Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: Garry on December 18, 2011, 03:24:59
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Now I know you all like looking at photos of Pagodas for sale and itemising all the non standard items etc so have a try at these three photos. Larry (Gnuface) is having a look for me next Tuesday.
So far I can see cracked dash and steering wheel, incorrect lables on engine, wrong firewall pad ;) no sun visors? wrong radio, under hood colour.
All comments welcome
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Garry,
Good luck. Is the plan to leave it in the UK and drive it around for the Pagoda event next year??
Yes, yes, yes, there are a number of non standard items, but I will leave that be.
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That is the plan at this point of time.
Ministeress of Finance has been asking me to look for an auto for some time and with the Euro tour coming up and good exchange rates in our favour it is an opportunity to buy and use there and then ship. Seller offered to store it for me until then. At least I don't have to do a left to right conversion but I know the next step, the Ministeress will say too many cars and one will have to go. That was what I was trying to do with the Jag from US I used at PUB this year. It was the correct colour but should have been an auto, I forgot, or that is what I am pleading with the Minister. ;D
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I noticed the steering wheel seems to be on the wrong side ;D. Just kidding I know some of you prefer it that way.
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In the picture of the engine bay, the air filter hose is wrong, the distributor has been replaced with something much newer, and the bracket that holds the throttle cross shaft is on backwards. None of these things would stop me from buying a car like this. RHD might though.
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Hi Garry, just thought I would join in with this before my visit.
What has been previously spotted plus:-
No spot welds on wing (fender)
Not original pipe clips.
No top battery frame.
CSS painted.
Can't see headlight notch.
Not sure about bracket for windscreen washer bottle?
Larry
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Hi Larry,
What is a CSS please ?
Steve.
PS Looks like a non-standard inlet manifold to air cleaner box hose too. If it really matters !!
No blue centre to brake fluid reservoir cap. (I am told my car should have one of those !)
Washer bottle bracket is the same pattern as on my '64 230, not sure what colour it should be. the cap is identical to mine.
My car has a metal channel/tube through which all the HT leads are routed, I don't know whether this car should have that or whether it was deleted in favour of the later external clips by this age..?
Looks like the dash top has some additional fastenings on the top too.
The windscreen wiper motor looks to have been sprayed black all over.
Looks a nice car...
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Hi Steve,
Constant Speed Solenoid. It is mounted on a bracket above the inlet manifold.
It is only found on auto's and cars with aircon and compensates for the drop in revs
when put in gear or aircon is turned on. It simply pushes the throttle linkage a little
to increase revs.
Larry
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Thanks Larry !
What colour should it be please, mine is now painted black with a gold end, it stripped beautifully but started to rust wherever it was touched, if it is supposed to be metal coloured I suppose I could re-strip it and use a satin varnish - I didn't want to get it plated for obvious reasons.
I am not aiming for nth degree concourse in any event just a straight clean and pretty car that is reasonably correct, hose clips etc do not bother me although spot welds and notches do ! I guess we all have our particular level...
S.
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Garry:
These comments are from a late 280SL guy so please confirm for a 230SL:
The color inside the hood usually (always?) matches the exterior and engine bay colour...black may be a re-paint error or maybe the hood is not original to the car...may have an embossed number to verify originality....not super important but a new hood might have been installed because of an accident or rust damage?
The missing Sunvisors may prevent driving the car...in many places this is a safety issue...new pair can run as much as US$1,000.
Have not seen pushpins or rivets on a dash cover before.
The trunk lid may need a bit of positioning as the space between the lid and the body seems a bit wide. The back end of the hood (over the engine compartment) seems bit high...might have to turn down the bumper post for a better position.
Also, your signature says "looking for...any blue" Pagoda. You may not have noticed, but this car is not blue! 0)
It is however very lovely color, perhaps Tunis Beige, one of my favored colors.
Richard M, NYC
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Steve, I think it should be plated but as you say difficult to do without stripping it down
which I believe is near impossible. Mine is a little rusty also. I think there is spray paint
available which is supposed to look like the yellow zinc plating.
Larry
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Thanks Larry, I have seen that paint...Enough said about it. I think I shall retain my black one as it is a nice contrast, has an "original quality" finish and a bit of detail. It makes a nice contrast to the acres of aluminium coloured stuff under the bonnet too.
I think that maybe I have yellow zinc plated some items that should not be but I can always get the errant parts redone in the correct colour when the Gods of originality descend on my poor girl on her show outings next year. :(
AND I like my polished brass expansion tank too, of course I know it isn't right but you just don't see brass on modern cars, I did it myself, it took a whole day with nitromors, a media blaster and a drill polishing kit. NEVER again !!! ;)
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I suspect the engine is not original.
There is a casting # (maybe '8') visible between the hoses on the head.
The 230 head has no #s cast there.
