Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: JamesL on September 15, 2011, 13:26:57
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::)
I left my car with Colin (Stickandrudderman) yesterday morning (with a little "to do" list) and got a call last evening asking me to come in this morning. You just know it's not going to be good news, good news can be given over the phone! ;D
So I spent an hour with Colin this morning as he went through his long-ish clipboard list (and wandered aruond and under the car on the ramp) of items that were in addition to/resulted from my to do list...
Leaking crankshaft seal
leaking gearbox
leaking fuel tank - and I can confirm, the leaks are indeed keeping the underside of the car from going rusty!
rear suspension rubbers all perished/perishing - perhaps to do with the oil....
kingpins need doing
rear brake disks are worn/blue
exhaust - from the drivers seat back is shot
engine mounts are perishing
Now the primary reason I took the car in was my long known (and long delayed) issue of rust around the headlamp ( http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=9635.0 ), bonnet hinge and on the inner wing around the shock tower. A year or two back this was patched as there was rust directly under the brake servo and it failed inspection with rust that close to a structural bit of the car
Colin pointed out a few little bits and bobs of rust in other places that are not bad and can be nipped in the bud relatively easily, but I am still left with the big issue (in addition to addressing most of the oily bits) -
leave the wing for a further year?
patch the rust/wing/bowl ?
cut the whole quarter off and re-do it "properly"?
Value added to the car is, obviously, very little whatever I do! Value taken out of wallet, likely considerable! :o I could delay until the lotto draw tomorrow night but have a feeling that won't help! ::)
None of these things are critical, must do (fuel tank and structural rust perhaps aside!). They are all somewhat optional but then again, so is owning the car in the first place. Over to you lot for your opinions (well, all of you except Stick... :D)
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Fix what you can a little bit at a time. If the car is still drivable then drive your rolling restoration. My car has a few leaks and needs and I am doing what I can but I still drive it and enjoy it.
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Tosh, I would look after the mechanical first and worry about the body later. If the mechanical is up to snuff you can still drive it around with confidence, as Brad mentions. Body can wait for another day. Doesn't matter how great the body looks if you can't drive it, unless you like having it parked in your garage. ;D ;)
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Hey James. Hang in there. Your car is still a keeper! I agree that you should do it in stages to keep your sanity (and wallet) in tact. However, there are several on the list that I'd probably get out of the way now. Painful ones I'm afraid... 1. Brakes 2. Fuel leaks 3. King-pins 4. Exhaust system
Things like oil leaks can wait (unless its pouring out). Engine mounts (unless they are really bad).
Now the controversial one: Rust. While it never sleeps, it can be sedated. I believe it can wait a while (unless its making the car unsafe) -- you'll know when you are ready to tackle that one.
This is all coming from someone who believes these cars should be driven and enjoyed first, and restored to perfection a distant second (unless you are loaded or rather lucky in which case you can do both)... Best of luck.
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James, Sorry to hear your Pagoda news we ALL dread! :o
I have no personal experience with Colin F, however, have you considered a second opinion?
Have you considered taking it to Roger Edwards ? ( Their opinion & a quote! )
You've got me thinking about mine now... :-\
Keep us updated & good luck ;)
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Tosh - you've probably been able to see the problems with your own eyes. Not sure how handy you are yourself, but you are probably capable yourself of doing:
- the brake disks
- exhaust
- engine mounts
- possibly the suspension rubber
thus saving on labor for these items, learning a bit about the car in the process, and feeling good about having done these things yourself. The freed-up budget could then be used for the things you can't tackle yourself, like the kingpins, fuel leak and fixing that rust around the headlights (there are good repair panels that aren't so expensive by themselves). I would approach it that way and 'bite the bullet' on most things, only leaving a few less urgent things to when your wallet has recovered ...
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You forgot the leaking steering box!
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You're really NOT helping here! :D
But yes, I did forget the leaking power steering box! :'(
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Well, James--this is how restorations begin.
