Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: travellerdogs on June 13, 2013, 06:19:42
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The car has been sitting with old gas in it for a number of years. I've rebuilt the whole fuel system, tank, lines, pump, cleaned the injector lines. rebuilt the fuel damper etc. Basically gone through the whole system. Ready to fire the car up but can't get any fuel out of the injection pump. I got fuel going in and fuel returning and plenty of it. The pump is putting out big time. However, the plungers are seized up.I tried to move the rack with the 5mm threaded bolt after I removed the rubber cap on the end of the pump toward the front of the engine. It won't move. I have taken the fuel feed line and fitting and return line and fitting off the pump. I have pumped some carb cleaner into the pump and plugged the holes with pipe plugs. I also have put carb cleaner in the injector line fittings on the pump. I don't know how to get the valves out that are under the line fittings, by researching I need a special tool to pull them out with. Any ideas how to remove them as I can then put some carb cleaner down the holes so as to drench the plungers with. They are obviously seized from sitting all those years and the gas has turned to varnish. I would like to take the side plate off but it's in a hell of a spot to get to, probably if I removed a bunch of things I could get at the plate from underneath on the hoist. I don't want to take the pump off as that's a **** of a job also. I've been on this site now for several evenings and reading and checking everything I can find on the pumps and am familiarizing myself on them. Would like some suggestions as I am stumped. thanks, carey
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Did you try to move the crank at the lower pulley? this should move the pistons in the pump, I would try and give it about ten rotation while adding some carb, cleaner in the lines. Your next option and my choice would be to take the pump off, it really isn't that bad. a couple of hours you should have it out.
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Take the pump off the engine. You will save time in the long run and the end result will be much better.
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That pump needs a full rebuild.
If I could find fault with this site for anything, it would be for leaving the notion that you can fix things like this yourself with limited info gleaned from reading here. It is possible to make some simple repairs but most of the internals require the knowledge and tools to do so and I don't know of any pump rebuilders on this site.
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U might want to try liquid wrwnch or fogging oils and leave for 7 days
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To Dan, I never said I was trying to rebuild the pump myself. Just trying to free it up. If a person doesn't try to figure things out by researching then how would anybody learn anything in this world. If you never try to solve a problem then you've never tried to do anything in your life.
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To Dan, I never said I was trying to rebuild the pump myself. Just trying to free it up. If a person doesn't try to figure things out by researching then how would anybody learn anything in this world. If you never try to solve a problem then you've never tried to do anything in your life.
Well, you can try. Even if you are sucessful it still may not work right. After working on MB cars for 35 years I think I've earned the right to voice my opinion. 8)
External adjusments on FI pumps can be done by anyone with average skills. Once you get into the gut works it's a whole different deal.
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Dan, I was only trying to do the external adjustments as well as freeing up the pistons and rack which by all accounts from our members can be done successfully. I will have it rebuilt if I feel I can't get this right. I probably am going to have to remove it from the engine which looks like a nasty job. I am going to check it this morning and see if the carb cleaner is doing anything. I am going to try to remove one of the valves under the #1 injector line fitting as this is seems to be held down by the injector line fitting when it is torqued down. I want to get some carb cleaner down on top of the plungers. Meanwhile I appreciate your input and I do know when something is beyond my capabilities. That being said I will send it off to New York for a complete rebuild. Carey
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Hello Travellerdogs,
Dan's right, you probably cannot fix it yourself. However we will help you fix it using your hands and your eyes! Ask questions, keep us up to date.
The rack will not move since some of the pistons are stuck. Remove all fuel injection lines from the injection pump. Next remove the 19mm fittings on the IP. Below you will see the check valves. They are threaded on the outside. You can remove them by simply screwing a fitting over them then pull them out. It is a metric thread, however you can find a brass SAE fitting close enough to start and do the job. When all the fittings are out, soak them with penetrant then rotate the engine. You will see that some pistons do not move up and down. These are the ones causing the problem. Re-soak the pistons with rubbing alcohol. Alcohol is best for desolving fuel varnish. Rotate the engine again. Allow penetrant and alcohol to soak in. Exercise the rack by hand also.
