Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: jameshoward on April 05, 2013, 18:25:34
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Evening,
After years, I have finally managed to cobble together (largely thanks to another forum member in the UK) the parts I think I need to change my original 4,08 for a 3,46 from a donor car. My car is a late 230. I want to reduce the stress on the engine and be able to cruise a little more comfortably on those jaunts between Holland, or Belgium and wherever the next biennial event will be.
I have drums on my current axle, and I really like them. They're set up perfectly and the braking force created measures really well when the car was TUV'd recently (I live in Germany at the moment). I have no desire to change to discs, but do want to get the better ratio.
Having finally plucked up courage to start work, I prepped the car on Tue and dropped the axle yesterday.
(Cue: gratuitous photos of car with a rear axle, and then without).
There's more work than normal involved with this switch because of the conversion to discs, if that's what I decide to do. However, I was wondering whether I stick with the drums, thus avoiding lots of work, and keeping the car slightly less unoriginal. The only differences appear to be on the 3,46 disc axle, the addition of a welded bracket for the calipers, and the omission of the hole drilled through near where the shock mounts which anchors part of the brake shoe assembly on the 4,08 axle (shown in the photos).
I wondered what the learned counsel might offer by what of thoughts and advice. So please let me hear what you think.
Separately, whilst I have the Haynes Manual my BBB doesn't have the detail on rebuilding the diff carrier/upright. The Haynes manual glosses over the detail of fitting that wretched bush. I think I know from the book which order the various washers, bushes and O rings go, but if there's a BBB section that details it all, I'd be grateful.
Intermediate steps are next to drill a new hole in the flat spot on the 3,46 axle and re-locate the axle breather from the 4,08. That's tomorrow's fun and games.
Finally, a huge thank you to Waqas for the design of his spring compressor. That damn spring has been my nemesis for years and I've never managed to budge it. Having used Waqas' contraption successfully and seen the length of the thing when uncompressed, I now understand why I couldn't move it.
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James you've got big balls! Keep us updated
Neil
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I looked today about making up the by now well-documented alignment tool using copper pipes. I may go down this route to properly centralise the axle, or may use a plumb line. However, I was surprised to find that self-soldering copper joints don't seem to have made their way to Germany. We use them a lot in the UK. Can't find them here at all. The prospect of making the tool by soldering my own pipes is less attractive than using the plumb method. I wonder how others have fared without the copper pipe rig?
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I use a capernters square to set up the rear axle. Place the axle on the floor and get the tubes level on each side. Adjust the center pin so that it's at a 90 degree angle to the axles. I would do all of this before I place the axle in the car.
Adjustment of the scross strut will square the axle to the car but I really believe that the axle needs to be squared up first before you move to the next step. This is not something you can do after the axle is installed. The axle will move around alot while driving and I generally adjust the cross shaft to its original position which is fully screwed down. Not seeing any unusual tire wear, I have to believe that this must be pretty close to where it should be.
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I've used your method Dan, seems to work fine.
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Thanks, Dan,
I've read and printed every post I can find on this site that addresses the rear axle and have seen your comment many times. I fully intend to follow your advice, but can I just confirm what you mean by the cross strut? Do you mean the rod that goes through the subframe with the 2 bushes, one in the frame and one on the outside? My last effort fiddling with the rear axle resulted in my car having a grossly misaligned axle. I discovered today that the bushes (axle end) one of the trailing arms had bulged out and this the arm was massively off centre. I must have screwed this up a few years ago but didn't notice. My compensating spring has been rubbing against the fuel tank for a while, and this may have been the cause, or at least cause in part.
Interestingly, and separately, I spent a good part of yesterday with a German chap who works extensively on rally cars. Quite grown up stuff, not hobby. It's his families' living. (I left him my diff to drill for the breather from the original axle as I don't have a tap set, etc). Anyway, he has a friend who rallys a MB Cosworth 190 (mental car; I think he said about 350 bhp) but this guy also owns a 190SL parts site on the internet apparently. The SL guy saw my diff and asked about it and why I wanted to change it. It was explained to him that I wanted to lower the RPM and improve the cruising, protect the engine a little, etc. His view, interestingly, was that the axle change was a bad idea. He felt that the change from the 4,08 to the 3,46 was more likely to damage the engine and clutch given the stresses on the engine, etc.
Too late now, but I wondered if that had been discussed at some point.
James
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It has been mentioned many times James that these engines thrive on high revs and
are designed to do these revs all day. I guess if you load an engine up with high gearing
you are going put some strain on it i.e. like using too high a gear in the gearbox.
You have more control as you have a manual car and can hold the gears as long as you want.
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You have more control as you have a manual car and can hold the gears as long as you want.
