Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: Shvegel on September 29, 2014, 01:52:36
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Checking out my tool kit and I just realized that one of the 4 open end wrenches does not match the manufacturer of the other three. My question is are they supposed to all match or were they a mix and match deal?
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Good question, I just checked the tool kit in my 280 SL, which is the original to the car (as best as I can determine) and the four wrenches are all Dowidat. In the tool kit for the 250 SL which was a rebuilt car, the wrenches are from Dowidat, Heyco and Matador! I would suspect (heavy emphasis on suspect) that at any given time the wrenches would match. I would not stress too much on this. If it does bother you, it would be quite easy to find the same brand on ebay. These are very common and not at all expensive.
The only thing to really watch for is that they are stamped with "Mercedes Benz" on the opposite side of the wrench. These manufacturers were common for the German brands. I have been looking for a set of the large adjustable pliers to complete a spare tool kit. I saw a pair for $95 and decided to pass. I did a search of the manufacturer and found a set (several actually) with BMW stamped and those were less than half the price…..?! Tool bubble??
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I took a peak at my original tool kit and all four open ends are made by 'Dowidat", screwdriver set made by "Pelo Obgm", Adjustble pliers made by 'Heyco", spark plug wrench made by "Hazet", and the small pliers made by "Hapewe" and has no MB logo or name. Quite a mix of suppliers.
John
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Have you guys heard about the Technical Manual ?
See http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Accessories/Toolkit
Peter
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Johnny:
I got some spare pliers Hazet a long time a go same as Mercedes-Benz just no star very inexpensive.
The cream of the crop is the fuse pliers they made two different kinds I was lucky and got both. They are
in-practical to use compared to what you can buy at a good tool manufacture or hardware store. Sine my car
is never going to be a show car. I don't care.
Sincerely
Bob Geco
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Peter,
Touche, on the search. The manual is not clear if there would be a mix of wrenches in a single tool kit.
Bob,
I do have both types of the fuse pullers. I have actually found them to be quite functional, once a year, I use them to twist/rotate the fuses to ensure good contacts.
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Thanks for the replies. I had read the Technical Manual on toolkits but it wasn't clear.
Jonny B.
I think I bought the pliers you were looking at. I bought a sedan tool kit years ago for around $50 so the SL only pliers although expensive rounded out a complete kit.
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Believe me I completely understand about getting the "last piece". Having the full tool kit for $145 (if I did the math right) is a bargain and then some.
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Just went through this process "building " my own tool kit with a "new" mbtext cover. The wrenches are all ofer the map between the three manufacturers. The Heyco were early, and the matador and dowidat were later, it would appear. Somewhere at the end of the 230 production, the DIN spec changed, and the 14mm was changed to 13mm, so the old 14/17 became the 13/17. I haven't seen a Heyco 13/17 anywhere. If someone has a clear picture of what the wrench manufacturer's were by year, that would be fun to know. Were the wrenches matching in the original tool kits? I thin the Heyco's are better made than the matadors, but that is just my opinion.
Mike Mizesko
Columbus, OH
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There is another remark in the technical manual that puzzles me: As you open the wrap, the inside material is green with the embossed Mercedes Benz star to the right.
I have a tool bag from a 1964 230SL in red MB-tex and one from a 1966 230SL made from softtop canvas but both do not have the Star logo. Do only the later bags (250SL/280SL) have the logo??
The combination pliers in the two bags are from different manufacturers, WILL and HAPEWE; see photo.
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Jonny B.
I think I bought the pliers you were looking at. I bought a sedan tool kit years ago for around $50 so the SL only pliers although expensive rounded out a complete kit.
Actually Shvegel, if you mean the $95 pliers from Reply #1, I bought them. I know this because I had been in communication with Jonny B about them when I stole them out from under him. No, I am just kidding, of course. ;D He graciously stepped aside and allowed me to purchase them.
Of course, the seller might have a whole bunch of these unobtainium pliers that he just keeps putting up for sale as the last one sells.
By the way, that was my last piece to complete my toolkit. My car came with some of the tools, not all of them for some reason.
It sounds like mmizesko can beef up the Tech Manual on some tool topics.
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... The Heyco were early, and the matador and dowidat were later, it would appear. ...
... I haven't seen a Heyco 13/17 anywhere. ..
Hi Mike,
since you asked for a monkey wrench let me throw one in. ;D
Here is a photo of a Heyco 13/17 wrench: :o
Matador, Dowidat and Heyco are old tool manufacturers and all are located in Remscheid, Germany.
Matador was started in 1900 by Schumacher & Kissling and is still run by a 4th generation Kissling.
Dowidat was started in 1919 by the Dowidat brothers and now the company is called GeDoRe (Gebrueder Dowidat Remscheid); still family owned.
Heyco was started in 1937 by Ernst Heynen and is also still private.
Since these companies competed fiercely I don't think that Daimler bought only from one of them but all three and what we see in the tool bags reflects what was on hand.
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Alfred,
Thanks for bursting my hypothesis bubble. I find it interesting that guys on the line are just pulling miscellaneous manufacturer's wrenches out of a bin, and loading them into MBtex rolls. BTW, I have seen some MBtex bags with the snaps that did have the star on the green fabric, and some that have not. Seems so imprecise for a teutonic manufacturing process....
Mike
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Hi Mike,
since you asked for a monkey wrench let me throw one in. ;D
Matador, Dowidat and Heyco are old tool manufacturers and all are located in Remscheid, Germany.
Can I throw yet another monkey wrench in here? What about "Unior"? I have as extras (not in my kit in the car) a Unior 17/19, and 14/17. DIN 895. These two, along with those I have marked Matador, Dowidat and Heyco all have the exact same cast-in embossing on the reverse (or is it obverse?) side: the wrench dimension, a three point star logo, Mercedes-Benz, and the other wrench dimension as JonnyB noted in the first reply. Except for the brand name, they look forged from the same tooling!
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Hi Mike,
Now you've got me confused. I've got 2 matadors without the three point star. All the heycos have the star, and I also found a 13/17 mercedes Benz "Walter".
Oh, the inhumanity!
Mike
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... I find it interesting that guys on the line are just pulling miscellaneous manufacturer's wrenches out of a bin, and loading them into MBtex rolls. ....
Well, do we know this was the way they were added to a car? Perhaps the guy or gal on the line just added the complete bag but it was assembled somewhere els?
Today we would know for sure that Daimler does not make the bags, but back then? Who made the bags from canvas or MB-tex and to whom were they sold, Daimler or the tool manufacturer?? I don't think we'll ever find out. :(
Except for the brand name, they look forged from the same tooling!
Michael, what do you think the DIN standard cast on every piece means? They should be identical except for the brand names.
But there is no way that these three companies in Remscheid shared any tooling.
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Actually it is quite possible that the three tool companies shared tooling. Much like the Scotch distilleries on the isle of Isla who use the same supplier of Malted Barley(except of course Laphroig who still does some mostly for show.) I would assume that the three tool makers might use the same forging operation and only change the rear insert to suit the company who's name is on the order.
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Fine, the distilleries get their malted barley from one supplier and the tool makers may get their steel from one supplier.
But those three companies had their own forge hammers from the beginning (http://www.matador.de/index.php?id=historie&L=2; http://www.gedore-group.com/en/group/chronicle.html;) and in 1961 the handtools for Heyco were made at their plant in Bavaria (http://www.heyco.de/_EN/geschichte.html) far away from the other two.
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Hi,
My thoughts regarding the tool bags and where and how they were made, has always been that they took leftover materials at the upholstry
department and used them them to make the toolbags inbetween the interiors and softtops.
The original bags came in all kinds of colors from Tex and canvas.
A good way to reduce the waste of leftover materials from interior and softtop prouction.
Just a theory though.
Hans
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Like you Hans, I had heard that they used the left over material from where the rear window is in the soft top as the outside and thus the bag was always the same colour as the soft top.
Garry
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.../...I also found a 13/17 mercedes Benz "Walter"
Heh, interesting. I found three 13/17 wrenches in my box of "M-B in-car tools". All of them were "Walter"
Of the about 50 other fixed wrenches I had there, none were marked "Walter" /Hans in Sweden
.
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Michael, what do you think the DIN standard cast on every piece means? They should be identical except for the brand names.
I agree, sort of: I've seen DIN895 wrenches in satin chrome, phosphate finish, and black oxide. All VASTLY different in appearance. I believe that a DIN spec was material, performance, tolerance, finishe(s) (note the plural there) and related, which would mean that not every tool would be drop-dead identical in appearance, but in performance.
Of course DIN is "dead" replaced by international standards such as ISO and IEC for electrical standards. I have two different IEC 62196 standard plugs for my PEV electric cars. They both comply with that standard, and are very close in appearance. But nobody, surely nobody here would ever say that these two plugs were identical, nor made by the same manufacturer.
A quick check on the net and there are all manner of Indian and Chinese manufacturers of "DIN895" tools out there. I don't think they all are the "spitting image" of what we have in our trunks...
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I don't think it would be possible to have the cut out from the top be the tool bag in the car that top was mounted to. I am guessing there was a stack of material, both top canvas or MB Tex, it would get sent to the "tool bag" department would would sew up the tool bags, then it would get filled with the requisite tools and there would be a stack ready to get tossed into the car at the end of the assembly line (or wherever the "insert tool bag to trunk" station was on the line). But that is not based on any kind of inside knowledge, just thinking about how an assembly process would be put together.
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I don't think it would be possible to have the cut out from the top be the tool bag in the car that top was mounted to.
Maybe 49er or someone else with an absolutely provenance d original car can help.
Is the bag the same as the softtop material?
Gus
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I could be very wrong, but in all my hunting, I have yet to see one made of soft top material. I've seen either vinyl mbtex (with snaps) or thin red or green fabric (in a roll with string ties), not of the thickness of a softop.
This would be an awesome post for our friends at the pagodentreffen.de site. Rolf-Dieter or Alfred, do you have passwords there? I just registered, aber meine deutsch ist nur einfaches. If not, i can try to cobble up a translated question, to gain some clarity on this whole tool kit issue. I see vagueness on this site going back 12+ years. There may even be members on that site who used to work on the line, or their dads or uncles did.
Nicht so schlecht, eh?
Mike Mizesko
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Mike
the data card for my 1966 230SL shows code 727 = softtop color 132 light grey.
Unfortunately when I bought it from the first owner's family it that soft top had been changed to a blue and I tried for a long time to find the original canvas (http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=2515.0).
Fortunately the original bag (with a few missing tools) was there and appeared to be the correct 132 color and that helped me finding a very close replacement Sonnenland canvas (http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=15171.0).
Here are a few photos of this tool bag, unfortunately they were taken under different light conditions at different times so the colors look a bit different between them.
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Maybe 49er or someone else with an absolutely provenance d original car can help.
Is the bag the same as the softtop material?
Mine is MBTex cognac in color same as the car's interior.
John
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I bought my car from the original owner. The data card showed a Black soft top. The tool bag that came with the car is black canvas, just like the soft top material. The soft top on the car when I purchased it, was changed to blue. I don't have photos of my tool bag as I am away from the car.
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For my 280 SL, the top is 744, dark blue, the interior is red leather, and the tool kit bag is MB Tex parchment, and I believe the original one for the car.
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I am learning more every day.
So now we know that they made these kit bags out of canvas from the tops, left over MBtex, and thin red cloth, but no leather. Perhaps old Pfeffernusse wrappers? (ok, i don't know how to find an umlaut character on my keyboard).
I'm enjoying this thread. Perhaps we can do a survey to get a larger sample?
Mike
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So now we know that they made these kit bags out of canvas from the tops, left over MBtex, and thin red cloth, but no leather.
Mike,
I'm pretty sure the "thin red cloth" was never original on the W113 cars.
Also, up until Jonny B, we had a pretty good sample going there with 66andBlue, 49er, and kampala, we had all original tool pouches made from the interior TEX or softop canvas from that specific car, or at least the same material and color.
So, maybe it did happen with some frequency.
Mark
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Mark,
I believe what Jonny B had in mind was that you cannot have a bag made from canvas of a softtop on that same car only from the leftover material from any softtop made from the same cloth.
Mike,
now I am wondering about the bag that is in the red 1964 230SL that we looked at - which is filled with the correct old wooden screwdriver, long "300" slip joint pliers and correct combination pliers and fuse box. It is made from red MB-tex to match the red chassis but not the black interior. Another monkey wrench ???