If the pistons still do not free up, gently tap them down. Use a soft metal rod or hard wood. If the piston does not tap down, the cam under it may be holding it up. Turn the engine till the piston does tap down. Be gentle. Keep working on all pistons until they are free and move up and down when the engine is turned. The rack will be completely free after all the pistons are freed up. Take your time and let the solvents work. During re-assembly it is critical to torque the 19mm fittings on the IP to 21 ft. lbs.
Keep us up to date. Ask questions for more details.
Joe Alexander (ja17)
Blacklick, Ohio
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Hi Joe and thank you very much for clear and concise "how to do" instructions. I have got oone injector fitting off #1 on pump, wasn't clear on how to get the little valve out, I do see that it is threaded on the outside. I can probably come up with a brass fitting in either metric or SAE that can fit on the treads. I am using carb cleaner but I do have a big can of pure alcohol. One question, can I get the rack to move while the injection pump is installed on the engine. I did remove the rubber cap on the front of the pump and managed to thread a 5mm threaded bolt into the rack, but by pushing on the bolt nothing moves and I don't want to force it. I have removed the fuel inlet and return lines and fittings and pumped carb cleaner in the pump and plugged the holes with a pipe plug to keep the cleaner in and also blew some compressed air into one of the holes. So far no movement. I took #4 fuse out to disable the fuel pump and turned the engine over with the injector lines undone, nothing. I have some carb cleaner in each injector fitting so if anything loosens it would blow the cleaner off the fitting. Although, in the beginning I was getting a small amount of fuel leaking out of the #1 injector fitting. Was going to take the pump off but will follow you advice first to see if anything works. I have good pressure at the inlet line as I loosened the fitting on the cold start line off and it shot gas clear across my shop. Anyways, thanks so much. Carey
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Hello Carey,
The pistons in the IP rotate as well as move up and down. The rotational movement of the pistons is what regulates the volume of fuel while the upward movement is what creates the compression pressure. When the bores of the piston get corroded or varnished, the pistons go to the top of the bores and stick there instead of following the cam back down. The rack is the device which rotate the pistons, the cam below move the pistons upward. So when a piston sticks in the bore it also refuses to rotate and thus the rack becomes stuck.
You can use some slight force to move the rack. Movement of the rack will help free the pistons since you will be rotating the pistons in their bores. You will need to remove all the pressure valves to see the top of the pistons and to soak them. Turn the engine to see which ones stay stuck at the top of the bores. Once all the pistons begint to move up and down with engine rotation, the rack will become free and easily moved.
In some cases the "cylinder" or bore will move upward with a badly stuck piston during the procedure. If this occures it must be carefully moved back down into place, since it is critically "keyed" to be in one position.
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If the bore moves with the piston isn't already screwed up? Any rust in the cylinders and they're not going to work very well even if you are able to free them up.
My point is simple. This can get you going sometimes but not every time.
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You can use some slight force to move the rack. Movement of the rack will help free the pistons since you will be rotating the pistons in their bores. You will need to remove all the pressure valves to see the top of the pistons and to soak them. Turn the engine to see which ones stay stuck at the top of the bores. Once all the pistons begint to move up and down with engine rotation, the rack will become free and easily moved. [/i
I had the same problem a few weeks ago. A piston was stuck up and not be separated from the outside. We had to remove the injection pump. "Injection Ernst" our friend and specialist in the MB club had to take the pump apart and was able to solve the problem after some time. The pagoda is also not moved 13 years and everything had to be cleaned. The tank had to be replaced. We have also installed new injectors.
Now it runs like new.
"Injection Ernst" Reinkemeier comes also to Willingen to the meeting. He is been 81 years " old " now, but like a young man.
Peter
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Gentlemen, i recently bought a spare engine out of a 280SE , is there something i can do to prevent my IP from freezing solid ?
Thanks
Mark
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Gentlemen, i recently bought a spare engine out of a 280SE , is there something i can do to prevent my IP from freezing solid ?
Thanks
Mark
Hi Mark,
I think if you keep the pump indoors without being exposed to moisture I think you'll be fine.
