Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: NorfolkJack on September 29, 2014, 13:32:14
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Hello everyone,
I have been offered a '67 250 California Coupe for £23,000. It's an original UK registered 5 gear manual shift. It looks pretty decent - by no means concourse, but runs nicely, has everything in the right place, not a mammoth mileage and no rust. And I like the idea of a California Coupe, too - weather here in the UK isn't that conducive to a convertible, and I have two small kids that might leap out anyway, though I could possibly get some rear belts fitted (does any one know how straight forward this would be?). And while I wouldn't want to convert it to have a stowable roof - which sounds complicated and expensive - if I came across a cabriolet roof, I could presumably fit it as a removable, occasional ragtop, swapping it for the hardtop when I think the weather might suit. Does anyone have experience with this?
Anyway, the main thing I wanted to ask is what you experts think of the deal, assuming I'm right about the condition? With many of the same model going for plenty more, and Pagoda prices going up all the time (even with the less fancied cc and 250s), to my uneducated eye it looks a good one, but some expert views would be very much appreciated.
Many thanks,
Jack.
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No rust is hard to believe on an original UK car. Many cars look good but have been repainted years ago over rust. The best would be for you to have the car inspected (especially floor pans, sills and chassis rails) by someone who knows these cars.
Original 5 speed on these cars is very rare. Make sure it is effectively a 5 speed as sometimes worn bushings can give the impression of a 5th speed when playing with the lever. If it's indeed a 5 speed, make sure it is a ZF from factory, not a later transplant with another transmission (not that it would be a bad thing, but value would be less than if an original ZF).
If the car is as you describe, rust free and with a factory 5 speed, then I think £23,000 is quite a good deal for a RHD on the UK market.
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I don't believe you will be able to use a cabriolet top on the Cal coupe. The structure is quite different.
As GGR points out, have someone that knows these cars (the underneath parts for sure) to have a look. The tin worm can hide in all kinds of places and these cars are of the 60 and early 70's and rust protection was not really in the lexicon.
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When I say no rust, I should probably say no structural rust. There is some surface deterioration to the inner wheel arches, but no corrosion to the body - so far as I can see. The guy offering it is the local specialist and would be the one to get to inspect it, I guess, but of course he is also selling it. He does guarantee the car's solidity however. Then again, what will that count for a year down the line? Then again again, for £23,000 can you expect a completely faultless car?
As for the gearbox, I am finding out if it is a factory fitted ZF or not, but it is certainly 5 gears.
The car has not been used too much over it's lifetime - it's under 50k miles - and very little over the last 20 years, though it has been serviced and MOTd every year and passed its last with no advisories. It has also had a colour change in both body and interior colour. Presumably this drop the value?
Any further advice much appreciated!
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If the change of color was done correctly (ie dash board repainted etc.) and if the colors are ones that were available when the car came out new, value may not be hurt too much.
You should have the car on a hoist and take pictures of the under carriage. Take several, from various angles. If you spot rusted areas, take detailed pictures. Take also pictures of the transmission.
Post the pictures here and people will tell you about the condition of the car.
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If it is as you describe, it would be a bargain. I think, though, you must assume two things:
1. There is going to be rust. As a rule of thumb there will be four times more that you can see. If you can see rust, it would seem highly likely that there is structural rust. I would ignore everything the seller tells you, albeit politely, unless you have a personal reason to trust him.
2. The car has almost certainly gone at least once around the clock. It would not be sensible to assume the car has driven little more than on average 1000 miles pa.
You can add a soft top to a CA coupe. It's been done before, but to do it well would not be cheap. There is a guy in the UK (south) who makes replacement frames and is doing a coupe now, or was.
If you buy a coupe, you should note that securing it when you park it will be impossible. Plus you can't really tour in the UK for a week unless you take the hard top. I never use my hard top, but use my soft top a lot. However, for a 5 speed getrag, you should think carefully before passing on it.
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However, for a 5 speed getrag, you should think carefully before passing on it.
5 speeds were ZF from factory. Some later non original conversions used the Getrag 265. Excellent transmission btw, nicer than the ZF.
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I have some pictures of the car here. Any views much appreciated. These are sales:
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As are these:
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And here are some more details:
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A few more:
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And a few more:
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As far as those pictures go, things look pretty okay to my uneducated eye. But these last two are the ones that slightly bother me.
