Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bonnyboy on March 10, 2012, 19:56:46
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I write this with tears in my eyes I'm so happy.
Today was the day that I turned the key on Benita and she fired right up and settled into a nice idle - first time in 20 some years.
You may recall that I picked up a derilict 69 280sl in October of last year from my Father. It had sat outside under a pile of lumber / inside on a dirt floor for 20+ years with an interior mostly apart and rust in all of the common areas (yes all) and mold on everything else.
For the first month I played with the body and used two cans of white spray paint and a little bondo to make the car look better.
Mechanically the first thing I did was clean the tank, disassembled the fuel pump 2X, new fuel lines, new oil/filter, new gas filter, new antifreeze, made sure valves were all opening and closing properly, cleaned the old plugs and checked gaps .035, put in a new battery and she fired right up and settled into a nice idle. I was not expecting that but then I should have realized that it is a mercedes. I now have a car instead of a decoration in the garage.
Next I'm gonna take apart the brake system and play with the other fluids, put the interior back and figure out why the drivers seat won't stey up. I have a brand new set of tires that I won from Yokohama that are calling out to me everytime I head to the garage - they want to go out and play.
THANK YOU THANK YOU to all of those that posted over the years so newbies like me could look up items I needed.
Yippeeeeeee - you guys and gals rock!
Ian
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I'm really pleased for you must be a great feeling :)
Any pics?
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Way to go Ian ... Kudos to you. Take care of those brakes and keep us posted (and remember no pics it didn't happen ;-)
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Good for you!
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That is outstanding. Another one saved!
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Good Job! The more, Pagodas that is , the merrier.
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WOO! HOO! Way to go Ian.
Now the stage is set for that short road trip down to Anacortes, WA and then on out to my Pagodas on Orcas event this August . . . .
Regards, Larry
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Thumbs up from me! Hope you'll get it driving before summer :-)
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I'm having more troubles putting in a picture than the fuel pump on the car....
I'll see if this works - if it does this is what the car looks like now with two cans of spray paint on the rockers and rear fender - interior still in pieces and brakes getting redone.
Interior shot is when I uncovered it after sitting for 20 years - you can almost see parts from the dead cat in the front - it did stink.
Ian
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Here are a couple more pictures of my pagoda-back in October when I unearthed her.
Pictures: Up on axle stands, Coming out of the shed, Out in the fresh air, On the trailer coming home.
Ian
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Coming along! I would have probably painted the rocker covers a dark grey or black but you can always do that later.
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Like others have said, Thank you for saving another one of these great automobiles. Looks like her new home is much nicer than where she spent the last 20 years of her life. Good luck on your restoration and keep us posted on your progress
John
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James, thanks for the comment about the rockers.
I live on the wet Coast of BC and see many different applications for rusty rockers, most of which include black paint, black tar undercoating, mactac, or hard plastic.
To me black rockers looks like I'm trying to hide something. Lord knows they were hiding lots of rust 20 yrs back.
I'm sure Bracq had intended the rockers to be black to hide the bulk of the car but I like the look of body colour rockers - just a personal taste - it could change in a few weeks after I start getting rock chips but for now they are white.
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Those are some really great pictures. Love the fog lamps!
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Today in a light rain I backed my car out of the garage and drove it down the back alley approximately 900 feet each way (900 X 4 = 3,600 feet or a little over 1/2 mile I think). Its lunch so I figured nobody would catch me driving without insurance. I was mainly checking the tranny, clutch and most importantly the new brakes and looking for leakages.
I had an offer to purchase the car on the spot from one of the crowd that emptied into the lane from a construction site and caught heck from my neighbour for never telling himn what I had in the garage. Is this indicitive of the attention I am going to receive?
The car shifts ok, the revs seem a bit high at idle (1,200 or so) and the throttle seems wierd compared to my other vehicles - hard to explain but seems laboured when I press the throttle but I can feel that she wants to go. Its not a linear acceleration like my motorcycle. I only reved it to a max 2,500 rpm today and brought her into 2nd gear twice to see if she would actually drive and shift in and out of 1st, 2nd and reverse.
