'd assume MB would have settled on a standard configuration before release to the general public.
Somewhat less convinced now (still hoping though).
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Hello
congratulations on this early vehicle. I have the number 20 (VIN). The adopted 16 on the photo of the hood denotes the hull number. As an example: The chrome moldings of the doors were then fitted with the very early pagodas by hand. In my car there the number 21 is stamped from the rear.
The number 14 (VIN) was the known Böhringer - Pagoda (translate this text: http://www.pagode.info/61.htm) then painted in red. There was then a second race pagoda whose VIN is not known to me at the moment (I am on vacasion in Italy). Look to see if you can see there's red paint. That would be a really good story ...
I would love to hear again from the vehicle.
many greetings
Ludger Lange, Germany
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I heard back from the Classic Center and no, the motor is not original to the car. I wonder why someone would go to the trouble of going backwards by using this motor?
From their email:
The datacard is dated 29. July 1963.
The car was built as a light beige (181) body / maroon (460) hardtop car
with a red (203) leather interior.
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Bob - I think that color combination would be outstanding if you restore it back!!
light beige (181) body / maroon (460) hardtop car
with a red (203) leather interior.
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Ahh, that news is a little deflating :(
Not the first time Al and Michael have been right ;)
She will be peppier with a .981 anyway!
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Hey John (49er),
In relation to your comment:
And I thought my garage was messy!
I think I am in with a shot for the messy garage title.
I make light of it but it is actually pretty embarrassing. The cleanup has begun but after 25 years of hoarding it won't happen overnight.
Anyway, in the spirit of feeling better by ridiculing others, have a look at the second photo - I downloaded this from an ebay auction some 10 years ago. If I was in the area I would have checked it out because it doesn't actually look too bad. But, presentation? 0 outa 5 mister. (no bids at 2k or so, those were the days :))
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I heard back from the Classic Center and no, the motor is not original to the car. I wonder why someone would go to the trouble of going backwards by using this motor?
I'd hazard a guess, in the words of the late great Edmund Hillary: because it was there
With your contacts no doubt you can find a good rebuildable 230 motor. It'd be great to see the restoration process step by step, as for your super job on 'mossy green'.
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I'll definitely keep the group updated on the progress, starting with when I can actually retrieve the car, this coming November
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Nice barn find , would love to see more interior pics
I had in person car 24 , first with white stering wheel , english text etc now sold to germany
did the body work on car 21
know car 20 from former owner
26 first car eksportet to denmark is still here
33 in norway
46 in denmark for sale privat car of the danish MB importer
got the original rally plate form rome liege car number 14 :)
so I feel I know the details
good luck restoring it ( or selling it to me hehe )
Marek
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The long manifold and two element injection pump would indicate that the motor is a 2.2 litre from a 220se/b coupe or sedan, not original to the car.
I found this photo in the book Faszination SL 230SL-280SL(W113) from the Mercedes Benz Museum.
It's a very early 230SL with the project engineers Guntram Huber and Erich Waxenberger.
Seems to have a different engine setup than normal.
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I think it is a transplant. If you look at the test engine although it has the long manifold it had a 6 port fuel pump which was carried on into production. I would really doubt the originality of the engine.
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I think this is a photo of one of the prototypes and not an early production car. I am traveling and do not have access to any of my historical information.
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Shvegel and Sirasila.
It is not a transplant. As mentioned in my previous reply (see Reply #16) to Richard the photo in the Engelen book makes it clear that this is a test engine!
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Ok, it took a while but I finally got the car out of the warehouse it's been stored in since '85. It took most of the day to get the tires swapped out and aired up, all the stuff cleared away and the car moved out into the daylight. In the process I uncovered a '70 6.3 that I ended up buying also, but that's another story. Now this early SL is back at my shop and I'm able to get a good look at it. Aside from its tatty appearance it's actually very solid, but needs everything. One detail that I hadn't noticed before is the extra trim strip on the soft top compartment lid, I've never seen that before. Other 'early car' details: The steering wheel is smooth with no ribs, and there's no data plate near the hood latch, doesn't look like there ever was one there. Instead there's a very faint indentation of a vin stamp, about 4 inches wide. I posted some more pics on Picasa, at this link: https://picasaweb.google.com/pagoda113/W113Chassis000015?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCK7TtZHgxe2dVw&feat=directlink
I don't think I'll have the time to take this one on, my plan is to clean it up some and post it to ebay. Can't save em all.