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My 230sl was standing for 20 plus years when I rescued it. I took of the pump, it was easier to work with and worth the effort. My rack was not moving and the pistons where stuck. Take Joe's advice, use a golf T or a rod with a nice flat end and give the piston a solid tap. Don't hammer,, just a solid tap....art to it.
Freed mine up, the car still runs like a dream, 4 years on. Try it, you may be lucky.
Hope this helps.
MBP
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Hi Joe, finallly got the rack freed up. It returns on it's own. Took a quite a bit of fiddling. I used pure alcohol, tapping the pistons down gently,
I had several cylinders move up, tapped them down with a piece of 1/2 inch copper pipe. I tapped the pistons down with a piece of 1/4 inch coated steel brake line with a piece of electrical tape on the end so as to not damage the top of the piston. But the thing that really made it possible was this special penetrating lubricant that I had on the shelf for a few years, quite expensive. It's called Fluid Film and its made by NLS Products in Bobcaygeon, Ontario. Beats WD 40 by a mile. I also used alcohol with it. This stuff works by capillary action and doesn't dry out, drip, impregnates exposed metal and and keeps moisture and oxygen out. Incredible stuff and I've used it for a few years on my Bobcats. I made a check valve puller out of a brass 5/16 steel brake line connector, the treads were close to the ones on the check valve and then I used a 1/2 inch bolt screwed into the other end of the connector, worked like a professional tool. I'm letting it soak for the weekend and will work it continually over a few days and then clean it out and hook the feed and return lines up and see what happens. I took the injector lines off as a unit in preparation of removing the pump so there lots of room to get at things. The rack pushes in easily and returns quickly, so far I'm cautiously optomistic. Thanks to everyone who offered their help. Will keep the site informed. The posting of this kind of information is invaluable for guys like me that want to learn about our cars and do most of our own work. I love a challenge also. Thanks, Carey
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Sounds great Carey. Once the rack returns on its own, all cylinders of the IP should be able to pump fuel.
Make sure the injection pump fittings are installed at 21 ft. lbs. for your 280SL. Soaking your injectors in some of your solvent can also be helpful in case they are stuck.
Before start up you should remove the spark plugs. Crank engine with the injection lines off to see fuel emerge from each fitting of the fuel injection pump. The fuel which emerges from the pump will be quite small in quantity. Hold the accellerator linkage full open to increase fuel delivery quantity. Once fuel emerges from all fittings, install the injection lines, leaving the fittings at the injectors loose. Crank the engine again until fuel emerges from the injection lines at each injector. Tighten each injector as fuel emerges until all injectorlines are primed and tightened. Install the spark plugs and attempt start up. You may have to do a bit more cranking.
Keep us up to date!
Joe Alexander (ja17)
Blacklick, Ohio
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Thank you again Joe. Several questions: can I buy the seals that fiit under the check valve. Also you mentioned that the cylinders in the IP are keyed, so if they were pushed up when I was freeing the pistons does that mean they could be out of wack. They only came up maybe 1/4 to maybe 3/8 inch or so. Then on to the injectors themselves, when I remove them are there specific seals under them and can you buy them. I can soak them in carb cleaner and alcohol and blow them out if that's permited. Another thing I read in the tech articles that the car should fire on the CSV even if the injectors are not getting fuel. \makes sense as the fitting come off the fuel inlet before the IP. I undid the little #8 metric head bolt on the CSV and nothing came out of it but could there be a blockage in there also as the gas could have gummed it up. I had the engine fired up several days ago by squirting fuel in the intake, it fired up several times and it blew a mouse nest out of the tail pipe, lots of seed and sunflower seeds and carbon. When I bought the car 4 years ago I filled the cylinders with tranny fluid and had all the lines off and cleaned and painted and baked them. New plugs, points, cap, condensor, points at 14 or 16, ballast resistor etc. have to check my notes. The whole fuel system as been gone over and I got 1 litre fuel in 11 seconds on the bench test. I have gone over everything possible all new rubber lines on the engine, fuel lines, rebuilt my old style Bosch fuel pump, had it apart several times till I got it right. So I hope I'm getting close. Been a long restoration. Sincerely, carey
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Carey : great to hear you managed to free the Ip : its persistance that acomplishes it.