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Alfred,
Yes, I agree with Jonny B's reply #22.
So, maybe the guy putting the tools in the trunk was instructed to match something when possible given we have 3 examples believed to be original (Yes, John, I know you know yours is original. ;D )?
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Yes, Alfred's comment about my meaning is correct, top material, but not from the same top as on the car.
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Correction. I found a tool bag made of black canvas with snaps. Still haven't found one of Ostrich leather though.
Mike
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I am learning more every day.
So now we know that they made these kit bags out of canvas from the tops, left over MBtex, and thin red cloth, but no leather. Perhaps old Pfeffernusse wrappers? (ok, i don't know how to find an umlaut character on my keyboard).
I'm enjoying this thread. Perhaps we can do a survey to get a larger sample?
Mike
Mike
if you do not have a German keyboard you can type the Umlaut pushing the "Alt" key and enter a number:
Ä = Alt + 0196
Ö = Alt + 0214
Ü = Alt + 0220
ä = Alt + 0228
ö = Alt + 0246
ü = Alt + 0252
a little cumbersome, however, good for short writings.
I have a German keyboard which I connect to my PC when I type longer messages in German.
Viel Glück, Urban
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Mike,
on my Apple Keyboard I simply use the following ...
Holding down the "Option" key and pressing u results in ü, or ä or ö or even ß keep it in mind should you ever switch to a Mac :)
Viel Glück
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I recently acquired 5 original tool bags with snaps. One Black canvas, One red vinyl, one parchment vinyl, one tobacco mbtex, and one dark gray mbtex. Only the parchment one has the tristar stamping on the green inside fabric (on the right). I will attempt to update the technical manual with pictures of the various kinds of bags this winter. I'll also spend that time finding the appropriate tools to fill them. If I put them away like a 1982 Paulliac, in about 10 years, they may be worth the $9500 someone is trying to get for a 300SL tool kit on ebay currently. First, I'll replace my cognac repro bag....
Mike Mizesko
Columbus, OH
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I am the outlier: my 250 "California Coupe" of course came without a soft top. The tool bag, which I am near certain is original to the car, is of black canvas with olive drab liner & pockets and snaps and no tri-star logo to be found.
rc
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Hi, I have some MBtex left over from re-covering the dash, I thought I would ask my wife to make me a repro tool kit after seeing some of the photos some have posted here. The one I bought with the car is an old brown canvas (not soft top material)
My wife says her sewing machine will handle thye MBtex. What sort of fabric or material is the green inner made from plse and what shade of green would you say it was?
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I think I have an original Mercedes roll. Would be interested to know if its correct for the early 230? Am picking I also have a few bits missing. Rodger, if its correct your always welcome to borrow it to get a good copy.
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You need to have a read of the Tech Manual where an explaination on when they changed from the early snap closed tool kits to the tied roll kits in later vehicles.
http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Accessories/Toolkit
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Cheers Gary, had a good read of that. Looks as if mine didn't originate from a 113 at all then. The tools all look correct and have mercedes all over them but the roll is incorrect.
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Andy,
I think the tied roll started with the W107 although there appeared to be lots of different materials used for the W113 from soft top type material through MBTex and from what I have read on the Forum they do not appear to be any particular type at any particulat time but maybe some others can clarify it a bit more and potentially correct up the Tech Manual if wrong.
Garry
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Ok so got bthe bit about the rolled kits being later sedans but wot about the inner material on the w113 kits?
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Andy,
I don't have it totally figured out yet, but looks like your Felo Screwdriver is late (pre-65 or so was wood in 230SL). Your sparkplug removal tool is late as well, either 70-71 or out of a 107, because it has the spring. The roll doesn't look like it came from a 113 at all, as the early 230's were soft-top canvas, and the later ones were mbtex vinyl, all with snaps. It could be out of a 190SL, as it looks old, or a sedan of the same era. Only the 300SL had vinyl and snaps in the late 50's early 60's. Not 100% on this, but a decent hypothesis.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-OEM-Mercedes-300SL-Gullwing-tool-kit-COMPLETE-UNRESTORED-W198-/221600724672?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item33986eb6c0&vxp=mtr
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercedes-300SL-Gullwing-300SL-Roadster-Fluglelturer-Original-amp-Complete-Tool-Kit-/271654651824?nma=true&si=U0GE0gqnvuzHRvf%252BYIBXKh8EHYY%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercedes-230-250-280sl-SL-Pagoda-CORRECT-ORIGINAL-COMPLETE-NEARMINT-TOOL-KIT/221607512774?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D26942%26meid%3D47796785932b47e3b0d79d2a26a09a60%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D11184%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D10%26sd%3D271654651824
The last pagoda kit is a mish mash as well. Wheel starter is the long narrow one from a 107. Has the correct fuses though.
Rutger, The green light canvas inside with pockets would be correct. I don't know the specifications.
Mike Mizesko
Columbus, OH
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Perhaps I am missing something. The last tool kit (in Mike's post) , the one that claims to be 230, 250 280 SL, appears to be pretty close. The tool alignment tool is the correct one for the Pagoda, not a tapered one?? The fuses should all be white. I won't venture too far on the 300 SL kit, but it does look reasonable. That question would best be posed to the Gullwing group.
Andy, I would concur with Mike that the tool rool you show is from a 190 SL, I acquired one of those a couple of years back, in my ongoing tool search, and it matches what you show pretty well. I am traveling and not able to post a photo. I think wood was correct for the 230 SL, the 250 SL and for early 280 SL (but not sure on the 280 SL, my kit, VIN 12730 has the plastic handle).
If you are really interested to see the differences, go to the 190 SL forum (forums.190SLGroup.com), and use "tool kit" with the quotes, the 12th post from that search is about tool kit roll pictures.
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This looks like a good one...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/201219573895?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
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As well it should be for the price being asked. Pretty easy to change/source the proper white fuses!
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Kevin, yes, I think this is a proper 280SL kit. No spring on the spark plug removal tool. I know the red and blue fuses were for the 107. You can buy the plastic fuse box with the "patriotic" fuse collection from the MB dealer for $7 each. Same slide top and MB logo. Not sure if every 280SL kit had the black fuse pullers or not. I found a Hazet 2760 oil drain plug wrench that I keep in my kit. I know it only came in the rare lubrication kit.
Jonny, I've had a problem finding the white fuses with the aluminum , I can only find the brass colored metal. And I need a supply of the half size fuses. What do they go to anyway?
Mike Mizesko
Columbus, OH
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I am not at home, so can't double check the stubby fuse, but it will be the big power draw.
The black fuse pullers were an optional item, they were not included as a part of the regular tool kit.
I also put one of the 14mm oil plug wrenches in my tool kit. But the drain plug on both the 250 SL and the 280 SL are "outies" with a 17 mm hex head. I think the early cars had the "innies" with the 14 mm allen head screw. The 14 mm plugs are used on the manual tranny and the differential.
Have not tried to source the white fuses, Authentic Classics has the white fuses, but it appears they have the gold metal links.
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Jonny,
Found the autherntic classics fuses. They are like Hens Teeth, so I bought a bunch to put together all these tool kits I am trying to put together.
I'm pretty sure my drain plug is an innie on my 70 280SL. Maybe a combo. I'll check with Joe.
Mike Mizesko
Columbus, OH
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I also put one of the 14mm oil plug wrenches in my tool kit. But the drain plug on both the 250 SL and the 280 SL are "outies" with a 17 mm hex head. I think the early cars had the "innies" with the 14 mm allen head screw. The 14 mm plugs are used on the manual tranny and the differential.
JB,
I would have to disagree!
Looking at the EPC, the outie is the earlier drain plug part # 137 997 12 30. It supersedes to 130 997 00 32, the innie.
Naj
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I stand chagr-"in"-ed!
Most interesting though - looked at the 130 engine part book (10180) it has the same part number as in the original 230 SL big part book (A) edition 136 997 12 30?? I do recall that the 107 I had (1980) had an "innie" I had purchased a 14 mm allen wrench to use when changing the oil on that beastie.
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FYI, for those looking for the long handled (300) pliers for their tool kits. I was hunting around tonight, and found that Authentic Classics has these for $30 plus shipping. I just ordered one. The phrase to use in the search is "slip joint" - Happy spending!
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Well, That's $70 I wish I had back.