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Wow, that's very cool. I see a number of things unlike other W113s:
- Intake manifold is completely different
- Shaped bulge in hood (bonnet) to accommodate the manifold
- It looks like it has the old 2-plunger injection pump from earlier cars, not the 6-plunger pump used in all the other W113s
- Does that engine number say 962? Maybe that explains the engine config. Maybe straight out of another model, or perhaps a replacement?
- Wood, or faux wood dash rather than body paint
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Hi Bob - - - YEE HAW !!!
Now then, - - - if I could only convince you to trailer it up to "Pagodas on Orcas-2012", I know it would be an enormous hit and result in an overflow crowd of Pagodaphiles.
Larry in CA
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That sooooo needs saving properly!
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I'd love to know if that is the original engine, or a retro fit. If it's original, it shows that the first few cars just had engines from existing model lines dropped in, presumably while waiting for the production variants to be available.
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Not original, see Bob's reply #27.
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That sooooo needs saving properly!
You can be first in line. This is, regardless of he VIN or serial number, one sorry looking car, that will take a tremendous amount of patience; an enormous amount of resources, and a boatload of cash. Good luck and godspeed to those who want to try their hand at restoration. Maybe this is for the Classic Center...
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Shame about that engine but the car is actually not too bad from those pictures.
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OK Stick, line up behind Tosh. You can have auction paddle #2, he has #1. My car didn't look nearly as rough as that one and I knew what it took to put it right...and that was 10 years ago. This is one rough car which is why it was left as is for so long...but if you can do something with it, by all means...
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Alfred tipped me off that there may be another "16" stamp, by the trunk lock latch, and sure enough there it was. The folks at the classic center sent me pictures of an early car they just finished restoring, #279, it also had the absence of a data plate near the hood latch, just a vin stamp. Additionally, the folding top instructions sticker is in the glovebox door, never seen that before. Fun stuff. Rough as the car is, these are the details that make it fascinating to me.
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Mine too has the vin stamp and no plate near the latch (no. 871).
Now if I am not mistaken, in that glovebox picture, isn't that a stir stick from a cocktail circa late 1960s? For some reason it sent me back to my Dad's Country Club.
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Good eyes james :)
John
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At what point does a car no longer become itself? I ask this after reading an article in the latest Sports Car Market about a Carroll Shelby, CSX3303. In looking at the pictures of Pagoda Chassis 000015 and reading the various posts, it sounds like almost everything under the hood has already been changed in this car. In restoring this car it would likely require a number of new body panels and numerous other parts. So how much of the original car would actually still be on or in the car when it is finished? So could this car then be declared the 15th Pagoda made? I would have to say no if most of the car was no longer in attendance. A VIN plate does not in itself make a car. That is just my opinion and I would be interested in hearing what others have to say. I'm sure there are many strong opinions on this. ;D ::) I've noticed publications seem to be placing more and more emphasis on "original" unmolested cars, even if they are not in pristine condition.
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I think with this car what hurts it the most is the non-original motor. However, with the exception of the driver's side fender, all of its body panels are original. One important aspect is the body number stamp (16) which is found throughout this car. In addition are the vin stamps on the subframe support, hood latch support, cowl tag and door jamb tag. These are the key elements that give it an identity. Any car that is restored has parts that are not original on it, that's just the nature of a restoration. There are a few completely original Pagodas out there which are in a class by themselves. The majority of our Pagodas have had some restorative work done and the argument could be made that each new item diminishes the originality of the car. My feeling is that the core of a Pagoda's originality lies in its body panels, undercarriage, production number stamps and the all important subframe support vin stamp.
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The question of how original something is makes for endless amusement. We've all heard the story of "my great-great-grandfather's axe." It's 200 years old but the head has been changed 7 times and the handle 5 times. Ha, ha.
When I did my M.A. in Philosophy, one of my favourite conundrums was The Ship of Theseus. Philosophers can never decide on a final answer for anything anyhow. I think it was Plato who told this story. Theseus would pull into harbour and go get drunk with his crew. Unbeknownst to Theseus, thieves stole a few pieces of his ship, replacing those pieces with brand new pieces. Theseus never noticed, of course, and he kept coming back to that harbour every few weeks. He kept getting drunk, the thieves kept stealing bits of his ship, and you can imagine how the story ends. Eventually every piece of Theseus's ship had been replaced, but it was still the same ship.