I have had some luck in the past using ultrasonic cleaning ; anyone with similar experiences?
Shaun : Quote "I think if you keep the pump indoors without being exposed to moisture I think you'll be fine."
The problem is a bit bigger then you imagine i think , i have had an engine sit for a year showing already gummed up petrol/soot in the injection system.
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Hello Shaun,
The CSV is probably stuck. Remove the metal line going to it and the fitting. The metal intake fitting has a very fine filter screen It can be varnished up. Clean it, check it. Before installing the fitting, check the small "cone valve" in the body of the CSV,(in front of the fitting) to make sure it is free, probably stuck also. The electric solenoid pushes it open from the other end. Check the electrical solenoid to see if it works.
Yes the IP seals are available. The part number is on this site somewhere. Not sure where the best place is to get them. Maybe the dealer or an authorized Bosch store if you get the Bosch part number. It usually will work to re-use them, but best to replace them.
The copper seals at the injectors are never an issue. Low pressure and it is a suction situation at that end. I have seen these seals left off altogether with no issues. If you re-use them, apply a little grease to help the bare metal parts seal up without gaulding. Do not over-tighten them. Treat them like a spark plug, same thread diameter i believe. Here again new is best, but re-using these is no problem. They are solid copper and really do not wear out. They are easily available from the MB dealer if you have the MB parts number.
The engine may not fire up on the CSV unless all the starting aids are working. Not much chance of this after the long period of storage. We can go through this system next as needed.
First start will require some cranking, as only very small quantities of fuel are delivered from each cylinder of the IP. Those long injector lines take a lot of revolutions to fill. As mentioned, leave the spark plugs out to prime up the system.
Sounds like the engine is run-able if it starts on starting fluid. Your close. Keep us up to date.
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This is an update on the seized IP. Think this thing is toast. I now have two IP cylinders rotating with the pistons when I turn the engine over. Joe mentioned something about the cylinders being keyed. I am imagining there are something like a key that keeps them from rotating when the piston rotates as it is pumping up and down. Also the rack gets stuck when the cylinder rotates. I am going to remove the pump from the engine, and take the side cover off on the bench. Not sure what to do next, maybe remove one of the affected cylinders and pistons, #3 and #5 are both rotating. I have the blow up photo from Joe of the dismantled pistons, cylinders, spring, check valve, gear etc. Will call H&R and check about sending it for rebuild if I can't figure this out. On the subject of the seals for the IP check valve, one of the seals has a slight scoring on the face, I'm assuming that these are for the purpose of sealing and if they seal then it shouldn't be a problem. I can get copper washers locally from equipment supply houses ie: Bobcat, Kubota, John Deere dealers providing they are not something special. Would appreciate some input on this as it is very welcome from all of you that weighed in and I thank you all, Carey. Shaun, can I put 12 volts to the solenoid to see if it clicks with out hurting it. I could undo the wires before hand. I have no one to turn the engine over while I listen.
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Don't throw in the towel too soon Shaun, you are close.
If the cylinders are rotating with the pistons, the pins holding them in place backed off when the cylinders were pushed back down into the IP. The other ends of the pins are visible after the outside cover of the IP is removed. Simply remove the cover and tap the two pins back home. You may have to move the rack back and fourth and feel your way back into the groove. Once the pins are in place the cylinders will no longer rotate and the rack may be once again stuck. Just free it up as you did before. Just five or six screws hold the cover on. You will see the pins that moved out of place once the cover is removed. The cylinders have a verticle slot milled in them to meet the pins. IP removal not needed, but it is your choice. Here is a picture.
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Here is a close up of the IP piston and cylinder. Note the verticle groove which recieves the pin to keep the cylinder from rotating.
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Thanks again Joe, that`s a relief, will try that tomorrow. Gonna be a tight fit to work down the side of the IP, will move some of the fuel lines and anything else in the way. will have to use a piece of mirror as it`s hard to see down the side being that the pump is mounted on an angle. Got my fingers crossed this will work. Could take the pump off if all else fails. Carey
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Taking the pump off is really not that big a deal so don't be afraid to 'go there'. Just make sure on re-installation you line up the markiings as explained on this forum. Good luck, almost there!