If you've got a good list of work, from a reputable mechanic, this is a good thing, not a bad thing. You can, as has been observed here by others, pick and choose what to do, and when, depending on your budget and time.
Leaks are so annoying, because the root cause--a worn or broken seal in many cases--is very inexpensive. Getting that seal replaced is often very expensive because of time. Consider the transmission's front main seal, for example...
Be forewarned, the car has not come apart yet. There will be more discovered along the way. There always is...
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Hi Tosh,
Sorry to hear about the problems you've been having but it's not all bad news, when I changed the suspension rubbers and engine mounts on my car the ride and handling was transformed so it will feel like a new car as and when these jobs are done.
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I agree that having a qualified person develop the list was the best place to start.
As for priorities:
Safety
Cash Flow
Try not to have to take things apart more than once.
It's always an adventure ;D ;D ;D
Norm
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Tosh,
just to make you feel better... I've been there, done that list and a few more bits and bobs (all suspension rubbers, engine mounts, king pins, a couple of the steering arms, brakes, new master cylinder, all hoses, brake and fuel lines, stainless steel exhaust.....), couple of years ago... total expense (sitting down?) EUR 9000. Car drove much better after that, suspension and handling noticeably tighter.
This year had a much bigger problem, with the cylinder head. That's fixed now after a long time and will pick up car tomorrow.
Rust behind headlamps (have that too, of course) and tatty interior not sorted... rally season is coming up and us rally drivers don't care too much about all that stuff, as long as it goes well!
Peter
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James,
a few months ago when I joined the forum and was looking to buy a Pagoda you were the very first member to offer sensible advice and have done so on numerous occasions since. If I had read of your cars current problems and the back threads regarding the past couple of MOT's I feel I wouldn't have bothered spending so much money buying a potential bank breaker!, but, happily I didn't and love the whole Pagoda experience (so far), however painful it may be at times. You must be so dedicated to your car and are a credit to the cause!
It's such a shame that the popularity has lifted the price of these rusty cars (UK), along with the price of parts and specialist repairs to such dizzy heights that pushes many enthusiasts out of the market. Perhaps the cars with the funny lights & bumpers and the steering wheel on the wrong side (USA) are going to be the best bet for the UK in the future? the climate is kinder to the bodywork, they look good value and there appears plenty of them. All we need is to go back to a $2 Pound, have no import duties (10%) and less UK VAT (currently 20%) and the boats should be full!
Good Luck with your repairs
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Hi James,
I guess the cost of keeping these cars is proportionate to their value.
Unfortunately, the values are rising and as a result so are the parts and hourly rate that can be charges. An 300SL is a classic example where just the name gets a 50% mark up in price. If you are a long term keeper then the increase in value goes against you in the repairs dept. Good for those that look at their car as a $$ sign and wanting big increases, and there are many like that, but they are not necessarily in for the long haul.
Good luck, at least you know the value is there.
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Hi James,
I guess the cost of keeping these cars is proportionate to their value.
I think this is true, although I've never understood quite why. For example, parts for my El Camino are generally at around 25%, sometimes much less, of the price of similar Pagoda parts. I would expect Pagoda parts are generally better, but not 4 times as good. For example, I just got 4 new Monroe shocks, the rear ones adjustable, for les than EUR 100. One Bilstein for the Pagoda is EUR 130, a set of 4 EUR 494 at SLS. Maybe it's just sheer production numbers (although there's tons of that era Mercedes around).
The labor cost is probably even more influenced by what sort of car (meaning price range) the enthusiast brings into the shop. Although more complicated cars require more specialised knowledge and skill, i.e. cost, again I'm not sure the differences are that significant.
Anyway, Tosh, have you considered tackling any of this yourself? When I was a teenager with a small budget and a Spitfire, I had no choice, and found out wrenching is fun (most of the time) and less difficult than you might expect.
