Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Electrical and Instruments => Topic started by: TheEngineer on October 13, 2004, 23:28:48
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I am playing with distributors: Bosch P/N 0 231 185 009 (MB P/N 002 158 38 01) was in the vehicle and I found that I could not obtain 30º advance at 3000 rpm and 3ºATDC at idle because the vacuum retard could only move about 12º. It is limited by a fixed stop and I would have to file the stop to obtain more travel.
Bosch P/N 0 231 116 051 is the old iron distributor which is NLA and has been superseded by the aluminum one shown above. However, the vacuum actuated travel can be adjusted and it was therefore possible to obtain the ignition timing values per the book. The car appears to run better for it.
What is the opinion of the Pagoda experts about using one or the other distributors?
1969 280SL,Signal Red, A/T, P/S, A/C, Both tops, 3.27 axle. Retired engr. West Seattle, WA
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Wasn't the Bosch 051 the original distributor installed in the car?
If that is the case, then certainly there would be no problems in replacing the later distributor with an 051 that is in good condition.
It seems to be appropriate to have the adjustable vacuum advance unit.
Bob (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
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One bit of experience is that ignition timing at idle can affect your ability to set the idle air/fuel mix. More advance speeds up the idle, which means you have to reduce the air and fuel to get proper idle speed, which seems to get the fi pump adjustment into a funny place where it doesn't behave properly. Even at 3 degrees my pump adjustment becomes non-responsive. I backed idle timing down 1 degree to solve this, using the vacuum adjustment on the 051 distributor.
From what I've read, the alu 009 distributor is closest to the US-spec '70/'71 distributor, which makes it not right for everything else. My suggestion is stick with the 051, and if it needs a rebuild, sent it to Dan Caron (Benz Dr.).
George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual
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I fully agree with George. I had the alu distributor in my 69 as well - and it gave me all kinds of problems when trying to match the settings for the idle and 3000 rpm. Take a look at this old string.
http://www.sl113.com/forums/index.php?topic=1455
I solved the problem by getting a rebuilt 051 distributor from Cees.
Per G. Birkeland
69 280 sl aut 834
Norway
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Can Dan Calton or Dr. Benz please email me. I have a question about my distributor.
Bob Geco
bobgeco@cs.com
1968 280SL
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Just ask anyone who has been through this sort of thing and they'll tel you how much better the car performs with the proper equipment. Matching everything up is the key here. Right distributor working right, good set of wires, hot coil and everything timed right.
What some may not realise is that the distributor timing relates to the IP timing and the amount of fuel that the pump puts out. The pump timing is static but the distributor isn't. Increasing fuel delivery ( amount ) needs advancing ignition to get max performance. At least that's my theory.
Daniel G Caron
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<<The pump timing is static but the distributor isn't. Increasing fuel delivery ( amount ) needs advancing ignition to get max performance. At least that's my theory...>
If I can add to that:
The importance of setting these mechanical FI systems to factory specs is that there is no feed-back between the ignition and pump, as there is no feedback from the air to the fuel amounts. [ aside from vac link ]
These are all predetermined in the measured design of the mechanicaly linked parts...kinda lile an old type-writer, if you will.
So, the engineering design has set these measured specs to result in the best power/performance band, overall.
Now, if each car was identical, driven the same , used the same gas, etc, they would not even need any adjusters.. but there are variables, so we can adjust all of these inter-related parts .
SO , because the design has this spec. BASE LINE , setting everything up to spec will give each car the best over-all performance. Any further tweaking should only be done after specs are set. Otherwise , you may have a setting way out of wack and still think your car is running well, but then when you go to a different load/rpm range , you get poor perfomance, etc.
Although it is nice that we are now able to bring systems on these up to date technically [ like point conversion for ignition],there is no way to couple the fuel mix and ignition as the new cars do so well. [closed loop/exhaust 02 sensed]. So our mechanics/measures have to be right on the money and in perfect working order.
It still is amazing how a little tweak on these can make such a difference...
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Hey , that's pretty good.
You're hired...........
Daniel G Caron
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quote:
Originally posted by George Davis
...... My suggestion is stick with the 051, and if it needs a rebuild, sent it to Dan Caron (Benz Dr.).