Still no leakages so I guess its time for a full on burnout next time I go out (just kidding). The back up light stays on so that will be put on the list of things to do.
Still lots of interior work to do (wires hanging down everywhere)
Ian
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Good job so far Ian.
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Hi Ian. Well done, must be very rewarding to hear it run after all its' idle years. Where are you in North Van? I'm in Kits.
Cheers, Dale.
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Today at lunch I went at the interior just to see if what I have in the "big green garbage bag" was enough to make the interior look pretty. Other than the floor mat that had the dead cat I think everything is still there and semi useable (signs that the DPO used a crowbar to snap off the aluminium trim....AAAARGH!) . I just placed pieces back into the holes to see where things fit. Have a look at what 25 minutes of work came up with...before and after.
The wood is warped so I am going to try to unwarp it before I install it. Don't know how yet but apparently it was the reason the whole interior came apart.
Ian
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It's an European version to see the speed dialer in km/u. Very nice.
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Good pickup Gerster,
Ian maybe we can do some sort of deal on a KPH for MPH speedo if you are interested in changing it over.
Garry
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Wow - quite a change! It really shows how much the little things matter in the big picture :-)
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Garry - I live in Canada the land of kilometres and square metres. Miles per hour wouldn't do me much good but thanks for the offer.
I pulled Benita out this morning and took a couple pictures and now she is starting to look like the rest of the cars on this board.
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WOW, what in improvement. You've got a lot of great things going on with that car.
Congratulations on the first engine start.
There are very few automotive pleasures as great as that first startup of a car that has been sitting for a very long time, IMHO.
Enjoy the ride !!
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What a great story. :) You made your dad proud!!! Keep us posted on the progress
RB6667
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Re making my Dad proud - the thing he can't get over is how nonchalant I am about ...the rust - the broken heater levers - the seized wipers - the rusty sub frame - the rusty everything - the broken seat - the plugged fuel pump - the plugged fuel tank - the rusted brake calipers and lines.......
This Pagoda Sl Group has given me the answers necessary so far to make this process oh so enjoyable.
I give him weekly updates and he finally stopped apologizing for the condition of the car just a couple months ago. I explain to him if I was planning on going to look at a European barnfind that spent 20 years sitting idle not getting any exercise or love - I would expect much worse than what I have.
Now just to figure out how to get rid of that dead cat smell - the carpets, the sound proofing is removed and the floor has been scraped clean and the car still stinks.......I have even bleached the floor..
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I wouldn't take it to the Yukon though. The last guy who did that came back a burned up, frozen popsicle.
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On the 'dead cat smell' - you might actually have dead mice - a common problem in old Pagoda for some reason! More that one owner here (including myself) have found a mouse nest in the dash - near the heater levers. Once I got it out - that cured the smell.
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I have the dash apart and I can see no mice - I definately had a dead cat though - its name was Puss Puss and it was the neighbour's Persian who went missing in the fall of 1993. I found it the fall of 2011. Most definately dead. Thats 18+ years of odor permeating my beautiful car.
The same thing happened in my sidecar and I ended up giving that thing away as it permeated the fibregalss.
Here kitty kitty.
Ian
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Friday was the day - I got 1 day insurance - packed up all the tools and duct tape I thought I may need and took my car for its first drive. Drove my girls the 9 blocks to school (one at a time) at 7:15 / 7:30 then 10:10 I drove around town a bit - things seemed all right - noisy back end over bumps, divers seat has serious list to outside...- I took her onto the highway and still felt ok - (front end wanders a bit) - drove at about 80k for 5 minutes and then back into town - 20 blocks and car starts to stumble a bit going up a steep hill - I give her more gas and there is a stumbling of sorts at idle at next light - drive 10 more blocks and heading up a very steep hill I get to the top and the car dies - feels like no gas. I wave down some burly office types and with coffee cups in hand they helped push car onto the flat and I call roadside assistance.
I try to restart and and feels like no gas - I pull vents off tank - no pressure - I pull gas cap and no hissing. The fuel pump is trying.
Got the car home at the end of a tow truck and she started right up.