That is also possible with an automatic - it does have a shift lever! :o ;D
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Larry HALL,
I`m with you. Why oh why do we keep tinkering with something that was designed by experts to run at certain revs - I think its a no brainer that by reducing the revs the engine and drive train is being loaded up - just like holding on to a gear too long up a hill before a change. I just wish that the concept would get through that this is a 50 year old car that was designed in a different era and should be appreciated and celebrated because of this difference.
oh dear, another wind mill to tilt at..............
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George (and Larry, I think, if I understand what you're saying),
I'm not not with you. But, George, the cars were designed and built 50 years ago when parts were cheap and plentiful. As none of us need reminding, that is no longer the case. A mere 20 years ago as a young soldier, I felt that my body was designed to do all sorts of death-defying things. With gay (not that kind) abandon I readily threw myself out of airplanes, ran every day with weight, did all sorts of Rambo courses, etc. When I got bashed up - which was regularly - I fixed pretty quickly and recovered completely. These days, it's a little different. My kness and back are shot after all sorts of breaks and bangs. I can't fix these problems, so I am far more careful about what I do. For that (long winded) reason, I think it makes sense to view these cars through a different lens today, unless one is fortunate enough to have very deep pockets indeed. Pagodas can, of course, be fixed at a price (unlike us) but my efforts, if perhaps misguided in the eyes of some, are aimed at reducing engine wear hence my quest for LOWER revs noting that the car was designed to run at high revs. Higher revs still equals more wear and more strain, no matter how you cut it. So surely lower - better?
How are those windmills looking?
James
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Never mind the windmills, where's Truly?
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... 50 year old car that was designed in a different era and should be appreciated and celebrated because of this difference.
oh dear, another wind mill to tilt at..............
Hello George aka "Don Quixote" ;)
I do celebrate my old cars and appreciate them very much but I do not need to hear their loud responses to my cheerful celebrations all the time.
So, a 3.27 axle in the 280SL suits me just fine.
Over the years many members here have done the switch and I bet if all these doomsday predictions were more than just predictions we would have heard about it here.
So, who out there has had engine problems caused by the different axle?
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Rightly or wrongly this is how I picture it: All things being as designed an engine will never wear as there is never
metal to metal contact only oil to metal. In the real world, as we know there is wear. This occurs when the engine is under load
such that the oil is forced out of the interface. The more load the worse the effect. So an engine spinning fast but under light
load is less likely to wear as an engine spinning slowly but under heavy load. Hope this makes sense.
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It does to me Larry
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You guys...
Actually, I'm not sure you are right, Larry. As in, I don't know. Wouldn't the wear on the engine be the same? Pistons going up and down, etc. they do what they do. Wouldn't the strain be flt more on the clutch or box?
Genuinely interested, but no clue what's really correct, which is probably why I'm so happy to proceed in blissful ignorance. That said, I can't go back now.
Your sacrificial but faithful guinea pig,
James.
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I think my reasoning is sound, it's all about the oil.
The real question is re the back axle mods is the engine under appreciable extra load that
will make a perceptible difference to engine wear. I think we have enough horses under
the bonnet not worry about it too much. Just don't labour the engine in any gear ;)
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Interesting topic and debate. I'm enjoying the well-presented arguments in this thread. I believe our 113s were supplied with a handful of final drive ratios, ranging from 3.69:1 to 4.08:1. I swapped mine from the 4.08 to 3.46 because first gear seemed unusable after the first few meters of travel. My original ratio was essentially the same as the go-to final drive (4.11) for quarter-mile drag racers Back in The Day (you remember, when winters were colder and we all had to walk uphill both ways to school and back - - and if you missed all that, maybe you've seen footage of the drag races; that was my original rear axle ratio); it was pretty much good only for maximum acceleration over a relatively short distance, and most certainly not for gas mileage. I've read that the original M-B intent might have been for Alpine driving; I can see where it would be useful in San Francisco or Santorini but seemed too rip-roarin' radical to me. On the other hand, I did spend most of my driving life with smaller, higher-revving engines than the typical US biggies, especially the laarge V-8s they went to in the sixties and after, so cruising in the company of a busy lot of machinery is just good company for me. It's my pet theory that those of us who prefer the lowest-revving ratios for their Pagodas tend to be folks who, down through their driving years, became used to the more peaceful and quiet experience of lower-revving big-block engines; different strokes for folks from different life experiences (pun not intentional but enjoyed). My swap moved the revs down 15% for any given vehicle speed in any gear. I seldom use fourth until we get up on the big slab. And then it's the same top gearing you get with the factory Z-F 5-speed setup ... within the parameters that M-B engineers originally decided suited their components.