George, Dan, and other "Ingition Experienced Individuals",
How does one know when their distributor needs rebuilt? Is there some imperical measurement or test?
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
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theengineer,
When you set the timing to 30 degrees btdc @3000 rpm (without vacuum), what readings do you get at say 1500 rpm and at idle - still without vacuum?
naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
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To NAJ:
Now you ask, since I have the hood back on. It's really hard to see well because the hood is so much in the way. To give you good data, I'll connect a vacuum gauge, but not today. As I remember, the vacuum collapses as soon as I open the throttle. With no vacuum connected, I read about 14°BTDC. I don't remember at 1500 RPM, but it must have been per the BBB, otherwise I would have tinkered with it. I increased the travel of the vacuum diagphram about 2mm. This resulted in additional retard of about 4°. The 30° at 3,000 RPM did not change. The settings are now per the book and the car seems to run fine, but I haven't had it up to a prolonged 80MPH, that's as fast I can drive here
1969 280SL,Signal Red, A/T, P/S, A/C, Both tops, 3.27 axle. Retired engr. West Seattle, WA
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How do I know thee oh worn distributor? Let me count the ways.....
One of the ways is to do the idle test.
Warm the engine fully with a short drive and then let it idle. Blip the throttle a few times and see if the idle speed changes. Throttle up to a bout 1,500 and then slowly release the throttle.
If the idle speed goes back to roughly the same amount every time the flyweight springs are in good shape. If it's all over the place you have weak springs or a lot of sticky goo on the advance plate. To test further run the engine at idle and then shut the ignition off. Wihout touching anything, restart the engine and see what the idle speed is. If it's a lot lower do this test several times. If the engine now runs at the same idle speed every time try increasing idle speed to 1,500 again and then release throttle. If it idles higher than the '' set '' speed you have worn springs or possible binding linckage.
The spings will usually pull the flyweights back when you stop the engine - something that can't happen while running if they're too weak.
Remove the cap and push on the rotor. It should move sideways smoothly and always return to the same position. If you can move it back more it may be sticking. Sometimes the drive at the end of the distributor will have some play but this is a different problem and one that shouldn't affect how the car runs too much. Make sure the small spring is installed bewtween the drive gear and the drive collar on the bootom of the distributor. You can tell it's installed because the whole distributor will spring up as you remove it from the housing it sits in. This spring is important as it keeps a certain amount of tension between the drive collar and the drive gear.
Try to move the shaft where the rotor sits. It should feel tight with minimal amount of side play. Lifting the shaft up or down should be possible but it should be only a small amount ( maybe 1/8'' or so ) Sometimes the cam will be worn on the main shaft and will need replacement. This is rare but I've seen this and times where the whole thing was completely siezed up. This is most common on cars with CD ignition - less need need for tune ups leads to less maintenance.
In short I haven't seen where ANY distributor couldn't benifit rom a good cleaning and set up. It's rare that I find nothing wrong at all.
I've had number of people ask me about costs so if it's Ok with everyone I'll talk about that now.
The rebuild kits are about $40.00 and it takes 3 - 4 hours to go through and adverage rebuild. This includes complete dissasembly and inpection of all parts. The housing is glass beaded and painted on cast iron models. All new parts are installed unless the bearings are in good shape - everything else is replaced. I install new points and condensor.
Once it's partly assembled I run it on my distributor tester and check for function using a mighty vac to test the advance system. Any djustments are made before final assembly.
After I have it working right I finish assembly and then run it up to 6,000 RPM or higher. The best ones will go to 7,000 before the points start to float. This is an indication of how tight the bearings and other moving pieces are inside of the distributor. I have graphs which tell me what the advance curves are so I know if I have it set properly.
Total costs are a standard $189.00 USD. Any other needed parts would be extra of course. I'm hoping to have a supply of rebuilt units on hand for quicker turn around but most of the time I can have one in and out in a day or two.
Daniel G Caron
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D.C.
Do you sell dist individual parts?
Tnx
A Dalton
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Only time you will need extra parts is if the main shaft is worn, the vacuum cell is broken or the cam is worn. Almost all the other small parts you would need come in the rebuild kit.
