Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: merrill on September 07, 2015, 13:16:17
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well I believe my fluid coupler failed last night.
I was driving with a buddy and I noticed the motor rev but the it seemed the transmission was not transmitting the power to the road.
At the next stop I moved the shift selector to "2" pushed the accelerator pedal to the floor to select first.
The car took off then the motor rev'd again and then we heard a loud pop and that was it.
rolled to a stop, we could see the transmission fluid behind the car.
Had the car towed to my house, I need to crawl under it today to have a look.
After searching the forums I have read that these do fail and leaking fluid under the car can be a symptom of a failing TC.
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Look for a hole/s in trans cooler lines or hoses.
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Well, the fluid coupler is shot, it broke at the seam.
I crawled under the car tonight and i could spin the transmission half by hand.
now to find a replacement 4 bolt fluid coupler.
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Turns out finding a good used or rebuilt unit is harder than I thought.
Adsit co has 5 "good used" for $395 but there are risks dealing with them
Buds benz has one for $1150 + 500 core. This is 3x what my transmission guy says they should run
I have a call out to Gernold and a few others for assistance.
One thing to note is I cannot find a shop to "rebuild" these. My transmission guy has 25 needing re welding.
If anyone knows of a shop that would run 26 units please let me know.
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You might try these guys. I bought a rebuilt trans and coupler from them about a year ago. I had a good experience with them.
sunvalleymercedes@gmail.com
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Chuck
hi,
yes, I am working with Marc at sun valley. He has 25 units needing repair as well.
Thank you - Matt
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After living with unexplained fluid loss for a long time, I broke down and had my shop pull the transmission for a look. They replaced the torque converter because there was an stress crack where the spline boss is welded into the drum. The crack was so difficult to see it was only found after they used shop air to pressurize the unit. They charged me US $700 for the rebuilt one.
Now the large piece of cardboard that I park over is always bone dry. Woo Hoo!
Larry in CA
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The search continues for a repair shop and / or good used unit. (without dealing with Adsit co or paying buds outrageous prices)
Thanks everyone for their input.
Joe / Dan replied to your messages. hopefully you received them.
Matt
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replacement fluid coupler installed this weekend. took about 10 hours to R/R the transmission. (I had a few issues)
I have attached some photos showing the inside of both halves of the FC.
Thanks to everyone that helped me with this project.
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I have driven the car a few times since the r/r of the fluid coupler.
drives and shifts ok, however the normal "whine" when accelerating is now louder and heard at idle and thru the gears. The volume does decrease once I get to cruising speed.
After some research is looks like the noise is coming from the primary pump.
Need to reach out to Joe or a transmission shop for advise.
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Matt, Did you make sure that the fluid coupling was back all the way in the transmission during installation? The cogs in the coupling must engage the front pump during installation.
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Joe,
hmm,
cant remember for sure, the FC did slide on and i believe i heard it seat.
though, i do remember that there was little tolerance between the flywheel and the fc because I had not aligned the dowel pins.
thoughts?
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Normally, if you have clearance once the transmission is drawn together, then you are still engaged. If the FC becomes disengaged and uncoupled, then it has no clearance when drawn together tight and damage occurs. So you might be OK here. Remove the trans pan. You should find some clues there.
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I spray paint a white area on the FC before I install so I can see if there are any leaks after running. Small amounts of red trans fluid shows up very nicely on a white background but is very difficult to see on bare steel.
I have a guy down the road from me who is good enough to weld anything back together. Whether or not he would do a job like this is not something I could say at this time. I would imagine it would require a jig, a way to test for leaks, and it would need to be perfectly aligned.
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ok,
so. I dropped the transmission today, unfortunately I cannot pull the F/C off of the transmission.
(its still under the car on a transmission scissor jack)
Any tips on getting the F/C off. I tried to use the 4 bolts to wiggle it off.
I do recall when I removed the old one it took a while for it to come loose.
also, I found these 2 washers under the car, not sure where the go.
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Those aren't washers!! Those are ball bearing cages!!! Something let go somewhere! Input shaft/cover bearing? Could have been damaged when the FC let go. Could be the reason you cant get the cover off.
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Sounds like a damaged front pump. Bolt a piece of uni-strut across the FC, then tap it out.
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Tyler
yep, bet that is what those are, I was working on another project in the garage and had a very small sealed bearing for an electric motor come apart. that is probably where those came from.
Joe,
ok, will try to bolt something to the FC to tap it off.
I may just send the whole think to Mike at Mercedes Dismantlers.
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I thought those bearings on the input shaft were more like needle bearings and not ball and cage so I don't think they're from your trans. Besides, how would they get out to begin with?
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Thats the worst feeling when you put something back together and have what you think is an extra part. Then realize its not even from the same vehicle. Guys at the dealer used to "add" spare bolts to another tech's magnet dish mid repair as a joke.
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The front pump has only a brass type bushing. It will most certainly be damaged. At one time you could order this part separately and it was inexpensive. If the gears are damaged or the walls of the pump are damaged, you may need a whole pump. Most likely your rebuilder has good used units. Newer MB models have a screw in pin which keeps the converter from moving out of place during installation (a good inexpensive fix for a expensive problem). Obviously you were not the first to have this problem Matt. Sometimes you just have to pay for your education! I learned the same hard lesson many years ago.
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Joe;
You and I rarely talk yet I know what you're thinking almost before you say it. :)
BTDT enough times to say I completely agree.
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I still think the pump or bushing could have been damaged when the FC let go. When it broke in half there was no longer any support from the flex plate/flywheel for keeping things in line. I guess we will see shortly.
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Ah yes, Dan my friend, we pay for our education one way or another!
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Well Marc was able to get to my Transmission this week.
Turns out the fluid coupler was welded to the front pump. We are not sure how that happened.
Marc thinks maybe there was low fluid and it got hot.
anyway, unfortunately the torque converter is ruined. they had to pry the pump and coupler apart and broke off the tabs that drive the pump.
with some luck we will find a replacement FC (without breaking the bank) and i can get back on the road soon.
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Hi Matt, Dave here. We've met in person once or twice. I'm facing a similar problem. Not a pagoda, but similiar transmission on a '72 w114. Swapped out the transmission with one from a w108. Drove it around for a day before it started slipping again. Since I kept the same FC, I'm thinking it may be the problem. Going to pull it back out and have a look. I've never had ATF leaking out of the FC though. I've tried to contact the transmission guy in Sunland, CA and also have been talking to one in NJ. Hoping I don't have to get the whole transmission rebuilt.
Is there any way to check the FC from the outside, without pulling it out? Also how would I check the pump pressure.
Dave
'72 250C
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Early FCs had riveted hubs. The riveted seam begins to leak on some. Latest versions were steel with welded hubs, these never leak or break in half.
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I often wondered why Mercedes used a "fluid coupling" instead of a torque converter. They used torque converters in tanks in WW2 and certainly knew all about them. A torque converter can multiply the engine torque at slow speed up to two times. A story I heard many years ago was that the Germans were prohibited after the war to build torque converters. It gave Borg Warner an opportunity to develop an automatic transmission. I have a transmission from a later model MB in my shop and found that it fits just fine to the engine. I just have to make a bushing for the shaft. It is longer and I have to modify the linkage for the shift pattern, but I believe I can make it fit. Your comments are invited!
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Dave
hi,
i responded to your yahoo e mail.
anyway, you could always contact marc at mercedes dismantlers otherwise known as sun valley dismantlers.
matt
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well transmission is back in the car with a "new" rebuilt 4 bolt fluid coupler. drives like a champ.
turns out the brass front pump had welded itself to the FC. i believe the front pump was damaged when the FC blew. it was not working when i re installed the replacement FC and thats that.
unfortunately the bell housing was cracked when sun valley transmission was trying to pry off the FC.
so transmission is back, new bell housing, front pump and FC.
i hope i never have to do that job again. its not hard but it takes a lot of time and i am getting old
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I had a 67 250sl years ago that the torque or fluid couple split in half, it was the aluminum type. It did the same thing fluid all over the ground.
I thought the transmission was blown. The weld fails on this type of coupler. replace coupler and your good to go.
benzmech43 Livermore Ca