Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: rmmchl on October 21, 2012, 01:19:03
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It seems to me that on E-Bay and other sites, more bids are placed on our cars that are under the $15,000 range. It seems as though the really nice cars that have much higher reserves, not many people, if any, bid on them.
Some of us critique our cars to the extreme, and I believe it hinders a lot of sales. I have a really nice 250SL, but if I put it up for sale, there are many on this site that would pick it apart, and probably affect its sale price. I must admit, I have been guilty of this also.
When I look at a Pagoda, I can tell what is or isn't original, and I myself could pick one apart with my going over every inch of the car. Sometimes I feel that owning a $8000 "rust bucket" might be the better option. Drive it and have fun. Sell it at any time with no financial loss, and have good time.
The $59,000 cars just don't seem to sell. Who really cars about fender notches, or the correct firewall lining? ( I guess we do). I'll just have to keep mine forever, because I just don't think I could get a sale price that would compensate for the amount I have in it. I'm glad I have a good reason to keep mine.
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Michael,
Far from trying to play seasoned economist, let me tell you that what you describe here is a snapshot of a perfect market situation for items other than basic goods.
I assume - obviously - that Pagoda has a strong appeal and is therefore a very desired item (some of them treat HER as partner - for decency reasons - only second to their wives, or at least as part of their household members :D). In most if not all cases, this is not their first car, not even second, but third that is used occasionally, most often only in good whether.
No wonder then that only a narrow group of people can allow themselves spending US$60,000 to get such a car, especially these days. On the other side of the equation, for market entrants a US$15,000 car offer the dream and hope that - step by step - one can bring the old lady back to her glory days.
I would also risk an opinion that in the price paid for a Pagoda, the first ten thousand bucks go just for the fact that it is Pagoda and not - say - the W107. I'll call it scarcity premium. The remainder of the price is for the actual car. And top condition restored cars may be under price pressure due to crisis. Alas, the "hobby" money was just whipped out to a very large extent.
In other words: if you have a top tier car to propose, you have to be prepared that this would take longer and that buyers will be more selective. And you may have to accept that the price offered does not correspond to your expectations - or even worse - does not cover the cost of restoration of your lovely one. >:(
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Michael, Flyair--
The market for collectible cars at ever increasing prices ia alive and well. Michael, it all has to do with how they are sold.
High or higher-end Pagodas are generally not going to be sold on eBay. The flip side of that is the $8,000 rust bucket would NEVER cross the auction block at Monterey, or many/any of the RM auctions, as an example.
The people seeking such things usually seek them out privately; people like Brian Peters will consign nice examples and get the money they are worth. I don't think eBay is involved.
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Yes, there are those who dream of piecing backtogether a neglected car one paycheque at a time. The experience is amazing. I recomend it for anyone with the space time and patience. Just don't do it to sell the car and make a profit.
I had three "experts" tell me last year that my '69 280sl should be relegated to the parts bin and even then I would be hard pressed to get $10,000 for the parts. when I heard that I felt a great pressure lifted off. What it meant is that what ever I do to my car can only improve my use of the car and its appearance.
I have had several people comment now a year after I started work on the car that they did not think that my car could ever be in the condition that it is now. My main parts guy apologized profusely last week after seeing my car for the first time for thinking that what I was buying parts for was then and was always going to be just barely above the condition of a parts car.
Is my car worth more than $10,000 now. It doesn't really matter to me but oh yeah - for sure. Will it ever be a $59,000 car - I sure hope not - I'd be afraid to drive it then.
I'm just having so much fun it seems that it should be illegal or imoral.
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Hello Ian,
Nice photo of your car. Nice to see one "on the move". Also happy to hear you are enjoying the fruits of your labor tooling around in your beautiful SL. There is nothing like it! Your picture exemplifies that :)
John
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People just like getting a "bargain". Of course we all know that the cheap, rusty car is no bargain. It's really that simple.
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Its all about price of admission and the venue you want to attend. Anyone restore a vintage wooden boat lately????
Bargain or no bargain? It all depends on what you think a bargain is and what your expectations are; of the car and yourself. My car is really nothing other than a "stress reliever" where I can leave the stresses of my job hanging with my suit in the closet. As soon as I put on my "grubbies" my focus shifts to the endless possibilities my car offers.
