Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: twistedtree on April 13, 2012, 12:16:37
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Next time you are struggling to find some part for your car, keep in mind that in relative terms we've got it really easy with BOTH parts availability AND cost.
I just bought a '71 Volvo 142E. I know, it's not a glamorous car, but at this point in time it's a rare surviving unmodified example (thank you, California weather) of a very forward thinking car in it's time. Plus I used to own one so it has a place in my heart. Anyway, try getting parts for one. Other than the most basic wear items, nothing is available or is hugely expensive. Volvo has dropped all support at this point, so everything is aftermarket. And with so few still around even in junk yards, used parts are scarce too.
I promise never to complain about MB parts availability or cost ever again.... at least not for a month or two....
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You should try to find parts for a 44 year-old hand made V12 Ferrari of which they made 800 in four years. Many parts have to be made and all have to be restored before use.
I feel the same as you about Pagoda parts. It's a piece of cake... and lots of money.
Tom Kizer
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Yes, but the only problem is this: most people buying any Ferrari, much less a 44 year old one, are in the "1%" and have a bankroll and income to support such a hobby. Many Pagoda owners are mere mortals, and some struggle with the ever increasing cost of just keeping one on the road today without even including the possibility of restoration or something.
Yes we are happy and we do have it easy, but the future looks a little cloudy.
I know several mere mortals that once owned Gull Wings and 300 SL Roadsters until they got "crazy stupid" in prices and now a whole new kind of owner is out there.
If you want an inexpensive fun car for driving and restoration and such, I guess you get an old MG-B...or something of that ilk. Certainly not an old Mercedes!
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Having done various resurections on a student's budget I agree that we have it easier than many - I must admit that the MGB is super easy for parts but creates its own problems - since stuff was so cheap I collected lots of extras and ran out of room - now to make way for the mercedes project I have been disposing of items. However things are so cheap its hard to even sell MGB parts - in the last 7 months after getting frustrated with timewasting car enthusiasts I just gave away stuff to club members including an MGB rear end, wheels, aluminium hood, brake parts, hard top, remains of a soft top, and a seat. Ahhh I can breathe now - but why do I have two spare trannys still????? - just in case I guess.
Working on the MGB is like being on vacation while working on the Mercedes is like working at a job you love - subtle difference.
Ian
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If you want an inexpensive fun car for driving and restoration and such, I guess you get an old MG-B...or something of that ilk.
A friend once said that if you want an MG, just buy a Miata and pour a quart of oil over the engine.
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I also realised that we have it easy since I bought my El Camino - even for the years when they sold the most just units, just about nothing is available new, except for the basic wear and tear items and some aftermarket body repair panels and such. So you become inventive about sourcing used parts from junkyards, people parting out whole cars etc.
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Yes, but the only problem is this: most people buying any Ferrari, much less a 44 year old one, are in the "1%" and have a bankroll and income to support such a hobby. Many Pagoda owners are mere mortals, and some struggle with the ever increasing cost of just keeping one on the road today without even including the possibility of restoration or something.
Yes we are happy and we do have it easy, but the future looks a little cloudy.
I know several mere mortals that once owned Gull Wings and 300 SL Roadsters until they got "crazy stupid" in prices and now a whole new kind of owner is out there.
If you want an inexpensive fun car for driving and restoration and such, I guess you get an old MG-B...or something of that ilk. Certainly not an old Mercedes!
I am in agreement with what you've said here Michael. I believe the latest issue of the SL Market Letter (Apr. 2012) appears to be also.
It would seem a few of the things holding back valuations of W113s are that there are still too many around, parts remain relatively plentiful & inexpensive, plus our cars just are not old enough yet. I suspect it's merely a matter of time. Yet even now within the U.S. market, (which is cheaper than some others), it is no longer all that unusual for the finest examples to go for 6 figures. Of course this is not news, but the upper-end W113s have been and continue to appreciate the most rapidly, with the best 280SLs being in the lead when it comes to percentage growth / CAGR.