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There is rarely a way for any restoration to cost less than the value of the car, so put that notion out of your head. Owning these cars, unless you're just a flipping dealer, is a money losing proposition. There are exceptions but not really for those of us who somehow fall in love with bits of tin and rubber.
Tosh, you're a big, healthy, intelligent fellow. As Cees says, you can do a lot of this yourself. I'm sure Colin understands the reality of economics and, from all we'ver heard about him, will work with you. The hardest obstacle to overcome is the fear of goofing it up. If you look at the books, pay close attention to how it comes apart, talk to your great neighbor resoursces like Naj and Jamie, and take your time, you can do this. You'll probablay spend three times the hours a professional would but it will be ultimately rewarding in measures that are not found in the wallet.
Don't sweat the whole list. Compartmentalize your thinking and prioritize the threats. My priority is always brakes. Starting is important but stopping is essential. Brakes are a simple, logical, mechanical system. The fuel tank leak is an obvious priority and my be something you want to just replace. Installing a new tank is easier than repairing an old one, it forestalls future problems and the labor is the same or less. Exhaust can be fun if you like reciprocating saws, hammers, and a great opportunity to take out frustrations with brute force. The suspension rubbers in the back are easy. The front is more difficult and should be done when you pay to have the kingpins done by themselves.
I don't recall seeing the rust on your car. You might consider products like Rust Bulllet as a temporary measure to buy time. This stuff paints on right over rust and converts the oxide to an inert substance. It deprives the iron of oxygen for new oxide to form. It might just slow down the rusting long enough to let your budget catch up to the expense of a proper repair.
Good luck. I hope to see your car again at the Euro Tour next year
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To illustrate the joys (and downside) of doing things yourself. As most know, I acquired the El Camino from the 'My Name is Earl' tv-series. The Swiss DMV report was that the rear shocks needed attention, and so I got new ones from the US that arrived a couple of days ago. Now I've never worked on a car like this, and also never worked on an air suspension system.
Today was the big day to replace the rear shocks; they are inflated through a system of air hoses that run from the shocks to a central air valve located in the rear bumper, from anywhere between 20 and 150 psi, to compensate for carrying heavy loads.
After studying how the old system was put in, and reading the instructions that came with the new shocks, I tackled the job. Actually the most difficult part turned out to be the top fastening nuts and bolts on the shocks; almost impossible to get a wrench up there. Everything else was just a matter of going through the motions and following instructions. It ended up taking a few hours, but the shocks are in, they're a vast improvement over the old ones in terms of suspension behavior, and they maintain their air pressure meaning I installed all the air hoses, seals and valve correctly.
A garage in Geneva quoted $1,200 for this work; it ended up costing me $200, a couple of hours of work, lots of dirt in my face laying underneath the car, having a wrench fall on my forehead a couple of times, some frustration and, in the end, great satisfaction of having accomplished the job by myself, and with great results. I also have seen how everything back and down there fits together, I spotted a small crack in a fuel hose so that's next on the menu, and I now know everything I need to know about the air suspension system, which is never a bad thing (for example, to spot potential future problems when they occur).
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Estimate in, decision made and Colin has already retired to Croatia ;D (a couple of weeks holiday)
We are patching the front wing rather than going for an amputation/prosthetic of that quarter of the car. I saw it yesterday with both headlamps out and the bowls look in far better condition (apart from oragnic matter) than I thought they would.
Cannot argue with the detail in the estimate and so we are going the whole hog - oily bits and shiny bits. It helps that we finally sold our old house this week, it's been empty but "on the market" for a year and so has been costing mucho money that has now been recouped. I should put the proceeds into paying down the mortgage on the new place but where's the fun in that?? ;D
Already looking forwards to getting the car back (having said I was in no great hurry!). If it's not all done by the time Stick returns from his holiday perhaps we'll get the odd picture!