If you want to purchase a Pagoda to restore and then try to sell it at Bonhams - absolutely don't start with a rusty car - you will be underwater before you finish peeling off the undercoating. If you want to play with the beautiful mechanicals, learn to weld, participate in car rallys, meet with like minded car enthusiasts and experience the overall experience that the Pagodas offer, then starting with a rusty car may not be all that bad.
Yes I agree starting a restoration with a rusty car will probably see you throwing thousand dollar bills at your body man in reckless abandon. And don't expect it to stop at $20,000 anytime soon. But who says a car has to be restored - how about resurected or resessitated. Spending $35,000 on a $15,000 car to bring the value up to $40,000 after two years of driving doesn't seem reasonable so why bother.
I find that the most enyoyable part of my experience is wrenching, driving, and meeting enthusiasts (in that order). If I started putting my money away and when it totalled $40,000 and only then went out and bought a car I would miss out on all the years of fun inbetween. I got into the game on the cheap and think the smiles per mile ratio has been farly good so far.
Now that the interior is back together, the running gear is alive and the floor panels, wheel wells etc. have had the rust cut out and welded up, sealed and made to look pretty I don't even think about resale values. Why would I, I'm not selling this car. After all I got it for a bargain.
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Pagodas are plenty, compared to some other MB models, so they will never be worth very big money, apart from the really exceptional ones. On the other hand, parts and labor on these cars are similar to the more expensive models. As a result, a very nicely restored pagoda will not fetch the cost of initial purchase plus restoration it went through. I agree the $15.000 rust buckets seem to sell better. But the real good deals are on the nicely restored $59.000 ones. Seller's loss is buyer's gain.
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When I went to look for my Pagoda about 5 years or so ago the first car I looked at was a grubby white Pagoda being sold by a Mercedes Benz UK member for £10,000 (around $8,000). She was a mess and the seller, Dave, after asking me a few questions told me to go away and save up a little more money, he told me it wasn't the car I wanted.
I bought my Pagoda last year for £19,000 and have a perfectly drivable car, which is admired by many and loved by me.
I met Dave again this year at a show, and remembering me, he came and looked over my car. Being a club member who is also a mechanic, he gave it the once over and told me that to have got his car to the standard of my car would have cost a minimum of £15,000.
If I wanted to get my car to be a £45,000 classic, then I would need to spend at least £30,000 (assuming I don't do it myself).
The morale of my tale? Buy the car you want first time.
...Even if the car you want is one you WANT to restore.
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The morale of my tale? Buy the car you want first time.
...Even if the car you want is one you WANT to restore.
That's well put. And even if you do the work yourself, you rarely recoup all the costs when resaling.
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I can sell a car at 14K to just about anyone who wants one.
My standing advice is to buy the best car that you can't affford.
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When it comes to ebay it is all about the photographs and how many browsers you can get to click the "bid now" button. When you start an auction at $0 with no reserve then you attract a lot of browsers and have a high chance that the price will get bid up. No matter how nice the product you sell it will be difficult to get more than prevailing rate. Some other seller will be less honest than you. He will take a can of shiny spray paint and make it look like his item is just as good as yours. If you price goes higher than his then you lose bidders. That's just the way ebay works.
In over simplified terms:
You are selling shiny bobbles to chimps. Get them to hit the red button and your price goes up. Try to sell them gold bars and they will still only pay you for shiny bobbles.
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i fully agree that pictures sell, be that on eBay or elsewhere. But them what is the conclusion? In my case, I think that the only way is to either buy from a serious restoration shop or if we take a risk to go through private sale, we should get accompanied by a Pagoda expert. neither option makes it cheap, as there is a premium to be paid in both cases, but this enables to avoid most risks and costly bad surprises.
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Check out this rust bucket. I can not find a part on it worth buying... It said Matching numbers????
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mercedes-Benz-SL-Class-280SL-SHELL-1968-MERCEDES-280SL-MATCHING-TITLE-HAND-RUSTED-CHASSIS-BODY-NO-/140877590523?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item20ccf56ffb
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wow, this is badly treted fellow indeed >:(. Sadly amazing how a 1968y 280SL may end up.
I don't know if it was serious or ironic, when they titled "THIS AUCTION IS ONLY FOR A MOSTLY INTACT, YET RUSTED, CHASSIS AND BODY SHELL ALONG WITH THE CLEAR TITLE"
Maybe the value is in the clear title, or maybe, if somebody is after a hardtop, then this maybe a go. ???