Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: mdsalemi on September 10, 2004, 21:40:12
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Hello All,
The more research and reading I did on the history of the 113, the more convinced I was that we've got the handling "thing" all wrong...this can be summed up in one quote from Laurence Meredith in his book, "Essential Mercedes SL":
The role played by the newly invented Halbgurtel (half-belted) Continental RA60 radial tires cannot be over-emphasized. These tires had specially constructed sidewalls to ensure that they remained 'stiff' and as near to the vertical plane as possible under hard cornering. Early Michelin X radials had proved to be far too flexible when fitted to high performance sports cars like the 300SL, and tended to distort circumferentially during hard acceleration and deceleration, in much the same way as the enormous tires fitted to the back of drag racing machines. Because the cords used in the construction of the Continental RA60s were wound at an angle below the outer tread, they were not true radials in the modern sense but they certainly made for an acceptable compromise in considerations such as ride comfort and roadhandling. (N.B. The Conti RA60 and Firestone Phoenix were very similar tires and OEM on the 113's)
This is not to say, of course, that we can't improve upon the handling by changing things such as sway bars, bushings, springs, etc. but rather until you have renewed all of these items, AND gone back to the original tires, can we truly understand what the starting point, as it were, of the car's handling should be. Since my car had the suspension completely renewed during restoration, I could not attribute any of my complaints about handling to the suspension elements; so with this in mind I swapped my Pirelli P400's (in the 205/70-14 size) for a set of Coker's reproduction of the Phoenix which is a true 185HR14. W O W, what a difference! The Pirelli's made the car feel disconnected: the body being one part, and the tires/chassis being another. When I made short steering changes, such as a lane change, it felt like part of the car went and changed lanes, and part of the car was lagging behind. A real, "loosey-goosey" disconnected feel that even our friend Dr. Benz Dan Caron noticed but couldn't put his finger on when he had my car for service in July.
The new "Phoenix" tires behave I believe, much like the quote above would indicate, and probably quite true to the original intent of the suspension engineers and of course Rudi Uhlenhaut. They make the car feel connected again.
So, I can highly recommend these tires, with only 2 days of driving on them, only because they made such an astounding difference in the feel of the car.
I'm certainly not suggesting that these are the ONLY acceptable tires for the 113, but I would guess we should have tires with stiff sidewalls. Aside from these Phoenix, I couldn't even hazard a guess as to how we can tell the stiffness of the sidewalls. I don't think it is something that is quantified. Are there other tires out there with stiffer sidewalls? I'm sure there are...but how to tell? The Pirelli's certainly are not: even the technician operating the Hunter tire mounting machine at Motorwerks in West Bloomfield noticed immediately how much stiffer the sidewalls were on the Phoenix then on the Pirelli--just from the feel of them on the mounting machine.
Nirvana does not come cheap: Pirellis, and Michelins in our sizes are all $50 to $100 per tire depending on model and size. The Phoenix run $170 each. But now I feel I am at a point where I can sensibly evaluate any further changes to the handling and suspension.
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
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Mike there was some pretty heated discussion on these tires late August with a not so great rating. Now you have a completely different outlook on the Coker tire. Do your tires have the rub strip like the originals? Do you find them to be noisier than your 205/70/14 tires?
1969 280sl 5 spd 1999 ML320 Gainesville,Fl.
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When I changed my tires from Michelin whitewalls to the very same Pirelli P400's Mike just took off his car, I had the same experience: what an improvement! And now it turns out I might be able to improve even further. It goes to show that tires do have a significant impact. One question though - could it be that even within the same tire make/model there are material quality/specification differences?
Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
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Cees , Mike has the "New" style tire from Coker. Is it possible that this tire is so much better than the "old style" tires that Tom found to be substandard?
1969 280sl 5 spd 1999 ML320 Gainesville,Fl.
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I have often wondered about the tradesman tyres offered in the original size 185 14 by some companies.
They have a lower speed rating than the HR tyres (who needs a tyre rated at 210Kmph?) but do their sidewalls have the correct construction?
What do they feel like to drive on?
Bob (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
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Gents,
I had a long discussion with Coker about these tires...while I can't say for sure how they are manufactured (other then what is noted on the sidewall) I can tell you that the new and old style come from the same mold. After introducing them (they sell a lot into Germany they tell me) they were asked to incorporate the "rub strip" and they just modified the mold. My tires do indeed have a very pronounced rub strip. Pictures will be forthcoming once I get the whitewalls white.
Agreed most of us do not need H rated tires, but that's simply a characteristic and not a reason why I bought them...the fastest I do is about 80 mph, and they feel great.
I have not noticed any more noise, but keep in mind 95% of my driving is with the top down, so the wind noise supersedes all else.
I don't believe that any manufacturer would have specification differences in the tires, but most certainly there are quality differences. The tires were balanced on a Hunter GSP 9700 Road Force Balancing machine and every tire and wheel were different. One tire even had a high spot that was just a little out of the machine's spec, and the way to correct this was for the machine to match the tire's high spot with the wheel's low spot--and this brought things into spec. You can't have this done at Sears!
Obviously I can't speak for everyone's experience with these tires, but I do know that everything, completely in my suspension was renewed during the restoration with original parts. So I have all original new rubber bushings, rebuilt kingpins, new springs, pads, etc. "the whole nine yards" as it were. The only things that were not changed were stampings and castings--which were refinished. So, my undercarriage is as close to "as delivered" as you can get--plus the 2,000 miles I've driven. So, what I think I have now is a car that drives as close as possible to one delivered in 1969.
My contention is that our cars, with "as delivered" suspensions, will handle better with tires that have stiff sidewalls--as planned for by MB way back when. As I mentioned, there are probably tires with stiff sidewalls, but how do you find them?
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
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Hauser - I suppose it is possible that the new Coker tires are in fact different. I suppose they would be the one to ask.
What we really need is to do our own comprehensive test, taking one car and then putting different sets of tires on that same car - each time testing them in the same way to arrive at a 'verdict' and ranking. This will eliminate the particularities of different cars' suspension condition + components etc. Actually this could be arranged next time enough Pagodas gather for, say, a tech session!
Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
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You should see how well my 280sl drives and handles, with late model MB wheels from a 320SLK (16x7)and 205/55/16 tires, the progressive rate springs,front and rear sway bars + a set of Koni's and the vented brakes from a 280SE. It's like the difference between an ox cart and a slot car. 8)
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Well, Norton, with all those modifications to your car, it sure as heck better drive pretty darn well. However this is what one would call highly modified and does not suit my needs with my 113 as I am trying to maintain it close to original. However, I would hardly call an original 113 anything like an oxcart. That moniker is probably best reserved for British cars of the period which had suspensions much like oxcarts of the middle ages...but even our beloved Mercedes had a bit of engineering involved!
quote:
Originally posted by norton
You should see how well my 280sl drives and handles, with late model MB wheels from a 320SLK (16x7)and 205/55/16 tires, the progressive rate springs,front and rear sway bars + a set of Koni's and the vented brakes from a 280SE. It's like the difference between an ox cart and a slot car. 8)
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
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Did I understand you correctly that you were able to source WSW tyres WITH rub strips from Coker? Any chance of posting a picture soon?
Second, the higher the speed rating, the more likely that the tyre will have a stiffer side wall, as directional stability is even more critical at higher speeds. I have a mid 80's Jaguar XJ6, which specifies a 215/75HR15 Pirelli P6 at about $210 per cover, if you can find them! I put a set of plain old 215/75r14 tyres on it a couple of years ago and it handled like a pig! I found a slightly less expensive HR rated alternative to the now obsolete P6s. The sidewalls were noticeably stiffer and now that 4600 lb. sedan handles like a sports car again.
quote:
Originally posted by mdsalemi
Gents,
I had a long discussion with Coker about these tires...while I can't say for sure how they are manufactured (other then what is noted on the sidewall) I can tell you that the new and old style come from the same mold. After introducing them (they sell a lot into Germany they tell me) they were asked to incorporate the "rub strip" and they just modified the mold. My tires do indeed have a very pronounced rub strip. Pictures will be forthcoming once I get the whitewalls white.
Agreed most of us do not need H rated tires, but that's simply a characteristic and not a reason why I bought them...the fastest I do is about 80 mph, and they feel great.
I have not noticed any more noise, but keep in mind 95% of my driving is with the top down, so the wind noise supersedes all else.
- Mike Hughes -ô¿ô-
1966 230SL Auto P/S
Havanna Brown (408)
Light Beige (181)
Cream M-B Tex (121)
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Hello All,
I seem to have troubles posting photos, but I'll try again. A "stock" photo of the tire in question can be found on the Coker Website, but I have nice before (Pirelli) and after (Phoenix) photos, as well as some close ups of the Phoenix that I'd be happy to share if I can get them to upload. I think the issue is I have to one by one disable all the firewall and spam and popup filtering (I've got a ton of these precautions in place and STILL get crap; scams from Nigeria and people trying so sell bootleg software and Viagra!)
There seemed to be an issue with understanding what the rub strip is; my car came with one original Firestone Phoenix (in bad condition and since disposed of)so I have a good memory of what it is supposed to be, and I am pleased with the Coker, very much so. Not only in handling but in appearance as well. Now there are those that think WW tires are horrible--just as they think US headlights are awful, and bumper guards as well. Now we have people disputing the color of the wheel wells. But the Coker WW are darn near perfect for an accurate, historical look--and drive as well.
I'll try and get the photos up later today.
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
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For a view of an original tire to compare to what is available today, here are photos of a tire with the curb rim and some original color markings...the tire has never been used. The tire was on display last year at the Pagoda gathering at Tom Sargeant's VA home.
Outside Tom's garage was a display of original tires with the curb-protector-rim...the hand points to the curb rim...
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A never used spare with the original color stripes on its tread...
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Richard M
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When I was searching for a 280sl about 2 1/2 years ago I found a nice one out in California. The owner had performed quite a bit of restoration work, new paint, interior and so on. One thing that stood out about the car was its stance. The car looked "beefy". As the seller dscussed all the work which was completed he mentioned the tires. He said they were the same as used on a Ferrari and said the cost was somethin around the $300.00 range for each! I have searched Coker tire for such a tire and came up with a 205R14. Could this possibly fit?
1969 280sl 5 spd 1999 ML320 Gainesville,Fl.
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quote:
Originally posted by mdsalemi
I seem to have troubles posting photos, but I'll try again.
Michael,
You could always e-mail your photos to another member and let them post them. They need to be under 80 kb in size and the path to them on your PC must be under 150 characters.
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
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quote:
Originally posted by hauser
I have searched Coker tire for such a tire and came up with a 205R14. Could this possibly fit?
Many people use a 205/70r14. I don't know the side wall ratio on a 205r14. If it's the same ratio (about 80?) as our original 185r14, then it would be a much taller tire. If you're going wider, you need a shorter side wall ratio. I personally have 195/75r14.
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
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Group:
After reading Michael's glowing endorsement for this tire, I struggle to explain why he is so pleased with the relative performance while I was so disappointed. I can only imagine that I switched from a Michelin Symetry ($80+ per tire) to a Coker tire sold as the original Phoenix but with no rub strip.
Michael switched from a Michelin P-400 tire ($50) tire to the Coker tire.
My experience is that the Coker tires road poorly compared to the Michelin and had more road noise. I can tell the road noise difference because I have a wind screen that cuts the road noise substantially. Without a wind screen, maybe you would not notice.
So the possible explanations to reconcile two dramatically different views of these tires are as follows:
1. My tires were defective (this has already been established-no rub strip);
2. In adding the rub strip, other changes were made to improve the tire. Maybe the extra rubber from the rub stripe adds structural benefits alone;
3. The $50 tire rode so bad it made the Coker look good; remember I am comparing a premium ($80) Michelin tire to the Coker. Michael is comparing a $50 economy tire to the Coker.
There is a Michelin tire that has the rub strip, but I don't think it comes in a white wall and it is more than the Coker-a lot more. However, it is a Michelin and you really know the rating you are getting. With the Coker-not sure what the rating is. However, I don't think any of us drive our cars so aggressively that the ratings really come into play.
So my tires were either defective and/or Michael and I are comparing apples to oranges. Probably both.
If you are interested in an original look, but less concerned about performance, the Coker tire is a good option. If you care about performance and have a premium tire now and are contemplating the Coker tire, you may be disappointed. Or you may be happy because maybe I just had a bad set of tires. Frequently the first run of any product produced is not as good as the next run.
Best,
Tom
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1971 280sl Tunis Beige Metallic (restored & enhanced)
1971 280sl Tobacco Brown (low mileage stock)
_____________________________________________
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interesting post, Michael.
I have been very happy with my Michelin rainforce 185 r 14 tires. But, having nothing to compare them to, your experience is worth noting. Perhaps I don't push my car as much as you.
Best regards,
Don
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Maybe next couple of times someone buys a new set of Cokers, they can list their experience here.
I think I posted before that when I changed from old Michelins (plenty thread left, but dried-out rubber) to Pirelli P-400 205's (not so cheap here in Holland, I believe I paid something like $100 per tire), I was very pleased with the results. But that was likely due to the poor performance of the bad Michelins. So this goes to show what Tom is pointing out: how you perceive a new tire depends a lot on what you are comparing it to.
Still think my idea of going through a comprehensive test at the next tech session or other suitable occasion is a good option!
Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
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Hello All,
Well here are two photos of the Coker's on my car. One of them is a detail of the infamous rub strip. The other is an overall picture of the right front tire. I did notice that the car looked a little different to me, perhaps a bit of an improvement, with the "original" 185's on it as opposed to the "more aggressive" looking Pirelli's in 205, however this appearance look didn't translate well to an 80K photo so they are not here.
I can't really explain the difference in handling other then in matches what was to be expected. Though the information is over 40 years old, conventional radial tires were examined and rejected by MB as having too flexible sidewalls; the RA60/Phoenix was the answer. Whether or not anyone can find modern production tires as opposed to reproduction tires with sidewalls as stiff is a matter of testing--I don't think the tire manufacturers publish such information, but perhaps an inquiry on a more advanced level to their technical departments would yield some results.
In reality, with all our cars in various states of repair/disrepair; restored/unrestored, original and altered, every vehicle will feel a bit different with every set of tires. Cees has it nailed 100%. In our next tech session, we should be doing some tire swapping and anybody willing to make the journey to wherever that might be is welcome to try my Coker's while I try yours.
One must also consider that any kind of change to the suspension has an effect on everything else. My car has been restored to "original" specs, with original parts, original rubber, original springs etc. This certainly does not yield the best handling car, but arguably as original as you can get. The original test reports of the car, which you can read in the Brooklands Gold Portfolio (thanks Doug!) do not give stellar raves about the car's handling. For example, brake diving which the progressive rate springs correct for, was as prevalent in 1964 as it is in 2004. Tom Sargeant's car has been in a state of flux with many changes to the suspension as he strives to improve it. I've had the good fortune to have driven his car and inarguably it feels considerably tighter and better then mine. If anyone doubts that all these suspension and tire issues don't all interact as a system, think Ford and Firestone.
It should be noted that while the Pirelli P400 205/70 are inexpensive at $51 each from Tire Rack, this is relative: there are only a couple of tires in this size that are more expensive (some Japanese brand I've never heard of and a Bridgestone)and a larger choice for somewhat less. I didn't buy the Pirelli's because of cost: at the time, armed with a considerably lesser knowledge then I have now, I "upsized" (bigger is better, right??) to the 205; and then searched for WW which is what my car came with when new. My first problem was when the spare wouldn't fit in the trunk; second problem was at "lock" the 205's had the ability to rub the inner fender well (and take off that body colored paint!! :D ) The Pirelli is noted as a touring tire. "Performance" tires are only a few in the 185-HR14 size or the 205/70 size. Add WW as a "requirement" and this drops to zero choice. There are companies that will put any size WW's on any tire but this gets VERY expensive.
I also don't "push" my car; it hasn't been on a track, and I don't drive it hard. It is a touring car and that is what I do. It NEVER leaves here with the top up, but sometimes comes back with it up if mother nature doesn't cooperate. About the most severe duty it gets is on the autobahns er highways around here where I usually end up doing 75-80mph and let traffic pass me by. A lane change at speed, or perhaps a quick burst to pass a truck is what I do. Those lane changes are where I really noticed the tire difference.
We can also note that the Michelin Symmetry does not have a great rating from Tire Rack's customers! Only 4.4/10 and most wouldn't buy it again. And, it is a bit more expensive then other tires in size and class; it isn't H rated. Michelin's sales information says it is a touring tire as well designed for luxury cars, family cars and minivans. Expense doesn't necessarily get you what you are looking for. The Pirelli P400, on the other hand, has a 6.8/10 and most would buy it again! On Tom's car the Michelins might just be the best combination. I can't say anything about road noise but Tom's car is a wonderful driving car, no question. There was no trace of this disconnected feel in Tom's car, so perhaps the Michelin Symmetry tires would do equally as well on mine...in fact Tom and I almost pulled off a swap until he discovered he already had a set of Pirelli's in his garage! ;) I'm not partial to Pirelli at all; my preference would have been German-made Continentals, and Michelin's second. I've had the best luck with Michelins over the years on my other cars.
As for quality, I had a long discussion with Jim Hildebrant of Coker about this tire. The Coker tire is made in a Michelin certified factory in Mexico. This means that this factory, which makes Michelin tires as well (maybe even the Symmetry; check the sidewalls for "Made in Mexico"), makes this tire for Coker. Coker also developed this tire (European members tell us what this means) in conjunction with Valentin Schaal of Munchner Oldtimer Reifen in Munich, Germany specifically for the classic Mercedes market.
Well, let's do some tire swapping at the next tech session! I'm as interested as anybody in finding out if other less costly tires will feel as good on my car as the expensive Cokers...and my wife would be as well! :)
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
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Before colker tire offered the Phoneix HR tires for our SLs I went out to fine an exceptable tire for my SL. I talked to many experts who referred me to the Michelin MX4 Rainforce 185R-14 all season tires. While they are not whitewall and do not have an H rating they are the correct size 185 R 14 and do offer good performance for dry and wet traction.
I was very delighted to hear Michael's report on the colker 185 HR 14 Phoneix radials he purchased for his car. Rather than loose sleep over a lost set of fitted luggage to my friend Tom back east, I think I will go out and buy my SL another set of sneakers to wear.
Bob Geco
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I have a question. As the speed rating of the tire increases so too does the side wall flex? When would this be evident below 100MPH between an H rated tire & an HR rated tire?
Bob Geco
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Just as an aside, it looks like the tread design of the new Coker reproductions of the Phoenix tires is remarkably similar to that of the 15 year old Michelin XW4 WSW 185R14 tires on my 230SL. I have been increasingly concerned about these, due to their age, and have been casting about for WSW replacements. The problem has been that WSW tires in this size have all but disappeared, and any new old stock that I have been offered have been on the shelf for a bit and have a wider white wall that is not acceptable for show. My XW4s are fairly quiet at highway speeds, but I can't really comment on their handling as I don't chuck the car around much in deference to their age. The XW4 was standard equipment on the big Lincoln Town Cars in the 80's and early 90's and were both durable and handled well, so it should probably be comforting to think that the Michelin plant down in Mexico is basing the Coker Phoenix lookalikes on what appears to be the XW4 carcas and molds (with the necessary cosmetic modifications to the outer side wall!). Looks like I may have pay a visit to the Coker website!
- Mike Hughes -ô¿ô-
1966 230SL Auto P/S
Havanna Brown (408)
Light Beige (181)
Cream M-B Tex (121)
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Just to repeat what I picked up before: tires age (dry out?) with time, not just with wear. Someone once mentioned tires over 5 years old typically will not be in the best of shape, regardless of the mileage on them. So if you drive your car very little, your tires may look new, but in fact may perform poorly and could be dangerous to drive with. One of my old tires, with more than half the thread still left, disintegrated on the highway, losing a big piece of surface on the highway one day. For this reason, I would never purchase "NOS" tires.
Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
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quote:
Originally posted by cees klumper
Just to repeat what I picked up before: tires age (dry out?) with time, not just with wear. Someone once mentioned tires over 5 years old typically will not be in the best of shape, regardless of the mileage on them. So if you drive your car very little, your tires may look new, but in fact may perform poorly and could be dangerous to drive with. One of my old tires, with more than half the thread still left, disintegrated on the highway, losing a big piece of surface on the highway one day. For this reason, I would never purchase "NOS" tires.
Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
...excellent point Cees, and one I've believed for some time. It is important to remember that TIRES are not the only thing made of rubber in the car. Most of the suspension is "bushed" with rubber; ditto for mounts of various kinds. When you've gone through the time and trouble of removing some of these items made of rubber during any kind of service/restoration/rebuilding, think twice about replacing old rubber. Do you really want 35 year old rubber replaced back into the car when it took you 6 hours to get the darn part out? Just something to think about...
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
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In Dubai, (I was told) all new tyres sold now have dates on them. Anyting over three years old will not pass the annual test for road worthiness. Of course they have VERY HOT summers and rubber deterioration is much accelerated.
I just cancelled my order for those expensive Michelins :)
naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
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Mike -- I have been looking long & hard for a new, and great, set of tires for my '71 signal red SL. I see it has been a few months since you last posted about your new set of Cokers. Are you still happy with that choice?
I went to the Coker website...is this the tire you're talking about?: http://www.coker.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=17493&cat=&page=1
Like you I've also just had all of the suspension replaced (haven't even driven the car yet though) and it would be great to now match the right tire with that fully restored suspension. Besides, I'd also like to return to the 3/4 inch white walls that came with the car originally.
Thanks in advance for your comments.
Tom in Boise
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Hello Tom,
Yes I still love the tires. I did some hard driving just 2 weeks ago and still love them. Find some earlier posts of mine, I think I took some pix of the tires back in August and posted them, so you can see how they look on a Signal Red 1969. Keep in mind that Tom Sargeant didn't like these tires. However my suspension has not been "modified", just rebuilt with all new parts. Tom has improved his with different bushings, progressive rate springs, and he just may have a different feel for what he likes. I drove his car, though and it is dandy.
Be careful however--if you have steel wheels. See my posts regarding the Hunter GSP9700 Road Force balancing machine. I'd make certain that all your wheels are 100%. My guess is you might find a few out of spec. I think I've got 4 good wheels now out of 7! That's critical.
The Coker website was down when I went to verify your link, but the tire is sold as their 185R14 Phoenix 3/4WW, and costs $167.00 each. One of the 4 I bought was out of spec; they exchanged it; paid for another balancing and refunded my shipping costs as well. Can't get any better then that.
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
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Thanks Mike -- Interesting that the Coker site is not responding now. After posting that link last night I checked it from here on the Forum page, and it worked ... so it may come back soon.
I've noticed mention of Tom Sargeant in this thread; sounds like an impressive guy. In a post dated Sept. 16th (below) I even saw some photos taken at his farm of original Continentals that came on some of these cars, including mine. My car came originally with Continental radials, 185HR14's, TT 714 tube-types, with 3/4 inch white walls (I still have one of the originals ... a used spare).
Have you, or anyone else out there, ever heard of these Continentals being redone (but hopefully now in tubeless), as are the Firestone's from Coker?
Thanks.
Tom in Boise
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i had a set of coker tyres put on my car before importing it,they have now been on just over a year,and my only complaint is that the white band on two of the tyres has gone a brownish colour as if the black of the tyre is bleeding through.it isnt down to road use as i have only covered 200 dry miles in the last year,i have read posts on stuff to put on to make them white again,but the point is should it have happend?,and as the car is now in spain theres not alot i can do.and as you know they are not cheap.
i will try to attatch a photo as my car is also signal red ,and you can get an idea how they will look{when new}.
anybody else had this problem?
andy.
spain.
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Hi Tom,
Yes, Tom Sargeant is an impresive guy, and not only because he has 3 113's in varying conditions and part of varying projects. Perhaps if you consider venturing to Joe Alexander's in July (another impressive guy) you'll meet him.
As for tires, Continental and Firestone (German Firestone was called Phoenix) I believe were second-sourced; meaning that DBAG did not want to rely on a sole supplier for the tires for this car (and any others that may have used it). Thus they were somewhat interchangable; some cars had one, some the other.
Coker is one of the few people that reproduce tires; they don't actually manufacture them, but they are made for them in Mexico and other places in Michelin certified factories. Want a white-rubber tire for that spoked wooded wheen for your 1909 Buick? Coker's got em. You get the idea.
The Coker only has the name Phoenix on it--not Coker, and not Firestone. I don't believe there would be any significant difference between that and a repro of the Conti RA60. There could not have been much of a difference between the two as they were somewhat interchangable on the car; and a reproduction would be unlikely to carry the Conti name.
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
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I can also say that I am still pleased with the Coker "Phoenix" tires. I've put a little over 500 miles on them and the car tracks and handles well. The only complaint I would register is that they "flat spot" fairly noticeably when parked for any time. It takes about 10 miles for them to work the "flat spots" out and then they are fine. I have not noticed the "browning" of the white walls but now will check them carefully for this.
- Mike Hughes -ô¿ô-
1966 230SL Auto P/S
Havanna Brown (408)
Light Beige (181)
Cream M-B Tex (121)
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I've read that products such as Armor-All will cause brownig/discoloration of the WW.
1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.
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hauser.
that product amor-all sounds like something that is put on to protect the tyre,or is it in the rubber?.whats strange is its only happend on two of the tyres.the spare is i think the original phoneix,and the band is perfectly white after 34 years.
thanks
andy
spain
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Guys -- This is all good info. Thanks much.
Andy, I sure hope you will be able to get those white walls cleaned up. My guess is that discoloration of those Cokers doesn't do much for the appearance of your fine machine (great color too!).
Mike, I noticed the link to Coker website is operating again this morning: http://www.coker.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=17493&cat=&page=1
For those who may be interested I took the closest measurements I could from the orignal tire that came with my 71 280SL, as well as the tires I'm currently running. Here's those comparitive dimensions (based on a carefully held tape measure):
ORIGINAL TIRE: Continental Radial TT 714, 185HR14, 185-355, Tube Type, DOT 166 (with 3/4 inch white wall stripe).
- Outer diameter: 25 1/4" (remaining tread: 1/4")
- Overall width: a) without rub strip: 7 5/8"; b) with rub strip: 7 15/16"
- Tread width: a) ground-touch tread: 5 7/8"; b) above ground notch: 6 9/16"
- Approx. age 34 yrs.
Note: This Continental tire appears to be the same as those in the photos from the Tom Sargeant event: http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/280sl71/20031027203458_Curb-Rim.jpg
CURRENT TIRES: Michelin MXV4, 205/70R14 95H
- Outer diameter: 24 9/16" (remaining tread: 3/16")
- Overall width: 8 3/8"
- Tread witdth (ground touch): 6 5/8"
- Approx. age: 10 yrs.
Mike I must say, the more I look at your signal-red 280SL (same as Andy's and mine) the more I like those 3/4 inch white walls on this car. BTW did you notice from Ed Cave's posting of his car's original window sticker that the white walls for a '71 280SL were a $90 option? (but the 4 upright bumper guards were $28, or $7 each; the chrome roof bars were $48 : http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/Ed%20Cave/2005110231240_71sticker.jpg )
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Gents,
One of my Coker's seems to have a little browning of the white wall. Without much thought I assumed it to be the result of one or more of the tire shine products I may have sprayed on. If you use those products, they tend to leach brown gunk off the tire and that is what is staining the WW.
Coker sells (of course) a WW cleaner which I should have bought but I didn't. I had a heck of a time getting this blue varnish off the WW that they put on to protect the WW during shippin. Even the detailer at the place that balanced the wheels for me couldn't get it off. In spring I'll buy some of it.
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
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Here's a great souce for info on keeping whitwalls their whitest. www.widewhitewalltires.com Once there just click on F.A.Q.s.
1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.
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Hauser -- Your link to Diamond Back Classic Radials was informative.
I am very impressed with the look of the 3/4" white walls on Mike's car...those Cokers look very nice in the photos he posted of his signal-red 280. It would be important that the stripes actually stay white.
Has anyone here tried a set of tires from Diamond Back?
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The Coker "Phoenix" does not have the same tread pattern as the original Firestone Phoenix. Sometime fairly early Mercedes switched to Continentals, the same as shown in the photos in this thread. My car had the Continentals with the ww when delivered. I never saw anything but the Continentals on a new SL when they were on dealer lots from 1967 through 1971. Therefore, I don't tnink the Phoenix is essential to the ride and handling.
I have tried several different tires in the 115,000 miles I driven my car. The Continentals had been replaced with a Michelin ww when I bought it - they were so-so. I replaced them with Semperits with a dog-bone pattern. Some of the older members may remember these - they used to be a favorite of the Porsche folks. They did not work on the SL - they chunked and I replaced them with Michelin XAS. That was the absolute best tire my SL has ever had on it. Superb grip, quiet in insanely hard cornering and a wonderful ride. Michelin replaced the XAS with the XVS. Not a good move for the SL. I ran two sets of these and they were inferior - much noiser and much harder riding. I finally gave up on the 185HR-14 because I could not find a good performance tire (the originals were a performance tire - not a long wear tire) and went to the Michelin MXV4 in a 205/70HR-14. This is the size that gives the same diameter as the original 185HR-14. They will scrape slightly if you are hard into a sharp turn under braking. They were very close to the XAS in performance. I had to replace them with Michelin MXV4 Energy's when I flat spotted the fronts when I was run off the road by a drunk passing a motor home on a country road. Not bad, but I think the normal MXV4 was better.
The problem I see now is that there is no decent performance tire in normal production in either the 185HR-14 or 205/70HR-14 size anymore. The only tire I consider an equivalent to what M-B originally intended for the car is the Coker Michelin XWX in the 205/70VR-14 size (at $380 apiece!). This is not a ww. The ww was always an option and most of the folks who bought their cars for their perfomance rather than their luxury characteristics did not get the ww. One caution, Jim Villers has had some serious problems with Coker Michelins.
Vince Canepa
1967 250SL
113.043-10-001543
568H Signal Red
116 Caviar MB-Tex
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I'm doing a complete resoration of a 65 230sl. Soon the car will be returning from the painter and we'll be installing the suspension. I need to decide what rubber to get. It's Black with Cognac interrior. The Coker Phoenix looks to be in white wall only. I always had black walls and never really considered WW. Anyone have any opinions/photos of WWs on a black 113? Do it once, do it right.
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom230sl
The Coker Phoenix looks to be in white wall only. I always had black walls and never really considered WW. Anyone have any opinions/photos of WWs on a black 113? Do it once, do it right.
Tom, at one time (if you didn't know this) some tires were only available in white wall. Some clever engineer figured out that if you put the WW facing in, you have a blackwall tire. Only good on symmetrical tires however...
But, there are plenty of fine tires available and most are in BW. You can save a bundle by just getting one of the tires that people seem to like. The Coker's are mainly suggested if you want WW.
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
-
Do the Coker tires have as pronounced a rub strip as the original Phoenix tires? I've never seen the originals, but it looks like the Michelin XVS tires that were on my car when I got it do have a larger rub strip:
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) XVSRubStrip.JPG (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/gugel/2005115162913_XVSRubStrip.JPG)
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I only had three of the Michelins and they were more than 10 years old, so for safety I replaced them with 205/70-TR14 Bridgestone Turanzas, which I'm happy with except that they have no rub strip at all. (I don't normally drive over 190 km/h anyway).
Chris Earnest
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I have not seen an original "Phoenix" for comparison, however I can say that the Coker reproductions do have a pronounced rub strip on the white wall side. I had my 230SL into the dealer last week for its 78K "D" service and the tech (who remembers working on this car many years ago) was very excited to see the rub strip on my new tires.
I'll try post a picture soon. (Just have to get a good shot that clearly shows the rub strip!)
- Mike Hughes -ô¿ô-
1966 230SL Auto P/S
Havanna Brown (408)
Light Beige (181)
Cream M-B Tex (121)
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Hughes
I have not seen an original "Phoenix" for comparison, however I can say that the Coker reproductions do have a pronounced rub strip on the white wall side. I had my 230SL into the dealer last week for its 78K "D" service and the tech (who remembers working on this car many years ago) was very excited to see the rub strip on my new tires.
I'll try post a picture soon. (Just have to get a good shot that clearly shows the rub strip!)
- Mike Hughes -ô¿ô-
1966 230SL Auto P/S
Havanna Brown (408)
Light Beige (181)
Cream M-B Tex (121)
This was posted once before:
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) RubStrip.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/mdsalemi/200511610733_RubStrip.jpg)
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It shows the Coker tire and rub strip as fitted to my car.
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
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i can send some pictures of an original firestone phoneix white wall complete with chalk lines,next to the coker white wall.buti cant seem to upload them.if anybody is interested contact me and i will mail them direct tomorrow, andyandlyn@terra.es
andy
spain
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Andy -- Thanks for e-mailing the photo of that original Firestone Phoenix tire. Good pics. When I first saw your tread pattern I thought the tire might have actually been a Continental because it looks so similar to the original tire I have. Upon closer examination though I saw the minor difference between your original Phoenix and my original Continental. But what's weird is the picture of the tire that comes up on the Coker website ( http://www.coker.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=17493&cat=&page=1 ) has an obviously different tread pattern from either of our original tires.
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Any updates on the tire discussion after the summer months of driving?
thanks
bjudd
1969 280 SL 5 sp
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I also purchased a set of the Coker tires this spring. After driving this summer, the biggest improvement was for cornering/handling. The ride was not that different(I replaced a set of original size tires that were well past their primg - sidewall cracks etc.). Since I have only used original size tires, I can't speak to any other points. But I have to admit I do like the look of the white walls and the rub strips.
Jonny B
1967 250SL Auto
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After reading this thread I had another look at my spare: It is marked:"Continental Super Record 6 PR Nylon - made in Germany- tubeless",has the raised rub strip and about a one inch wide white wall. There is no wear on the tire at all: It still has sort-of white paint bands on the running surface. I wonder if it came with the car originally or was installed later? The w/w is still white: Not brilliant white, but chalk white.
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Sounds like an original spare to me. Check your data card. It tells you which specific make of tire the car came with originally.
Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220
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Douglas:I looked at the data card, like you said: Option code 641
'69 280SL,Signal Red,007537,tired engineer, West-Seattle, WA
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Idea - should we start a table on the homepage http://www.sl113.org/data/ where we list all of the various available tire options with some info, like make, size(s), rub strip yes/no, (available in) whitewall yes/no, price point, countries available, other comments? This way the information that is in a thread like this becomes a bit more accessible?
Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
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Cees
I have set up a IE Favourites called 'CAR/WEB TOPICS'. I then add the web address Favourite there and this one is called 'Tire Nirvana!'
I have them for 'FUEL TANK TOUR', 'Cylinder Head Discussion' etc. the list is endless.
Maybe a LIST showing current TOPIC NAMES in alphabetical order, this would allow the information in the topic to be automatically updated as the discussion progresses where as a separate list would need to be 'maintained'.
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
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Resurrecting this fine thread...
My car has the original size Continentals on it and these are clearly not safe for use (although they have tread, they look dryrot). I am interested in getting a fine set of NON-whitewall tires. What size is most successful for people?? I do not want to recalibrate speedometer or suspension and want a good performing tire. Performance and safety/grip more important than an original tread.
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quote:
Originally posted by Chad
I am interested in getting a fine set of NON-whitewall tires. What size is most successful for people?? I do not want to recalibrate speedometer or suspension and want a good performing tire. Performance and safety/grip more important than an original tread.
Chad,
The typical sizes used are:
185H14 (original size format, with a 80 profile??)
185/80R14
195/75R14
205/70R14
With regards to the brand, it's all subjective and you will get many different opinions about performance, grip, wear, etc. Since you found this thread, I'm sure you've found other tire threads which reveal similar info.
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
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The list of acceptable sizes are most helpful for it. Thanks Rodd. The 185HR14 had me thrown there for a while.
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Hi all. I just made the leap into Pagoda ownership about two weeks ago. I didn't pay too much attention to the tires on the car other than knowing that they'd need replacing. When I went to pick up the car from the owner he mentioned that one of the tires was so bad that he put on the spare so I could drive it away. After closer inspection, and reading many of the posts here, I've come to the conclusion that I've been driving on the original Firestone Phoenix spare for the last few days (minimal miles). This has been confirmed by a very knowledgeable Pagoda owner as well. Upon realizing this I've ordered a new set of tires (the Coker Phoenix) and the car will now sit until they arrive. Attached are two shots of the tire.
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) Phoenix1.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/Lindsay/200612721823_Phoenix1.jpg)
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Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) Phoenix2.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/Lindsay/20061272190_Phoenix2.jpg)
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Lindsay (Southern California)
1971 280SL (Automatic, A/C)
180 G-Silver Body, 396 G-Blue Top
M-B Tex Interior Blue
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Just a heads up. I think that the tread width and/or rolling diameter of the Coker "Phoenix" tires is just a little oversize. I say this because it appears that it is a slightly tighter fit on the spare tire mount of my '66 230SL. The tire comes into contact with both the fuel filler neck at the rear and the wheel wheel well at the front of the spare and top (inner) sidewall interferes with the trunk hinge on that side. How I noticed this is that the trunk hinge has made a nice impression on my spare tire cover and that corner of the trunk is not sitting flush with the fender line anymore because of the interference with the new spare tire. I think that the only way to take care of this problem is to let the air out of my spare - which sort of defeats the purpose, don't you think?
- Mike Hughes -ô¿ô-
1966 230SL Auto P/S
Havanna Brown (408)
Light Beige (181)
Cream M-B Tex (121)
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Mike Hughes et al,
I'm astounded that this thread keeps popping back to the forefront every few months!
One of the reasons I purchased the Coker is that it was one of the few, if not the only properly sized (i.e. 185HR14) tires still available in properly sized (i.e. 3/4") white wall. As each day goes by we seem to be more limited in our tire choices...even finding 14" tires is limited as most manufacturers are going to larger and larger every model year.
With all due respect to the Sindelfingen assembly line workers of several decades ago I think part of the issue you experience(d) is variances in manufacturing tolerance of the car. The reason why I suggest that is that the 205/70 sized tire on a standard 6" steel rim simply will not fit at all on my spare mount; others don't seem to have this issue. The same 205's didn't have much of a rub issue on lock turns on my car, but on others they do. I would more suspect variance in the car then in the tire at this point in time. Something has to be different, no?
If you are keeping the Cokers and have to let the air out of your spare--suggest getting one of those battery-operated compressors; else keep up your AAA membership and don't forget MB Roadside assistance!
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
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Michael Salemi wrote: "I'm certainly not suggesting that these are the ONLY acceptable tires for the 113, but I would guess we should have tires with stiff sidewalls. Aside from these Phoenix, I couldn't even hazard a guess as to how we can tell the stiffness of the sidewalls. I don't think it is something that is quantified. Are there other tires out there with stiffer sidewalls? I'm sure there are...but how to tell?"
Well, I went through all the replies, but none of them really address this question. Let me venture an answer: It depends on the Load Index (LI). As you can see below, the load index tells you how much weight a tire can take. I am no expert, but I guess that in order to get a tire to endure more weight, the sidewall has to get stiffer.
L I Weight permitted per tire / kg
91 615
92 630
93 650
94 670
95 690
96 710
97 730
98 750
99 775
100 800
101 825
102 850
103 875
With that in mind, I had my tires changed today. When I bought the car, it had 205/70 Goodyear allweather tires with a 1996 date.
Today, new Semperit Van Life 185 R 14 were mounted. These are actually van tires for small German vans on the wheelbase of a subcompact car. Advantage: Easy to get, cheap (64 $ apiece), and with a load index of 102 (850 kg)!!! Semperit is owned by Continental.
Here is my 20-miles-experience-review:
The car handles like it has power steering (which it has not!!!), and I have the feeling there is no rolling resistance whatsoever.
Should have done this 2 years ago!!!
Juergen
64 230SL #2933, 4sp, signal red, white hard top
2000 320 CDI Station Wagon
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I just put new Sumitomo HTR 200 205/70 tires on my SL.
My last set were Pirelli P4000 205/70. I was pretty happy with those - good cornering, solid feel on the road. Perhaps a bit more supple that the Michelin XVS I had previously used, but that could have been a factor of tire age.
I chose the Sumitomos after looking at the options. If you look at the tire size we need (I prefer 205/70) at Tire Rack, there are only a few options. There is only one tire that size that is listed as a High Performance Summer tire: The Sumitomo HTR 200. At $46 each, the price is excellent. I ordered from Tire Rack on Tuesday afternoon: UPS delivered them to Toronto on Thursday morning.
My first reaction on driving the new tires was "when did I get power steering?" The tires have very low rolling resistance, which you feel right away in the parking lot and on the road. They're very smooth and comfortable. Leaning into hard corners has felt good on anything I have tried so far. There are no clearance problems.
I'm happy.
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I also replaced my tires with the Coker "Phoenix" 185/H14s this summer and what a diference in performance and handling. Before my '66 230 would wander all over the road and steered like a truck. Now it feels like it has power steering even though it does not. While expensive, I highly recommend these tires on Pagodas.
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what tires were on before the Cokers?
thanks
bjudd
1969 280 SL 5 sp
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quote:
Originally posted by German Dude
Today, new Semperit Van Life 185 R 14 were mounted. These are actually van tires for small German vans on the wheelbase of a subcompact car. Advantage: Easy to get, cheap (64 $ apiece), and with a load index of 102 (850 kg)!!! Semperit is owned by Continental.
Here is my 20-miles-experience-review:
The car handles like it has power steering (which it has not!!!), and I have the feeling there is no rolling resistance whatsoever.
Should have done this 2 years ago!!!
Juergen
64 230SL #2933, 4sp, signal red, white hard top
2000 320 CDI Station Wagon
This sounds like a fairly sensible idea, but for one thing: the speed rating on these Van-Life tyres is only 'T' - up to 118mph(190kmh). Whilst I doubt you'd ever consider doing these sorts of speeds in your Pagoda, it is considered bad practice to use tyres that have a speed rating lower than that of the maximum speed of the car - which is why modern sports cars often use 'Z' rated tyres or more.
I'd personally like to think that if I popped over to Germany and went on the Autobahn to see what my Pagoda could do in terms of top speed, my tyres could handle it....
Rhodri
1965 230SL
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Rhodri,
quote:
I'd personally like to think that if I popped over to Germany and went on the Autobahn to see what my Pagoda could do in terms of top speed, my tyres could handle it....
Rhodri
Maybe some 215/45 'Z' 17s :?:
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) Buli0446.JPG (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/naj/200682311175_Buli0446.JPG)
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naj
68 280SL
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Oddly enough Naj, I have seen those wheels look a lot worse than that. Must be that the Pagoda can carry them off!
I am very happy with my Michelin MXVs: they ride great, grip well enough and look the part
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quote:
Originally posted by bjudd
what tires were on before the Cokers?
And were any other changes (like an alignment) made when the tires were replaced?
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
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My 66 230 had michelins on it before but they we probably 10 to 15 years old as far as we could tell. They were 185-14X size. We did no alignment work or any other adjustments other than balancing each wheel/tire before intalling them. Ted Scheuermann 66 230Sl
97 E320
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So, just re read this entire thread and I need to see if the tire chart was ever placed on the home page.
that being said, what tire should I have installed on a 230 sl?
It sounds like there a lot of options
matt
Matt
66 230 sl - "white"
78 300 D - Blue
98 C230
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quote:
Originally posted by merrill
So, just re read this entire thread....
After reading this entire thread you should know one thing - there are many opinions on what you should mount on your 230SL. I believe I'm using Michelin Symmetry 195/75r14, but what you use is up to you.
Are you asking about size, or brand, or what?
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
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quote:
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) Buli0446.JPG (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/naj/200682311175_Buli0446.JPG)
60.04 KB
naj
68 280SL
A 113 with alloy wheels and low profile tires always reminds me of a time back when I was still in highschool. I had just mounted a set of Mikey Thompsons on Cragar uni-lugs for a friend's 68 Mustang. Because they were uni-lug wheels I bolted them on my 65 230sl. The fronts were F70-14's on 7" wide rims, the rears were something like J60-14's on 12" reverse offset rims. They looked realy stupid, and that was the point. But to put icing on the cake I duc-taped on a Firebird rear deck spoiler.
My father when he came into the shop was somewhat less than amused. His responce was his usual parental admonition, "Alan don't be a f---ing idiot."
I still have issues.
Al :O)
113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket
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When I first purchased my car a local tire guru told me that the original Phoenix tire was 80 inches in circumference. This would make the "original" size a 185/80 14. Using the Miata chart posted some time I ago, I came up with the modern day size of 195/75 14. With this size, I believe the car rides and looks as it should but that's just me.
http://www.miata.net/garage/tirecalcold.html
Kevin Caputo
Boca Raton, FL
1967 230 SL Automatic
670 Light Ivory
113 Bronze/Brown MB Tex
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quote:
Originally posted by KevinC
When I first purchased my car a local tire guru told me that the original Phoenix tire was 80 inches in circumference. This would make the "original" size a 185/80 14. Using the Miata chart posted some time I ago, I came up with the modern day size of 195/75 14. With this size, I believe the car rides and looks as it should but that's just me.
http://www.miata.net/garage/tirecalcold.html
Kevin Caputo
Boca Raton, FL
1967 230 SL Automatic
670 Light Ivory
113 Bronze/Brown MB Tex
Back in the good old days of the 1960's and 1970's, "Metric" tires that were fit on "foreign" cars basically came in two varieties--"standard" profiles which were not mentioned (80-series) and the wider, 70 series. Not included in my thoughts here are exotic cars, I'm talking run of the mill cars like ours, like all the Brits of the time, etc.
Really wide 60, 50 series hardly existed. Intermediates like 75 didn't exist either, or at least were so uncommon as to be just about unheard of. Cars came with stock tires in a specific width (like 185mm) and most came with 80 series. So, we have the reproduction Cokers today which are designated as 185-HR14 but in reality are 185/80-HR14. The 80 was almost never shown on the tire itself. The Coker's don't show it either. Somewhere along the line all cars switched to Metric sizing and they added that "P" designation, and came up with the intermediate 75 profile too.
Sporty or hot cars of the time--my 1979 BMW 320i for example, came with "wide" 70 series tires. Hardly wide by today's standards.
If your car didn't have wide tires on it, you selected wide tires by adding 20 to the width and going to 70 series. My MG which had 165R13's went to 185/70-13. My Austin Cooper S which had 145-10's went to 165/70-10. Probably hard to find those today.
Now of course most tires are in the 70, 60 and wider profiles making the old tires that our cars were designed for harder and harder to find with each passing day.
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
-
When I was interviewing prospective tires for my 66 230sl I had with me an actual 185-HR14 Phoenix tire from the late 60's (my spare). Of the tires that I looked at the one came the closest in size and appearance were the Michelin Symetry P195/75R14. They also have a more traditional tread pattern similar to the old Michelin X tires.
From what I rember back in the mid 70's when the USA tire companies were switching from the letter size system to the P-metric system, standard aspect ratio tires were called 78 series. Ok, please don't think that I'm trying to pick a fight over something as trival as 2 percentage points.
al :O)
113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket
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quote:
Originally posted by al_lieffring
When I was interviewing prospective tires for my 66 230sl I had with me an actual 185-HR14 Phoenix tire from the late 60's (my spare). Of the tires that I looked at the one came the closest in size and appearance were the Michelin Symetry P195/75R14. They also have a more traditional tread pattern similar to the old Michelin X tires.
From what I rember back in the mid 70's when the USA tire companies were switching from the letter size system to the P-metric system, standard aspect ratio tires were called 78 series. Ok, please don't think that I'm trying to pick a fight over something as trival as 2 percentage points.
al :O)
113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket
I believe you are absolutely correct--the "standard" profile for domestic sized tires was a 78, and an 80 for metric.
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
-
Rodd,
Guess I was thrown by all the opinions and options. Especially when the subject turned to the load index.
If I am going to spend the dough I would like to get a tire that will make the car drive and ride as it should.
I will probably use the steel rims from my 300d as the sl rims need to be re painted.
matt
Matt
66 230 sl - "white"
78 300 D - Blue
98 C230
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quote:
Originally posted by merrill
Rodd,
Guess I was thrown by all the opinions and options. Especially when the subject turned to the load index.
If I am going to spend the dough I would like to get a tire that will make the car drive and ride as it should.
I will probably use the steel rims from my 300d as the sl rims need to be re painted.
Matt,
I guess the tire you should use depends on your goals. What fits you?
- Historically correct tire size & tread pattern?
- Functional tire for safe & casual motoring?
- Functional tire fast sporty (competitive?) driving?
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
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Rodd,
well, I am looking for a tire for safe & casual motoring.
That being said, I would like a tire that works well with the suspension on the 230 sl.
thanks
matt
Matt
66 230 sl - "white"
78 300 D - Blue
98 C230
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I purchased Bridgestone Turanzas from TireRack about a year ago and am quote satisfied with the ride, handling, sound, looks, cost. I believe they come in blackwall, too.
quote:
Originally posted by merrill
Rodd,
well, I am looking for a tire for safe & casual motoring.
That being said, I would like a tire that works well with the suspension on the 230 sl.
thanks
matt
Matt
66 230 sl - "white"
78 300 D - Blue
98 C230
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Kevin Caputo
Boca Raton, FL
1967 230 SL Automatic
670 Light Ivory
113 Bronze/Brown MB Tex
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OK guys and gals I'm gonna drag out the old tire nirvana thread. I am ready for new tires and I want blackwall 205-70 r14. Anybody have any updated info or experience. I have 205's on now but have wore them out. They are Goodyear Eagle GT's. They have been OK. I would rather have something more elite and European, but I could end up with the Chinese Sumitomos. They are the best looking tire to me right now. Thank you all for helping on this one.
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quote:
I am ready for new tires and I want blackwall 205-70 r14.
As recently as a few weeks ago, The Tire Rack had Michelin Harmony in stock in 205 70R14 Blackwall.
I bought 4 tires. Tire Rack shipped them to a tire dealer near me to put them on. The tires are "lookin' good and ridin' good."
Richard M, NYC
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I wonder if Pete S. could share his tire brand & size? and how he rates his brand. I recall how sharp they looked during our last SF trip...Pete?
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quote:
Originally posted by graphic66
OK guys and gals I'm gonna drag out the old tire nirvana thread. I am ready for new tires and I want blackwall 205-70 r14. Anybody have any updated info or experience. I have 205's on now but have wore them out. They are Goodyear Eagle GT's. They have been OK. I would rather have something more elite and European, but I could end up with the Chinese Sumitomos. They are the best looking tire to me right now. Thank you all for helping on this one.
Sumitomos are great, if your car is tight. If your suspension is tired they have a tendency to follow the grooves in the highway. Are you thinking of the HTR200 or 400?
edit Added signature
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I was considering the Sumitomo HTR 200. I see a set of Michelin X's for sale. They are the 80.000 mile tire. Anybody have experience with these? I really want a "cool tire on my car. Sumitomo isn't too cool even if it is good. I don't like the word "harmony" on a tire either. Anybody use the Pirelli P3000M, they look cool. I like a good looking tire as much as good handling.
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quote:
Originally posted by graphic66
I really want a "cool tire on my car. Sumitomo isn't too cool even if it is good. I don't like the word "harmony" on a tire either.
Well spoken! ;)
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I too have been very pleased with the ride and handling of the Bridgestones...
quote:
Originally posted by KevinC
I purchased Bridgestone Turanzas from TireRack about a year ago and am quote satisfied with the ride, handling, sound, looks, cost. I believe they come in blackwall, too.
quote:
Originally posted by merrill
Rodd,
well, I am looking for a tire for safe & casual motoring.
That being said, I would like a tire that works well with the suspension on the 230 sl.
thanks
matt
Matt
66 230 sl - "white"
78 300 D - Blue
98 C230
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Kevin Caputo
Boca Raton, FL
1967 230 SL Automatic
670 Light Ivory
113 Bronze/Brown MB Tex
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I replaced my 1984 vintage new (then) Michelin MXV's? blackwall 205/70 r14's with 205/70 r14 Yokohama Avid T4's --- black-walls (make sure if you order Avid T4's that they're Avid T4's though... and not the touring version Avid tire). They're definintely not as stiff as the Michelins were, but I've pumped them up to max pressure to stiffen them up (cornering) and after a bit of wear-in (300 miles) they're not too bad in cornering performance... still not nearly as good as the Michelin's from '84 were . There's no 'groove' problem with them as I've heard there is with the Sumitomo's though. I've only had them on the car for a bit under 1000 miles so I can't comment on how well they'll wear though.... nor in rain soaked roads as there's been no rain since I bought them.
As for Michelin harmony's... I'm like you. But, that having been said, some 300SL Gullwings and roadsters being shipped to clients after restoration (bottom up) that sell for $600k and win shows have Michelin Harmony's on them. It's apprently more important for show/tell and status for people that can afford $600k + that the tires are Michelin than what type Michelin they are.
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quote:
Originally posted by graphic66
I was considering the Sumitomo HTR 200. I see a set of Michelin X's for sale. They are the 80.000 mile tire. Anybody have experience with these? I really want a "cool tire on my car. Sumitomo isn't too cool even if it is good. I don't like the word "harmony" on a tire either. Anybody use the Pirelli P3000M, they look cool. I like a good looking tire as much as good handling.
Get the cool looking tires. Unless you drive daily, why would want a 80,000 mile tire. If I did not drive daily it would definitely be a factory syle tire. Remember to check the date codes on your tires. Goodyear, Sears etc... and many others have sold "new" three to four year old tires.
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I have the mxv 185 80 14 on mine and they are brilliant, worth every penny. I didn't like the word "energy" on my previous tyres either.
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quote:
Originally posted by paulr
I have the mxv 185 80 14 on mine and they are brilliant, worth every penny. I didn't like the word "energy" on my previous tyres either.
I have those also, but mine are probably about 10 years old and to the best of my knowledge, they are not for sale anymore, at least not in the states... If you know otherwise please point me in that direction...
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They are available from Longstone tyres in the UK. They are expensive though, about $300 each.
quote:
Originally posted by scoot
quote:
Originally posted by paulr
I have the mxv 185 80 14 on mine and they are brilliant, worth every penny. I didn't like the word "energy" on my previous tyres either.
I have those also, but mine are probably about 10 years old and to the best of my knowledge, they are not for sale anymore, at least not in the states... If you know otherwise please point me in that direction...
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Hello all,
It was time for new tires on my SL, so as I always do, I researched this site for infomation on what tires members are wearing, and the availablity of current produced tires. There was much discussion on 185s vs 195s and 205s. Also concern about 80R to 70R, and the speed ratings. There was also a concern about the curb guard not being on the new design tires.
I wanted to keep with the original aspect ratio to assure that the speedometer and odometer stay close to accurate as possible. Also I wanted to retain the original look and height of the SL. And last I wanted to assure that load index and speed rating was close to original specs.
I currently have a set of Michelin XVS 185/HR/14 BW, and a spare of the Phoenix original that is now time to replace. Of the new tires currently on the market many members like the Michelin Harmony 195/70R/14, but speed rating is only "S" (180KMs), the Dunlop SP40, handling issues, the Pirelli P4000 205/70R/14, a little wider then I would like, the Yokohama Avid T4s 205/70R/14, sidewalls not stiff, wishy-washy feel, the Sumitomo TR, the Cooper, and the Coker reproduction of the Phoenix 185/HR/14, but only in whitewalls, and priced "really" high at $306.
So I did have a few to choose from, but I was not happy with any of these selections, so I continued to around for any other brands that would fit my bill. I found Goodyear Assurance 195/75R/14, a close fit, but still not happy, Then I found the tire that I think is as close as you can get to original specs. It is the Vredestein Sprint Classis 185/HR/14. This tire is a import from Holland and is built for performance. It is made for use on the Autobahn. It has a classic tread and side wall design.
This tire is produced in many sizes of the classic sports cars of the 50s & 60s. The sidewall is stiff, the load is 90, the rubber compound is hard, and of course the speed rating is "H" 210KMs. This tire is priced at $139. each and you can order them from Tiresbyweb.com.
I truly believe that this tire should be added to your list of replacement tires. I will give you an update on handling aspects of this tire once mounted. I am currently on steel wheels, but will replace with original MB part numbered alloy "Brunt" style wheels that were available as optional equipment when my SL was produced. Took months to locate four wheels with original part numbers (108 400 0902, Jx14H2) that were in good shape.
So if anyone has any questions, or needs futher infomation concerning these Vredestein tires, please contact me.
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Ditto on the Vredestein Sprint Classics. I've used them for years on my 356 Porsches with excellent results. By far the most period correct looking tire (with modern performance) out there.
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I've had the 205/70 Yokohama Avid T-4s on my car for 11,000 miles over 5 years. I don't find the sidewalls too soft or "wishy-washy" at all. The wet weather braking is far superior to the Bridgestone Potenza 960s on my BMW. The best tire I ever had on my Acura was the Goodrich T/A sport.
On the Pagoda the Yokahamas are predictable in hard cornering and don't jump free like the Michelins I've owned. Michelins get 80K miles by being hard which makes their braking and cornering less effective. The Yokohamas are soft tread, and that makes them better in the corners and panic stops. My Yokos were manufactured in the 51st week of 2001, so I will replace them next year regardless of mileage. Never push a tire that's over 8 years old. I would buy Yokohamas again, but not the Bridgestones, and not Michelin's Harmony.
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quote:
Originally posted by graphic66
Anybody use the Pirelli P3000M, they look cool. I like a good looking tire as much as good handling.
I have the Pirelli P400's (205 size), put them on after one of my Michelins lost a big piece of rubber on the highway (too old) now about 8 years ago. So it's time for me to get new ones based on age - the only problem is that, even after almost 60,000 kms (about 37 thousand miles) they still look new, having worn little. Still, they are getting old.
I will for sure try out the Vredestein vintage ones. Mostly because I really want to go back to the original width (185). The 205s look brawny, but a bit too much so. The Vredestein (a Dutch) company by the way was saved from bankruptcy earlier this week through a reverse-takeover by one of the largest Russian tire makers. The new combination is now in the top-8 largest tire makers in the world (probably they're no. 8).
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Cees,
It is good news to hear that the company is going to continue. From what I hear they make really good tires, and they are among a few only making vintage tires for the classis sports cars. Keep me informed of the progess of the company.
Thanks,
Bob
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-UPDATE=
I just wanted to update you that I got the Vredestein 185HR14 tires from UPS yesterday and was pleasently surprised. The side wall is classic with the curb bumper ring, and the tread design is also very classic. I had them mounted on my steel wheels for the time being, till I get the alloys back from painting. Anyway, the ride on these is alwsome, and I am compairing these to the tires I just took off ( Michelin XVS 185HR14). Traction is wonderful, ride is comfortable and quiet. I would highly recommand these tires. If you are currently or will in the future be looking for tires that meet the design specs of the W113, or just want a tire that will show well at shows as a classic tire, then I say look at these tires. Contact Josh Springer at jspangler@tirefactory.net for additional infomation and tell him I sent you.
Bob
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Any pictures of those mounted? I would like to see how they look. I am for sure looking hard at the Vredstiens, now 185 or 205...
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I believe they also have a 195/75HR/15
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a
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It's a good thing this thread resurfaced. My tires are cracking due to its history of being under L/T storage. I need to replace them preferably with 185HR14 tires.
Do any of you have the contact info for the other tire vendor(s) who sells that vintage spec?
Cheers,
Michael
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Specs on Vredestein tires.
The info:
Vredestein Sprint Classic @ $135.00 each
Tire size - 186 HR 15
Section width - 185.17 mm (7.29")
Section height - 149.08 mm (5.83")
Overall diameter - 651.51 mm (25.65")
Aspect ratio - .80
Load index - 90 = 1323 lbs
Speed rating - H = 130 mph (210 Km/h)
approved wheel width - 114.3 - 152.4 mm (4.5 - 6")
The contact for these tires is Josh Spangler at 1 (800) 576-1009 ext 775 (e-mail is jspangler@tirefactory.net) also you can see the ad at www.tiresbyweb.com
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I've been uising Vredestein 185/14 tires for about three years and they really ride great and look good. I would reccoment them. I don't think they are made in a whitewall in that size however.
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I too am looking to purchase new tires for my 1970 280SL. I have narrowed the search down to the Coker Phoenix 185R14 or the Vredestein Sprint Classic 185HR14. The Coker is whitewall and claims to be made for 60's and 70's Mercedes. Jaguar folks speak highly of the Vredestein's.
Which tire does the forum recommend for handling, etc.
Thank you
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quote:
Originally posted by bbryant
I too am looking to purchase new tires for my 1970 280SL. I have narrowed the search down to the Coker Phoenix 185R14 or the Vredestein Sprint Classic 185HR14. The Coker is whitewall and claims to be made for 60's and 70's Mercedes. Jaguar folks speak highly of the Vredestein's.
Which tire does the forum recommend for handling, etc.
Thank you
Read all of the posts in this thread and you will see that different people have different opinions. My Spring Classic tires are scheduled to be delivered to me on 7/25/08 -- so I guess my conclusion is that the Vredesteins are the best choice for me...
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Took my Vredesteins on the Interstate last weekend for a 300 mile round trip. At 65 mph it was a GREAT ride. Like driving a "new" car. Mind you I also have PS, new brakes/pads etc, and shocks. A really great handling tire that conforms to the car's specs.
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Thanks for the response. I am going to purchase the Vredesteins.
Bill Bryant
1970 280 SL
1967 Jaguar XKE
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Just installed Vredesteins on 5.5" w123 alluminum wheels. I can honestly say that in the 8 years I've had the car this is the best single improvement I have made. The car looks and feels terrifc, nimble and just 'feels right.' I strugled with the choice, 205s vs. 195, vs 185. Our minds are conditioned to think that wider is probably better, but in these cars it's not the case. The car sits higher, (I had 195 / 70 Bridgestones before) and the wider diameter fills the wheel well the way it was designed. Since I do not particularly care for white walls, these are the perfect choice. The wheels save about 20 lbs. per wheel and take the 14" hubcaps, so they are not noticeable. Make sure they are properly balanced and your front end is properly alligned. They are significantly cheaper than the Phoenix, but not cheap... but worth every penny.
Rick Yepes
70 280SL
63 220S
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I keep seeing references to tire age over 5 or 8 years or so meaning that the tire is less than reliable or poorer performance, or words to that effect. FWIW, I'm of the opinion that this is pure unadulterated malarky postulated by the tire mfg'ers and dealers.
I've been driving at high speeds (75 mph minimum mostly in US, up to 115 -120 mph on autobahns for extended periods with fully loaded cars --- in Germany on autobahns ('60's and '80's) on freeways in US, and on wild roads with pot-holes and rough surfaces since 1962.
The only times I've ever changed tires (with one exception -- see below) is when the wear became excessive --- and when I was young, "excessive" meant nearly bald. I've never had a blow-out, tread loss, or any other hazardous event occur while driving. I've used almost exclusively Michelins on every car I've ever owned (also see current exceptions below).
On rare occassions over this span of driving I've replaced tires due to wear in less than 5 or 8 years, but that's maybe 2x or 3x in all these years. I don't use bargain basement prices or brands though either.
I also have a '65 C20 Chevy pick-up that I bought in '76, put new tires on it at that time, and only replaced them 2 - 3 years ago (28 - 29 years use) --- treadwear reason finally. The truck was/is used to haul loads (I put up to 1600-1700 lbs load on it and drive at highway speeds (70-72 mph in CA on freeway's in NorCal) under these loads for extended duration... and have never had either a flat or any other problems.
Now... granted I may be one of the great exceptions, but considering the extended period of driving Volvo's, VW's, BMW's, MB's, Honda's, Chevy Pick-up over this span of time and almost always agressively at high speeds, with narry a problem ever with the tires (I had a flat --- nails --- a couple of times while speeding down the freeway though) and with tires reaching up to 20 some-odd years old, and normally in the 6 - 12 year old range before changing them due to treadwear, I have to say that there's no objective evidence or study's I've seen (by other than a tire mfg'er... and I don't trust fox's guarding hen houses) that says older tires have a significantly greater probabilty of reliability failure than the normal variance in tire reliability when new or nearly new. Not to offend anyone, but tire mfg's / dealers who subscribe to the "replace tires every 5-8 years" are simply using this tactic to get the nervous Nelly's to spend twice or three times as much for tires as they otherwise would need to.... and it serves the interests of the tire co's.
Just my opinion and experience. Thought somebody should point this out though so that not everybody get's scared out of their wits when tires reach 5 or 8 years old.
Exceptions:
1) I replaced a set of Michelins from 1984 on my 250SL this year... not because they were excessively worn (30k miles or so on them), nor side-walls cracked, nor any other issues with them... they drove superbly, cornered like there was no tomorrow, etc., but because I got nervous since I'd let the car sit on them, unmoved, in the garage for 15-16 years before I decided to pull the car out in 2000 and get it back in shape. I drove on them from 2000 'til this year at crazy high speeds in hot (CA) weather for extended durations. I decided finally however that 24 years, especially having sat idle for 15-16 years during that period, with consequent out of round condition --- that dissappeared after about 1000 miles of driving --- was probably a bit economically risky considering what was at stake was high cost damage to the car IF one of the tires blew while I was at high speeds. Cost of new tires was <<<<< than cost of repairing (if repairable) the 250SL.... and time the 250SL would be hung up getting fixed or finding a replacement for it was no minor consideration in my decision to finally replace my beloved '84 Michelins.
2) My wife's SL500's --- on the first one ('94 version) we used Pirelli Pzero Neros or Bridgestone Potenza's---- great handling & performance .... but treadwear was awful... 3 years or 30k max is best we could do (and that was pushing beyond treadwear limits), and the newer one (2002 version) uses Pzero Neros... same story... we may get 25k-30k out of them in 2.5 - 3 years use.
3) My C20 Pickup uses Goodyear Truck tires --- big ones on big wheels. I forget the exact type, but I've used the same type since '76... latest set were harder to find though, since they're now no longer mfg'ing this exact type. I figure this latest set will outlast me this time.
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If anyone harbors doubts about the wisdom of considering replacing aged tires, one might want to look at this:
http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=4826897
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For those that would believe the inferred inference, but never stated 20/20 video that aged tires degradation has some kind of limit based on facts, I suggest a thorough reading and digestion of the NHTSA studies on Tire Aging impact on performance & reliability to date... a study which is inconclusive as to whether the impacts to performance/reliability are dominated by or even significantly influenced by age vs mileage vs tire mfg'er and brand. This study is not yet completed but was supposed to have been by "early 2008".. there's been no reported update since the congressional report (Aug '07).
The April 2007 report - Phase 1: http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-01/esv/esv20/07-0496-W.pdf
Please make note that aging of material properties of tires is related directly to temperature.. which increases oxidation rates of the polymers, and hence stiffens them relative to when they are brand new (exit mfg'ing process). This does not mean that tire material properties aging is a significant or material cause for degradation in tire use (tread separation or side-wall failures, etc).
The data shown in the above report shows that degradation in tire reliability occurs with both age and mileage, but the two variables cannot be differentiated as to which is dominant or most significant... in short, there's no data thus far or in that study which is able to show a statistically valid difference (at any level of confidence) between the effects of aging and mileage. The tires with the greatest age had the greatest milage. The correlation coefficients (Rsquared) varied more by tire mfg'er and brand/model than any other factor.
The other report August '07 is a report to Congress... it contains very little data but is lengthy in regards to what the NHTSA and industry groups have done so far (in terms of tests) and are now trying to do --- namely expand the studies evaluation methods to find statistically valid differentiators, and refine an accelerated aging test to relate to real world evaluations (based on the Phoenix Arizona tire selections used in the April Evaluation (above)).
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/DOT/NHTSA/NRD/Multimedia/PDFs/Crashworthiness/CongReptTireAgingFinal080907.pdf
In the congressional report the paper states that the evaluation results of the refined study should be completed in "early 2008", but I have been unable to find any "final" or other interim reports on this study.
A significant result of Ford's comprehensive study (which the NHTSA references) is that the temperature aged factors equate high temperture locations (i.e. Phoenix as base) with northern temperature locations at 1:2... that is, a 4-6 year tire road used in Phoenix is equivalent in material properties to an 8 - 12 year road used tire in Northern states.
Also important, in the data and conclusions from the Phase 1: April study the speed rating of the tire appears to have a significant relation to it's aging properties in terms of reliability... the higher the speed rating the better it ages in reliability... though in my opinion the data is so sparse (so few samples) as to be as equally likely to be due to the brand/mfg'er than the speed rating itself.
Finally, let me point out that the relationship to aging vs mileage vs reliability has definitely not been established in any form. The Firestone Tire fiasco (which set this whole question off) found that the mfg'ing method, Firestone's design, and quality control were the primary culprits in the high rates of failure. In short, thus far, anecdotal evidence still points primarily to specific tire design, mfg'ing and quality as the most significant culprits. Perhaps, therefore, my near exclusive use Michelins over the past 40 years of driving may have something to do with the fact that I've been able to use tires for periods exceeding 20 years (with low mileage) without every having experienced a problem ---- and CA is one of the medium temperature states in our inland coastal region.
For those that prefer "better safe than sorry", then one would have to recommend replacing all tires every 1.5 years, since in the Phoenix Tires (Phoenix, AZ... not Phoenix tires) studies reliability tests most brands Time to Failure was REDUCED BY 50% AT 2 YEARS....or one could even recommend being even safer... replace them every year.... or safer yet, every 6 months. You get the picture... if you're going to use arbitrary criteria to gage reliability, you can pick any number.
In terms of fatalities estimates related to tire failures ---- which failures cannot be distinguished between age, inflation, mileage, road-hazards, defective tires, out of balance, etc. ---- NHTSA estimates there have been 400 tire related fatalities / year with 300 million tires shipped / year. Assuming a "set" of tires = 4, then there are 1.33 x 10-6 fatalities/tire or 5.33 x 10-6 fatalities / "set" of tires sold. In other words, the probability that you will die due to a single tire failure on your "set" is ~ 1 in a million. This is the same as 187,500 tire "sets" sold per fatality related to tires... a 'set' of tires may be roughly equated to a 4-wheel vehicle. Stats on fatalities related to tires is from NHTSA.
To put this into perspective, the number of traffic fatalities per 100,000 vehicles is ~17 (16.99 in 2006). http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx
If tires account for approx. 1.87 fatalities / 100,000 vehicles, then that leaves ~15 fatalities for all other traffic related reasons, or ~7.5x - 8x more likely that you'll die from a traffic accident unrelated in any way to the set of tires on your car.... regardless of age, mileage, inflation, tire tread wear, defects, road hazard damage or any other condition of those tires.
In short, if you're inclined to drive at all, you're taking a far, far greater life risk by doing so than by using ancient tires on your vehicle.
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I appreciate all the scientific studies and experiments about older tires and safety and that opinions differ. I noticed cracks on the top surface and sidewalls on some of my tires when I first saw the car. The maunufacture date showed the tires were more than 10 years old.
Safety is an issue not only for the driver and pasenger but for those in cars and on the roadway near the car.
I erred on the side of safety and replaced all the tires. I guess my motto was "Better safe than sorry" especially when new tires can be a relatively low cost item.
I now have a nice feeling of security as I breeze down the highway.
Richard M, NYC
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Take a look at these links:
http://www.safetyresearch.net/tires.htm
and in particular, this document:
http://www.safetyresearch.net/Library/SRS_110504.pdf
for some background on the dangers of aged tires.
I call your attention to the third paragraph on page four of the document in the second link. Starting on page 10 of the document is an 8 page table detailing 50 tire related incidents, including the page four, third paragraph incident. At least one other collector car appears in the table, which includes tires from a variety of manufacturers, including Michelin.
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Here's the link to actual NHTSA Tire Advisory of June 2008.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/portal/site/nhtsa/template.MAXIMIZE/menuitem.f2217bee37fb302f6d7c121046108a0c/?javax.portlet.tpst=1e51531b2220b0f8ea14201046108a0c_ws_MX&javax.portlet.prp_1e51531b2220b0f8ea14201046108a0c_viewID=detail_view&itemID=be9d195e85a3a110VgnVCM1000002fd17898RCRD&pressReleaseYearSelect=2008
The items cited in that advisory are shown in italized type below. Highlighted (Bold) is my own.
The risk of a serious crash during hot weather can be heightened
by tires that are worn out, under-inflated or too old, ...
NHTSA research shows that hot weather – and overloaded vehicles –
can add significant stress to a tire, especially if it is not
properly inflated. Old tires also are subject to greater stress,
which increases the likelihood of catastrophic failure.
Note that overloaded or underinflated tires add significantly to
greater tire temperatures... adding to the climate condition, or
even over-riding climate (ambiant and road surface temperatures).
Both overloading and underinflation dramatically increase the
stress on the tires structure. The greater the mileage on
overloaded or underinflated tires the greater their internal
temperature and greater their accumulated stress (cyclic fatigue)....
hence the faster they "age". Data collected on vehicle accidents
attributed to tire failure would have to determine the history of
underinflation, overloading instances, and miles driven at known
speeds under those conditions to differentiate pure relation of age
with relation to use induced failure mechanism. Unfortunately this
data is largly unavailable after the fact when an accident has
occured. It therefore appears to me that the age factor
relationship is largly anecdotal as primary causes.
I also pointed out in my prior post on this topic (and related NHTSA
link to data) that the accelated stress & aging evalutions showed
far greater variation by tire brand and model and that mileage and
age couldn't be differentiated. I'm not disputing that age of the
tire alone isn't a factor... only that it's relative significance
in tire related accidents is far, far behind history of tire use
conditions and mfg'ing variations (internal defects). I'm also
guessing that tire mfg'er recommendations on maximum load ratings
may be driven largly by the target client vehicles loads ... i.e.
perhaps Ford Explorer's mfg'ers desired max load is X, so the
competing tire mfg'ers would tend to bias their tests to
be "acceptable" under load X as "max" load. This would also have
something to do with OEM vehicle's tire price contracts. Just my
opinion.
...tire condition is important for all vehicles, it is especially
critical for those more prone to rollover when tires fail. That
would include sport utility vehicles (SUVs), pickups or other
vehicles with a higher center of gravity.
I can't find the report now, but while researching this last week, the tire related failures in US were ranked as:
1 - Southwestern States, Pickups
2 - Midwestern States, Pickups
So it turns out that hottest climates with high proportion of
Pickups (assumedly with higher proportion used in farm &/or hauling
applications) are the dominant vehicles with tire caused
accidents. That's consistant with both tendency for tires to
often be "overloaded" during their use period, high center of
gravity (especially when overloaded), and longevity of use
independant of mileage. I wonder how many of these failures are for
rear tire catastrophic failures?
... check tire inflation with an inexpensive gauge, using the
vehicle manufacturers’ recommended pressures, which are found on
the driver’s side door pillar or in the owner’s manual.
Some tire and vehicle manufacturers have issued recommendations
for replacing tires that range from six to ten years of age.
Consumers are advised to check with their tire or vehicle
manufacturer for specific guidance.
“Remember that it is vitally important to check your spare tire
too,” said Administrator Nason. “Your spare can be a real safety
hazard if it is old or under-inflated.”