At least as far as Theseus knew. The tricky part is that the thieves took the pieces over to the next Greek island and, bit by little bit, put Theseus's original ship back together there, without Theseus every realizing what they were up to.
So which ship is The Ship of Theseus? I'm sure K&K or Millers or that fellow over in Poland have thought long and hard about this story. 8) Maybe if Pagoda 000015 gets back on the road, it should have the licence plate THESEUS. You'd get pulled over by a lot of philosophers.
Note added later: the WikiPedia article tells me it was Plutarch, not Plato, who wrote up the conundrum of the Ship of Theseus, and that Thomas Hobbes (much later) added the twist about re-creating the original ship out of the original parts. Also, that the story of grandfather's ax is often connected with George Washington. Maybe he used it to chop down the cherry tree? Cees, you've put your finger on the interesting point that Philosophers seem incapable of accepting the obvious answer, maybe because it would them out of business. Marcus, I'm not sure how the sports car writer got Pericles involved, because Pericles was a statesman, not a sailor, and wouldn't have had a ship to whistle in in the first place. Not that any of this is important, but I like to help get the details right when I can 8)
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Peter, that is so funny because the article I refer to in the Sports Car Market starts off with Pericles, the Greek Hero. The Athenians wanted to honour him by preserving his ship. With time planks were replaced as they decayed until eventually the entire ship did not contain one original plank. Was this still the ship of Pericles?
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The philosophical questions aside, and the originality questions aside as well, this is a case for sitting down and looking at practicality.
Would a solid driver, moderately restored or highly restored 230 SL be worth any more than any other 230 SL because of its #15 VIN? I don't know, but suggest not. If maybe, so little that it might be irrelevant for further discussion.
So, practicality and affordability comes into play. Everything without exception on that car will need work. All the chrome is pitted; the interior ripped up, we don't know the condition of the engine or fuel system and most other mechanical bits. I know from experience that every wear item, every piece of rubber without exception, will need replacement.
Start adding it all up--the parts and labor hours and or sublet work--and one will realize that unless you have a good solid reason for saving this, there is little practical reason for doing so. Many of us have been down this path before, but we have an edge: our heartstrings. My own car is a family heirloom, purchased by my Uncle in 1969. Many other of us have cars that belonged to our fathers, grandfathers, in-laws or similar, and thus emotion trumps finances.
In this case unless someone is emotionally attached to mere VINs, sad to say this one practically will be a tough sell--and I suggest the eBay or whatever sales means employed price, will eventually reflect that.
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When I said that the car didn't look too bad, I meant that it was certainly not beyond salvage. Whether it's economically viable or not is another matter entirely.
I recently restored, at my own expense, a 190SL that was chassis number 0045, one of the earliest known survivors, but when it came to selling the car that made not one bit of difference. She was worth just the same as any other 190SL in similar condition.
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this one practically will be a tough sell--and I suggest the eBay or whatever sales means employed price, will eventually reflect that.
Time will tell, the car will be posted to ebay by this time next week. I'm of the belief that there will be a bump in price because of the vin. For the buyer, the cost of restoring this car will be only marginally higher than any other complete restoration - once you're there you're there. The car's end value however will be greater than other 113042 cars, even if you don't agree from a monetary standpoint, you can't deny that the element of 'bragging rights' comes into play, and for some folks that's worth a lot. Early production and late production cars always carry a mystique of their own. This will be an interesting one to watch on ebay.
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Hey PJ (Peter), great reference! Fits this conundrum perfectly. And they said "you'll never use this philosophy stuff in the real world..." At least that's what they told me! (MA History)...
Another way to approach it is from what I believe is the ontological viewpoint. All of us agree (I think) that our cars have a certain soul or spirit that sets the Pagoda apart from most other cars. At some point, number 15 was unique even among Pagodas -- it had its own soul so to speak -- and somebody somewhere experienced it as such. Now twenty, thirty years later, the fenders may be different, the engine replaced, and so on, but the essence (or the soul) of number 15 still exists.
Now if every single part of that car was changed, then what? Well, the spirit or soul of number 15 would still be there -- as 15 was unique -- it was initially as a place marker of Pagoda reality. The "new" Pagoda could never be anything else but the "old" Pagoda. That's life, what ya gonna do?
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On a related note:
Steven Wright ...
I Woke Up This Morning, And I Realized That Somebody Had Broken Into My Apartment,
Stolen All My Things And Replaced Them With Exact Duplicates.
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How do you know it was not just half of them?
