Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: n/a on September 03, 2004, 08:49:14
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Anyone out there in MB land know what the physical difference is between a 63 & 64 230 SL is?
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http://113.mbz.org/chrono/
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quote:
Anyone out there in MB land know what the physical difference is between a 63 & 64 230 SL is
........none unless it is a very late '64 with the verticle, instead of horizontal, spare wheel well !
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor
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Thanks, nice site but not to much info.
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Not sure I understand the difference between horizontal & verticle wheel well. Is the later in the center or still on the side of the trunk? Pictures anyone?
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Swede it is very simple :D . If you open the trunk of the 230sl you will see two different spare tire locations. There is one that is the same as the 250 & 280sl. To the right of trunk in a horizontal position. The other location the spare is to the right of the trunk in an upright position (vertical). I do not have any pictures but will post if I could find. My choice would be a 66 - 67 model 8) .
1969 280sl 5 spd 1999 ML320 Gainesville,Fl.
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Vertical spare wheel:
Check trunk picture on this car.
http://www.mirbach.de/main.asp?main=auto_detail&ID=1197&nav=0&subnav=1
naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
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quote:
Originally posted by Idle Swede
Anyone out there in MB land know what the physical difference is between a 63 & 64 230 SL is?
Besides the change from vertical (left side) to horizontal (right side) of the spare tire, from 230 SL chassis #007205 (October/November 1964); there was another physical change: Wheel width was increased from 5.5 to 6.0 inches, from 230 SL #005498 (June/July 1964)...
Early '63 W113 also had a round horn ring in the steering wheel, which later was changed by a flat ring in order to better read the speedometer, but I don't know when it was changed.
Regards,
Albert de la Torre Chavalera
Barcelona (Catalunya/Spain)
Feb.'64 230 SL Euro 113042-10-002432
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These are good subjects and I hope this information and pictures will make it to our technical manual.
Bob Geco
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<<Early '63 W113 also had a round horn ring in the steering wheel, which later was changed by a flat ring in order to better read the speedometer, but I don't know when it was changed.
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Aug/'65
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quote:
Early '63 W113 also had a round horn ring in the steering wheel, which later was changed by a flat ring in order to better read the speedometer, but I don't know when it was changed.
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Aug/'65
My Feb'64 car has the flat piece and so has my friends '64 !!
Also the verticle spare is on the LEFT side of the trunk !
Does anyone know where Meredith gets the info in "Original SL" from.............some of it is quite wrong, in fact I recall Cees saying this back a few years ago !!
Anyone like to compile a list of mistakes !! :mrgreen:
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor
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Hello. The vertical spare is definitely on the left. My horn ring seems flat as well.
Another early feature was the straight firewall lip versus the later one that had a curve for heater access plug.
Mine also has something I have yet to see on anyone elses: a chrome strip that runs behind the topcase fabric. Anyone else have it? Sorry no picture at the moment.
James
63 230SL
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James, that chrome strip is only on the earliest SLs. Run a search on this site and you'll see some pix of others. A gorgeous detail reminiscent of a 111 cabriolet that was lost as they cheapened our cars.
Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220
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Yes James my car has the straight firewall lip with no grommet !
quote:
Mine also has something I have yet to see on anyone elses: a chrome strip that runs behind the topcase fabric. Anyone else have it? Sorry no picture at the moment.
.......can you explain this a bit more. Are you talking about the chrome trim on the soft top, that is pressed into the rear bow above the windscreen ? If so mine HAD that but when I replaced the fabric I didn't re-fit it and I think I've lost it. It IS a lovely feature no doubt about it !
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor
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My car had the chrome strip on the soft-top, but the PO removed it thinking it wasn't original and lost it. I find that my top latches better if this rear bow remains loose until after the top is latched and then the bow is pushed rear-ward to tighten the whole top. I don't think I could do this if the chrome strip were in place and I think the front latches would be harder to align.
James does your rear bow slump forward until you push it back or does the chrome strip mean it's always tight? I'd like to get a replacement, as it looks great, but wondered if it would mean a little more trouble latching the top.
Ricardo
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The chrome strip really looks great on these cars. It's too bad the bean counters got rid of this feature.
1969 280sl 5 spd 1999 ML320 Gainesville,Fl.
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quote:
I find that my top latches better if this rear bow remains loose until after the top is latched and then the bow is pushed rear-ward to tighten the whole top. I don't think I could do this if the chrome strip were in place and I think the front latches would be harder to align.
That rear bow shouldn't move at all, with or without the chrome pressed in. It should have the cloth glued around it like the others !