I need to make a decision in the next day or two, and while I don't think I'll be able to arrange an inspection before then, I think I'll be able to negotiate taking it to an SL mechanic once I get it, and if things turn out to be unsatisfactory, return it to the vendor.
Any thoughts appreciated.
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Whereabouts in Norfolk are you??
A UK, RHD, 5 speed Cal Coupe 250 has to be as rare as hen's teeth if it's "matching numbers". Is it the preferred market option? No. Is it a rare car? Absolutely.
My car had no structural rust and has cost me north of £15k in remedial work . Would that car be worth north of £38k once done? I'd think so. If you put it back to "factory" it'd obviously cost you an arm and a leg with strip down (remedial work previously unseen) and rebuild), but with cars regularly advertised north of £75k now, you'd have to think (world going to hell in a handcart notwithstanding) you're likely to recover most of your costs regardless should you wish to sell asssuming the mechanics are in reasonable shape (eg you don't need an engine rebuild)
If you want to have it looked over relatively locally, Derrick Wells in Needham Market know the cars pretty well.
if you pass on the car, PM me. I may be interested... (can't believe I just typed that!)
Rear lap belts should be possible. Getting them made up is easy (Sue at FDTS can do that), the question is fitting points through the bulkhead into the boot. I have the sideways kinder seat and have one point through the trunk. You'd need three at last.
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Hi James,
I'm not far from Fakenham when in Norfolk, and am in London the rest of the time. You?
I'm trying to ascertain whether or not the car is matching numbers and if the gearbox is the ZF. The car itself is located up near Middlesborough - quite a step and I'm doing most of this over email. I'd need to go and take a thorough look at it of course, but want to get as good an idea of what I should be looking for before I do so.
The seller is a Mercedes mechanic who looked after it for the previous owner, dating back to the respray and retrim 20 years ago. That previous owner got the current seller to service and Mot the car annually, up until 2008. It was last taxed in 2009, SORN since - the guy moved abroad. He came back earlier this year, took it to the same guy to be recommissioned, serviced and MOT'd, but then he moved abroad again, and sold it to the mechanic.
I agree with you that if the numbers match and the gearbox is the original 5 shift, it sounds like a steal. That's what made me come on here and ask about it. Too good to be true? Or is it simply that the California Coupe remains less desirable? That would suit me fine - a 2+2 is what I'm after. And while it may not shoot up in value, hopefully it won't plummet either.
Good news about the seat belts - I'll look into it. And thanks, also, for the tips on local specialists.
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Middlesborough is not my neck of the weeds but there's a chap called Paul Jobling who's near Durham who may be able to look it over for you. I have his email address
Alternatively, Walter may be able to do it - http://www.classicmercedesbenz.co.uk/ - he's seen more rusty Mercs than most people!
I split time between Sth London and Fressingfield in north Suffolk!
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No, the North East's not my geographical area of expertise, either. I see from a quick search that Paul Jobling is a regional officer for the MB Club. Have you been in touch with him? Would an intro be worth it? Or should I just write direct and explain the situation? I think it would certainly be worth my while getting in touch - he may even know the seller. He was a member of the club for 28 years, apparently.
I spent part of my childhood near Wherstead!
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The car looks quite nice, and if it was refurbished 20 years ago, it held up quite well.
The trunk floor is superb. This is a known area for rust. If it's original, it's quite encouraging. If it was replaced, then you should expect some serious rust elsewhere on the chassis.
I don't know what is the issue with the back of the front right wheel well, but it doesn't match the condition of the trunk floor.
The seller is a mechanic and was a member of the MB club for a long time. He can't ignore the value of these cars on the UK market and the rarity of the factory 5 speed. There seem to be a slight mismatch between the described condition and equipment of the car and the asking price, given what it would be worth on the UK market.
I can't see well, but the engine bay seems to have been re-sprayed with some kind of undercoating. The side of the sills and trunk floor look really nice, indicating that they may have been replaced. So there was potentially a lot of work done on this car, including rust repairs. Nothing wrong with that, as long as it was done correctly. This is why you really need to have the car on a lift and have someone in the know inspect the floors, chassis rails etc. It is sometimes difficult to detect a poor patching job once covered by undercoating, but it may be possible to grasp some clues, like that front left wheel well for example.