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Thanks Joe, am going to take your advice. Your opinion and advice is much appreciated. Will post the results on the outcome. Carey
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Thank you Cees, didn't look at the name. Am gonna take the pump off. Just seems too much hassle trying to work around all that equipment and I would like to get a better look at the inside where the plungers and rack is and how it operates. I'm assuming I can make a gasket for the side cover. I have all types of material for that. The local MB dealer is a distance from me and usually slow as most parts have to come out of Toronto or Germany. Thanks. Carey
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The gasket is a rubber o-ring type material. It can be re-used bu,t as usual, best when new. The two support brackets on the rear of the IP are a can be a bit of a challenge to dis-connect. Removing the main fuel filter canister will help access the lower IP flange nut.
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Hi Joe, finally got IP off. Took me more than a couple hours and I have a hoist. Had trouble getting the valve cover off as it was not clearing the hood latch on the firewall. Had to loosen off the trans mount bolt and jack the trans up to get the cover to clear the latch. I had the car up and cleaned the marks on the harmonic balancer and marked them with white paint TDC and 20 ATC and then watched the #1 intake and exhaust cam lobes. They were up off the valves for compression and the #6 lobes were down on the valves for intake along with the distributor rotor at #1 on cap. . When I finally got the IP off it looks like the gear is off one spline on the IP cam gear. Not sure how critical that is but will try to turn engine back a degree to make them match. After watching the hoist lifting the car I see the motor and whole drive train dropping with the suspension. I learned that earlier last week when I had problems with the linkage on the trans jamming on the skid plate when I put a new bushing on the shifter shaft on the trans. When I let the car down on its four wheels everything then worked with lots of clearance for the linkage as well as giving me lots of clearance for the removal of the valve cover. I'm learning a lot as I go along. Now on to the pump. I have it on the bench, the pins are in place as they are pinned in place with a fine punch on the edge of the hole so they cannot come out. I pulled #2 cylinder out with a magnet, took a look at the cylinder and looked down the bore, I observed the pin protuding into the bore. I dropped the cylinder down and got it to drop over the piston. When I move the rack it is not spinning but it wants to push up. I figure when the check valve is installed and the fitting torqued down it will be unable to lift, am I right? #6 also wants to lift and rotate but I got it seated also. I am going to tap the pins in a bit and pin them with a punch on the two that are lifting. I think I got this thing figured out so far. Everything looks good and moving freely. Pistons rotating and pumping up and down freely. I am going to make a new gasket for the end of the IP at the block just for insurance. The rubber gasket looks usable on the side plate, would like a new one if it were available. Gonna wash everything out with varsol and alcohol and clean it all up and reinstall the side cover. Hope it works. I'm going to check the solenoids by putting 12 volts to them and go over the CSV solenoid and take the fitting off as advised and check the screen and valve for movement. I damaged a trans cooler line at the radiator when I left a wrench on the power steering pump used to turning the engine over manually. Then hit the starter later and forgot the wrench on the pump, it jammed on the rubber cloth line to the bottom of the rad. Tomorrow I will look at this all with fresh mind and see where I got from here. Till then, will keep you guys posted, Carey
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Hello Carey,
Yes, when the check valves are in place the cylinders on the IP will stay put. You may want to tap all the pins a bit. If everything is moving and free, you should be good to go. The injection timing is not super critical, just line up the marks on the pump and return the engine to 20 ATDC. Best to always turn engine in normal rotation, so you may have to turn it two revolutions if you are past 20 ATDC now.
The transmission oil cooler lines are low pressure. In a pinch, you can skin the metal crimps off the old line and re-use the fitting with new stock fuel line hose clamped to the fittings. This is a good emergency or temporary fix. Do not use stock water hose.
The Sub-frame mounts are most likely bad on your car, allowing the front suspension to drop too far when the car is lifted with the suspension dangling. This is a project for another day.
Good luck, keep us posted.