I figure the "infamous fuel retun line must be blocked" . To get to this point I have - cleaned fuel tank, all vents working well - used base guitar string on a drill to make sure lines were clean - new line to fuel pump, new filters in pump and at engine.
Am I on the right track?
Car sure was nice to drive - so quiet I couldn't even hear her engine note in the tunnel I went through, over the other cars and wind noise.
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Too bad about Puss Puss. Two suggestions: 1) Rental of an ozone generator - it sometimes works wonders in boats with foul odors (also fowl odors); and 2) Contact a commercial company that deals with the clean-up of crime scenes - they can do wonders with their specialized products.
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Help Please...
Its been two weeks since I broke down on the road during the Maiden voyage. See prior post for events leading up to stalling and refusing to start - sounds typical from the info I got from archives - drives nice on highway then after 5 minutes on a slow street it dies and won't restart. I figure I'm not getting enough fuel coming back to the tank.
I checked flow at fuel pump - 1 litre in 10 seconds - ok - Fuel tank has been redone and new lines from tank to pump and all seems ok including vents.
Checked fuel flow at fuel retun to tank - 250 ml in 15 seconds - - started woking backwards - Checked under car and found a badly dented fuel return line - figuring that the dent could be the culprit I cut out dent and checked flow at that point after fuel dampner and I get 250 ml in 15 seconds with car idling and with gas pedal pressed down a bit - no change.
Does injector pump speed the fuel up from the fuel pump or is fuel speed only related to the fuel pump at rear of car?
Does car need to be at more than idle to check fule flow on the return line?
Any hints on next steps? (Fuel filter is new)
Take apart fuel dampner and look for obstructions?
Take apart fuel injection pump and look for obstructions?
Working with raw fuel scares me.
Ian
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It is good that working with fuel scares you. That way I hope you are careful and take the proper precautions.
The flow we are talking about is from the electic fuel pump at the rear of the car only. The fuel injection pump (FIP) uses a very small amount when car is running relative to the 1 liter in 15 seconds quantity of flow the system is capable of. The fuel injection pump does not "speed up the fuel", it sends a very small amount to the engine for combustion.
When the system is all hooked up, the flow is the same (almost the same) at the beginning as it is at the end of the return (same from the perspective of how we are measuring with a container and a watch). It is a solid mass of fluid, with very little compressibility, so what goes in must come out at the same "speed" or flow. By disconnecting the line in various locations, we narrow down where the restriction is.
The car does not need to be at more than an idle. In fact, to lower risks, I did my fuel flow test with the engine off (with a good battery).
The good new is you found your issue !!! 250 ml in 15 seconds is not enough and IMHO you will be in much better shape, or cured, once you find and resolve the restriction.
Now measure the flow at the inlet and outlet of the FIP. Others have reported issues with something at the outlet of the FIP (I believe a check valve).
Isolate the fuel restriction before you start taking things apart (like the damper or FIP that you mentioned).
I also believe that there is a small possibility that the fuel pump is bad even though it is putting out 1 liter in <15 seconds, since this is without any restriction. A fuel pressure test will answer that question. But, if it was me, I would leave that for last and see if a specific restriction can be found.
Good luck !! I know what it feels like to get past this one, and I know you will like it too. Enjoy the ride. :)
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Hello Ian,
Did you check to see if you have a filter screen in the intake fitting of the fuel pump? If the car stops on you again, I would try a squirt of starting fluid in the intake. If it starts momentarily then it is a fuel problem. If not it could be electrical. Check the ignition points.
Topping off the fuel tank will often cure "flower pot" tank problems until fuel levels go low again. Sounds like the "entrance hole" your fuel tank flower pot could be clogged.
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Ian, have you checked the fuel volume returning to the tank without the engine running? Check to make sure your pump is putting out at least 1 litre per 15 seconds and then start working either forward or backward from the tank. Also, as mentioned there is a check valve coming out of the FIP. This was my issue this past winter. Read through this thread http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=16086.msg111214#msg111214 . Good luck. Make sure the engine is cold if you are working with the check valve because gas will spray. Let us know what you find.