I wonder if the left cross shaft bracket has been turned around to get a new wear surface on the cross shaft? Or maybe just incorrectly installed as the good Dr said.
Naj
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Garry, despite all that it is a nice looking car. Unless I missed it in someones post, it is also missing an exterior rear view mirror and the tail lights are incorrect. Did you get any pictures of the underside?
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Garry:
Just a general observation - it appears to be a restoration done to a budget by someone not particularly concerned with originality.
Right wing replaced - sloppy job - reason? - can't see left wing in pictures -
Booster too glossy
No yellow cad or replating apparent - fuel lines appear to be just cleaned up.
Are the wheels black? can't really tell.
Incorrect fuel cap.
Leather on seats incorrect finish - pleats not done correctly - padding not correct.
Door panels appear to have been padded.
Carpet - incorrect color and weave.
Seats are in backwards - or is that a rhd thing?? (Don't think so)
Doesn't appear to have underdash panels in place.
No ashtray.
Of course, rust is the primary concern on any of these cars.
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and the tail lights are incorrect
The taillights look like a match to those in the Tech Manual for modified lights for Australia...so these should be OK Downunder.
Richard M, NYC
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Excuse my ignorance of RHD pagodas but is that the correct location of the emergency brake handle?
John
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John, Yes
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Thanks Larry, that must be quite a stretch when driving with a manual transmission in hilly locations. Also might be a little awkward when out on a date and reaching over to apply the handbrake:-)
In looking at the pictures I noticed the three rubber "bumpers" were missing from the crimp at the top of the firewall. And as it seems to be the case of most restorations, things always seem to be too "shinny" in the engine bay. Sure there are lots of other things when the car is visually examined.
John
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Non-correct seat covers, right front fender replaced, poor shut lines on hood and where rf fender meets passenger door, probably a replacement hood, I could keep going but won't.
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Wow !
I wonder if original cars straight out of the factory would all have passed our critical observations ! Panel gaps, trim fit etc.
Seriously, I really do think we could rubbish a factory car...
Any opinions ??
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Wow !
I wonder if original cars straight out of the factory would all have passed our critical observations !
Any opinions ??
Hello Steve,
I have posted pictures of my engine bay (taken the night I drove it home from the dealer and about 6 months later) and it certainly didn't look as good as some of the restorations I have seen. Some of the cars exterior paint has blemishes (dust particles) that were not caught by the inspectors. Also the painted areas behind the front bumper were not buffed to a high lustre. This was true of the engine compartment as well with paint runs here and there.
John
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Thanks John, it is great to know that even the uber efficient Mercedes men didn't get everything right all of the time. Any comment on trim fit, panel gaps etc or were all these 100% on your original car ?
S.
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... a new hood might have been installed because of an accident or rust damage?
Richard M, NYC
The hood being aluminum a replacement would not be due to rust but accident damage could be.
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Any comment on trim fit, panel gaps etc or were all these 100% on your original car ?
S.
The fit of the body panels fit was (and is) flawless. About .13" (3mm) around the hood, doors, and boot lid. Amazing when you think this was done before robots and lasers. Also the areas of the fenders that were welded then silver soldered are undetectable. My friends at the time were always amazed to see what seemed to be just one piece of body work surrounding the hood and rear lid:-) The interior was also perfectly fitted other then a slight mismatch on the glove box door (which of have seen on other 280SLs). Also the under dash panels never quite fit right. To me, even with these few "flaws" the car was and is perfect in every regard. The thrill is still there after 43 years of ownership:-)
John
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You are really fortunate to have custody of such a special vehicle John...Or maybe you were just possessed of extraordinary foresight !
Thanks for the info, I always wondered what value the panel gaps should actually be.
I agree by the way, automotive art....
S.
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Thanks all for comments
Some really good pickups here and a lot that I did not see that should have been obvious. The tail lights are correct for here with orange signal indicators a local requirement even if I imported it. I had to change my own cars tail lights that were all red to get a roadworthy prior to registration. The buttons on the dash may be for a toneau cover?. The sunvisor area looks odd and I cannot make out what the clips are.
Now as for the Blue car. Well I convinced the Ministeress for Finance that getting the right car if it is not blue is more important than the colour. It is a Tunis Beige but I don't have any under car photos. Larry has access to a hoist to have a look for me.
The engine change is a bit of a concern if it is not a 230 engine, something I can check with the numbers easily.
And a few more photos. To my eye on my computer the dash does not look like Tunis Beige?
Garry
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I assume you have someone in the UK who's able to inspect it for you?
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Hi Stick,
I thought of you but Larry (Gnuface) was the closest and had a look for me today and I am awaiting his comments. If I do buy it what I do need is for someone to "wake it up" in about August next year.
Garry
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Bondo is dripping off the inner fender weld area. I avoid those cars like the plague.
John
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The funny thing is that this car sold for £12200 in Oct 2008 - With the hardtop!
http://classiccars.brightwells.com/viewdetails.php?id=1082 (http://classiccars.brightwells.com/viewdetails.php?id=1082)
Does not make sense to me as it is now being offered at nearly 3 times that without the hardtop
http://classiccars.brightwells.com/viewdetails.php?id=2760 (http://classiccars.brightwells.com/viewdetails.php?id=2760)
You need to be a detective these days
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The car has had a lot of work done since 2008 and 3 years have passed.
Both of those things would legitimize a price increase.
How much of an increase is always left up to the buyer.
Given the spectrum of 40+ cars out there, this one sure looks nice to me.
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well, the engine has been out for a spray job in the intervening years, and various cosmentics (eg seatbelts) have been addressed
But yes, that really is some return!!
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The end of the story on the car is I decided not to purchase it . What with a gear box that was now going to be overhauled and the engine displaying poor compression, lots of new panels but no full restoration indicating that there is probably still rust in there. The seller, a dealer was very negotiable and an immediate drop of 5000 pounds and then the offer to overhaul the gear box and then to pick up labour for an engine overhaul made me even more wary.
And the major stumbling block as pointed out to me several times, it is not Blue ::) ::)
Meanwhile I have found a very good rust free 230SL in good original condition and a driver here in outback of Sydney that I am going to view later this month and it is Horizion Blue ;D ;D ;D
A friend has driven it and said that it is very good. We will see.
Garry
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So do we know what happened to the "gold" 230? Did someone else buy it?
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Still on e-bay for £37500
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Hi, Larry,
Did it have the correct 230 (M127) engine?
Naj
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Spot the non standard items.
Now I know from the last car I got serious about you were all able to give me some really good data on the errors etc and I did not proceed, well here is the one that I am going to look at as the potential buy, tomorrow!
Note its Light Blue '65 Aug 230SL, a good start ;D
Any comments appreciated
Garry
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I'm no expert on the 230s, but just a couple of things I see (which should NOT stop you from buying)
Black door pull; should match the interior color (mine did once, in Bamboo); ditto on the window winder insert? Or not?
One piece wheel covers, that car would have had 2-piece
Should a car with an "ivory" steering wheel also have an Ivory shift knob, even on an auto? Or not?
Are those non standard, after-market, non-retractable 3-point safety belts?
How does that AC work? Original dealer added, or sometime later?
These are just little things, and the car looks nice. With that color, RHD and Auto, I'd imagine it looks might good to Kate...now, how does it run?
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Hi Garry
it looks very neat. just to give you a bit of encourgement, if you decide not to proceed, let me know and I will buy it :)
Just do it. it is only money and the bank has plenty of it.
Hamid
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Garry,
Are those factory spot welds ... they look good in the picture.
I hope it has fender notches (just for an added bonus).
The car looks fantastic. I don't know the early cars and having a bunch of things on different sides of the car is throwing me off a little.
I believe on the earliest cars they did have black grab handle and window crank inserts, so that might be as it left the factory.
I get all excited when I am looking at a "new" car, so I bring a checklist along ... do you do that?
How close is that color to the SMS (Jag)?
It looks like there are a lot of things correct about that car !!!
GOOD LUCK !
(I hope the seller doesn't read this forum ... :D )
Mark
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Michael, Picked up on the hubcaps straight away, not sure on the door handle infills but would have thought the gear nob and seat levers should also be the ivory also. Engine has a bit of lower end pressure not too bad but price reflects that problem if it is one. There is a kindy seat in the back so not sure on the belts. Two owner, female for first 33 years. meant to be in reasonably good original condition and was classed as a 8/10+ driver. I asked a question about the Air-conditioner and Becker Mexico with cassette player in a 60's car in another area of forum.
Mark, yes has fender notches, colour very close to the SMS light Blue also.
Hamid will call if going through Canberra tomorrow with new Pagoda ;)
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Great look forward to it.
Hamid
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Looks very tidy Garry, if you want me to pop over and take a look..........................
Larry ;)
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Good looking 230. I am no expert on 230s either, but it appears that the torsion bar that holds the hood up is bent by where it rests on the left fender support. Not sure how that could have happened but maybe the hood was forced down at one time, or slipped out of the guide? Also the hood's fabric stop strap is missing.
John
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Garry.
I'm not sure, and even then it is not a deal breaker, but do not the 230's have comparatively large perforations between the pleats of the seats?
Gus
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Interesting comment Gus, The seats are supposed to be original leather as per the data card and I see that the pleated leather is perforatedbut I am not familiar with the leather in early cars. Anyone know?
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.... Also the hood's fabric stop strap is missing. ..
John,
I believe very early 230SLs did not have the strap. I am sure Achim will know.