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Hi Joe, will try to fix that trans cooler line, got lots of fuel line here in stock. Several of the cylinders in the IP seem to have a bit of sideways slop in them, is that normal? This pump has been off the car previously as I noticed a few things that were not just right, looks like homemade gasket on pump end and other things. My experience on working on cars I usually can tell if something has been removed previously. The BBB says the car must be resting on all for wheels before doing any linkage adjustments so there is probably some movement of the drive train when you lift the car. When I did the linkage I dropped the car on 4 big aluminum car rims and then climbed under the car and hooked up the linkage and also checked to make sure I could shift into all the gears. Subframe bushings are probably bad as the car has just over a 100K on the odometer. I have other later SL's so am familiar with the bushings. Thanks for the input, Carey
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Yes, a bit loose is ok, since the fit of the cylinders in the outer IP housing is not that precise. The fit of the IP pistons (plungers), in the IP cylinders, is very precise and is measured in millionths of an inch! It is so precise that no seal or piston ring is used on the IP pistons (plungers). The seal is made by engine oil which is fed into a circle groove in the cylinder wall. The metal oil line attached to the back of the IP delivers the oil to the IP cylinders from the engine block.
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Yes, a bit loose is ok, since the fit of the cylinders in the outer IP housing is not that precise. The fit of the IP pistons (plungers), in the IP cylinders, is very precise and is measured in millionths of an inch! It is so precise that no seal or piston ring is used on the IP pistons (plungers). The seal is made by engine oil which is fed into a circle groove in the cylinder wall. The metal oil line attached to the back of the IP delivers the oil to the IP cylinders from the engine block.
I would have loved to be present at the time of designing and engineering this pump in Germany, what a precise piece of equipment.
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I got a couple questions. First, how critical is the torque specs on the IP fittings that hold the check valves down. My torque wrench is a half inch drive Snap On but it is an older unit and could be out of calibration. I have a new inch pound one but it only goes up to 200 inch pounds and converted that is just over 16 lbs. Tech article says 21.7 foot lbs. It has to hold the check valves down and seal them. Sounds like I read here that the line fittings then are torqued less that the check valve fittings. Makes sense as the check valve fittings would not have to be held when tightening the fuel lines. Next: How much oil do I put in the side cover before buttoning it up. Also if the engine turns CCW then that would make the IP pump turm CW as it runs off the cam that also turns the Distributor. Just want to make sure for when I install the IP for timing purposes. Appreciate some input on these issues. Thanks. Carey
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I guess you need a 3/8 torque wrench. ;D
The pipe fittings should have small blocks on them that prevent the fittings from turning loose. If they're not on your pump, someone probably removed them. I'm thinking the specs are important for this job. IP's are sensitive to things being done right.
Don't worry too much about filling the pump with oil because it will fill from the engine as it runs. The pump turns in the same direction as the engine, which is clock wise. Always turn the engine in this direction while doing any timing related precedure.
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Hello Carey,
If you torque the fittings too much, you can crack the IP housing. Too loose and it may not pump at all.
The pump turns the same direction as the engine.
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Thanks Dan, got a proper torque wrench coming tomorrow. Also I marked the gear in the block where the IP mounts and watched it move. It goes CCW with the engine. I'm working alone here so I have to climb up a ladder to the engine when car is on hoist. Lots of up and down ladder. I saw the litle blocks on another blow up of an IP. Wondered about them. Everything is coming along pretty good, got the injectors soaking. Still lots of things to check. Going to torque the fittings and install the pump. My timing chain is loose and the top shoe is worn. Should the chain tensioner tighten it up when the engine is fired up. Gotta look in manual to see how the setup is. I got the engine exactly on 20 degrees ATC. Thanks, Carey
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Just wanted to clarify a point. I am looking to front of car when under the hood and that is why I say the engine is turning CCW. I should be standing in front of the car and then the engine is turning CW. All depend where you're standing. My mistake. Carey. Not used to working on cars with the hood hinged from the front.
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When ordering parts you should always state which side of the car you are talking about from the seated postion inside the car. When working on the engine you generally refer to things from the front of the block.