[I believe I have Mr. Brough to thank for bringing that fine ratio to my attention: a pint, sir, should we live long and venture far enough.]
But is 3.27 a bridge too far? Only good reports so far. And it's been how many years since the first 3.27 swap? Before my time, possibly (Pagoda purchase & join date ~ 5.5 years back). No engine troubles to report?
I appreciate the debate, especially as it's been conducted in this thread. The range of change seems not unreasonable, being 20% at the maximum (3.27) and with the 113's original (or was it just the common european?) final drive ratio of 3.69:1 falling smack in the middle between 3.27 and 4.08. Perhaps if we heard from seriously well-informed experts as to the behaviors of lubricative barriers at various speeds and pressures. Meantime, the honorable and erstwhile gnuface employs the terms "appreciable" and "perceptible" in his recent post, which is where I think the crux of this matter is at, as 'twere, for the rest of us. "Just don't labour the engine in any gear": amen.
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Just back from an interesting day at Essen having met up with Naj, Achim, Oz, Tom and Kay. Great fun. Many, many 113s.
I learnt that as I make change the axle I also need to change the brake master cylinder. Should have known this, I guess, but didn't. Every day's a school day, as they say...
In order to avoid changing the reservoir I need the early 250 cylinder. One fellow mentioned that he'd recently got a brand new one for around $120 or so. Having looked at SLS and Niemoller the prices seem pretty mega at over €200. A quick 'man look' on the Internet shows some cylinders in the US for around $50 odd. Whilst clearly not original, it does seem to offer a more economical alternative. I think one brand was called Cargone or something. So, I wondered I others had experience of these after market cylinders, or are they a false economy? He's one link http://www.jcwhitney.com/master-cylinders/mercedes-benz-250sl/c15929d21638j1s21.jcwx
I will call MB on Monday to see what they charge. For the sake of reference should anyone else find themselves in this position, the MB for the 250 cylinder is: 001 430 8901. I think the following parts are also required: 0004 72 028 000 & 004 997 3245 (sels), and 000 586 0143 (repair kit).
Grateful for any pointers on the master cylinder options.
JH
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James,
you might be better off sticking with an ATE cylinder. What model brake booster do you have?
I believe the corresponding ATE p/n is 53733004237 - but I am not sure.
Least expensive one here is this one:
http://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?partnumber=0014308901
Here is aftermarket one (but better check to make sure it fits):
http://www.ebay.de/itm/150528632031
Good luck!
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Maybe I'm not too bright but I never bothered changing my master cylinder when I changed to the LSD axle last year. I did mount a brake force regulator though. I saw no difference in braking performance aside from the expected response from having rear discs.
R&T used to have section about new cars and somewhere in all of that was their wear index they came up with. It stands to reason that lowered RPM's will also lower engine wear. 3.46 is very close to the same speed as a 3.92 with a 5 speed so once in high gear you aren't hurting anything. However, that ratio is obtained through the trans while any axle gearing change affects all gears equally. 3.27 with an auto isn't a great choice in hilly country.
The cross strut I'm talking about goes through the frame as you state. Adjust it so that the threads are all taken up and it should be OK.
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Thanks, Alfred. I bit the bullet today and ordered the MB part (for an early 250). Will find out tomorrow what I have to pay for it :o.
Separately, today I've ordered another ton of bits. In the event that this is ever useful for anyone else, I'll post the PNs here as I go and to remind me when I lose the five thousand post-it notes that are scattered around my office with part numbers written on them.
First up, and most interesting was ordering the bearing for the right hand side (the conventional ball bearing). MB have a variety of numbers: 008 981 4225 seems to be the newest (others incl 001 981 1525 (now not recognised) and 002 981 2301). Naj gave me the FAG bearing number also, which is 6202/C3. MB want something like 20 euros for the part. A local shop wanted 46 euros. I found the bearing in the UK using the FAG manufacturers number for £2.70!!! In the end I found it here in Germany for 8 euros by NOT using the MB number. My advice is to use the FAG number. (Amazon.com has them for $10).
The master cylinder number is 001 430 8901. This is for an early 250 cylinder that, I am told, will enable me to use my existing reservoir. Also required are two seals: 000 472 028 000 and 004 997 3245, as well as the "repair kit" 000 586 0143 (no idea what's in there yet, but I'm told I need it...).
ATE discs, pads and handbrake shoes. This was made unduly painful by the muppet at MB giving me the front pads PN rather than the rear. I only just picked up on this having ordered the wrong pads. I found this to be a really helpful tool - the ATE online catalog: http://www.ate-na.com/generator/www/us/en/ate/ate/themes/60_online_catalogs/10_european_online_catalog_tecdoc_us.html
ATE rear discs PN is 24.0110-0185.1
ATE rear pads: 13.0460-4036.2
ATE handbrake shoes: 03.0137-0171.2
All of that info is available on the v good ATE website, but it took a bit of cross referencing to get there having picked up the first error courtesy of my local dealer.