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I agree, the value of this car will probably not see any appreciable incease due to being 15.
It would be cool if someone resurected the car with the existing motor / hood bulge and keep it is a piece of rolling history as to what people did to these cars in the past. I used to know of a Ferrari that had a small block buick v-8. It was a cool car and when it was at the show and shine the owner would say that his car was modified back in the 70's by the previous owner out of necessity and why change it now - it was a shrine to the PO. I don't know how many 113s I have seen with a sedan motor in them - they are still cool - I can't usually tell unless there is a carb and aircleaner. In many cases I have more admiration for many of them when you see the work that the guys did to make it all work.
The motor in it won't earn any brownie points with the purists and if someone is going to head in knowing he's going to go upside down, stock (or as close as you can) will be the way to go to reduce the amount he will be underwater.
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Gentleman, - - - my two cents worth:
What would really be the point in bringing #15 all the way back to a very "original condition"?
I think a much more appropriate and noteworthy expression of the spirit that makes these cars great would be to leave it mostly the way it is. It is a true artifact and should remain an artifact. Does an archeologist take his new fossil into his lab, then bead blast it and smooth off the edges?
To use a recently-hackneyed expression: IT IS WHAT IT IS. I vote to clean it out , shine it up, get a correct M127 in it, and let it be.
Regards, Larry in CA
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Bonnyboy, I've a 127 982 engine in/from a 113.......
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The March, 2012 issue of Road&Track [Magazine] has a column/editorial by editor Matt DeLorenzo titled "Barn Finds Revisited". I won't attempt to interpret his take on things for all of you, but it is worth a look. http://www.roadandtrack.com/column/barn-finds-revisited
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Maybe there is more to this car than we realize. I admit it looks like a transplanted old 230 but as I was reading the thread tonight something struck me. If the Böhringer rally car was number 14 then this car was the next off the line. Usually when someone is mounting a serious challenge there is more than one car involved in the program. In the description of the Böhringer rally there is a mention of a 220SEb Heckfloss as well which would prove that the 220 engine could have been a viable alternative as an engine. Also the long manifold would have generated more torque at low RPM's. Could this thing be a test mule for the Böhringer program?
I might be mistaken but didn't Herr Böhringer run a 220 Heckfloss the year before? If I was playing with a new driveline I would test it against the old one.
http://www.eugen-boehringer.de/rennsportbilder.htm
I wonder what color combination and options the Böhringer car came off the line with...Hmmm.
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I agree that there is likely more to the story than we are giving credit.
Why, for example, would someone swap the engine and go to all the trouble of hand forming a hood to clear the large manifold? If it was just a routine engine swap, why not reuse the original 230 intake and save all the extra trouble? Someone really went out of their way to make the modification the way they did.
Also, i have a somewhat different view of the value of unique SNs, matching numbers, etc. There are a lot of ours car out there in good shape, so rareness is less of a factor, but one of the things that distinguishes the very top $$ cars of any make is provenience. Very early examples, very late examples, rare option combinations, who owned the car, things the car was involved with, etc all contribute. I think #15 purely by virtue of it's extremely low build number holds significance. If there is an interesting story behind the funky motor, that could add significantly.
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The question of how original something is makes for endless amusement. We've all heard the story of "my great-great-grandfather's axe." It's 200 years old but the head has been changed 7 times and the handle 5 times. Ha, ha.
When I did my M.A. in Philosophy, one of my favourite conundrums was The Ship of Theseus. Philosophers can never decide on a final answer for anything anyhow. I think it was Plato who told this story. Theseus would pull into harbour and go get drunk with his crew. Unbeknownst to Theseus, thieves stole a few pieces of his ship, replacing those pieces with brand new pieces. Theseus never noticed, of course, and he kept coming back to that harbour every few weeks. He kept getting drunk, the thieves kept stealing bits of his ship, and you can imagine how the story ends. Eventually every piece of Theseus's ship had been replaced, but it was still the same ship.
At least as far as Theseus knew. The tricky part is that the thieves took the pieces over to the next Greek island and, bit by little bit, put Theseus's original ship back together there, without Theseus every realizing what they were up to.
So which ship is The Ship of Theseus? I'm sure K&K or Millers or that fellow over in Poland have thought long and hard about this story. 8) Maybe if Pagoda 000015 gets back on the road, it should have the licence plate THESEUS. You'd get pulled over by a lot of philosophers.