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Thanks Dan, I usually am sitting in car when ordering parts for cars. Drivers side is Left, Passenger side is right. I screwed up on the rotation looking from the car seat. I got the IP check valve fittings torqued to 20 ft lbs, I,m used to working on old bikes so I don't strip to many threads. I understand that overtightening could crack the housing. So for ordering engine parts you're saying the opposite applies? Carey.
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No, not really. If you were to order a motor mount it could be LT or RT as seen from driving position.
When it comes to the engine, you would still be ordering LT or RT valve cover gaskets on a 450SL as seen from seated position. This is where it becomes a bit different because number one piston is always at the front of the engine and on the right bank on a V8. Because you might be turning the engine over by hand, and you would be standing in front of the engine while doing this, it's stated as clock wise. So I think that for the most part, we are really only talking about engine rotation while mostly everything else is stated from driving position.
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That's where I find it a bit confusing. All the years working with chevy small blocks that is how I did things. Guess I should continue doing that. Thanks, Carey
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Hello Joe, I got the car running. Put everything back together. Followed your instructions,got the fuel up at the pump, then got it at the injectors. Went over all the solenoids, CSV, Soaked injectors in Carb cleaner then alcohol for a few days. It fired up on the first turn of the engine and ran and idled. Now for fine tuning. Thanks, Carey
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Congratulations Carey!
Keep us in the loop while your doing the tuning. Learn what the split linkage CO test is all about. That will help you along.
Joe Alexander (ja17)
Blacklick, Ohio
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This thread was great. My SL had, due to my own neglect, been sitting for years, and the injection pump gummed up.
Drained the tank, followed the directions on this thread to "tap" the cylinders/pistons free, soak with alcohol and Liquid Wrench, and it fired up last night! Took several days of soaking and tapping, but I was so excited I did not have to take the pump off the engine.
Other than to say thank you, I wanted to pass the tip that I used a quick release air nipple (like you have on the end of an air-ratchet) to screw down on the check valves as a removal tool. Threads on easily and provides plenty of bite to pull out the valves.
Now I am back to working on the car for the reason I parked it - the IP is gushing oil from, I believe, the lower rear corner of the inspection plate. I hope it is just tightening down the plate or replacing the gasket, and not from between the IP piston housing and the back half.
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Now you just need to do the Split Linkage Tour and you are away.
Join as a Full Member and you can access that area in the Tech Manual. ;) ;) ;)
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450SL,
I usually store injection pumps by pumping automatic transmission fluid through them then capping the inlets and outlets. They actually make a storage fluid to do this as well.
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Well the car runs great, but oil is indeed leaking from the bottom corners of the inspection plate. I pulled it off, put gasket seal on both sides, and reinstalled. I let the gasket sit for a day, and it did not leak on the next run. However, it has started leaking again from the front lower corner of the plate.
My engine has less than 1000 miles on it since being rebuilt (and the pump replaced) and it started leaking about 500 miles after the rebuild. Is the IP getting too much oil pressure? The leak is big enough that you can see the flow of oil dripping off the IP.
The car runs great, and the leaked oil does not smell like gas.
Thanks. ???
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I think I noticed early on you said the cover plate was leaking. It really shouldn't. take a look at the picture: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Fuel/Injection
The pumps have an oil input under pressure, but no visible outlet. The outlet is at the gear drive flange of the pump. There is a spillway hole where the oil overflows the spill way and flows into the chain gallery and down into the sump. That hole has to be open. The hole is shown clearly in a pic. If the gasket is rotated, the hole would be blocked.
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Thanks for the link. I agree it should not leak.
My understanding is the drain hole is inside the gasket area, and since the pictures shows it on the gear, it probably is. Seems unlikely that it would get clogged up, but possible.
Any way to check that without pulling the pump?
Thanks.
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True the gasket is outside, I was thinking of a gasket behind the flange with the 4 pan heads. There should be no pressure inside if that hole is clear.
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If the FI Injection pump is still installed on the car....how do you get solvent or access to manipulate the rack.
I have removed the 10MM bolt/cover....but can't see to spray solvent and not sure how to "manipulate" the rack.