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Talk about easy, after restoring a couple of old VW's I have to say, they by far have the most abundant and cheapest parts availability. Lenses for $8, complete rubber kits for $80, new chrome door handles for $60 a pair, bumpers for $100 etc.. You could easily build an entire car from the catalog of available parts. Its really fun to get a car back from the paint shop and put on all new parts for under $1000. Granted the stuff is made in China and other places where quality may be sketchy, so probably not going to the concours at Pebble Beach. The biggest problem is once they're done you feel obligated to drive the damn things; 0-60 in 20 minutes , downhill, with a tailwind. You pretty much just slap the throttle pedal right to the floor and wait till it gathers up enough speed to shift. On my bus I think I'll put a calender on the dash instead of a tach. ;D
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Here's a question for you guys who know about more MBs than just Pagodas. When I restored an old Ferrari, it cost the same to restore a 2+2 worth $100K as a 2-seater cabriolet worth $400K. In fact the interior of my 2+2 was even more expensive because of the quantity of leather. The powertrain parts were mostly common.
I know that as I finish restoring my Pagoda, I will have paid more than it is worth. If I were restoring a 300SL roadster in the same condition, would it cost me more to restore than the Pagoda?
I question if that is not the problem with restoring cars. The rich guys can restore a $1,000,000 car and get their money back when they sell it. The poor guys pay more to restore their $30K car than it's worth when finished.
Tom Kizer
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An interesting question. Having the Jag as well and sourcing parts for it as Tom worked on it in LA, it was noticeable that all the parts were fairly readily available and the costs appeared to be around 20-30% lower than the Mercedes items. eg, tail lights new repro were around $300, try getting a new repro one for a Pagoda at that price. Steering rack new $500 and on it goes. Panel parts appeared to be about the same. Maybe it is the exchange rates that are in Australia's favour at the moment.
I always thought the labour component for doing a concourse restoration on a car will be pretty much the same whether it is a Pagoda or 300SL. Parts are the big difference. Maybe they think they can get away with a higher rate for the 300.
The other thing that is having an affect on the market is the distortion between the US market and the rest of the world for the Pagoda. In Aust, a decent driver on a good buy will be around the $55k+, in the UK it appears to be around the 30k+ pound, and in Europe 45k+ Euro.
With the exchange rate at the moment, certainly for Australia, that makes an Australian RHD Pagoda in USA for just the daily driver at the bottom of the scale $55k. Any thing decent starts at $85k and goes up to $150k. These prices appear to be the same in Europe so for some reason the US Pagoda is very low in the USA. Note of caution on that and it is that try selling a LHD US Pagoda in Australia and you can take off 30% or more. I don't know how that goes for Europe in LHD, maybe Cees can chime in here having just purchased a US car to import also.
Garry
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As for the economics of restoration, and painting with VERY broad brush strokes, there is much less variation in the cost of a restoration than there is variation in the value of a particular make/model. In other words, it doesn't matter so much what you are restoring, it will cost about the same for any given quality level of work. The result, as you observe, is that a restoration will leave you underwater for anything other than a very high value car - say one that is north of $100k, and more likely $250k.
By way of example, a top notch Pagoda restoration could easily cost $100k on top of the purchase price leaving you in the hole for $125k-$150k. Maybe some people can sell a car for that much, but it would be hard and make a profit quite uncertain.
In contrast, a friend of mine works for one of the high shops in the area (they have won pebble beach a couple of times) and they are currently working on a Gullwing that was a complete basket case - as in a basket of parts. It will cost $500k to bring it back, but the result will be a $1m car. The profit is certain - it's just a question of how fat.
So for most of us, it's a labor of love, and an exercise in profiting off more modest incremental improvements in our cars.
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I know several mere mortals that once owned Gull Wings and 300 SL Roadsters until they got "crazy stupid" in prices and now a whole new kind of owner is out there.
Do you really think the values are more Crazy Stupid than 10, 20, or 30 years ago, or is it all relative? I ask because I remember visiting Gullwing Motors (as in Paul Russel's place in Essex, MA, not Gullwing in NY) back in the early 80's to watch them working on Gullwings and other exotics. The Gullwings were worth $100k or so at the time, which certainly seemed Crazy Stupid at the time.
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Hello Twistedtree. I was at Paul Russell's place in Essex not too long ago. It was a pleasure visiting with the fellow who'd recently done some work on my 280SL. The people, not to mention the cars, there are amazing aren't they? I do recall reading on their website awhile back, though, that an owner will likely never recover the cost on a top quality restoration. The next owner will almost certainly be the beneficiary. Of course an heir might do extremely well if they inherit an iconic car. (not that a Pagoda is "iconic", maybe never will be ... but then take a look at 190SL value trends over the past few years).
Re your estimate that a top notch Pagoda restoration could easily cost $100K, I also heard something very similar to that just a few months ago, with $100K being minimal. Of course that assumes a solid car is delivered to the restorer to begin with. So, say one starts with a $50K car and puts $125K into the restoration process; then one may have the pleasure of ending up with a Pagoda worth around $100K, (but which cost $175K).
Based on the numbers I've seen it would appear that the top W113s, within the U.S. market, have over the past decade increased at a compound annual growth rate (CAGR) of a little over 7%, perhaps closer to 7.5%. If that level of appreciation holds going forward, (which may not be a terribly unreasonable assumption), then based on "the Rule of 72" one might anticipate the finest 280SLs to double in value every 10 years or so. So if the top notch cars are currently valued at say $100K then in 10 years they could be $200K, another 10 years $400K, and so on. Who can know(?), but there might be some logic to it. And maybe some comfort.
BTW, I've owned my 280SL since 1985 and do not plan to ever sell it. Bought it in Portland, OR. where there happened to be a shop doing a surprising number of 300SL restorations at the time. The guy even had one of the rare aluminum bodied Gullwings there for some work. I'm still kicking myself for not buying a gorgeously restored 300SL roadster, which could have been had for $75-80K then.
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Speaking of Gullwings, did everyone see that alloy body example that auctioned for $4.2M Crazy Stupid? Not if you are the seller.....
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I also realised that we have it easy since I bought my El Camino - even for the years when they sold the most just units, just about nothing is available new, except for the basic wear and tear items and some aftermarket body repair panels and such. So you become inventive about sourcing used parts from junkyards, people parting out whole cars etc.
Cees, when ever I read something I don't believe, I research it and either come away humbly surprised or correct in my assumption.
Finding El Camino parts in Switzerland is like finding Zil (Russian limo) parts in Iowa. The El Camino as I'm sure you know used fairly common running gear, and LOTS of stuff is available new. Most of it might be reproduction, but the American car manufacturers are rarely in the old parts business, so even some of the officially sanctioned parts (such as the entirely new bodies for 1965 Mustang convertibles recent announced) are merely licensed reproductions. I did a little checking and found all kinds of new parts for El Caminos, bumpers, mechanicals, trim, badging, metal repair parts, lighting...even custom built or new 454 GM crate engines...
http://www.elcaminostore.com/
http://www.opgi.com/c/el-camino/1975/parts.html (just one page for 1975...)
http://www.ecparts.net/Catalog.htm
http://www.andysautosport.com/auto_parts/chevrolet_el_camino.html
http://www.454crateengine.com/gm-performance/lsx-454-crate-engines-sale/
The fact that a lot of mechanicals were shared with other GM products of the era (many of which had annual production in the hundreds of thousands over many years will make most parts readily available for years to come. You will not find any of this stuff like engines or large body panels cheap or easy to ship to CH. But, no problem for any of this stuff around these parts--really!
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Hi Michael - yes, I know of all these places, have ordered stuff from the El Camino store, Summit, OPG etc. Sure they have lots of parts, all kinds of things. But when you look closer, what you see is that most things you need are NLA, GM or aftermarket. Cars have probably thousands of parts; if you see hundreds it looks like a lot but it isn't. Chrome trim, sheet metal, most interior trim parts, grilles, gauges, chassis parts: just NLA. If you check the El Camino forums you'll get confirmed from the Americans there that the "4th gen" ('73 - '77) is the hardest to get parts for and members there complain about it all the time.
I actually have an easier time finding those NLA parts here than in the US, believe it or not, because there are a few guys in the Netherlands parting out 4th gen cars and, because they are so rare in Europe, I am one of the very few takers! That is how I was able to score the window trim for example, almost impossible to come by in the US.
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Cees, I thought the "Earl Camino" was unique because it was supposed to be a junker as used on the TV show. If you restore it to an EL Camino, aren't you killing its uniqueness? :D (Not that it couldn't use killing.)
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Well, Cees--there's always some parts for some cars that will be hard to get--but if what I saw (ALL of it was available, just put in in the basket, and pay!) for the range of El Caminos were available even at twice the price for our Pagodas, we probably would not have people complaining about prices or availability. As you know, a quality rebuild on any of our engines, professionally, is about $10K. 454 El Camino crate engines are in stock in any number of places for about the same. Transmission? Easy, showed up in millions of cars. I did indeed look at those retailers and was amazed that you can find, in stock. A a set of new door handles for early models was about $60, and for yours, $13 each. Not NLA, but in stock. I paid $150 each for the door handles for my Pagoda. Yes a lot of the old GM stuff is repro--but it is available.
I agree that when you get down to the nitty gritty, there will be some parts hard to find. But this car was engineered here; made all over the place in quantity (large quantity if you count the related vehicles it was based on) and I see them all the time in the summer, usually in pristine (er, non-Earl condition... ;)) at various shows and just driving around. I think you have it much easier for Earl than for the Pagoda.
But, if you need any help in anything, don't hesitate to contact me...I'm sure I can find things here in the Motor City, and we need to keep "Earl" going, right?
Oh, found this online: Earl, and his El Camino...
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Cees, I thought the "Earl Camino" was unique because it was supposed to be a junker as used on the TV show. If you restore it to an EL Camino, aren't you killing its uniqueness? :D (Not that it couldn't use killing.)
Hi Ray - don't worry, the car is staying exactly the same, appearance-wise. The only thing I've changed that is visible is put in modern seat belts. The only other thing I will have to change, that real afficionados might notice, is replacing the seat upholstery. Unfrotunately, the original color combination is NLA so I will have to go with the closest I can find. But everything else is staying exactly the same as it was on the show.
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But, if you need any help in anything, don't hesitate to contact me...I'm sure I can find things here in the Motor City, and we need to keep "Earl" going, right?
Oh, found this online: Earl, and his El Camino...
If you can find me a new steering wheel that would be great. Not a NOS because the plastic in them deteriorates over time which makes the old steering wheels very sticky on warm summer days. So I have to rub it down every couple of days to get the stickiness off. It's the same standard steering wheel that was used on hundreds of thousands of, I think 'G-body', cars and so far none of the parts places I've tried carry them nor have I been able to find one on Ebay, only old ones like I already have. Oh and the plastic plate that sits behind the gas and brake pedals, on the firewall. A corner is broken off mine. A new plastic grill insert would be nice also as would a new dash cover (not a dash cap, but the actual dash pad). Finally, the bracket that is supposed to hold the windshield wiper canister which is missing on my car.
I think all these items are still available for our Pagodas, new from MB.
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Next time you are struggling to find some part for your car, keep in mind that in relative terms we've got it really easy with BOTH parts availability AND cost.
I just bought a '71 Volvo 142E. I know, it's not a glamorous car, but at this point in time it's a rare surviving unmodified example (thank you, California weather) of a very forward thinking car in it's time. Plus I used to own one so it has a place in my heart. Anyway, try getting parts for one. Other than the most basic wear items, nothing is available or is hugely expensive. Volvo has dropped all support at this point, so everything is aftermarket. And with so few still around even in junk yards, used parts are scarce too.
I promise never to complain about MB parts availability or cost ever again.... at least not for a month or two....
Really?
http://www.vp-autoparts.com/index.htm
http://www.cvi-automotive.se/
http://www.swedishtreasures.com/142toc.html
http://global.gcp.se/global/catalogues/nav45897?type=sc
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Cees,
The trick here in the USA is to source body parts from the south and interior parts from the far north or even Canada where the sun is not so intense. I'll be up on the border in June and I will look around.
What color do you need?
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Thanks Shvegel - actually I don't need new body parts, but for starters the items I mentioned in my earlier post. The point was these are not available new. I know I can get them from old cars, so will manage (except for the steering wheel, which is black, with an 'SS' horn pad). Thanks anyway!
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It will cost a lot more to restore a 300SL than a Pagoda. Not only are 300SL parts very exspensive the value of the car dictates that you will spend more to make it worth your effort. Decent Roadsters are going for 600K now. You wouldn't spend 100K on a number 3 car and expect to see top money out the other side. 100K on a 190SL or a Pagoda will give you a nice but not perfect car. 100K on a Gullwing will give you no return at all. In fact, average workmanship would devalue the car.
If you want really exspensive parts, try a 600. A tail light will cost you $3,700.00! Door seals are 500 each. All on a car that might bring 85 - 95K.
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It looks like instead of asking for a comparison of restoration costs for a Pagoda vs 300SL, I should have asked for a comparison of restoration costs for a 600 vs a 300SL. Thanks for the explanation, Dan.
Tom Kizer
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Thanks Tom.
I'll explain a bit further. When you buy a car to restore, there's a certain amount you pay for the car before anything else happens. When you begin to restore your car, there will be all sorts of bills to pay for body work, engine, chrome plating, interior and a number of other items, big and small. Once your car is finished, your exspenses will be mostly basic maintanence so the bills will become much smaller. Everything you bought for your car is hopefully, a one time deal. If you have several cars this might be a constant and often repeated exercise.
Since I buy parts almost every week, and I've been doing this for 35 years, I've noticed certain trends in pricing. In almost every case, when the part in question went '' classic '' the price increased considerably. Every time I order the same part the price is often higher if I can't get it through an OE supplier. King pins, brake parts, and stuff that has lots of applications, generally stays at a fairly low and constant price. Things that only MB has control of is a different story. Reproduction parts have helped out but sometimes the quality isn't there.
Avaliablity of parts through MB is a double edged sword. Yes, it's great to have them and they can often have stupid prices on some things, but it's also kept the aftermarket suppliers out of the mix because they are available. When something suddenly becomes NLA the repro parts won't be there for us. It often becomes a knee jerk reaction to a sudden parts supply problem. Anything that's still out there gets snapped up quickly for far more than what it should cost and then slowly repro parts become available.
Then there been times where some are left holding very exspensive NOS when suddenly a supply of ' lost parts ' are found by Carl Benz at a much lower price. It doesn't happen a lot but it does happen....
It comes down to the golden rule. '' He who has the gold, makes the rules.''
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A good example of pricing that has gone up on eBay and now matching our list of suppliers for price. Ebay would not be my choice all being equal.
There were some OEM body panels for front left and right pagoda on eBay today sole for $1025 each. Pretty much the same price as some of our regular suppliers.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/251042631695?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_840wt_1158
As well there were some panels from the 600 including doors, a roof panel and a NOS crankshaft. All sold for $1025 each. Dont know how they compare with retail.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/251042626326?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_840wt_1167
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The crankshaft might have been a steal; Van Dijk told me man years ago that, at that time, a new crankshaft for a 300 SL from MB cost around $20,000! (by comparison, a new crankshaft for my Chevy can be had for a few hundred $, up to less than $ 3,000 for the most serious racing application).
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I'm thinking a crank shaft for a 600 would be the same as one for a 6.3 as they are both M100 engines. The crank in a 300SL is similar to that of a 300SE. Whether they're the same, I'm not sure, but I'd be looking into it if I needed one.
A friend of mine bought a new head for his 300SL Roadster for about 5K only a few years ago. This may sound like a lot but they were selling for much more than that ( 20 K ) until a new batch became available.
It's not the big stuff that I notice so much but rather the smaller common parts that I might order once or twice a year. I neeed a LT heater flap for a 113 recently. They were a lot less last year.
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The best "Investment" I have made in the past few years was buying most of my parts for the restoration of my car when it started in 2007. The 2 headlights I paid $1000 for are now $2500 and most of the sheetmetal has doubled in price as well. Still, Available and expensive is still better than NLA,
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Should I start stockpilling certain items?
The recent discussions on the board about headlight lenses have me wondering what are the parts that I should start stockpiling for my car. Being prepared for the unexpected - today I ordered two more euro lenses from my local parts hero (www.bmvautoparts.com/) just incase mine get a rock chip or break.
what sort of parts I should be scouring the "net" for? For example: Watches - any Omega mechanical watch I find for less than $100 will go home with me. Motorcycles - spare exhausts and side covers for my bikes do not stay on the table if the price is reasonable. Oil filters for my CB750 motorcycles - I bought 20 of them last spring.
So far I have a stockpile of the following W113 parts: oil filters, used injectors, crummy windshield wipers, spark plugs (incorrect and correct ones), and soon headlight glass
Next on my list - fuel pump....
Anything else?
I used to have an old Motorhome - in the box at the back I carried a spare alternator, distributor cap, wires, starter, waterpump and points - never needed any of them but they were there.
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Spare fuel may not be a bad idea - I understand it will be getting scarce ... ;)