This one is easy, no? Theseus' ship is now in the hands of the thieves, who in return gave him a copy of it.
As for no. 15 would say that, even replacing everything down to the chassis parts with vin numbers on them, it willl always be no. 15, although more diluted and so not as strong a 15 as it used to be. That is, so long as the old parts that were replaced weren't used to create a copy that has more original parts than no 15 itself. And one could say that if original parts were re-used in two vehicles, then there would be 2 original 15s, one less diluted than the other. Just like Theseus' ship was temporarily in two places right around the midpoint of the steal-and-replace-process. But in the end Theseus only thinks he has his own ship. Similar to: your wife brings the diamond wedding ring to the jeweller's to get cleaned. He replaces the stone with a good looking, but less valuable copy. You and your wife can't tell, as you know. So who has the diamond you gave two months' salary for back when? Even though you're still just as happy looking at it as before (or not, that depends on the originality of the marriage) ;-)
In fact there's another parallel that is even closer to home: to what extent are you still you? If I am not mistaken, most of your cells are replaced with new cells in a relatively short time. Except (some or all) of your brain cells. So you've been mostly restored yourself - are you still original?
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That's an interesting discussion.
Earlier cars from the 1920s or 1930s usually had several lives, with various engines, various bodies fitted to them at different periods of their lives. When documented, people chose to restore them for them to look at what they were at one given point in their lives. They trace older bodies, older engines, which were not necessarily the ones the car came out of the factory with.
Also in Europe, the cars that went through WW2 and the immediate aftermath had some modifications done to be able to run on wood (gazogene), and were repaired/maintained with whatever was available. These cars are now historical testimonies.
After WW2 people couldn't afford new cars, which were produced in very limited numbers anyway. So they were taking old cars from the 30s and 40s and rebodying them in the style of the 50s, fitting more efficient engines that were usimng less gas etc. Theses cars are also testimonies of a period.
All this doesn't really apply to Pagodas which came later, but it is just to put things a bit in perspective. Yes, a very nice and well preserved car should be kept original. Full restorations to better than original also have their place. But the vast majority of our cars have had their own lives, with scars and stigmates that make them what they are. I sometimes find it more interesting than a 200% bolts and nuts restored car.
The other thing is that nowadays emphasis is put on full bolts and nuts restoration to original standards. The result is that there are a lote of these Pagodas out there now. They have become common. What will people be after in 10 or 20 years from now ? What will be the neww standards ? How do we look at "older restaurations" today ?
In the case of that 000015, it would be worth knowing the circumstances in which it was modified. The nature of the story may then help decide what's the best thing to do with it.
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Well, if there is a story behind it, perhaps it would be worth ferreting out...chain of ownership should not be that difficult to track down, at least for a few years back...
We might know more this week when it goes on eBay. If it goes up with "no reserve" then the true value will emerge. I suggest, in my own opinion, that certain items that end up on auction at eBay always sell, and always at the correct price. Vintage Leica cameras are a good example; any modern (last 5 years) Apple computer equipment is another. Collectible Mercedes cars and parts are a third.
Things get muddled up when a reserve is placed on them. Every now and then something might accidentally slip by to the detriment of the seller and benefit of the buyer, However, put a good grill star with no reserve on eBay and it will sell. Put it on with a start price of $600 and it might be on for a while.
I watched hundreds of Apple Macintosh auctions, and everything sold. The exceptions were too-high reserves. The highly sought after Canon G11 camera is another--all sold, no reserve necessary.
So, if #15 goes up with no reserve, the true value will emerge.
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This is indeed an interesting discussion. What premium does the market place on early cars and on originality today? As I have a 1964 230SL in its original db268 blaugrun factory paint, with tan interior, no rust, and 51,372 km showing on the odometer, I am interested in hearing what premium is placed on originality. I have my 230SL listed on ebay right now, so perhaps we shall see what originality means for values of these cars. In the meantime it is very interesting for me to see how the factory did certain things on the bodywork, without having to peel back layers of previous paint and bodywork. (http://)
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I agree eBay is a good place to determine the price of common things sought after by a large number of people. Things get a bit more complicated with specialized items with narrrow demand and narrow offer. One of the few persons willing to put big money in a rare thing may not be watching eBay at the time it is auctioned. Then advertizing in specialized circles becomes necessary, and transactions may happen out of eBay.
I had a very nice W109 6.3 some years ago. I put a lot of time and effort in having it run flawlessly and it was looking very nice. It was not that a rare item, but I took it to Kienle and they sold it 35.000 euros for me. Their commission was between 1 and 3 percent, I don't remember, but it was more than reasonable. There is no way I would have got that amount of money by posting it on eBay.
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I think ebay will give you a definitive price for a sale on ebay. But I think it's only one market for classic cars, and one with some significant flaws. Personally, I'd be very resistant to buy a classic car via ebay, site unseen, and I don't think I'm alone. I know one person who bought an MB Cabriolet paying top dollar, and it turned out to be hacked hardtop. You are, after all, usually buying from a used car salesman. As a result I think ebay likely under-prices cars because of the risk factor to buyers.
Where do the really high dollar cars sell? I 'think" it's the high-end auctions, and then specialty dealers, but that's just a guess. Where do $75k and up cars sell? Not on ebay I don't think.
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Original, low milage cars are always going to bring a permium as long as the condition is a high 3 or low 2. You can also have an original car that has original rust, original wear, and original non serviced items, so condition is worth as much, if not more, than rarity for the right car.
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I think ebay will give you a definitive price for a sale ....
Well, it is on eBay now: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/160737846063
How high will it go? Any bets??
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Almost 1000 views so I guess it will go high - near $15k?
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That's a nicely presented add. Some emphasis is put on the early model details, and makes it a bit "special", in the attractive way. Being a solid car also adds to its attractiveness.
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How high will it go? Any bets??
Almost 1000 views so I guess it will go high - near $15k?
I'd suggest somewhere between $12K and $15K, and even that is by someone with a lot of money and a lot of time to devote to the project.
I just inspected, for a friend here in the business, a 1969 280 SL that had been "highly restored" some years back, with a fabulous attention to detail. All the trim was complete and perfect; all the chrome replated. Engine bay detailed, all the right clamps, and extremely clean. Plating was close to correct. A few missing details, (satin black paint in places such as air cleaner, overflow tank, underside of trunk deck was too glossy) but it wouldn't take much at all to give this car 98+ points in a Concours. A few worn or broken rubber or plastic parts, a few misplaced or incorrect hoses. Engine started right up, sounded great. Blacklick CO test told me mixture was great at mid and high range. Notches there, paint job superb, original doors and body panels. Hard top was restored as well. There was nothing missing save for the tool kit--a 107 kit was in its place. Wouldn't take it on the road at the moment in Michigan (salt, etc.) but I'd suggest it's probably in top notch running shape. Went for ~40K at auction.
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this one practically will be a tough sell--and I suggest the eBay or whatever sales means employed price, will eventually reflect that.
So no longer a tough sell? :)
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From the photos I have to say the value is not much more than the parts value? Or, other approach, take Michael's $40K pristine example, subtract the realistic restoration cost, and you will almost certainly end lower than the parts value (in fact you'll end below nil). So parts value is what it should be, rationally.
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Since there is a bid already, the sell part is done...tough or not.
Since there are multiple bids, the potential issue of a non-payer is probably, but not 100% realistically, squelched. I do have experience with non-payers, and the "second-chance" offer rarely works in my experience. What usually happens in the case of a non-bidder, is the savvy 2nd in line knows the goods will go on auction again, so they don't bite; the high bidder was bogus, so the 2nd in line might be overpriced. Best to wait for a second auction. That's happened several times to me. Next time I won't even offer a 2nd chance. I hope for your sake the #1 bidder is serious. It's pretty easy to bid; less easy to buy if you get my drift.
I think it is, already, vastly overpriced in practical terms. There is no way to turn this hulk into even a driver for less money than you can buy one for--none. It simply needs too many parts, and too much work. If I was wrong on that part, you would have kept it yourself, since that's your business, right? ;) But, as long as someone is there with cash--as they appear to be--well I wish you the best on this. It's always great as a seller to see things rise. They don't often rise properly until the last hour (or minute) anyway, so all this price speculation is a bit premature.
John Olson's price guide would probably have put the value on this chassis at under ~$4K. Barring something we don't know, I'd suggest the bidders are placing a value on #15.
# of views, BTW, is not that relevant. Many people track anything to do with Pagodas and parts, and they'll keep coming back.
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There is no way to turn this hulk into even a driver for less money than you can buy one for--none. It simply needs too many parts, and too much work. If I was wrong on that part, you would have kept it yourself, since that's your business, right? ;)
I primarily just buy and sell vintage cars, the mossy green Pagoda that I restored I bought for myself, thinking that I could do a basic restoration and get into Pagoda ownership on the cheap. We all know how that turned out :D Yes, you're right, these cars take a tremendous amount of resources to do right, and will teach a lesson or two about the skills possessed by those assembly line workers at Sindelfingen.
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I'd suggest somewhere between $12K and $15K, and even that is by someone with a lot of money and a lot of time to devote to the project.
I just inspected, for a friend here in the business, a 1969 280 SL that had been "highly restored" some years back, with a fabulous attention to detail. All the trim was complete and perfect; all the chrome replated. Engine bay detailed, all the right clamps, and extremely clean. Plating was close to correct. A few missing details, (satin black paint in places such as air cleaner, overflow tank, underside of trunk deck was too glossy) but it wouldn't take much at all to give this car 98+ points in a Concours. A few worn or broken rubber or plastic parts, a few misplaced or incorrect hoses. Engine started right up, sounded great. Blacklick CO test told me mixture was great at mid and high range. Notches there, paint job superb, original doors and body panels. Hard top was restored as well. There was nothing missing save for the tool kit--a 107 kit was in its place. Wouldn't take it on the road at the moment in Michigan (salt, etc.) but I'd suggest it's probably in top notch running shape. Went for ~40K at auction.
So what constitutes a car that's worth $50k to $150k? This is where I start to get really confused. Even going back to your query several months ago in prep for you buying guide, you had condition ratings and price ranges that far exceeded $40k? Is it just that some dealers are able to find the buyers with more money than brains and get those huge prices? How would you rank/rate that $40k car? It sounds like it would be near the top?
As for restorations, I've heard numbers in the $100k to $150k range for a complete strip down, do everything right restoration. That means you will always be under water on such a pursuit.
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As for restorations, I've heard numbers in the $100k to $150k range for a complete strip down, do everything right restoration. That means you will always be under water on such a pursuit.
I've heard similar amounts mentioned. That does mean that it is not an investment that will be recouped by the 'investor', but it will be by all those coming afterwards. I think it's safe to say that, if you're in the market for a really great car, then look out for one that has recently had the full restoration done and snap it up for $50 or so thousand. Then enjoy and just maintain it for a long time, and probably you will sell it for about the same as you paid, or a bit more (inflation). If you want to do something good, restore one. Not everything has to be a money making proposition.
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Peter (Hayden),
If you talk to, or look at some of the comments by Gernold, it can easily take $100K+ to restore one of these cars properly, though I would suggest his numbers are on the high end. I believe he was quoted as such in the article spotlighting him in Hemmings last year.
I think a "95 pt+" car can easily fetch $75K or more. I think Ed Cave's got near $100K; I think Bob Possel's was over $90K. These were exquisitely restored examples. Brian Peters can get that kind of money, I guess. I don't know as much from money as from time, on my own car: 1,000+ hours of professional work, not including any sublet work, plating, engine work, or parts costs.
The car I looked at the other day, the one that sold for ~$40K, so I'm told, would need maybe a little bit of work to make it the equivalent of Possel's or Caves. I think it was "bought well".
It would be interesting to follow this chassis #15 into the future and see where it goes, but we probably won't have that luxury. Around these parts--the Motor City area--the garages, warehouses, pole barns et al are filled with stories of broken dreams and too costly restorations that eventually pass at a proper price to someone with fresh and renewed energy and deeper pockets. It is also filled with wonderful restorations without these way stations of overzealous and underfunded buyers.
Would it not be really cool if this chassis got to those guys in Hungary--the "Oldtimer" webpage that someone recently pointed out?
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There are a lot of long faces leaving no reserve auctions and they're not the buyers. If you have a medium priced car or one that has a smaller following, that sort of auction may not be your best choice. Some cars sell for more than their real value but many morer sell for far less than it costs to restore. The recent BJ auction is a prime example.
100 K to 150 K is not really out of line for a full, top notch, restoration. It can be done for less but a lot of that depends on the condition of the car before you start. Most of the increase in resoration costs can be found in the rising costs of vinate parts. I used to buy 190SL motors mounts ( same part that's used as a trans mount for 113's ) for about $45.00 and now they're suddenly over $200.00 They can be found for less but my point is there are many parts that you can only get through MB and those are the ones that have cazy prices. All of these little bits start to add up over time.