I have several parted out distributors that I use as long as the parts are the same. These cars use 3 different types of distributor, vaccum advance, vacuum retard and the later aluminum ones. The sedans use similar units so parts can be mixed and matched.
Daniel G Caron
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Dear Dr. Benz:
It is exceedingly rare to find such good instructions presented so well. I have saved your thesis in my file entitled:"Operation Linke Spur".
Thank you very much.
1969 280SL,Signal Red, A/T, P/S, A/C, Both tops, 3.27 axle. Retired engr. West Seattle, WA
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I have my 051 set for 30deg at 3000RPM which seems to give me roughly 4 or 5 deg at idle........is this correct ?
I thought I had something going bad in the dizzie as the car was doing a lot of bucking at very slow speeds. I had decided to change the lenght of the vacuum rod, the vacuum unit needs to come off right ?
Anyway I discovered that the rod at the fuel pump was not set right, and a small adjustment here has transformed the low speed response, it will lug from about 900RPM in top with no jerkiness at all !
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor
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A couple of thoughts:
I used a vernier caliper to measure side play in my distributor shaft. The measurement was a bit rough, but showed at least 0.004 inch play. I think the factory spec is 0.002, max. The car actually ran ok, but it burned up points in short order. After a rebuild by Dan, the points are lasting a lot longer. Note that electronic ignition conversions can hide this sort of wear.
Did you note something Dan said about cars with CD ignitions having seized shafts due to lack of maintenance? As far as I'm concerned, that is one of the best arguments for staying with points. Points force you to do distributor maintenance, which includes oiling the shaft (under the rotor and the little oiler on the side). Very easy to ignore that if you never need to change points.
Ben, I believe the factory spec is 3 degrees ATDC at idle with vacuum connected. I removed the vacuum capsule to adjust it, it's easiest with the entire distributor out. (Yes, Dan had set it spot on at 3 degrees, but I wanted 2 degrees). You'll probably have to readjust the idle air and fuel if you change the advance at idle.
George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual
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The CD ignition units I talk about are the factory installed ones from mid '69 until end of production. These were also used in 250 ( 114 ) and 280S ( M 130 ) until about 1972. Early 450SL's often have seized mechanical advance.
Daniel G Caron
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quote:
Ben, I believe the factory spec is 3 degrees ATDC at idle with vacuum connected. I removed the vacuum capsule to adjust it, it's easiest with the entire distributor out. (Yes, Dan had set it spot on at 3 degrees, but I wanted 2 degrees). You'll probably have to readjust the idle air and fuel if you change the advance at idle
........is that for my '051 equipped 230 ??
If so I'll readjust just to see if things improve...........though its running and idling great right now !
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor
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Ben,
according to the Tabellenbuch, all 230, 250, and 280 SL's equipped with the 051 distributor have the following specs:
Idle: 2 +/-1 degrees ATDC, with vacuum
1500 rpm: 12-19 degrees BTDC, without vacuum
3000 rpm: 30 degrees BTDC, without vacuum
4500 rpm: 30 degrees BTDC, without vacuum
All measurements made with no load on the engine.
Please let us know if readjusting the idle timing makes any difference.
George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual
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051 distributors have 10 degrees of vacuum movement and 20 degrees of mechanical movement on average. I set them so that they move a total of 30 degrees by fine tunning the vacuum pull rod - the mechanical portion has a pre set limit.
You pretty much have to run these engines at slightly ADTC or they tend to ping. To get 30 degrees at 3,000 RPM the vacuum portion would need 6 degrees of movement on the tester I use ( I have to doubble everything because the distributor turns at 1/2 engine RPM )if you want to run at 2 degrees ATDC.
Daniel G Caron
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http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7928055925&category=33690
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Hello George,
What version of the workshop manual are you referencing and what job number is it?
I have a manual for cars starting 1959 and I would like to be sure the info matches.
thanks
Bob (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
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quote:
Originally posted by hands_aus
Hello George,
What version of the workshop manual are you referencing and what job number is it?
I have a manual for cars starting 1959 and I would like to be sure the info matches.
thanks
Bob (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
Bob,
George can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the "Tabellenbuch" is the Technical Data Book. It supplies charts of info regarding fluid capacities, torque specifications, and other measurements. Not a shop manual, but a reference manual.