Finally, and out of interest, I checked the lateral support that can at times get bent (Waqas' was, having read his post). It has 2 large rubber bushes on it, both identical (A 111 351 04 44). The exterior mount looked actually fine, but I had to remove the interior one to check the state of the rod. Glad I did. It was buggered. Given the difference between the two, I suspect that at some point some idle soul changed the exterior one but didn't do the interior one. (I've posted a photo below: they're the same part; the new one compared to the exterior mount, and then the interior one (the shortest)). I have also changed the rubber boot/grommet thing that the rod goes through, as this was also shot and could let water into the subframe. Whilst in there I've sprayed the interior of that part of the subframe with waxoyl for good measure. I'll put silicone around the boot, also.
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First up, and most interesting was ordering the bearing for the left hand side (the conventional ball bearing). MB have a variety of numbers: 008 981 4225 seems to be the newest (others incl 001 981 1525 (now not recognised) and 002 981 2301). Naj gave me the FAG bearing number also, which is 6202/C3. MB want something like 20 euros for the part. A local shop wanted 46 euros. I found the bearing in the UK using the FAG manufacturers number for £2.70!!! In the end I found it here in Germany for 8 euros by NOT using the MB number. My advice is to use the FAG number. (Amazon.com has them for $10).
Sorry. the correct FAG # for the left bearing is:
6208N/C3
6202 is a much smaller bearing, probably for alternator front etc.
Naj
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Yesterday doing this was terrrible. And expensive. I picked up the ATE brake parts, the new master cylinder, and a host of other bits and bobs that I didn't know I needed until now.
Today was better. A few pointers for anyone who tries to do this based on my experience.
First, changing the master cylinder was necessary, but a breeze. Most of the brake fluid has leaked out into my drip trays, so I just had to empty the reservoir, unscrew, pull it off and then remove the old MC. The rubber O rings and the rubber grommet were shot. Looking at the two MCs it's impossible to see a difference, but because I'm switching to discs from drums, I need to change to the early 250 MC. The switch over was very easy. You may need to cut a sliver off the grommet that goes in the rear-most fitting in order to get it in.
Next, I spent must of the day sanding down the areas that I forgot to cover up when the powder coating was done. Top tip: cover up all the surfaces that you don't want coated. For me, this meant the sides of the yoke and where the axle arms meet where the pivot pin goes. A dremel made it easier, but that stuff was on thick. I also cleaned up the bronze bushes in the yoke, and checked that the grease nipples still fed grease through (having been powder coated... :-\) They were fine after a quick bit of HP air-powered grease cleaned them out.
I also managed finally to disassemble the support strut thing (with the aluminium part on the end). Took some serious pressure on it, but it's done now, thankfully.
I also had to replace the bushes on one of the trailing arms, as they'd shifted off centre since I did the job a few years ago. This was probably caused by my failure to align the axle properly at the time; the cause of many woes. I used my trusty vice method, shown here. With two pairs of hands and bit of ATF as lubricant it takes about 2 mins a side to do.
Somewhat greedily, I've put a separate post up about the order of parts for assembling the pivot pin as I cannot find this info anywhere on the site, and I've spent hours looking. If anyone should know the correct order, I think it would be useful to capture it. I've photographed what I think it looks like, but it would be great to confirm it.
Still need to figure out exactly (or roughly) where to put the new brake compensating valve that I need to drill into the car. Probably tomorrow's work, together with putting the axle back together).
JH
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Thanks, Naj,
That's really helpful. I've got to go to the bearing place tomorrow anyway, so I'll get a price for it in case anyone wants to go down the (hopefully cheaper) non-MB route.
James
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So just called the bearing people. It seems that there are 2 different bearings. There's 6208N/c3, which is about £29, and 6208/C3, which is £9. (Who'd have thought...)
The difference between the two bearings is that the 'N' denotes that the bearing is manufactured for a circlip on the outer race. I'll take a look at the bearings that I took out of the old axle, but I don't recall there being a groove on the outer race. The 6208/C3 bearing does not have the groove and hence is cheaper to manufacture.
I now also now that the 'C3' means that the bearing is designed for high loads and relates to the additional clearances within the bearing to allow for expansion of the bearings themselves!
(I spoke to Jan at simplybearings.co.uk, who was very knowledgeable and helpful).