There was a time, not so long ago, that you could simply paint the car, put a top and interior on it and after a few fixes, it was a restored car. Now that there are examples of nicely restored cars to compare your car to, suddenly your car doesn't look so hot.
Ten years ago, regardless of how you cut it, you needed to spend at least 45 - 50 K to have a nice looking car. I imagine it's closer to 65 K now and rising all the time. Having the engine bay painted with nice detail along with an engine rebuild is a minium of 15K, and it can often be 20 K depending on what's needed for the rebuild. If the inner fenders need to be replaced, it will be a lot more.
How would you like to be the guy who just sold that car for 40K?
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How would you like to be the guy who just sold that car for 40K?
That's the thing: given the market, there is very little chance that one will recoup the cost of a high end restoration. The ones making the money are the professionals that restore the car as they charge for time and expertise no matter what. And the ones making the benefit are the ones that buy a fully restored car for a fraction of its total cost (initial purchase + restoration), enjoy it a few years and resell it with a benefint as the market has gone up. In that equation, you don't want to be the one who initially bought the car and paid for its restoration.
If one does most of the work himself, costs are going down but even there, you may just balance what you spent financially and give all your work for free.
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Almost 1000 views so I guess it will go high - near $15k?
Good guess that wasn't too far off! It sold for $13,100.
Now for Bob's sake I hope the buyer is not a fraud.
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I'd suggest somewhere between $12K and $15K, and even that is by someone with a lot of money and a lot of time to devote to the project.
Amazing. Hope he gets paid, the buyer knows what he's in for, and that whatever the intent, it gets done!
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So it turns out chassis #15 will be going to Italy.
As chance would have it, I just bought another early car, this time it's chassis #76! Cosmetically it's a lot nicer than #15 but the undercarriage is not as solid. Has similar "early car" design elements but this one has the bonus of a factory Kinder Seat.
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Hi Bob,
let's hope you don't get paid in Lira ;D ;D
#76 pix please!
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let's hope you don't get paid in Lira ;D ;D
:D
Will have pix by this time next week, this one I'm going to want to clean up a bit
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Italy? I thought they were in deep finacial do-do.
There's lots of money out there - but not everywhere. Some corporations are making record profits right now so it's coming from somewhere.
Anyone who thinks that restoration shops are getting rich these days is not getting the full story. RM restores a lot of very high end cars, some jobs are over a million dollars but the real money is in high end auctions. I bet restorations are only about 15% of their yearly gross.
The smaller operations are just getting by. If you do 100K restorations your exspenses will be higher because the work is that much more demanding.
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Here are some pics. The car is altogether more presentable than #15, but has some rust issues beneath that will need repair. A lot of expense was put towards the brake and clutch hydraulics in this car, as well as a new fuel pump, it actually runs and drives very well. It will go on ebay tomorrow at no reserve.
https://picasaweb.google.com/pagoda113/1963Mercedes230SLChassis76?authkey=Gv1sRgCNKyi6TqyYPIVw#slideshow/5715069564342084306
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I just got some info from the Classic Center on car #76, apparently its original color was "Blue-Green" code 270, which I've never seen listed as available for the Pagoda.
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Hi Bob
that is odd - according to this site: http://www.bekkoame.ne.jp/~mtor/mbcodedsc.html
color code 270 wasn't available until 1978. ???
Will #76 go to Europe too? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/160752397036
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Yes, pretty interesting. Mike Kunz told me he's seen a W111 in this color with a cognac interior and said it was striking. #76's data card shows a black hardtop (040), so that would have been quite the package. Hopefully it will be faithfully restored, the high bidder is in Germany.
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I am traveling and not able to check my color book, but I did a quick look at paintscratch.com, and they do have a listing for 270 for 1963??
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i did some looking through my various paint books and paint sheets, and have references to DB 270 in the 1963 to 1965 year range. These are from PPG, Acme and Martin Senour (all USA paint producers of the period). Curiously, the Glasurit book I have does not have the DB 270 reference???
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That's a nicely worded advert and someone's got a bargain in my view. i wish my 5 speed was that cheap!
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... and someone's got a bargain in my view.
That's what I was thinking. This car may have some rust compared to the earlier one, but globally I think it will require much less money to bring to a satisfactory condition than the earlier one. Even by paying $2000 more or so for this car, I think the buyer of the red car is way ahead copared to the other one.
There seem to be a bottom price for any pagoda as long it is complete, or nearly complete, which is in the 10,000/13,000 range, even if some of them will require 20,000 more to restore.