Thanks for your suggestions and advice - I'd love to do much of this myself but I am time poor as it is and learning a bunch of (very satisfying) new skills is something that SWMBO and 5 year old are not overly tolerant of if it impacts time with them/making their lives easier ::)
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Popped in on the way to the office and had a nose/chat. The chap that's doing the bodywork showed me what he's done/doing and the pictures he took along the way - hopefully I can get hold of them!
The passenger side wing (inner/outer) is "new" (car was restored about 15 years ago) but the drivers side not. The area around the shock turret he took back to bare metal, and holes and got his welding gear on it. It would have failed it's MOT as the structural integrity of the whole area was gone. The whole of the inner arch has been re-sealed properly - not back to body colour but black. At this point, if it keeps water out/rust at bay......The rust around the headlamp area was cut out - it had been done once before but not properly (thus the rust was returning) and was full of filler. He's brassed in new metal and then has skimmed it. The finish will be at the bodyshop.
When I took it in, Colin said the gaps around the bonnet were not right: That could be because one of the hinges was attached to as much rust as metal. So that's been fixed properly
He was digging around the passenger footwell with a screwdriver when I got there and there was a hole in the floor of that, and going back into the sill area from the rear of the front arch - Oh to live in Texas!!!
Bonnet was sitting on the soft-top, door panels were in the boot and dust everywhere. Oh, and as I suspected, the soft-top frame is out of alignment and may be twisted
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Here's the headlamp bowl and hinge area after repair but not finishing
and the bottom picture is what became of the "poking the passenger footwell with a screwdriver". At the right angle, I could see my handbrake :o
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Nice to see the progress Tosh, keep the pictures coming.
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One step forwards.... rot in the rear arches too :-[ :'(
Will go have a look in the morning and take my camera (and sedatives)
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Ok, first the good news: passenger footwell arch area "after" work
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However, down the back, things are not looking so good. The near(passenger) side is the first picture and the white stuff is filler/bondo so that'll be fun to get out. The seam around the top of the arch is shot too. Part of the metalwork has already been cut (that's rear end of the sill area) and replaced but lots more to do!!
The next three pictures are off (drivers) side and in the front of the rear arch - going to the sill area. The chisel shot loosened the seal, which I was then able to pull off the whole piece in one with my fingers (2nd shot). 10 seconds later, we had a bit of a hole.... seam on this arch is also shot...
Am guessing we may have a cost over-run!
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On my way back this afternoon I stopped by. The nearside (passenger) rear arch was the focus of attention today
He's cut out 4 old repairs (sitting on the disc/hub) and tacked/welded in new metal on the inner vertical wall of the arch where it meets the underside
Cleaned all the old filler/bondo off the inside of the arch back to bare metal and found an old patch way in the top of the arch that like others in the past, clearly was not done properly. So that's going to get cut out and replaced. Then waxoyl behind, black scmutz the outside and off to the final arch (which I fear will be the worst and I will pop by on Friday!). Oh, and we already know the softtop (and possibly the well) will have to come out for that
It's amzing that I thought the worst of it would be the headlamp area as that was the most visible. But like lipstick on a pig.... This is kind of like watching a train-wreck. I am compelled to see what a mess it's in and the magic of the repair. But I know it'll all end horribly when it's time to pay up! However, what is clear, is that without help, another couple of winters (even with very sparing use) would mean this would be a far far bigger job
It's also clear that if I ever want to sell my car, here would not be a good place to advertise it ;) ;D
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Friday morning update... things slowed a bit in as much as half the axle is off to change the rubbers etc but the metalwork on the nearside (left) rear arch is now all 2mm metal rather than a mix of metal, filler, rust and air. I am getting shiny black trailing arms etc though! (I am so easily pleased - a bit of shine and I am happy!)
Here's the arch before the re-seal. To my untrained eye, it looks like a pretty decent job!!!
I am still of the view that the other side will be "worse" and so will brace myself for the visit on the trip home this afternoon....