Marcus
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Thank you all for your ideas. I'm starting to think that fuel pump may not be up to spec
I got full volume up to the FIP and then inadequate volume after the check valve leaving the FIP - so I put another check valve in from a donor FIP and I get a spray (this check valve has a hole in the centre) and more fuel but not the 1 litre in 15 seconds. I read on the site how to make a pressure tester so I will do that before I go further but it seems like a new fuel pump may be in the works.
Ian
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I had the same problem with a 280SL a while back. The engine would run fine when cold or when it was cold outside. As soon as it warmed up ( outside temp ) the engine would not restart until it cooled off.
I had close to enough fuel pressure but only about 8 PSI. There wasn't enough prssure to open the pressure regulator on the IP. We ended up trying a check valve from a 230SL that had a hole in it. By allowing some fuel to exit the IP the engine then ran OK. Clearly, fuel flow back to the tank is vital for proper engine preformance.
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Fuel Pump Pressure Update
I went to my "tickle trunk" at lunch and pulled out a couple pressure gauges and tested the fuel pressure without any check valves present. I got consistent readings of 6.2 - 6.4 depending on which gauge I used - new or antique, pretty or ugly.
This does not seem to be enough pressure to open the check valve. I have read that the pressure needed is 11-16 psi so it looks like a new pump is in order. Has anyone used a different pump that isn't so expensive - someone mentioned he saw a fuel pump from a Volkwagon Van installed sucessfully.
I expect that there are two readings a pump must meet - pressure of 11-16 psi and volume of 4 litres per minute. After that is there much to play with? Do I need a return line from the tank going to the pump?
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UPDATE
Thanks Mr Benz DR. You were right on the money - Needed more pressure to open the check valve and get the fule flowing. A contact came through with a replacement fuel pump. I hooked it up and I am getting 12+ psi after the check valve on the injection pump. Much better than the 6 psi I was getting with my pump.
I will take the car out for a spin in a couple weeks and see how she reacts. In the meantime I am fixing up the headlight buckets and plugging the big holes that were eaten by the rust worm. I am replacing the wood screws (aaaaaaargh) that were holding the headlight in with proper metric screws. I bought 100 so will have party favours the next time I host a mercedes event at my place. 10 minutes with the proper tap cleaned up the damage caused by the wood screws. I ask "why would someone do that?".
Regarding the dead cat smell I was advised by an old restoration guy that vanilla mixed with water sprayed on the leather and wiped off and sprayed into the remaining carpet and vacuumed out "may" get rid of the dead animal smell. I bought two small bottles of the real vanilla and will go and try it out - I will report back. Worst case it will smell like a bakery.
Ian
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Bonnyboy,
Regarding the dead cat smell, maybe a skunk smell cure will work?? I used this and it did an amazing job of getting rid of skunk smell under my porch (not Porsche). I used it in a sprayer, quickly ... but be careful because it is reacting in whatever vessel you put it in:
Skunk Smell Remover
1 quart 3% Hydrogen Peroxide
1/4 cup Baking Soda
2 tbsp Dish Detergent. The stuff for washing dishes in the sink, not something for dishwashers.
Mix the ingredients in a large bowl, because it will boil up like Vesuvius. We are, after all, making an oxygen generator. Wash the dog with this while it is still foaming, because it is the oxygen which reacts with the thiols in the skunk stink to neutralize the odor. If it sits around, it will loose it's efficacy because the oxygen boils off. Don't try to store it in an airtight container, because it will blow up. The brew also works for clothes, humans and unlucky cats.
Substitute "Pagode" everywhere you see "dog". ;D
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Update
This morning I installed the passenger headlight with the brand new flat euro lens into a rennovated headlight bucket.
Then I went at the driver's side light to check the bucket condition - no rust through from underneath but good time to check - not bad condition so I cleaned up the flaking paint with a pick and wirebrush. added soem some rust preventative and its ready to go. However the screws to hold the headlight cage were wood screws again ... because two of the original screws were snapped off and the DPO drilled holes above them to insert the wood screws in slightly different locations - That is why the entire headlight was a little cockeyed and too high.
I drilled out the broken studs, chased the threads with my trusty tap and put three new bolts with allen heads into the proper holes. The headlight fits much better now - just a little lower and straight.