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
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Hey Rodd,
Thanks for that info.
I asked because my Service manual 1959- (BBB) says that the timing should be 2 + 2 ATDC at idle, with vacuum and no load. It states because it is a retard system there should be NO vacuum at idle and as such the timing should be adjusted only at IDLE.
I must admit the info difference provides small variances but they could translate into performance problems in the car.
These books should have the same info, given they are produced by MB.
regards
Bob (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
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Bisbane Bob,
I have the Service Manual starting Aug of 1959 .
Mine states the same specs [ 2+2 ATDC at idle with vac, no load]
so, this may be the same book...
This equates to 2 to 4 degrees ATDC with vac retard.
You have to have vac at idle for the vac element to bring it to retarded ATDC . So, the throttle has to be completely closed [ full vac.] Once the throttle is opened , vac collapses and ignition immediately goes advanced . A quick test for the system is to pull the dist. vac line while at idle. This allows NO vac to the distributor and the timing advances due to NO retard, so you should see the RPMs immediately increase. That verifies the vac diaphragm is doing its job.
The timing at 30 degrees is set first and then you bring the retard into spec by adjusting the retard vac diaphragm rod length at idle, no load,full vac.
The reason for doing this is that the retard rod adjuster will not change the 30 degree setting ..it only changes the amount the retard will bring the timing into the ATDC range...
I personally cheat a little on this low end timing and set it at TDC. I prefer a higher than spec idle as I have stick shifts and I like to run slightly rich...
Does your book also have the # 4 and 5 footnotes on this ?
Tnx
Arthur
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I have read those specs from that book and assumed that the idle was 2 deg ADTC +/- 2 degrees, therefore allowing a setting of anywhere between 0deg and 4deg ATDC........whichever delivers your required idle !!
I need to check mine again soon so I'd like if someone clarified this !
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor
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The picture of the distributor on Ebay (posted by A Dalton) is in "good working order" Note that the shaft into the drive is all rusty and the o-ring seal is missing.....
Or am I missing something here?
Note too that the distributor body is very, very similiar to the ones used by BMW (theres a surprise)
Malc
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Hey Arthur,
Yes it is the same book and has all the notes.
Thanks for explaining the way to do correct timing adjustment.
I was just doing the timing at idle and set it at 4 degrees ATDC.
I didn't read it as 2 +/- 2 but as it says, 2 + 2, don't know why they didn't just say 4 degrees and be done with it. I suppose that is very specific where a range of 2-4 is more achieveable.
Arthur how do you adjust the vacuum rod in the distributor at idle if the distributor cap is on?
I thought it was done from the inside?
I can't go out and look because my car is in having the rear axle rubbers and bearings replaced. It will be back maybe next, just before the weekend.
Bob (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
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Bob et al.,
Rodd is correct, the "Tabellenbuch" is the Technical Data Book, 1969 edition. The BBB I have gives the same specs, it's the 1971 edition, or thereabouts.
To adjust the vacuum rod, the distributor cap has to come off. Someone who's done it few times might be able to make the adjustment with the distributor on the engine, but for me doing it the first and only time, taking the distributor off and taking the vacuum capsule off the distributor was easiest. I think I turned the shaft 1 or 2 turns and got the 1 degree change I was looking for, but it might take a little trial and error. Note/mark the distributor body orientation each time you pull it out so you can get it back more-or-less in the right position.
George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual
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quote:
Arthur how do you adjust the vacuum rod in the distributor at idle if the distributor cap is on?
I thought it was done from the inside?
........yeah I think you need switch the motor off and remove the actual vacuum unit from the dizzie and then adjust the rod. A bit trial and error by the sounds of it !
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor
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My understanding of 2 +2 ATDC is that they allow anywhere from 2 ATDC to 4 ATDC.
If they were to allow you +/- 2 from 2 ATDC , they would allow from zero [ TDC] to 4 ATDC.
Some of the vac retards have an outside port/screw to adjust the vac amount...
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Remember how I said I set the distributor to give a combined total of 30 degrees? More vacuum movement will equal more total movement since the two function seperately yet give a total amount.