Rust is really expensive to fix, so it will affect the value of the car.
Matching numbers is not as much of an issue on these MBs as it is on Jaguars for example. But if the engine was replaced, you have to make sure it was by the same one (displacement, compression ratio, camshaft etc.).
In terms of value, an original ZF 5 speed would be a big thing. And if it is, make sure the car came out of the factory with it. The data card will inform you on that. If the 5 speed option is there, it will be a real plus. If it is not there, then you will be sure the 5 speed is a later modification.
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You will be able to tell a ZF box from a Getrag from where reverse is. On a getrag is up to the left next to first. On a ZF its down next to fourth.
A Cal Coupe is surely next to useless in the UK? Dont mean to be harsh but value is what someone will pay for it... and I dont beleive there will ever be a market for a RHD cali coupe?! Maybe in australia?
Here in the UK you cant go out for more than an hour without a sunny day turning miserable..
I am very surprised they sold any at all in the UK.
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I think you're right, GGR - an expert inspection is definitely required.
I see your point, jaymanek, and possibly in terms of value and so investment potential, for the money there are better models and marques out there. Maybe you have some ideas on that score? In terms of usability, though, if you think of the California Coupe more as a 2+2 FHC - with the rarely used option of being a no head - is it not a practical option for the UK, especially with small children? My understanding of these cars is that reliability is one of their strong suits, thus making them a good, though pricey, option when it comes to classics of the era. Having said that, I am a novice when it comes to these cars of course.
What do others think?
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Mercedes are among the most reliable cars of that era, when well sorted. Reliability and usability can even be improved easily with electronic ignition and a different rear end ratio, making it a nice and reliable car even for long distance trips in nowadays traffic. The 5 speed transmission may save you the rear end swap though. If you think of it as a FHC 2 + 2, it makes a lot of sense. It may depend on the use you are planning to have of it. On long distance, the hard top makes for a much more comfortable drive as noise is greatly reduced, especially at highway speed.
But then, what about a W111 Coupe? They are very elegant, offer same reliability, better comfort, and a sunroof is very nice on sunny days. Their value is starting to go up, so now would be the time to buy a nice one.
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The expert up close and personal inspection is really what you need to have done. Take a look at my recent thread (Get to test insurance) after my car was hit in the back (just a small tap actually) we uncovered some rather, how shall we say, "dodgy" repair work done even before the car was put back together in the late 90's.
I agree that the 111 coupes are just wonderful and elegant cars. Be aware, they are from the same area as the Pagoda, and rust can lurk in them quite easily too, and can be a real pain, read that as many (dollars, pounds, euros) to set right.
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There are many classic cars out there. I think if you want an investment you have to go for the more common cars generally..
One off's or different configurations (such as this one) can take a long time to sell in the event of you wanting to cash out of it.
A standard pagoda will sell easily and has a fairly trackable value as there are so many out there. They are a popular model.
I went for a LHD example on purpose, as if and when I ever sell, I have the whole world (pretty much) as a market. UK buyers arent that cash rich at this time and I dont see that changing in the coming years.
Also UK cars are all, or have all been rusty. There are very few original UK cars out there.
If you want to invest in a sure fire bet, my advice would be a R107 V8 model. They are getting so hard to find and they are most definitely the most collectible SL.
They will soon be over 30K for tatty examples for sure. Again hard to find decent ones, but they are out there.
Im not too familiar with other marques of classic car but I see Jag E types as a fairly solid investment. Again, buy the model that everyone wants and find one without rust.
This pagoda in question has had work for sure. Some of those shots have me itching my imaginary beard.. some of it looks a bit "tarted up for sale".. but you have to look at these things up close and personal.
Good Luck. Hope it works out
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I absolutely see your point, jaymanek, about the best type to buy being the most desirable, and purposely choosing LHD is good thinking, but the affordability of the California Coupe coupled to its practicality (for me) makes it hard to ignore.