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Oh, and he's found more (I am blaming Michael Salemi for this - he said it'd be worse than first thought and he was right!! >:( ;))
This time it's passenger footwell/floor but cannot quite work out of it's forwards or rearwards of the front of the seat. Clearly been patched before but clearly using tin foil rather than 2mm steel!
The brass/braising is under the sill
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Rear arch now all finished - 3 down, 1 to go but before we get there, we had a look at the rust in the floor - right under the seat crossmember. So with the seat out and some of the floor lining up, we can see (go on, guess what we can see...)
rust (and the hole that's been cut). So the liner will come off, the metal scraped/cleaned and then rustproofed
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Your initial list of mechanicals was not that bad... Its probably what you can expect of a clean Pagoda.
Bodywork on the other hand is always an area where once you start.....
Any mercedes that I have started rust remedy on has ended up being a full restoration.. especially my W123 and now a W124 300TE AMG I just purchased.
So a 40 year old Mercedes has little chance...
The issue you have is that you are paying a garage to do it and this lot will not be cheap at an hourly labour rate.
I am lucky that I have a garage and access to good bodsyshops/welders..
However now that you have started you have to finish!
This forum would be the best place to advertise... Many would just cover the rust back up and sell the car...
p.s. u sure you are using 2mm steel? Sounds awfully thick!
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Well, to be precise, 1.8mm for the box sections and 1.5mm for panels.
This car is a classis example of how, over the years, most 113s have endured a significant period where they were not worth very much money and consequently only cheap repairs were entertained by their owners. Now that the cars are achieving a somewhat higher status it's becoming commonly necessary to undo all of the poor work that's been done in the past and try to restore or even improve the cars original strength and appearance.
The problem I constanly face, and it's refreshing to deal with someone like Tosh who has his eyes and ears open, is that owners have just paid £30,000 for a car that is basically a bunch of old baked bean tins welded/glued/fibreglassed together into something that resembles the shape of the original panel, some paint tossed over it and some unscrupulous car dealer says "voila!" here's a really nice example of a very well kept and maintained Pagoda!
This is exactly why I repair cars for a living and not sell them. I like to sleep at night!
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Oi! I paid that 8 years ago! ;D
I'll swing by in the morning to check your tan!
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update:
The offside (right) rear arch is now cleaned up and work is well underway. It's perhaps not as bad as suspected but the whole front section of the lower part of the arch (backing on to the sill) has been cut out and is being replaced (Pic 1)
The top of the arch around the seam is not as bad as I first feared (pic 2). What's the indent for? Is it for the boot hinges or the softtop well?
The final point - to follow up on Stick's comment yesterday: the inside of the drivers side sill is dry. Some surface rust but dry. As in no wax protection whatsoever. All other box sections he's seen have been done but that has clearly never been touched/rust-proofed (pic 3) and I have dodged a bullet as there's a little surface rust but nothing serious along the whole drivers side box section/sill :-\
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Spoke too soon
need some work doing on that sill where it meets the floorpan around the seat area
whoop de doo! ::)
Friday Update - There was a strip - about 2" wide and 12" long cut out from the bottom of the sill just infront of the jacking point. An MOT (inspection) failure had it been found as that would count as "structural". It was found while cleaning it up and it had a good half dozen rust holes along the "crease".
Cut, welded, and sealed inside and out. Another job done.
Bodywork is about there: the last arch was finished yeterday and was being selaed this morning. I kind of wish it was body coloured but am of the view that unless I do a David Brough that's not going to happen on my watch
Axle needs a bit of work and then we can get on to the oily bits.... ::)
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Another day, more dollars :o
Kingpins have been done. They'd been assembled incorrectly last time they were apart: the two washers were the wrong way round so that the grooved washer was not locked in place by the small locking pin. Result, crushed pin and increased wear on the kingpin itself
Rear brake discs replaced and all pads changed. I have the Carbotech pads (see Jim Villiers PUB driveability video). It seems the pads are riveted on to their back plate and this is illegal here (I guess fear of the rivets snapping and pads flying off their plates). Bosch are back on...
While in there, the wheel bearings have been stripped and regreased. Next job is the engine mounts, crankshaft seal leak and gearbox leak. Then do the back axle rubbers, fuel tank and exhaust Drop the car to do the floor rust under the seats and off she goes to get dusted and some new paint in places
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Tosh, impressive progress. I am truly amazed by how quickly the rust issues were addressed. I am sure the costs are not so heartening but your down time sure appears to be minor. I am faced with some similar corrosion issues but always assumed (and saw borne out) that such work would take several months not weeks. Have you tallied the labor hours for the body work thus far?
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I'm guessing someone is doing that tally ::) but the car went on the ramp on the 22nd and is still on it. Most of the work so far appears to be one chap (Janis) as I am guessing Colin has other customers! (A burgundy 230 and G Wagen amongst others in there today). Every time I go in, Janis is there, under my car so he is close to three full weeks, which I assume is close on 120 hours*. I told Colin I was in no great hurry but he's running a busy shop so hasn't the room to have it sit in a corner gathering dust (it's on a ramp instead and has not been on it's own wheels for those three weeks)
Janis is Latvian and tells me that when he had his own garage he had to fabricate whole body panels as they couldn't get the parts. Of course, I have no idea what these looked like but he does seem a bit of a whizz with the sheet metal.
(*I do wish I'd not done that calculation!)
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Update
Car in body shop and been prepped for a front end and rear quarter respray
Colin called me this morning to tell me that the car was not resprayed in the correct colour when it was restored 15+ years ago and matching the random colour that's on the car is, shall we say, going to be very tough.
So my choice is either a 2 tone car or.... yep, you guessed it. :o :o
(and will still have a 2 tone car when the hard top goes on, inside front wings etc... :(.)
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OK, here's what's been done!
Rusty bits (see above)
Engine and gearbox mounts
Rubbers to rear suspension
rear discs and pads
Overhaul front stub axles/kingpins
Stainless exhaust fitted
New fuel tank & sender/filler gaskets
Crankshaft oil seal
Strip, "re-mirror" and rebuild headlamps
Cold start mech (see the vid) & thermo time switch
New seals to power steering box
NS door glass & guides
Wheel alignment
a service
MOT
and a full (exterior) respray
I shall pick the car up next week but I popped by a couple of days ago and it looked fantastic. I am REALLY looking forward to driving it. And yes, it was a little over the original estimate (in bodywork and ending up with a full respray) but having seen the work going on - and knowing how thoroughly the car has been gone over, I cannot complain about the bill: I'd rather not be paying it but as the bank manager said "if we have the car, this is the price we have to pay". For once, SWMBO is right! ;D
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Sounds like you're on the home straight James!, can I ask what renovation went into the headlamps and was it a specialist repair as I've got some scabby ones too!
Neil
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The reflectors were in a bad way on the headlamps and one fog/one indicator. Colin said he could refurb them as new are NLA so they've been refurbed. Not that I have seen them (or the results) but I THINK they were re-coated....
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Be interesting to see the results... thanks
Neil
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I'm sure if you ping Colin a note he'll tell you what's been done - my bill just shows strip/rebuild but I know there was some reflector work in there too. (also had new seals to keep the damp (and a big spider!) out)
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In the end Tosh I didn't have to do any re-plating. Once the headlights were stripped they, for the most part, just needed cleaning and the adjusters freeing up. there was one badly corroded fog lamp reflector so I fitted a NOS one. This wasn't exactly the same as the 113 one as the "umbrella" was different so I had to de-rivet it and rivet on one of the correct type and make some wiring changes to make it fit. Only one headlamp needed new seals, the other was re-used.
I do have a trick however for using vacuum deposition to re-plate the reflectors were it necessary but it's very expensive.
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Any updates guys?