Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: Eminent on April 23, 2012, 10:00:34
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Within a few weeks i'll be ready to start the overhauled engine.
This engine has new oversized pistons, rings, main bearings, crank sprocket, chain guides and a fairly new chain. The head has hardened seats, new exhaust valves, valve seals, valve guides and the surface is slighly decked.
I already find some answers on this forum.
- Use plain water instead of anti freeze
- take care that the chain tensioner is filled with oil
- injection pump at 20 degrees, crank and cam lined up (maybe use of an offset key), ignition at static.
Some questions i have at this moment.
1. should i use particular oil?
2. should i pour some oil in the cylinders before cranking (by hand)?
3. is it difficult to put the chain back in when the engine is in the car and the head is still off?
4. give cranking by hand enough pressure to lubricate everything?
5. after cranking by hand let the starter do some work, whitout starting the engine?
I think there may be more questions when i'm so far.
Anyhow, tips and suggestions are welcome.
Thanks!
Rini.
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There are a lot of tricks to building engines and it's not possible to learn them all in one rebuild. The actual process of putting everything back together isn't so hard but getting everything right is. The manual only tells you certain specs but not what to look for.
I use a break in oil or a break in additive. Joe Gibs break in oil is pretty good but may not be available to you. I also use Comp Cams break in additive - the whole 500 ml bottle. At about 500 km I drain the oil and change the filter. I then add 250 ml of this same additive to every oil change.
Modern engine oils contain litttle or no zinc which is an anti wear compound. Cam shaft wear will be greatly reuduced or eliminated by using zinc additive. Our engines require an anti wear additive because they use flat tappet cam shafts.
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I didn't do the rebuild by myself. Both, the short block and the head, are rebuild by the shop. It's up to me to put everything together and make it work.
I removed almost everything what's attached to the "old" engine. Just to make it easier to get it out of the car. The rebuild short block is almost ready to put in. I'm just waiting till the BBB arives. This for torque specs from the engine mounts, the flange between the block and the bell housing, flywheel etc.
Thanks for your tips about additives
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As the doctor pointed out, you may not be able to find the Joe Gibbs oil in your part of the world, but I'm sure you have a GM dealer nearby. Go to any GM dealer and pick-up a bottle of GM EOS. ( Picture attached) This stuff is loaded with Zinc, and our old valve trains need it!!! Current oils do not contain the zinc and other anti-wear additives like oils of the past. Extensive studies have shown that 4-5 OZ added to the oil gives us the protection that we need. I use this product on all of my cars listed below in my signature line including the pagoda. 2 of my cars have very radical cams that would not survive on today's oils.
In addition to the "Doctored Oil" Make sure you have full oil pressure before you fire the engine. Just pull the coil wire off and spin the starter until pressure is indicated. A good extra step is to have a box fan or similar in front of the car blowing full blast to avoid overheating. New engines tend to run very hot when 1st fired.
Put the coil wire back on, say a little prayer, and fire it. Pay close attention to the oil pressure and temp during this time. Ideally you want to vary the engine speed between 2000-2500 RPM's during this time. Run the engine for 15-20 minutes. It is always wise to have a helper looking at the engine and under the car to catch any problems quickly.
It's a little spooky to fire an engine for the 1st time. Just take your time, triple check everything, and enjoy the satisfaction when it goes well. Best of luck, and please give us an update.
RB6667
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Thanks for the great advise.
Ofcourse i will post here how things are going, but i still have a long way to go.
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It is critical that the engine is pre-lubed with assembly lube and to get the oil pressure up very quickly. On some engines, it is possible to spin the oil pump with an electric drill to do this. The way the pump is driven with the Pagoda engines makes this very difficult if not impossible to do. Some recommend turning over the engine with the starter and with the spark plugs removed and the coil disconnected. It is a good idea to turn the engine over by hand to ensure nothing is binding. I was able to find a pressurized oiler tank that you fill with oil and attach at the oil filter connection. When the tank valve is opened, oil flows through all the oil galleys until you can see it flow over the cam and valve train. I had pressure immediately when I started the engine. These oilers can be found by doing an internet search and they look like a small propane tank with a fller cap/dipstick and shut off valve on top.
George
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George, How about a permanent electric oil pump that starts/runs before the 'Starter' for a couple seconds? Eliminates the wear from no lube during start. Like the big diesels, etc.
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I tried the electric drill idea once and almost broke my arm when the pump spiked. :o Turn the engine over with the plugs out until you see the oil pressure gauge come up to full pressure. You can't hurt anything because there won't be any load on any moving parts.
There's no need for special pumps or equipment to pre lube the oil galleys.
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The key thing is getting oil into the galleys so a number of methods will work equally as well.
George
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Since we are talking about oil, The "Good" oil was not produced after 2007. Starting in 2008 all oil in US had to meet much stricter requirements. There were several changes, but one of the more important additives reduced was Zinc. Zinc acts like a poison to catalytic converters. 1300 PPM (Parts Per Million) is said to be the Min Zinc required for adequate protection. The key area of concern for older engines is the valve train. Lots of metal to metal contact here, and Zinc made it survive. Post 2007 oil has very low Zinc content. Some as low a 600 PPM.
The oil makers responded by marketing racing oils and other formulations designed for older engines. Many of these oils have the Zinc content we are looking for.......but some of them do not. Do a Google Search for oil tests and you will find lots of information on this subject. Many of the tests have the Zinc contents listed for review.
The downside to these oils is that they are pretty pricey. So what do we do? There are several oils that fit the bill. Chevron Delo 400 15-40 (Picture Attached) has a reported zinc content of 1300+. This oil is designed, and approved for Diesel or Gasoline engines. There has been some talk about the detergents in this oil being over kill for gas engines, but there does not seem to be a definite decision on this subject.
I use Chevron Delo 400 and a 4-5 OZ dose of GM EOS in all of my older gasoline engines. This combo has been tested, and has been found to have Zinc levels in the 1600-1800 PPM range.
Research the options and see what is best for you.
RB6667
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Thanks all for the replys, tips and suggestions.
I like the Kroon oils very much. They have oils specially for this engine. Gonna look if i can find more info from this brand.
But zinc is the keyword and will keep that in mind.
Thanks.
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Yesterday i started the engine for the first time. It dind't sound smooth but after some adjustments with the distributor i made progress.
Today i used a borrowed lamp to set the ignition more precise. Also i adjust the FIP to be more lean. Black smoke out the exhaust makes me think it was to rich.
I will go for a CO test later.
Anyhow, after these adjustments the engine starts immediately and runs very smooth.
Oil pressure is full, only at idle it drops a bit.
Thanks all for the input.
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Here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=061GxhM6GRc) a short movie from one of the first starts.
After 17 seconds i removed my thumb from the microphone ;D
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Congratulations! Engine sounds good (and the car seems impeccable). Keep us posted on how it runs. Are you planning to check compression once the engine is run in?
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Very nice! Great job. Enjoy that new engine.
RB6667