Something like a 220 is tempting, for just the reasons GGR mentions, but I like the neatness of the SL for driving in London, though doing that does make leaving the roof off untenable, of course - for weather and security. That's a trade off I'd be happy to make, however, if it means I can shift my 6 years olds around in it and get into smaller parking spaces.
I just heard back from the seller, by the way, and the car is a matching numbers example with the ZF 5 shift gearbox from factory. The plot thickens...
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Why is the engine bay black - more checking necessary to make sure the fenders have not rusted through and been fixed up.
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If you really like the Pagoda design better and if the California Coupe is best suited to your needs, then you are just left with having the car on a hoist and inspected for rust and/or the quality of the repairs. Indeed, undercoating, including in the engine bay, is a nice way to mask shady repairs.
Given that the seller is an MB mechanic well known in the club, you could also check on his reputation, this will tell you if you can trust his description. What does he say about rust and or repairs? If he maintained the car for all these years, he must know it inside out. Can he send you pictures of the undercarriage? Also ask for a scan of the data card if he's got it.
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Leaving the roof on is not such a bad thing - many of us think these cars look prettiest with the Pagoda on display.....just saying.
I do take my roof off for the Aussie Spring and summer but if I lived in the UK - I think a permanent hardtop would be quite practical.
BTW - My 69 was imported from the UK. ....bought it on ebay without inspection (how crazy was that ???) - it was a good one - i got lucky....very lucky. Mind you the front wings were replaced and they didnt do a great job.
The trunk floor on this looks new to me as do the sills - it appears to have had some work..........most people cut corners on these cars when they did repairs which is a damn pity.
I bought my 2nd (project) car with known rust from photo's - and I can now vouch that the rust is 4 times worse than what was described (in words and via photo). Fortunately, I assumed it would be.
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I guess you're right, GGR - time to find an expert in the North East, and get on the MB Club forum.
Sounds like you had a lucky experience on eBay, RobSirg.
According to the seller the only major part that has ever required changing was the left side King pin. He also also replaced all the brake caliper seals and disc pads, and about 6 years ago he removed the cylinder head to replace the valve seals so the car could run on unleaded fuel.
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WARNING:
Never rely on a seller's description of a car unless you are ABSOLUTELY, 100% SURE, that he is not only trustworthy, but that he knows these cars we'll. Being a Mercedes mechanic does not guarantee you that he knows the first thing about Pagodas. Of all of the Mercedes mechanics I have employed over the years I never had one that had any experience at all on Pagodas, I have always had to train them myself and not all of them "get pagodas".
Now, this particular car does, on the face of it, look like a bargain. I'm not going to go in to the pros and cons of California Coupes but if it is what it is claimed it is then you should leave a refundable deposit without delay.
Once you have secured 1st call on the car you can have it INDEPENDENTLY inspected and the build data verified. If all is well then you will have yourself a bargain.
For what it's worth I agree with Jaymanek that the car has been tarted up for sale but only up close and personal will reveal the truth.
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Hear Hear Stick.
I would also not trust what the seller claims was original to the car or not. (he is often passing on what the previous owner told him - which is often wrong)
Before I purchased my project car I sourced the original data card myself and checked all the options (which varied from what the owner thought).
If you email : Paul.Heule@mbusa.com; on behalf of; 171-classicparts@mbusa.com
(I found him to be fantastic and he emailed me the card on the same day - you will need to send him the VIN number)
You can then post the data card here and the members will decode it for you and tell what options were factory original.
Best factual and free advice you might get :)
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You don't need to bother with the USA, all dealers can get you the data card,, it's just that some are unfamiliar with the process.
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That's what I read in the search previously - but when I rang the dealers in Aust., and explained what I was after - they thought I was smoking some funny stuff (Kangaroo droppings perhaps).
I rang MB Classic in Germany and they also said it (data card) would not be possible to source ........maybe got lost in translation I guess.
emailing the USA was easy and effective. (but you are correct - they should all be able to access the same data?)
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I've been in touch with the Regional Officer of the MB Club, and he vouches for the seller, in both character and Pagoda skill level - he did work on the Officer's own Pagoda, and did a very good job, apparently. The officer also gave me the contact details of a guy who can do the inspection. I've asked the seller for a scan or the data card or failing that the VIN number, and he assures me that no work but that which I relayed to you guys has been done on the car. I will keep you posted.
In the meantime, has anyone got any experience of actually using a Cal Coupe as a 2+2? Is it viable to put 6 year-old kids in the back?
Thanks.
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.../.. I rang MB Classic in Germany and they also said it (data card) would not be possible to source ........maybe got lost in translation I guess
Must be so. Mercedes archives in Stuttgart do have the data cards for all vehicles produced at their factories.
This used to be real "thin cardboard" cards - but at some point not so long ago, they decided to microfilm them, and subsequently destroy those originals. However, not so good IMHO... some of these microfilm printouts that one receives are next to unreadable >:(
Thus, the cars that do still have the original cardboard data card, back from time of delivery to the first owner, to go with the vehicle - become extra desirable
Note: in order to receive a printout of a Mercedes data card, one must provide proof of ownership of the vehicle. Mercedes do not just "send data cards out by simple request"
/Hans in Sweden
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Maybe my local dealer treats me as a special case but I just call them with the VIN and they email me the data card.
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I just got the VIN number from the seller - he didn't have a scan of the datacard. Stickandrudderman, do you just call your regular MB dealer or is it a 113 specialist dealer?
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Maybe my local dealer treats me as a special case but I just call them with the VIN and they email me the data card.
Ok, good for you Colin, he he :). Perhaps he then deletes the key codes (?)
/Hans in Sweden
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Regular dealer.
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NorfolkJack..
M-Benz of Poole supply classic parts and have got data card details in the past
http://www.mercedes-benzofpoole.co.uk/content/united-kingdom/retail-sandown/mercedes-benz-of-poole/en/desktop/passenger-cars/service-repair/mercedes-benz-classic-parts.html
Paul
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Ok, good for you Colin, he he :). Perhaps he then deletes the key codes (?)
/Hans in Sweden
Same experience as Colin. No proof of ownership required when I got a card via the classic centre in the US. They were very helpful.
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My local dealer got me the one for the Pagoda... There was no charge.. They had to email the factory to get it.. There was a bit of a delay as at first they couldnt find it.
(Originals kept in a large filing cabinet apparently!). I would hope that they have now scanned them as a backup!
Once we had data card I could order spare keys.
For my W100 600, they struggled to get me the data card and any spare keys.. My local dealer said they couldnt get data card.. I phoned classic centre, he also struggled but eventually got me data card at a fee - but couldnt get me a key, factory told him they were no longer supporting the special 600 keys, all they could provide was a blank that I would have to have cut locally. Well if anyone has seen an early 600 key, they are specially drilled keys, no locksmith I could find wanted to take it on. Also I didnt like the idea of a third party cutting my keys as they never get it spot on, this hastens barrell wear.
Knowing not to trust parts guys, I took my data card to a third dealer and he ordered the keys. Three days later I had two brand new keys in lovely period presentation boxes, correctly drilled and cut to my ignition.
As it turned out the last owners got in touch with me a few weeks later and sent me even more spare keys for the car!
Anyway, moral is, if one dealer says no, dont take that as gospel, keep trying others.
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The seller supplied the datacard and here it is. Any help decoding much appreciated!
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This page lists all the codes: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/DataCard/OptionCodes
It says 230 is for the 5 speed, and only comes with 232. I see both on the data card. It looks like your car came factory with a 5 speed. Let's see if other members interpret it the same way.
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Thanks GGR - both these are invaluable pages here:
http://www.sl113.org/wiki/DataCard/DataCards
http://www.sl113.org/wiki/DataCard/OptionCodes
Using them, I think the only thing I have failed to decode is the number 320 in the box marked 'wenig gewuenscht'. 230 232 seems to mean that the ZF 5 gear was indeed there from the factory, as you say GGR, and with the alternative rear axle ratio. But what could 320 denote?
As ever, any tips much appreciated!
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If you have the car checked by someone, have the vin appearing on the data card confirmed on the car's plate, but also stamped on the front right chassis rail. If the area has been sprayed with undercoating, it may involve some scraping with a screwdriver.
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The seller supplied the same same VIN number before sending off for the datacard, but I'm not sure from where on the car he got it. I'll certainly check as you suggest, GGR.
The options code page says 'there were about 850 Pagodas built with 5 speeds'. This one being a RHD 250 California Coupe presumably makes it even more uncommon - not more desirable necessarily, but as James said, rare.
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Google search says 320 may be a left side rear view mirror. You car doesn't seem to have any. It may have lost them when it was repainted. Still, have the vin number appearing on the data card cross-checked on the front left chassis rail (not only on the plate on the firewall).
If that's a true ZF 5 speed you should not waste too much time. Have the car checked and take your decision.
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Code 320 might also be this:
320 from 01.03.1967 to 31.07.1980 ADDITIONAL PLATE AND REAR SEAT BENCH STOP FOR GREAT BRITAIN
Follow link from tech manual to other codes sites.
You should block out the key Codes and repost!
Sounds like you may have a tremendous bargain if the car checks out ---
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Oh, and when you're having the car checked, even if the VIN checks out, make sure you indeed have a ZF 5 speed in there (number on the data card in "Getriebe"). A member here is the owner of a car that came out of factory with a ZF 5 speed. When he bought it though, the car had been retro-fitted with the usual 4 speed. He re-equipped it with a non original Getrag 5 speed out of a BMW until he could source an original ZF 5 speed transmission. These cars are over 40 years old, anything could have happened during their life.
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Thanks for your tips, and thanks Kampala for advising to repost with the key codes blocked out, which I've done - I think!
I will arrange an inspection and let you know how things go.
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It looks like it was delivered as Papyrus White with a dark blue interior. Nice colours
It looks from your photos like it's DB906 now (light blue metallic) many of which were specced with the dark blue (I tihnk Jaymaneks is that combination)
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Yes, and the hard top and hubcaps would have been dark blue. But look at the dashboard color, it is some kind of darker metallic blue or grey, instead of white. Usually, when there is a difference in color between the dash and the exterior, the one of the dash is a give away for the original color of the car, which would be papyrus white? That would indicate the car went through several color changes, at least one including the dash? Hum... I would really have that vin on the front right chassis rail inspected closely.
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Ok, now I am impatient for an update...
And if jack passed, why and can I have the sellers details ;)
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Apologies for the radio silence. Both I and seller went to ground briefly - for different reasons - but I will update when I have news, and will certainly pass on details if I pass.
Cheers,
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So: that car came and went. The seller put it up for auction elsewhere. He got a take home of around £21.5k.
So I have been back on the hunt, and found this:
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It was on eBay not too long ago, but didn't make its reserve. It has been imported from the US, has full history, matching numbers, original data card and has been owned by one family since new, covering just shy of 150K miles. It's a 250, 4 speed manual CC with original 114 MB Tex interior, but a change of colour - it was 050 white out of the factory.
It's been a while since I added to this thread, so just to recap: I am interested in a CC - I have two small children, and live in the UK, where it rains quite a lot (though bizarrely it is supposedly home to the highest per capita convertible ownership in Europe), so I would use it more as a 2+2, with the option to remove the roof when I move to the South of France (I wish), or retro fit a soft top (see pic, from the options page of this site). I wouldn't want to go the whole hog and lose the back seat and fit a lid, but maybe have a second removable roof that is a soft top.
Anyway, with Pagoda prices seemingly going through the roof, I don't want to be priced out of the market by waiting a number of years, and since a CC seems to fit my needs, it looks a pretty decently priced way in, and presumably even their values will rise - though perhaps not as much - making it some kind of investment as well.
The seller of this one seems to specialise in pagodas and claims to know all those that go on sale here (apparently he checked the one I was previously looking at and said it needed plenty of welding). He tells me this one is a very solid driver that could easily be spruced up in future years.
Any suggestions of what might be a decent price for this car would be much appreciated - I'll post further pics in a minute. Also, where do people stand on the auto/manual debate?
Many thanks!
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Some more pics:
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And a few more:
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And another batch:
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And the last couple:
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I think 250Sl’s are under rated and thus usually less than a 280SL so an advantage for a buyer with knowledge.
IMHO a CC should be at least $10 and maybe $15k below the roadster as that is what it can cost to add a top successfully. However one of the photos shows a top attached where others do not. Is there one fitted already?
You have been looking at Pagodas now for a bit so should have a feel what is a good price and each country differs so I will not comment on fair price for UK.