Leaving PB Blaster sprayed into each nozzle on the FI pump, and tried to get solvent to the rack...but difficult. Will try to spin this in the AM and see if any fuel comes thru.
John
64 230
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I was not able to get my rack to move because all the injection pistons were stuck. Once I got the pistons freed up, the rack started moving on its own.
To get the pistons moving I had to soak and manually tap them down after rotating the engine a few times. Make sure you pull the fuel pump fuse.
C
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I just removed my IP and have it on my workbench.
Removed the fittings on top and sprayed in solvent. Can you "tap" the pistons down with the valve seals still in place? I am not quite certain how to make the fitting to pull them, and would rather leave alone.
Comments please.
In the meantime, I am going to use air pressure to make sure all the fuel lines are clear.
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I do not think you will be able to tap the pistons down with the check valves in place.
They are relatively easy to remove, however. I used a quick-disconnect air nipple that had the female threaded end. Screws right down on the check valve, then just pull it up with channel locks, pulling on the air nipple part.
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Thanks.... any idea of the actual size of the female threaded part? I don't think that I have anything handy. Have to go to the hardware store. I may drag the pump along with me.
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Sorry, no idea on the actual size. Seems like there was some discussion on the thread size earlier in this thread through.
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Hello,
There is a lot of information on the procedure to free the pump. Do some searching first. Read through this long thread. Also look up all the info you can find in the tech manual. Yes, the stuck pistons will jamb the rack. Free up the pistons and the rack will free up. just use a standard SAE brass fitting from your local hardware. You just need to grab a thread or two on the outside of the check valves to pull it out. The threads serve no other purpose. Once the check valves are out, soak the pistons with penetrant and alcohol. Turn the pump to see what pistons do not move. Free them up by tapping them down with something not too hard, like a golf tee flattened at the pointed end. Repeat until piston moves up and down n its own, as the pump is turned. Try to keep the outer cylinder from moving upward, as it is keyed to go down in one position only.
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JA17, as you were so knowledgeable through this IP thread, do you have any ideas why my IP is leaking around the inspection plate? There is very little surface area on the sides of the plate, but I was very careful in setting the gasket and used good sealant.
It seems to me it has to be pressure related, particularly since it does not leak at idle, only above 1000rpm. I was thinking it could be "blow-by" from one of the IP cylinders, but the engine runs great, the pump has less than 1k miles on since installation, and I do not smell any gas in the oil.
Any thoughts?
Thanks.
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That's an unusual problem. I assume that the plate is nice and flat. Leakage should not occur even if you are leaking fuel past the pistons. The 280SL pumps should have a drain on the front of the pump allowing oil to drain back into the engine block by gravity not pressure. You might want to temporarily remove the baro compensator and check to see if the oil level is way up (above half) if so the pump drain hole is plugged or blocked. What is your pump "R" number?
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Hello,
There is a lot of information on the procedure to free the pump. Do some searching first. Read through this long thread. Also look up all the info you can find in the tech manual. Yes, the stuck pistons will jamb the rack. Free up the pistons and the rack will free up. just use a standard SAE brass fitting from your local hardware. You just need to grab a thread or two on the outside of the check valves to pull it out. The threads serve no other purpose. Once the check valves are out, soak the pistons with penetrant and alcohol. Turn the pump to see what pistons do not move. Free them up by tapping them down with something not too hard, like a golf tee flattened at the pointed end. Repeat until piston moves up and down n its own, as the pump is turned. Try to keep the outer cylinder from moving upward, as it is keyed to go down in one position only.
SUCCESS ( I think).
FI Pump removed from the vehicle and followed the many "DIY how to's" on the forum. THANKS ALL - especially JA17.
All pistons and rack now move.
Question: I ALSO SEE THE ROTATIONAL MOVEMENT of the pistons within the cylinders when I manipulate the rack back and forth.
ANYTHING ELSE TO CHECK BEFORE RE-INSTALLATION?? (THIS WILL BE THE SECOND INSTALLATION, SO I WANT TO BE 100% SURE THAT THE FI PUMP SHOULD BE OPERATIONAL).