EDIT - the 6208/C3 is fine and a snip at £9. At that price we could change them monthly. What fun, etc... .
James
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Today was spent putting in the new brake lines for the conversion to discs from drums. What a pain that was. I've also plumped on where to drill the compensating valve.
Tomorrow will probably see me trying to put the axle together, noting GeorgeDes points about the sleeves that are an interference fit. Not looking forward to that.
Separately, after some great advice from Alfred, I have finally tracked down a supplier - actually they're making them for me - for the 90mm and 120mm 9mm wide clips tht secre the axle boot to the axle halves. I know the original lips are available, but I'm after stainless steel.
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Shorter day working on the car because I spent 3 hours driving around town trying to find a fine thread I think 14mm bolt to replace the original breather. Failed. What a bore. If anyone can advise on the proper specs for the bolt I'd be grateful. It's driving me mad. I've tried many and nothing fits. At this rate I think I'll have to weld up the original breather and make do. (I did get 75kg of play sand for the sand pit, and a tyre and rope for a swing. Much more fun).
I re-fitted the UJ with the long allen bolt. Learnt the hard way that I needed to jam the prop shaft flange to prevent it moving in order to get the 6.5 kgm needed to torque th thing down. I had locked off the axle half. Didnt work. I used stud lock (Loctite 270) on the bolt.
Thanks to Tom and having finally found job 35/5, I think I am about ready to put the axle together. I have found dry ice, but it's only available on Tuesdays. May try heat first. Tuesday's are bad. I think the order of washers-various is mostly cracked. Will post pics.
I have modified a piece of broomstick to assist with fitting the washers. I got the idea having read 35/5. As the pin goes in, the idea is that the makeshift pin is displaced. I did a dry run today and it makes quite a difference.
Any tips on the breather issue would be great.
James
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James,
If it is the adaptor that goes into the axle you want then a sump plug will do the trick.
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Thanks, Eric. Will look for one online, although one of the half shafts has to go to a machine shop to have a very well stuck in sheared wheel nut removed, and I may just ask them to knock something up for me.
Separately, I finally assembled the axle today. I didn't need dry ice, but did need to heat the sleeve to get it onto the pin. That worked perfectly. Thanks to Tom, I now have the washers in the correct order (I hope). Next steps are to put the brake lines on, then get ready to put the axle back into the car, and then stick the brakes on (I want to keep the weight of the axle down as much as possible so am going to leave off pretty much everything I can bar the compensating spring). I'm so glad I found 35/5, as it has some great tips on doing the work. Don't do this job without it (not that you'd need to, since it's now here, below). Needless to say, I'm wholly confused by the torque settings (35/0), which bear no resemblance to the descriptions of the parts in the chapters. So unnecessarily confusing, but maybe just me. MB must have had a whole dept of folk creating different names for the same part when it comes to describing the things to torque. Don't know why the couldn't use a diagram. Anyway, opted for "FT" in the most part and nothing has snapped thus far. Order of assembly from the circlip forward: large steel washer with curved shoulder, grooved brass washer (o-ring sits over the top of both), sleeve, thin steel compensating washer/shim sleeve, thin steel comp washer (o-rings sit over both) sleeve, grooved brass washer, thick steel washer (o-ring over both). Note that my original picture below is incorrect, as Tom pointed out. I had the washers in the wrong way around.
As per Dan's advice, I got the left hand axle tube level using a level (!) and then checked the carrier was at 90 degrees using a level, and set "distance 'a'" at the same time.
Yesterday I mounted the brake compensating value. The brake lines where a complete mission and a chronic PITA, but it's done now. On reflection, I should have used countersunk bolts, as I now have two bolt heads sticking up in the boot which will wear through my very old and possibly original boot mat. I'll make something to protect them.
For anyone else doing this job, I recommend using a piece of broomstick (or whatever) in order to build up the parts on the axle that is then displaced by the pivot pin when knocked through. It worked a treat.
JH
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Hi James,
could not find it in your description but did you also replace the axle rubber mount?
This is what it looks like: http://www.ebay.de/itm/221195823814
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Hi, Alfred,
Thanks for pointing that out. Yes, I did change that. Everything on the axle is new except the main bearing in the diff.
The old one on the axle I have removed - the 4,08 - is completely shot. The rubber has completely deteriorated.
The whole change is quite a big job, and very expensive in parts, but the additional costs for me are borne largely as a result of the change to discs. For those who already have discs its actually quite straight forward. So not complicated, really, just time consuming.
James
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Hello James,
Something is not correct with your assembly in pictures 2 and 3,the vertical mounting arm should not be so far back and does not have the rubber seal butt up against it.
When you install the axle and make and use the setting tool you will have to move the mounting arm forward to get it in the correct position.
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Panicked for a second, then, but realised that I'd taken the pics before I put in the clamping bolts, so at the point those pics were taken I hadn't set "distance 'a'" or put the arm at 90 degrees. So more recent pics would have been a better thing to post, but by then my 4 year old had visited and run off with the camera!
Separately, I'm just umming about reconnecting the axle and wondering if, just to make things easier, I connect one trailing arm without the spring, then connect the other putting the spring back in, and then - if you still follow me - undo the other arm and then replace the spring. I wondered if that wouuld stop things moving around quite as much as they have the potential to do when completing this work. Any thougths/top tips would be welcome.
James
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Have another look at picture number two, the O sealing ring should be at the other side of the bevelled washer.
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Since the breather fix only made it to this forum awhile after my axle swap was completed there are others who know more about it than I do, but I can tell you that it involves drilling into the left side axle housing through the 'flat spot' boss at twelve o'clock high, inboard near the pumpkin. [This apparently was the original site for the breather, maybe moved to avoid road crud.] It can be done with the axle assembled but is tricky and challenging - - to catch, contain and remove all the shavings generated by the drilling and tapping. Ideally, should be done during a proactive disassembly for cleaning, inspection, bearing & seal replacement. The fitting could be the one currently on your diff housing. Benz Dr. gave us this solution and chose to use an older version of the vent fitting; I dunno why but he tends to have his reasons. He may have been using this method for some time and might weigh in here to share. I can't say enough good about this fix for the 'barfing axle' issue, though it came to light too late for me. There are other remedies but this one is a great deal more elegant and, when installed during pre-installation servicing of the axle is also less hassle. I think we're not yet completely sure that this is "IT", but it just ought to be.
The mystery was compounded at the time by the fact that only ~ 15-20% of swapped axles 'barfed' out their lube. I looked inside and out, checked different models, worried, read and bothered any number of experienced and expert folks about why this should be. Finally -- I think it was posted here -- someone suggested that it may have been as simple as ~ 15-20% of the vents being clear and functional with the rest being sufficiently clogged as to prevent leakage. And I haven't heard a better idea on that one either. In fact, i think we haven't heard anything more about this problem since the Dr.'s solution was aired. So yes, we're engaged in proving a negative here: still early days for certainty but seems to be going well.
While the factory U-pipe needs adaptor-bushings to mate to the axle, engine (and axle?) sump drain plugs screw right in and leave the site looking pretty tidy. Sorry, no idea what plug fits the diff case vent location; my vent is still up there.
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Have another look at picture number two, the O sealing ring should be at the other side of the bevelled washer.
Eric,
Thanks. I realise that my photos don't help so I'm going to try to take them down and replace them. The second photo I realise isn't showing the the thick chamfered washer which would go to the right IDE go the grooved brass washer. The rubber o ring sits over the brass washer, as you know. I checked the car and although I was somewhat premature with th pics, the axle is at least correct. Very grateful for your keen eye!
Pagoden, thanks for posting the comment about the breather. In the initial post on this thread I made the point about getting a new hole for the breather on the flat spot you mention. That done, I moved the breather from the 4,08 axle - a small breather with a narrow and conical thread (obviating the need for an o ring, it seems) - to the new hole on the flat spot. The axle was flushed with kero, grease on the flutes of the drill bit, etc, to catch the swarf. The original breather (wider, but shorter) needs to go, but I'm still trying to find the right plug to replace it. I have blocked the breather holes with the oil drain plugs as previously discussed. I'll let folk know how that works. Thanks for your post.
James
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You're very kind, James. I apparently took off from the closing comment in your post #26. Silly me...again. Well, It's there for what use posterity may make of it.
Interesting, the variety of breathers. What thread did you find to accomodate the breather's taper?
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You're very kind, James. I apparently took off from the closing comment in your post #26. Silly me...again. Well, It's there for what use posterity may make of it.
Interesting, the variety of breathers. What thread did you find to accomodate the breather's taper?
Rather ashamedly, I have had to outsource three elements of this project. The first was to have the drilling and tapping done for the breather as I don't own a tap and die set, and a good quality one isn't cheap. I therefore do not know how they accomodated the tapered thread issue and probably won't ask! Second, due to a properly stuck and broken wheel bolt in the half-shaft, I got a local engineering firm to drill it out and re-tap it. Third, and because I have parts-fatigue, I asked them to find me a suitable bolt to replace the breather. As it turns out, they sent me an oil sump plug of French-car origin that will fit.
Separately, my custom made Norma type clips arrived yesterday. I'll post a pic if anyone is interested. I just hope I've measured correctly. At the same time my new brake hoses arrived (it's been 5 years since I last replaced them, so what the heck...). I think I now have everything ready to finish the job, except time.
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Well, it's been a while. Since my last update it's moved forwards and backwards. First, the major lesson having powder coated to axle is to really ensure that any powder coating is removed from anything that has anything bolted to it, through it or which fits onto anything, etc. almost all of the problems have been caused by the coating making things very hard to fit. Had a nightmare re-attaching the shocks, of all things. One got jammed half on, half off. In the end I had to remove the rubber bush from the steel sleeve and then press it back in. That was fun.
I have reconnected the trailing arms. I elected to reconnect one arm without the spring fitted in order to steady things, and fitted the spring to the other arm. I then went back the other arm and fitted that one. The cross strut was fitted last and the best way to do that seems to be to leave it completely unassembled and then assemble it with the axle in place. The prop shaft was then connected to the flange but not tightened behind the bearing at this stage.
Next steps are to build up the brakes and sort out the geometry. Then bleed the brakes, replace the coolant, and put the wheels back on.
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James,
I for one appreciate your detailed reports ... as painful as they probably are for you. I have considered the Axel Swap as a future project ... I'm gonna have to think a little harder.
Keep it up ...
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Oz,
Don't be put off, I think, just by my experiences. Many of the problems I've faced were home made. Not all, but some. Plus, I'm fixing other things as I go, and putting wrong stuff right. A straight forward swap without being fussy, and without the chore of converting drums to discs would be really quite simple. It's the brakes element of this that has been the major expense and greatest hassle. Even things like replacing all the brake lines, whilst not technically difficult, is a colossal PITA.
I'll let you know if(!)/how it drives, and whether it's been worth it.
Hope all well in Paris. Spring has finally sprung Germany. .
JH
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Not a great day.
Been off the car for a while due to other priorities.
It seems that I have a got the wrong handbrake cables. The ones I have wont fit the damn handbrake lever at the wheel end. It seems that I need a cable that has just a metal loop at the end (as opposed to the U shaped set up I have). So, having checked SLS and the EPC I am very confused how SLS managed to provide a different cable.
Also, I'm confused about which cable goes to the left wheel and which to the right. One is slightly longer than the other but I can't figure out which goes where. Can anyone also advise on the routing of the handbrake cable. I assume it goes over the top of the exhaust but am not sure. If that is the case, I would have thought there would be some heat shielding.
If that wasn't bad enough, because I have a 230 with drums and have converted to discs, I needed to put the compensating valve in. As those with drums will know, there is a small 'T' valve (it isn't a valve)/union thing that splits the pressure from the front to rear line and passes it out to the two rear drums. This bolts onto a small bracket. Because the bracket is welded onto the car, I didn't want to try to remove it and so placed the compensating valve next to it. Annoyingly, this means that the stock set of brake hoses won't fit because the left rear hose is now too far away from the line to which it must connect. I need a longer hose. The front hoses will do it, but are way too long. So if anyone in Germany or the UK knows anyone who makes the things to a custom length, I'm in the market.
If I'd remembered to take my camera I'd post some photos. I'll do this tomorrow.
James
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Thanks to Naj, I have now managed to sort the brake part issue without having to get new brake cables. My cables have a clevis fitting, unlike the 113 cables, which don't. Naj found me the PN for alternative handbrake levers. The PNs are: 115 420 1189. You will need 2. Cost €4.26 each.
You may need 2 roller pins 108 427 0074 @ €1.19 each. Worked a treat.
I now have all my Ate pads, shoes and discs and all are just about fitted. I need a torque wrench that will allow me to torque the trailing arms. Given the size of the socket, I need a step up to 3/4" and this makes it too wide to fit the inner bolts.
After that, it's a case of putting the exhaust back on, wheels on and then drop the car back down. After a bit of rocking about, I'll tighten up on the prop shaft at he large centre nut then stick her backside back in the air to do the alignment. I'll try the method mentioned here recently that avoids the use of the copper pipe contraption. Because I am now blessed with the dreaded circlip on the right axle half, I also need to sort that out by jacking the car to bring the tube to the horizontal. Then it's fill and bleed the brake system (have replaced all hoses as the others were 7 years old), then test drive. :o
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.../... Can anyone also advise on the routing of the handbrake cable. I assume it goes over the top of the exhaust but am not sure. If that is the case, I would have thought there would be some heat shielding
Yes, the right cable does run over the exhaust. To keep its sheathing from being fried there is a rubber ring which lifts the cable up, free from the top of the muffler. This rubber ring is attached to the side support. You can equally well use a cable tie to fulfil this task
/Hans in Sweden
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Here's what mbzse is talking about.
Tom Kizer
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Thanks, guys. I have taken the cheaper cable tie route. I figured out the routing eventually, having paused to actually think. Ditto which cable goes on which side. My new cables didn't have identifying PNs on them. Probably obviously, the longer cable goes on the right axle.
I have some pics to post soon. Will get them uploaded at some point.
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Think Automotive in Isleworth will make stainless braided hoses to whatever length you require and for about the same price as the original ones.
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Just to close this thread...
I managed to install the rear axle a few months ago, but then had to go overseas. With the axle installed, I found I had an annoying clunk when driving. Investigation led me nowhere and because I had to go away again, I gave in and trailered it to a Pagoda specialist a few hours from me. By the time we got the car there, and test drove it with the mechanic, the clunk had gone. I couldn't replicate it at all. It could be that the car bounced around on the trailer so much that someone just went into place. No idea, but it was fine.
Because the car was there, and because it was about to have it's MOT (UK annual road worthiness test) I asked him to look at my work. I was pleased that he said it had been done properly. Thanks to the forum and it's generous members, everything he went to look for, he found. He said that most of the conversions he sees don't incorporate the brake balancing valve (my eternal thanks to Joe!); many more don't drill a hole for the bigger breather (on the flat spot by the pumpkin), etc, and so it went. He did pick me up for a brake line routing that I accept was done at the end of a long day, and was pretty poor. He fixed that for me. The cars brakes work very well and she flew through the MOT (once I'd addressed a few separate rear light issues documented in another post).
On collecting the car, I drove her back home, but noticed that she sounded a little 'blowy'. That was when I found the rear exhaust manifold had cracked. I finished replacing that earlier this week, and yesterday, rather nervously, took the car out. I have messed with the linkage a little doing the manifold, because the car is hunting at idle now, but I'll tune it later. However, she runs superbly on the new rear end. The acceleration is less pronounced, but I've gained 10MPH for the same RPM around 60+ and obviously the difference increases significantly after that (I did have a GPS and wrote down the speeds, but have lost the paper. Alfred has documented it perfectly anyway using his graph). On long, steep hills, I can't really use 4th, but that's OK. I did this to make the car cruise better, and it does - much better.
To those who are thinking of doing this, I would say it's worth the hassle. Doing it on a 230 is a lot more work because of the need to change the complete brake system from drums to discs, including the lines and the master cylinder. It would be quite simple on a 250 or 280. The only major emotional drama was breaking the rear exhaust manifold. I stuffed that up but not tightening the bolts correctly to the downpipes. I probably just cranked them up, without doing each one a little at a time. Expensive lesson learned.
Thank you everyone who helped and advised along the way. This place is a great resource. I'm especially grateful to Naj, who has been so helpful off line.
I'm now hoping to be able to just drive the car and enjoy it rather than lie on my back staring at her underside.
Here are a couple of links to specific problems/questions I had along the way, which may help others going down this route (there are a zillion rear axle posts on the forum, and I've read them all. Every one contains useful info, and some of them vast amounts).
This post deals with the assembly order for the rear pivot pin: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=18312.0
This thread deals with the carrier bush, (through which the above said pin goes), should anyone wish to try to remove it: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=12903.25
This shows the compensating valve/balancing valve that is needed when converting drums to discs: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=18261.0
This post also talks about converting drums to discs: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=10947.0
I found this to be a really useful thread (not mine): http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=1195.150
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Now all you need to do is:
- get a Full membership to get access rights to write in the Wiki, Technical Manual
- and with your newfound knowledge and summary write it up as a single, coherent piece in said Technical Manual
Many would then be eternally grateful to you!
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I would be eternally grateful, there are a lot of posts there that James should be adding into the Tech manual for others to access, and be grateful to him for doing so :o
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No pressure then Jamie ;) :D
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::)
Hard sell. They'll be offering to tarmac my drive or fix my roof next...
But I'll start to write it up.
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When I changed my axle to a LSD I didn't change the master cylinder from the old drum brake unit. I have very good brakes so I'm going to say that it's probably not needed.
The rear axle vent sure had a lot of discussion but I think it's fairly simple. Some axles are in better condition than others and this may cause them to produce more heat. Don't panic if your is one of the ones that leaked - it may not mean there's any problem with your axle at all.
6.3's have the vent on the right tube and most everything else had it on the side of the diff housing - the 4.5 seems to be alone on this configuration but then it has a cooling tube. The tube is the key here as the moving crown gear throws all of that hot oil right at the upper tube opening. Without this tube in place the oil can splash back against the vent tube opening. Moving the vent to a location far enough away from splashing oil will mitigate those problems.
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James,
for those considering this swap the attached table illustrates the modifications