Where you set the idle timing has everything to do with your total advance number. If you need more retard at idle and still want to maintain 30 degrees at 3,000 RPM, you will need to move the pull rod to compensate.
Which I think is what everyone is saying.
Daniel G Caron
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<<<Which I think is what everyone is saying.>>
Exactly..
It is two systems [vac activated and centrifical weight/rpm activated]combined...
So , at idle ,the weights have not started to move yet , but the engine vac is pulling the dist to full retard at idle .
So , the TOTAL advance is the degrees from total retard to total mechanical advance settings.
The great thing about this retard system [ over a vac advance system], is the fact that as soon as one hits the throttle [opening the plate and collapsing the vac], the engine gets immediate advance.
So, you can have a ATDC idle setting without lossing power at the lower rpm ranges.
One of the reasons that it is so important to have the throttle plate completely closed at idle, aside from the fact the the FI pump requires this for setting idle a/f mix, is that the vac hose port is behind the throttle plate and that is when the vac to dist. is max. If the throttle plate is not seating properly it not only effects the a/f mix, but also the amount of timing retard ...
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That is basically correct.
The vacuum required to move the advance plate is less than you might think and it starts to move at around 5'' of vacuum. Most are on full by 11 to 13'' so the throttle plate can be opened a small amount and still work.( The average engine will produce at least 15'' or more at idle if everything is in good shape - some produce 19'' or more) The reason I say this is beacuse there are times where you won't get enough air into the engine with the air adjustment screw alone. This is a case of rich running and is not right but it's sometimes the only way to get any kind of an idle. The idle speed will likely be too high but at least the car will drive. You will be forced to open the throttle plate a bit to lean out the mixture and retard the timing to get the idle speed down. Not good but that's the quick choices.
The mechanical portion starts right at or near idle speed. This varies from unit to unit but most start together and the vacuum portion is graduated so it doesn't happen all at once. The mechanical takes longer to top out at around 2,500 RPM on most cars. Some distributors have two curves and another starts above 4,500 RPM ( 450 SL's have this ) These units have two different sized fly weights to give you two seperate curves. It's a combination of flyweight size and spring tension that gives you your advance curve - the springs time when it starts and the weights determine how fast they open ( the spring tension controls this as well to some degree )
Some cars have both vacuum advance and retard controlled by engine temps and other possible inputs. The distributor will advance when cold, retard when hot and advance again if too hot. All these things can be put into the system to deliver the maximum in performance and emission controls.
Just try to make it all work after 20 years of non function .......
Daniel G Caron
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True..
That is why it is so important to use a vac gauge when setting things up , specially a/f mix..
side note that slightly pertains here ... if one does have a healthy engine capable of good vac, the air bleed screw should be quite capable of leaning out the idle to 3.5/4.5 at proper rpms without opening the plate..
[ assuming the screw port and lead-in hose are not plugged with crap, which I have seen]
... if this "can't lean out" w/bleed screw/ pump detent adjuster combo condition does come up, one place to look is at the barometric compensator at the top of the pump.
They wear with age and the pin then protrudes less than spec, causing the entire range of the pump to be rich biased, no matter what you do.. pretty common complaint on 113s. This is suspect when one turns the rear pump adjuster to the lean point of no longer feeling the detents/clicks of the screw... you are maxed and still rich..
The compensator can be turned in to lean out the entire range out, but care is needed here not to go too far..
If you adjust this correctly, you can then bring the rear fuel adjuster back to click status base line and get the correct idle and CO with the bleed screw.
This is tricky work and should be done w/only slight adjustment at a time and preferably w/gas analyzer
Excuse getting off the ignition subject here a little, but this does fit into the equation and hopefully will help in undestanding more
.. .. it all makes sense..really..
For those interested in a good Frank Mallory/Tom Sheppard article on these FI systems workings, , the March '93 issue of Mercedes Collector has a this info in it.
You can get it and other back issues for $10 , ea. . if still available
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I did play with the barometric adjuster by removing shims, I leaned out the mixture over the entire range. It takes very litte: .003 inch of shim makes a considerable difference.
1969 280SL,Signal Red, A/T, P/S, A/C, Both tops, 3.27 axle. Retired engr. West Seattle, WA
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So assuming you can achieve 30deg at 3000RPM, whats next ?