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Garry
I may already be too late - but it looks really GOOD. With regards to the seats - I think that the adjustment wheels on the sides are from a later period, but really not an issue as the smaller ones are no longer available.
The colour combo is great. I don't think that my car (65 230 auto) has never had its steering wheel or gear knob changed. My wheel is ivory and gear knob black - so I should think what you have could be original.
Good luck with it. ;)
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Well I have purchased it.
On inspection the VIN turns out to indicate it is Aug 65 so not so early.
Have just done 300 miles in it heading home and had to stop for the night. Back in it tomorrow for another 5 - 600 miles to get it home. it ran really well but the compression test I did just before purchase was low but even over all cylinders so a ring change is probably in order some time. Now that it is dark I have not had a chance to inspect oil usage but will check first thing in the morning.
Will add more details when I get home
Garry
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Congratulations, it looks a nice one. I like the colour, similar to Alfred's.
I envy your early morning peek through the window at it! If it's still there!! (should be fine, it's not LA).
Dave
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I'm not sure if I am jealous of your car purchases or jealous of you for having a wife that allows the car purchases ;D
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Buy a 40+ year old car.
Hop in it and drive 300 miles.
Wake up and drive while the sun is warming the road and clearing up the mist (at least in my mind).
500 or 600 mile to go.
That is living !!
I'm sure "talking" with the right group of people here.
CONGRATULATIONS and thank you for sharing the experience.
Small moving space, now this ... what's next?
Those are hard acts to follow.
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Second day and about to head out. Have checked all the fluids and added some oil to the old girl. Now off to Canberra about an hours drive for breakfast and catch up with Hamid H before pushing on to the wilderness south of Canberra and a long run of about 350km through the high plains of Southern Australia then down into the forested area of Eastern Victoria and hopefully ending up tonight in a town called Sale which is about 200 km East from Melbourne. Todays drive should be 600km according to google maps.
Its been raining over night.
Hopefully there are dry roads as one thing I have noticed it that the road holding of the tyres is poor. They look ok but I think they are old and hard and tend to slide a bit both cornering and stopping in the wet.
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Hi Garry,
I do like the color! :)
Save travels and watch out for those roos!
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I met Garry this moring and saw his car.
He is an absolute gentleman. His new purchase is also fantastic. Really great colour.
Makes me want to start looking for a 230 :)
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A bit more eventful today, oil and more oil, have arrived in Sale for about 490miles today. Am having the breather checked to see if its blocked first thing in the morning at a local garage that has worked on my other Pagoda about 6 years ago. He is also going to flush out the motor and see if that improves the situation. The car is wet under from the oil that has spewed out from the dip stick. Other than that and topping up every 100 miles or so it has run remarkably well. Tomorrow the mechanic then the final bit of the drive of about 150 miles.
A couple of photos from todays drive through the High Plains of the open road, an old (130 years) settlers cottage in the middle of nowhere and a picture theatre in an old town long past its prime, both the town and the theatre. enjoy.
Garry
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The final end to the return trip taking delivery of the new car.
Well I got the cat through to a town east of home about 150 miles where I had previously had most of the work done on my 280SL some years ago and called into the mechanic to discuss the oil coming from the dip stick. We checked the breather tubes and they were blocked, we also flushed the engine and after re-filling it with oil trialled it out but alas it still is building pressure in the sump so the engine rebuild that was costed into the buy is coming sooner than later.
I have left the car there with instructions to start the build process by removing the engine.
So rather sadly I had to catch the train home for the last 100 miles and await the car for another six weeks, the time expected to overhaul the engine. At least with the engine out I can do a detailed clean up of the whole engine bay that is very oily at the moment. All in all I did 800 miles over 2 1/2 days and other than adding oil, had no problems.
Never the less I am very happy with the purchase, the gearbox performed really well and other than using oil it ran smoothly. I now look froward to getting it into the shed with its big brother and the Jag that is also yet to arrive.
Now what was that posting some time ago about the fear factor of taking the car on a long trip. Well, just check the fluids, get in and drive it, its the only way to get over the fear factor and get to know your car.
Garry
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Garry,
This is a good thing. If my memory serves me well, and it usually does, this edition of the Pagoda with automatic and in blue is for Kate. If so, remember that one's wife should not tolerate anything but the most reliable and comfortable and best running example "of the lot". Now, at a safe distance of 100 miles, you have the opportunity to fine-tune the new car to these specifications such that when presented to Kate, it will be a stellar example! As always, if you need any assistance on this end...
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Michael,
You are very correct the car is for Kate, it will be a good 2013 30 years together and 20 year wedding anniversary gift so I have 12 months to get it into perfect shape before bringing it home the final 100 miles.
Garry
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I'm wondering how long it took to do the previous 800 miles ??? ???
Naj