Then I took the kids to school , made breakfast, got dressed and came to work for 8:00am. aaah - life is good.
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Went for the mandatory emissions testing this morning. Filled up with gas - $82.00 - went on the highway to let the horses run - unfortunately bumper to bumper for 5 miles so turned off highway and headed for the emissions testing place - went through and failed miserable with a 8.96 for CO. Went into the parking lot and turned that big screw at the end of the fi pump counter clockwise until the car started to stumble when starting - retested and passed with a 3.69. Now I can order insurance up here in the Great White North.
Now I can't get the car to start/run as well as it was and I can't figure out where I am in the adjustment process - I seemed to turn it all the way counter clockwise but it was hard to tell because I turned it the other way and nothing seemed to move either way. To me the screw turning thing seemed like I was pushing a pin over a ramp. Is there lots of turning or just 6 being one full turn.
I have reveived the linkage tour and still can't figure out what I did or didn't do. Do I richen it bit at a time until it starts very easy and leave it there?
Now to find out why the rear suspension sounds like its falling off the car and figur out how to jack the car up without suspending it from the suspension.
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Bit of an update since last post - have been camping with the kids most weekend so not much progress on my baby.
I got my license plates, installed them and they look really good. Black and white plates on a white car.
I changed oil in my rear end - confirmed that it is a limited slip diff - $38.00/litre at the mercedes shop - OUCH
I changed Tranny oil, only one litre came out but 1.5 litres went in just like the manual said. Very few shiny bits in the oil so that's good news.
Found some more rust from underneath that I will have to cut out and most importantly - I think I have adressed the dead cat smell.
I peeled out the 1/4" of tar sound deadner from the floor of the passenger foot well and found large areas of the floor still wet. The car has been out of the rain for 7 years so the water was at least 7 years old. Now I figure that the dead cat was in the foot well since the early 90's and with the car sitting outside in the rain for extended periods, the floor became a puddle of stinky cat soup. Not until the floor rusted out did the draining start and the floor appear to dry out. I put the chunks of tar into the a garbage bucket and moved that bucket to the shed and lo and behold - my garage doesn't smell anymore. Now I just have to weld some metal in for the floor. Piece of cake.
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Update- the passenger floor has been welded up and I put in new soundproofing and snaps for the floor mat and reinstalled the carpets. The bottoms of side carpets were very deteriorated and stinky (cat smells) and I don't feel like replacing the carpeting just yet so I painted the back of the carpet with black paint - two coats - and then trimmed the bottoms of the carpet a bit. Then I cleaned the carpets with a garden hose and carpet cleaner and the carpets don't look that bad.
I am going to do the driver's side now once I patch some more rust holes in the floor.
I patched some more areas of the rear subframe and my welding skills are getting slightly better every week. Running out of sheet metal though - need to get more fairly soon.
Cut / weld / grind / paint....repeat.
I should be driving the car but its just so much fun doing what I'm doing...
Ian
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Update....In the last week I have been playing vary sporadically with my toy.
I cleaned the rims and can't believe how they turned out - I was planning on repainting them but they really don't need it now. The scratches in them is "patina". A quick rubdown with silver spraypaint should make them look like new (lightly spray the scratches with similar paint and then wipe the paint off the painted metal and it will fill in the scratches only).
The carpet covering the sill on the drivers side was next for refurbishment. The carpet was so badly beaten up that I painted the underneath of the edge of the carpet with black paint and then once dry I trimmed the edge slightly. I hammered out the aluminium trim piece on an anvil and it didn't turn out that bad considering they removed it with a crowbar. I put silicone in the channel and lighlty placed what was left of the now painted carpetting back into the channel.
I went to the local hardware store and found some black rubber matting and cut the sill pieces to fit. Then hammered out the outer trim piece on the anvil and drilled holes in the new sill metal and installed everything - Looks good from 5 feet.