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor
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Ricardo, I believe the chrome bow is still available from MB.
Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220
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Ben & crowd,
Actually no that's not what I was referng to. Although I do have that strip as well. In my case, the chrome strip is screwed into the cloth covered bow. I don't think it moves.
Now, the chrome piece I was refering to is visible with top down. It runs just behind the leather or MB Tex pad on top of topcase.
James
63 230SL
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I have that chrome trim on my 230. I know because it was removed for repainting and not reinstalled yet[:(!]. There is also a chrome 'rosette' in between thru which the soft top pin goes to the latch.
Not sure if the 280 has it. Will check at weekend.
naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
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quote:
Although I do have that strip as well. In my case, the chrome strip is screwed into the cloth covered bow
The exterior chrome strip which is above the rear plastic screen is literally "nailed" through into the wooden bow. I managed to retrieve mine from the garage last night and had a good look at it. I was under the impression that I damaged it taking it off so I never bothered looking for it again when I replaced the canvas.
I reckon I'll put it back on now, but does anyone have any advice here. Should I just straighten out the nails and seek the original holes or move them slightly ? Also should I use anything between the chrome and canvas.....will it leak ?
quote:
Now, the chrome piece I was refering to is visible with top down. It runs just behind the leather or MB Tex pad on top of topcase
.......This is at the rearmost part of the soft top lid ?? I have never seen a 113 without this part, it comes all the way artound to the edges where it meets the chrome end pieces right ?
Does anyone else's '64 have the painted end pieces on the dash where the round chrome vents are? Most I see are chrome but I never found a reference for when they changed !
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor
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James,
Are we on the same hymn sheet here?
naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
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Well Naj, I am not really sure. I did manage a picture of the "top case" chrome strip ... not to be confused with any chrome on the soft-top itself... Here goes:
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) chrome.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/J.%20Huber/2004910143318_chrome.jpg)
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PS we are looking at the chrome immediately behind upholstered pad...
James
63 230SL
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And Ben, not to forget your question: my car has the painted vents ... I believe later cars went to all chrome.
This photo also reveals my dashwood which I would characterize as somewhere between light and dark...
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) dashwood.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/J.%20Huber/2004910144527_dashwood.jpg)
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James
63 230SL
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Hey James,
My early 250 does NOT have that chrome trim piece on the soft top cover.
Bob (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
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we used to own chassis # 1600 or 113042-10-001600, it had the painted vents on the dash, the chorme on the softtop and the chrome on the soft top compartment lid, this car was a 1964 model year. I have confirmed these specific details on many other early chassis, especially the paint on the dash vents, this seemed to occur up thru maybe chassis 4000 +/- but not much beyond there.
-Lewis
66 230 sl 113042-10-016238
67 saab sonett II #43 of 258
00 saab 9-3 viggen conv
02 saab 9-5 aero
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben
quote:
Early '63 W113 also had a round horn ring in the steering wheel, which later was changed by a flat ring in order to better read the speedometer, but I don't know when it was changed.
>>
Aug/'65
My Feb'64 car has the flat piece and so has my friends '64 !!
Also the verticle spare is on the LEFT side of the trunk !
Does anyone know where Meredith gets the info in "Original SL" from.............some of it is quite wrong, in fact I recall Cees saying this back a few years ago !!
Anyone like to compile a list of mistakes !! :mrgreen:
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor
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What are the most glaring errors in Meredith?
Does anyone know where Meredith gets the info in "Original SL" from.............some of it is quite wrong, in fact I recall Cees saying this back a few years ago !!
Anyone like to compile a list of mistakes !! :mrgreen:
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor
[/quote]
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Engelen lists about 214 changes for the 1964 model versus 1963 (MB 190SL - 280SL, vom Barock zur Pagode). Frank Mallory has translated this list, and added some pictures, in his The Mercedes Collector, Number 10, April 1995, out of print but I got my copy from Tom Sargeant.
Klaus
1969 280 SL
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quote:
Originally posted by jjas
What are the most glaring errors in Meredith?
../...Meredith's info in "Original SL"....some of it is quite wrong, in fact I recall Cees saying this back a few years ago !!