I mean I assume the 2deg ATDC + 2 deg is a variable to allow you to get a clean idle with correct emmissions, i.e it doesn't really matter where its at once you are happy with it ?
What would the effect of over advanced ignition at idle be, assuming you still have 30deg @ 3k and correct idle speed ??
quote:
Some of the vac retards have an outside port/screw to adjust the vac amount...
.......where is this. I have seen that 13/14mm end piece but I assume it is for dissembley rather than rod adjustment ?
I recall some of the Italian cars, with Ducelier dizzies, have a very fine threaded adjustment wheel for triiming the dwell and some also have one for adjusting vacuum. I have never seen anything like this on a 113!!
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor
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Hey Arthur,
That info about the barometric compensator is very relevant. I have never seen any other discussion on richness of air/fuel mix mention it.
I will go to the wreckers tomorrow morning on a self education excursion. I was there last week and saw a car with an 051 distributor on it.
cheers
Bob (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
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The barometric compensator adjustment is well know to me but I never said anything about it for fear of everyone going out and playing around with thiers and making things worse. Some things are best left to rebuilders.
You can do a certain amount of adjustment on this but as you say it's tricky and you can go too far and damage your engine very quickly.
The distributor has no external adjustments. There's a cap on the end of the vacuum control but it needs to be on there and tight. If it's loose or missing you will have a vacuum leak and no advanc control. There's a screw unde the cap but I never open this up or touch it. This is pre set at the factory and needs no adjustment - it either works or it doesn't.
Total advance is one thing but how smoothly the dvance curve moves upwards is even more important. It should move in a nice progressive pattern without and flat spots. This is nearly impossible to determine under running conditions with a timing light.
Daniel G Caron
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The outside adjustment on the vac box is for the start of the vac range movement .
Although we never see these specs in the US version manuals , I
was lucky enough to get this info for Euro Versions from Germany through Achim of this group. [ Many Tnx on that ,A]
I finally got the specs translated with his help and a fellow that works for me.... I have alway been interested in seeing if there were different spec recommends on Euro versions, mainly due to the difference in the cam and timing bearing plate not seen on US distributors ...anyway,
The adjuster specs for this screw are vac movement/start at approx 100 mm/Hg and full range/end at 300 mm/Hg.
This equates to aprox 4"/Hg and 12"/Hg , respectfully, so Dan C. has it about right . This adjustment is far beyond running parameters on the retard system, but more important on a vac advance system...
One could use the end spec to tweak the final +2 degree tolerence , but not neccessary and , as D.C. states , better left alone if no one has fooled w/it...
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More info
http://www.slmarket.com/fuel.htm
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The bosch number on my ignition distributor single points is 0231 185 009 and the condenson is 237330318 any ideas which car this came out of and how does it compare to an 051 distributor. Alumminun disrtibutor.
Bob Geco
1968 280SL
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Hi Bob: I got that all sorted out: The Bosch p/n 0 231 185 009 Distributor (MB 002 158 3801) replaces the Bosch p/n 0 231 116 051. The replacement has an aluminum housing and a fixed (not adjustable) Vacuum retard. The condenser p/n is Bosch 1 237 330 318 and it is very expensive. It has the green wire attached to it. The points p/n is Bosch 1 237 013 112. If you have any questions call 888 667-1042 that's Bosch parts look-up. The alu distributor is still available from MB at $1,640.00 The old iron one is no longer available from the dealers as far as I've been told. But it's better IMHO.
1969 280SL,Signal Red, A/T, P/S, A/C, Both tops, 3.27 axle. Retired engr. West Seattle, WA
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Hello Bob,
The "009" aluminum distributor was one of the correct replacement distributors for the "051" and the "062" at sometime. Since then several other numbers have replaced it. My 1972 "Technical Data Booklet" still shows the "051 as the only distributor number for the 280-SL up until this time. However I have a Bosch catalog which lists the "062" in the latest 280-SL engines and a "067" as its correct replacement. I would guess the "009" aluminum distributor came next? It seems many other 280-SLs now have this distributor installed.
These different distributors may require different combinations of points and condensors than supplied with in the original "051" distributor! Keep recordes or samples so you do not get the wrong parts.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Hi Bob: with a magnifying glass you can see the Bosch part number on all the consumable parts: On the cap it's on the outside, on the rotor it's on the bottom, on the condenser on the top.
1969 280SL,Signal Red, Retired engineer, West- Seattle, WA
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Thanks to DanC, I switched out this 011 aluminum distributor for an 051. The performance curve is definitely improved and I'm curious as to whether anyone else has had this distributor on their car. We're talking about a 127 engine (230SL).
Mark in KS
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) Distributor3.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/Mark%20in%20KS/20041026172926_Distributor3.jpg)
75.31 KB
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark in KS
The performance curve is definitely improved and I'm curious as to whether anyone else has had this distributor on their car. We're talking about a 127 engine (230SL).
Has anyone else had which distributor in their 230 SL? The 011 or the 051? The 230 SL should have an 051 distributor.
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
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Rodd, I think there were five different types for the 230SL.
IFUR.6 0.231.116 046
IFUR.6 0.231.116 047
IFUR.6 0.231.116 050
IFUR.6 0.231.116 051
and the earliest (and rarest I understand):
VJUR.6.BR49T which I have in my 1963.
Fortunately it has never given me any trouble.
James
63 230SL
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I got an education on early Bosch distributors and the 051 distributor and how it works and what goes wrong. This is a learning curve for me I even learned that the distributor is cast iron and black with the bosch logo on the side.
Now perhaps I can understand some of these post.
Bob Geco
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quote:
Originally posted by J. Huber
Rodd, I think there were five different types for the 230SL.
IFUR.6 0.231.116 046 230/second version - vac advance
IFUR.6 0.231.116 047 230/third version - vac retard
IFUR.6 0.231.116 050 230/second version -vac advance
IFUR.6 0.231.116 051 230/forth version,250/first version -vac retard
and the earliest (and rarest I understand):
VJUR.6.BR49T which I have in my 1963. -230/ First version-vac advance
Fortunately it has never given me any trouble.
James
63 230SL
James
I used your chart to add the different versions and the advance/retard systems used.
Tnx
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No problem A.D.
Your enhanced version sheds important light on the changes as they occurred. Good job.
James
63 230SL
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I need some help. I am reto fitting a 051 bosch distributor back into my 1968 280SL. I called the Bosch hot line to ask if they had a parts break down of this distributor so I can see what parts will be needed to do the conversion. Some of the parts like the hex key bolts and distributor collar are needed.
If anyone has this information and can make me a copy I would very much appreciate it.
Thank You
Bob Geco
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While at the Tech Session last month, Pete Lesler pointed out that I have the same aluminum distributor in my 1966 230SL as he does, one that he says uses the same points as a Mercedes V8 engine. Well, I decided today to buy a new cap, rotor, and points just for "safety", and thought I'd better find out what distributor I actually have. I expected to find the "009", but didn't. My distributor part number is 0 231 185 008! (Or, my eyesight is much worse than I thought...)
I have searched all over the forum, and the web in general, for this part number, and can't find it anywhere. Has anyone ever seen/heard of an "008" distributor? (If so, do you happen to have a part number for the points?) Thanks!
-David Pease
'66 French 230SL
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MASHINTER: “I tell clients to add a little 2 stroke oil (outboard motor type oil) to their gas every third or fourth tank full. This is preferable to automatic transmission fluid [recommended elsewhere] as it is made to be burned as it lubricates. Fuel line cleaners create more debris than they can remove.”
Are you guys adding 2 stoke oil to your gas fills?
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Never heard of that. Nor do I believe much in any additive. I think using the best "petrol" you can is the way to go for our cars.
James
63 230SL
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Hi, David,
quote:
My distributor part number is 0 231 185 008!
0 231 185 008 superceded 0 231 116 049 which is a distributor for a 220 SEb, still a vacuum advance distributor with a centrifugal advance curve slightly different from the 230 SL version 2 distributor 0 231 116 046.
Does not answer your question but...
BTW what is your engine number?
naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
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Hi, Naj,
Thanks! At least I know I'm not delusional (or the British term I love, "mental"). Armed with that info, maybe I'll be able to find the correct points part number.
My engine number (original) is 127981-12-003868. (Seems a pretty low engine number for chassis number 015461. Perhaps there were relatively few automatics made by early '66?)
-David Pease
'66 French 230SL
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Hi, David,
quote:
Perhaps there were relatively few automatics made by early '66?
Yes, I would agree.
The change over to vac retard for manual engines was 010786 while for autos it was 2991.
quote:
My engine number (original) is 127981-12-003868
Going by the above numbers, should you not have a vac retard distributor or do you have the correct vac advance throttle body?
naj
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Hello,
I'm new to the list and wanted to say thank you much for the good help available here. I gave my 71 280SL to a Mercedes "expert" here in Western Washington to do an oil change, and to deal with heavy pinging on any kind of acceleration. Well, he left out the upper filter element seal (the "garden hose" seal) and the car still pings badly. Time to do it myself. The list educated me about the often missing seals for the oil filter and also how the distributor advance system works. I purchased the filter seals from my Mercedes dealer and my distributor is on its way to Dan Caron for overhaul. Couldn't have done it without you folks. I've attached a scan of the wiring schematic for the distributor retard (for my car) relay box that helped to analyse my ignition problems. If I've made any mistakes in the schematic, please let me know. Apologies if I posted this in the wrong place.
Thanks,
Will N. Stevenson
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) 1971_280SL_RelayBox.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/WillS/2005830134019_1971_280SL_RelayBox.jpg)
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Naj,
My car runs beautifully, so I can only guess that it is set up correctly. Still, if you can tell me how to check which throttle body setup I have, I'd appreciate it.
-David Pease
'66 French 230SL
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Hi, David,
On the vac advance, the vac pick-up on the throttle body is in front of the throttle valve (air filter side) and there is zero vac at idling (throttle valve fully closed). Its also located on top of the body, (see picture)
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) 230_3.JPG (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/naj/200583113163_230_3.JPG)
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On the vac retard, there is high vac reading at idle and the pick-up is almost under and to the right of the valve body.
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) 067.JPG (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/naj/2005831132315_067.JPG)
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Ignorance is bliss :?:
naj
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Nice pictures Naj. You might want to keep the second one on hand when/if anyone wonders where the VIN number is stamped - it shows it pretty clearly...
James
63 230SL
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Hmmm, James,
The picture was taken for the Vin but served a different purpose today. :D
naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
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Glad you are one step ahead of me Naj...
I just looked at my throttle body and it resembles your first picture. Although mine has a clear plastic tube (about 1/8) that runs over to distributor. Sound right for an early dist? And am I right mine is an advance type?
James
63 230SL
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Hi, Naj,
My throttle body looks just like photo number 1 (vacuum advance) except:
- the raised casting where the hose is connected on your photo is just a solid piece on mine - there's nothing to connect a hose to or for vacuum to pass through (so to speak)
- my vacuum hose connects on the very bottom of the throttle body, two ribs further aft (that is, even with rib number 2 instead of number 4, if you think of the raised lines in the casting as ribs)
On another subject, if this is a photo of a 230SL, I wouldn't expect to see that water-heated ring between the throttle body and the air intake hose - we heard at Blacklick that those were only standard on 280SLs.
Thanks again for the help (and yes, ignorance can be bliss),
-David Pease
'66 French 230SL
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Hi, James,
quote:
Although mine has a clear plastic tube (about 1/8) that runs over to distributor. Sound right for an early dist? And am I right mine is an advance type?
Yes, most engines have the white plastic tube running from the throttle body to dist. with just a small rubber bit at the throttle body end to connect up.
BTW, is yours an auto?
Hi, David,
quote:
I wouldn't expect to see that water-heated ring between the throttle body and the air intake hose
Don't know when the heater rings came in on the throttle body. My 230 does not have it.
naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
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my early 250sl has the heater ring
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
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My early 250 does as well
Richard
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Yes Naj. Auto. It has the plastic tubing except for maybe 3 inches of original weaved hose.
James
63 230SL
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It may interest everyone to know that there were at least 5 different intake manifolds used on 113 cars, 3 or 4 different throttle valves and about 5 or 6 different distributors.
Dan Caron's
SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
slbarn.mbz.org
1 877 661 6061