Then I went to do the same on the passenger side. As I was taping the area getting ready to cover the primer on the sills with some white spray paint as it was up on the hoist I caught another wiff of dead cat. Darn - my car still stinks. I started to clean the luggage shelf carpetting and realized that the shelfs came off by undoing the knurled nuts. Undid those and wow - a monster mouse nest left over from way back. The mouse made the nest with pieces of the dead cat. Oh yeah, both bottom corners were rusted right out. It was through those holes and the hole in the passenger floor that the industrious little mouse would have used to make a home for himself and the missus. More maggot casings, mouse droppings and birdseed.
These rust holes were fixed by a previous owner by dumping a 1/2 cup of bondo in the corners and letting it set up and then painting it all grey. Of course the bondo fell through as the car continued to rust over the past 20 years. Gooody goody - more reasons to weld. This will be an easy one.
After that is fixed I will work on figuring out how to get the heater fan to blow and go after the seized heater cables. Then put the dash back together.
Ian
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Update:
In the past week I have welded some more body parts and went at the non moving heater cables. I hooked up my handyd dandy cable oiler from my motorcycle and jammed a bunch of cable lube into the cables. After and hour or so they all move great. The heater blower works if I jump the contacts so I think I'll go with a two speed blower for a while until I find a Mercedes blower switch.
I made a bracket for the radio and a couple small brackets to hold the radio in after seeing pictures of them in the Technical forum. wow they really work.
Hoping to go for a drive next week.
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You're hired! You can start on Tuesday.
How did you get plates for your car with all of those rust holes? Don't they have a safety check in BC? Odd they would be more interested in CO%.
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Bonnyboy,
as it goes, we should maybe create Benita's fan club ;). Your posts became a blog long time ago, and like myself- many sam to follow your unequal fight with rust and dead cats.
I only regret that you include way too few pictures, but the story is great.
By the way, maybe we should start a new category "Blogs" on the sl113.org site? I am pretty sure that some of our members would demonstrate similar writing skills for the enjoyment of the rest of us, less gifted? :)
I must admit that our Pagodas are a very graceful subject for - I would say - never ending stories. They are very demanding in spares, undivided attention and care. And when we blow horns announcing to the world that our restored car is back to showcase state (better than new, that is), they gladly prove us wrong, by shamelessly showing new rusty hole or getting dead somewhere under-hood.
Good luck…. I am also going through restoration, so I feel a lot of compassion :)
Stan
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with a Pagoda - every day is Restoration Day!
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Mr. Benz Doc.
Here in BC vintage cars are only tested on emissions - pictures have to be sent to show no rust holes and to be honest many of the recent ones I found were surprises. The tar undercoating was hiding most - however in reality the car has to be in very good condition so even if you get the collector plates, if you have an accident your insurance can be denied if the car isn't at the condition it was implied as being. Apparently there are a high percentage of insurance denials here in BC because people misrepresent the condition of their vehicles to get the cheap insurance.
Ian
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This will be the last post in this thread that somehow turned into a Blog. I am now moving to a new chapter in the life of my pagoda. Tinkering...
Shakedown Drive - This morning I donned a touque, gloves, ski jacket, filled up with 94 octane non methanol blend and went off for a "shakedown" drive, the first drive over 5 miles in length. There is a highway near me that heads to Whistler along a fiord that is 4 lanes wide for the short straights and sweeping turns down to 2 lanes for the 30 mph twisties. This is an awsome motorcycle road with ocean on one side and steep mountains on the other - Its called the Sea to Sky Highway for good reason. This morning the sun was out and my Pagoda was calling me.
After 1 1/2 hours of driving I am now back in the office with a grin on my face. My prior experience driving a Pagoda was limited to short drives in town as a teenager with my Father as passenger except once (that is another story). I have to agree that in 1969 this car would have been "Weapons Grade" all the way. Even going through the tight 30 mph corners at 60 mph there was no tire squeal or hopping or wallowing or anything I am used to in my MGB. Wow that was fun. I hope not to find the limits of my car becasue that was good enough for me this morning. I was not always really paying attention to my speed because everything is in kilometres but at one point I was passing cars doing what I converted to be 90+ mph. OUCH - that's an expensive ticket.
Saw one other Mercedes Convertable with the top down (red 560sl) and they didn't even wave back.