Anyone like to compile a list of mistakes !! :mrgreen:
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor
I have in fact made just such a list. I enclose it below. Note: This is only the W113 part of the book. In general, be wary of data and tables in Meredith's book. Look in Engelen's book or factory literature instead. /Hans
My "comments list" for the W113 part of book (Meredith got it wrong...):
p.69: Soft top lid detachable
p.69: Bonnet and boot lids…should be painted body colour on their undersides
p.70: Body No same as last part of chassis No
p.72: Front bumper "a single blade"
p.73: Wiper blades painted silver after Aug -67..
p 79: Release knob of the parking brake is ivory coloured
p.85: Cam shaft 09 standard on US W113’s
p.85 (illustration): Oil/water cooler "device below fuel inj. pump" described to be for cold starting
p.86: Oil/water cooler optional for 250SL
p.88: Header tank (cooling system) made from steel
p.89 (illustration) auto gear box shown, labeled as manual
So, 11 "wrongs" here. Perhaps other listers are even more sharp-eyed
/Hans in Stockholm
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James & Idle,
There are many more little differences between 1963 and 1964 230 SLs.
But basically there are no clear model years '63, '64 or so. Most changes were done consecutively when Daimler-Benz thought it was necessary to change something. All little changes are definitely a question of "up to VIN xxxxxx" and "from VIN xxxxxy" and not of distinctive years. Many changes were (and still are) just done because of cost reduction reasons.
James is right: real 1963s had (= have to have) painted vents and the little chrome strip on top of the soft-top lid.
Some more details:
- design on chrome pattern on dashboard strips changed together with glovebox handle (change in VIN 000061)
- gas tank and orientation of fuel delivery pump (from lying to upright) changed (000203)
- different armrests on doorpanels (change in 000914/915)
- chrome strip on soft-top lid omitted (around 001500)
- left and right seat cushions changed from identical to left-hand and right-hand cushions (around 002000)
- horn ring from round to flat (don't know exactly when that was, around 002000 or so)
- rubber stopper in fire wall above heater valve introduced (around 003000)
- change of 5.5J x 14H rims (113 400 00 06) to 6J x 14H rims (113 400 01 06) (around 005495 or so)
- chrome strip on softtop omitted (around 006800 or so) which means that softtop 113 770 01 02 was replaced by 113 770 04 02.
- upright spare wheel (+ well) omitted, spare wheel flat in trunk (007205 on)
... and many more little odd things...
It's basically all enlisted in the "Engelen"
:oops:
Best,
Achim
(Magdeburg, Germany)
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quote:
chrome strip on soft-top lid omitted (around 001500)
.......my car is chasis # 02068 and it HAS this strip !
quote:
left and right seat cushions changed from identical to left-hand and right-hand cushions (around 002000)
- horn ring from round to flat (don't know exactly when that was, around 002000 or so)
.....again I have the flat horn ring but I dont see anything different between either seat !!
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor
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Reading from Frank Mallory's "Mercedes Collector" mentioned below, the flattened horn ring was introduced on Feb.3, 1964 with serial no. 2035, 2038 et seq. (i.e. 2036 and 2037 used up old steering wheels).
With serial no. 2175 on Feb.7, 1964 "the fabric bow and fabric deflector wires and wire fastening on the soft top are changed". The accompanying picture still shows the chrome strip on the outside of the soft top.
With serial no. 7641 on Nov.19, 1964 "soft top frame, top and rear window changed. The top frame received steel bows". The accompanying picture shows that the chrome strip was deleted.
Klaus
1969 280 SL
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Wow my data card shows Feb. 12th 1964 so I just managed to get a flat horn ring !! :)
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor
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Hello. This discussion of horn rings has me concerned. Okay, well not really concerned, more like perplexed...
As many of you know, I have an early 1963 230SL that has several of the earliest of features. However, the latest flat versus curve debate has me thinking my steering wheel is not original. Have a look and tell me you think. And, can anyone post a bona fide early horn for comparison? Thanks.
P.S. Excuse the 80's-looking wheel wrap. It's been on there since, well, the 80's!!
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) dash.JPG (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/J.%20Huber/200492716531_dash.JPG)
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James
63 230SL
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Guys whilstv recently searching for info on the dash vents I came across this topic and realised I had made a mistake when I said i had the chrome trim strip on the soft top lid. James' car has a total of three strips, one at the rearmost edge, and one either side of the insert.
Its the middle strip, the one at the rearmost edge of the insert that was deleted and i dont have this either !
Just wanted to clear that up ! :oops:
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
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My 1963 230SL-gas has the full round horn ring, the dual line master cylinder(the later ones had three), the 5.5" rims, the smooth chrome shifter gate cover(automatic)(later ones had small ribs in it), the third row of chrome on the softtop cover. The chassis is #1246.
Walter Klatt
1967 220SL-diesel
1963 230SL-gas
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My '64 is equipped just the same as Walter's '63 (except mine is manual). I don't have the chassis number with me, but I recall the number is in the low double digits, making it a very early '64, accounting for the round horn ring.
Best,
g
'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon