Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: bpossel on December 02, 2004, 05:02:11
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There have been many posts on oil changes and washers needed for the filter canister, but I still have a couple of questions.... I want to do this right!
1. What is the larger copper washer (see attached picture supplied from an earlier post) used for? Also, there is no mention of its purpose (that I can find).
2. In one of the posts, there is mention of a washer that looks like a small piece of garden hose. Is this needed? Where does it sit in the filter? If needed, anyone know why the filter doesnt come with this???
Thanks!
Bob
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bpossel
Memphis, TN.
1971 280SL
1997 E320
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Bob,
The large copper washer is for the oil pan drain plug.
The smaller copper washer is for the heat exchanger (oil cooler) on the 250sl and 230sl if fitted. The steel washer is for the bolt of the filter cannister.
There are three other seals that do not need changing every filter change but do deteriorate with time and need to be changed. The garden hose type seal (item 2 in picture - unfortunately the other two seals not on picture) fits on the filter head and seals the top of the oil filter element to the head (If its not there, you may not be getting 100% filteration). The donut looking seal fits at the bottom of the filter cannister. On inspection, this one feels very hard and may have a 'fried' look. The last one is in the bolt hole of the cannister. If nothing else, it holds the bolt in the bowl when you undo it and keeps the hot oil from burning up your hands.
http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/cees%20klumper/200465163216_DSC01131.JPG
Hope this helps
naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
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Hello Naj,
Thanks for your reply!
My current setup doesnt have the "hose type" washer. I will try to locate this today...
I still have a question on the larger copper washer. My filter kit came with 2 small copper washers, 1 large copper washer (this is the one I am questioning), 1 steel type washer and the rubber washer for the filter canister. The 2 smaller copper washers fit perfectly for the oil cooler and engine drain plug.
What is the larger washer for? It is a "ring, or round type", not a flat washer like the other 2 copper washers.
Comments? My car is a '71 280sl.
Thanks!
Bob
bpossel
Memphis, TN.
1971 280SL
1997 E320
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Hi, Bob,
Seems to me like the later 280s (70/71) may have a small drain plug.
Earlier cars have a big drain plug (maybe 24mm dia.) which is undone either with a 17mm spanner or 14mm allen hex, and they use the big round profile copper sealing washer.
naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
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Part number for
top sealing ring, A000 184 33 80, not expensive but essential to your cars oil filtering.
bolt seal A000 184 32 80
donut type seal A000 184 17 80
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
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Bob,
In your picture:
- The large rubber gasket goes in the top of the filter canister (make sure the old one is removed as using two can crack the canister).
- The small steel looking one on the upper left goes with the long bolt that holds the filter canister on.
- The small copper looking one in the upper middle is probably for the oil cooler drain (if engine is so equipped).
- The larger copper looking one on the upper right is for the main oil pan drain plug. This should have a round cross-section as it is a "crush washer". These are not reuseable, so always use a fresh one.
The "garden hose" style gasket (not washer) is made of rubber and is essential to oil filtering. It should be replaced when hardened by age. The gaskets in the bottom of the filter canister are rubber as well and should be replaced when hardened by age.
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
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UPDATE: I checked for this gasket again (using more light...), I found it. So my car did still have it! I pulled it off and compared it to the new one that I purchased. The old one was indeed hard and approx. 30% smaller. Glad I still had mine in place, but it was definitely in need of replacement!
Bob
It appears that my car has not had the "garden style" gasket for as long as I have owned it. I wonder how long its been missing??? Anyway, ordered this small gasket today and will install and replace oil asap. I wonder how much damage, if any, this caused?
Thanks all!
Bob
bpossel
Memphis, TN.
1971 280SL
1997 E320
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Bob - as indicated, the common opinion seems to be that the garden-hose style seal is required to ensure that the oil is indeed properly filtered. Nevertheless, there have been many reports of owners like you, discovering that the seal was missing for longer periods of time. This may have been caused by the old one falling off (although they are usually on pretty tight) when changing the oil and filter, without the mechanic noticing this. The fact that filter kits usually don't come with this seal doesn't help.
Now for the question of exactly what influence this seal does or doesn't have, I would like to hear some arguments. Does anyone know whether the oil comes into the filter from the outside or the inside, and whether it comes in from the top or from the bottom? Is there so much pressure inside the canister that, if the seal is missing, (a lot of) the oil is likely to pass around the filter, directly through the space between the top of the filter and the bottom of the canister holder (the space that the seal fills)?
If the usual engine diagnostics (compression, leakdown, oil pressure) don't reveal any real problems, I would not wrory about it. Just fit the seal (I buy 5 at a time and replace them maybe every 4 oil changes) and note whether there seems to be an influence on the oil pressure.
Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
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<Now for the question of exactly what influence this seal does or doesn't have, I would like to hear some arguments. Does anyone know whether the oil comes into the filter from the outside or the inside, and whether it comes in from the top or from the bottom? Is there so much pressure inside the canister that, if the seal is missing, (a lot of) the oil is likely to pass around the filter, directly through the space between the top of the filter and the bottom of the canister holder (the space that the seal fills)?>
Cees, for a cross-sectional drawing of the oil filter with oil flow description (outside to inside, radially) see BBB Starting 1968 page 18-3/1. Yes, if the sealing ring (part 6 in the drawing) is missing, the filter element is loose and oil can bypass it.
Klaus
1969 280 SL
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Hello Bob,
Naj is correct here at some point the later six cylinder Mercedes engines (after W113) had an oil pan with a small drain plug which used the small copper seal. The bolt heads are 13mm on this latest version as opposed to the 17mm head and the 14mm allen socket used on the earlier oil drain plugs.
Another interesting note is that the later version oil pans had a 1/2 liter higher oil capacity. The oil pump had a rubber sleeve attached to its pickup to accomodate the deeper pan. These higher capacity pans are easily recognized by there ribbed bottoms.
Page 18-6/1 of the BBB has a nice description with part numbers.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Looks like the oil flow is from the outside of the filter, to inside of filter, then back to engine.
See attached pic.
Bob
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bpossel
Memphis, TN.
1971 280SL
1997 E320
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Hi Joe,
Since the later style injection pumps were fed oil automatically by the engine oil, is it then possible that the add'l 1/2 liter of oil was to accomodate for the injection pump? It seems to me that some amount of oil actually resides in the lower portion of the pump at all times. Obviously, this is being refreshed with new oil as the engine is running... Is this correct?
Bob
quote:
Originally posted by ja17
Hello Bob,
Naj is correct here at some point the later six cylinder Mercedes engines (after W113) had an oil pan with a small drain plug which used the small copper seal. The bolt heads are 13mm on this latest version as opposed to the 17mm head and the 14mm allen socket used on the earlier oil drain plugs.
Another interesting note is that the later version oil pans had a 1/2 liter higher oil capacity. The oil pump had a rubber sleeve attached to its pickup to accomodate the deeper pan. These higher capacity pans are easily recognized by there ribbed bottoms.
Page 18-6/1 of the BBB has a nice description with part numbers.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
bpossel
Memphis, TN.
1971 280SL
1997 E320
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I've had this same frustration with the various seals used on the oil filter...the donut one I bought from the dealer won't stay in place on the bottom of the filter shell, and I believe it shifted the last time I changed my oil. I never had the "garden hose" style ring at the top.
Question: Would you guys consider it a bad thing if an adaptor were made to allow use of a conventional screw-on filter, preferably at an angle more vertical to ease replacement? I'm still compiling a list of products to make for the SLs, and when I saw this post I was reminded of how much I hate changing filters on these cars....
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quote:
Originally posted by Joe Bango
I've had this same frustration with the various seals used on the oil filter...the donut one I bought from the dealer won't stay in place on the bottom of the filter shell, and I believe it shifted the last time I changed my oil. I never had the "garden hose" style ring at the top.
Question: Would you guys consider it a bad thing if an adaptor were made to allow use of a conventional screw-on filter, preferably at an angle more vertical to ease replacement? I'm still compiling a list of products to make for the SLs, and when I saw this post I was reminded of how much I hate changing filters on these cars....
About half of the old MBs I've had did not have the upper rubber seal(about 1/2" high). -i.e. limited filtration!
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Hey Joe Bango,
The earlier Pagodas (230's and 250's) had vertically mounted oil filter housings.
They are probably the same unit with a different engine connection/ mount plate.
Maybe you could adapt an older style Genuine MB oil filter housing on your car?
The donut washer actually fits under a recess in the cover. It does not just sit there.
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
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Hello Bob,
Yes the later injection pumps are fed oil from the engine. Very little oil remains in the injection pump after the engine is switched off since it drains into the engine oil pan. Only the later replacement high capacity lower oil pan (introduced after the W113 cars but can be retrofit) will increase the oil capacity of the engine (these pans are ribbed
on the bottom). The 230-SL and 250-SL engines had smaller lower oil pans than the 280-SL so they did hold a little less oil. If the car was equiped with an oil cooler (standard on the 250 and 280 but optional on the 230-SL) this would increase the capacity a little on the 230-SL.
NAJ, yes a later oil pan did have a 13mm drain plug and used the small solid copper seal. These pans may have came out after W113 production and may be standard replacement parts for the 280-SL's, explaining the confusion.
Also Bob, yes the oil does flow from the ouside into the filter.I Ocassionally check the folds of the filter paper to see what it is catching. The filter unit shown in your post is actually a later configuration (after the W113 engines). Mercedes must have realized the problems with the separate seals in the earlier units. The new design pictured in the post has new filter seals built in every new filter so they are automatically replaced at every filter change! this filter assembly design was used in the V-8 engines and the M110 twincam engines which followed the M130 (W113) engines. Notice the spring at the bottom of the canister to hold the filter tight on this version.
Joe Bango,
It sounds like you may be missing the stamped sheet metal retainer which holds your lower rubber seal in place in the filter bottom!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Reading Joe Alexander's comment, I got tempted to cut open an oil filter element to see what was in the folds.
This one is a fine mesh 'running in' filter element I used after head gasket change.
Quite a lot of sediment collected 8)
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naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
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Originally posted by hands_aus
Part number for ... bolt seal A000 184 32 80
Had a difficult time locating this seal ring in the 230SL oil filter housing but with the help of Joe Alexander, who told me:
The small seal in question #40 is difficult to locate. It is not a critical seal but you may want to change it from time to time. In the bottom of the filter canister a "hat shaped" sheet metal plate holds seal (#39) in place and it also has the little (#40) seal nested inside of the "hat". The bolt runs through the plate and seals., I finally got it.
I combined all the information from the different posts in this picture and added some part numbers, perhaps it is helpful for others with similar "vision" problems.
Alfred
1966 blue 230SL automatic
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Very Nice Al! And timely too -- I just changed my oil and filter this afternoon! All seals healthy and accounted for.
James
63 230SL
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Number 6 on the assembly drawing is the 1/2" high-about 3/4" dia. rubber seal that fits over the stub out of the block that is usually missing on penultimate MBs-no? When the filter bolt is loosened and the filter holding can is dropped down, this seal falls into the oil collector unseen by the oil changer. Voila, no filtration on assembly and running.
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Yes, #6 in the cut-away drawing is #37 in the exploded view drawing and is often missing.
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
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Happy New Year (in Germany anyway - North America still having it all to look forward to)
At the risk of appearing to be someone who clearly lacks a parts list for this car, would it be possible for a generous sole to post the complete set of part numbers required to allow beginers like me to purchase the correct seals, gaskets and parts for a full oil filter change? This could then be posted directly into the tech site.
From Bob Smith's post (for which I am very grateful - thank you) we already have the following:
top sealing ring, A000 184 33 80, not expensive but essential to your cars oil filtering.
bolt seal A000 184 32 80
donut type seal A000 184 17 80
Can someone add to this to make the package complete thus allowing newbies to go direct to their local MB dealer and pass over a list of parts to order?
Thanks,
JH
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Rodd, I think 37 and 6 are two very different seals. The oil filter total system for various MB was different. If the 1/2" high seal(no. 6) is missing on those requiring it, there is limited filtration. Happy New Year.
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Hello,
Actually #37 and #6 are the same seal. The drawing of #37 is not to scale so it does not look like the actual part. All the W113 engines used the same oil filter and seals. The 280SLs oil filter canister was mounted at an angle but all the internals were the same. An additional solid copper o ring seal is in the filter kit for the oil cooler drain on the 280SL.
Part #37, #39, and #40 would have to be ordered separately since they are not included in the oil filter kit. These seals do not have to be changed at every oil change however often times they are missing, especially the top seal. If they are hard or cracked they should be changed.
See Alfred's diagram (red part numbers).
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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James, I think everything you would need are right in Alfred's post.
And as an aside -- when I first checked to see if my number 6 (37) was in place several years back, I found it was. I decided to replace it -- the old one was very firmly in place and the new one went on rather snug. I only mention this to say that, in my case, its not like the thing would easily fall out. I suppose over time it could deteriorate though and others may be different.
James
63 230SL
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Hey Guys, Contrast a 'Spin on' filter with the MB 'Cartridge' design. The Spin on is one piece with 2 seal points- center thread seal and outer rubber ring seal. Simple, 3/4 turn seal, rarely leaks, no critical tolerances, cheap to make. The MB cartridge design has 10 or so pieces, very tolerance critical, replacement filter critical, etc. What washer, o-ring, filter, diaphram, etc. goes where? Leaks?? German engineering???? Which is better?
The MB 180, 190, 200, 220, 230, 250, 280, etc. in-line engines had many oil filter housing and cartridge filter designs. I think(?) some of the block mountings are interchangeable. Other considerations are oil cooler connections, full/partial flow, relief valve, oil pressure tap, etc. The various BBBs show at least 4 different designs. One of my favorites is the accordian diaphram on the top! All these designs are tolerance, spacing critical. Two of the three inch diameter o-rings in the top groove, wrong filter, wrong seal(?), clogged relief valve, etc and filtration is breeched.
My guess is that along about revision 'xyz' the oil filter engineer stuck a 1/2" washer on the stub to take up any slack to seal the filter for full flow.
Some of the MB filters came with 5 or so washers, seals, o-rings, etc. Some filters had half o-rings top and bottom, as I remember.
We all want our filters to filter and protect the engine. The 113's had various designs. So, the bottom line is - Make sure you have the right washer, o-ring, seal, etc. combo, so the top and bottom of the filter is sealed and the oil goes thru the filter and not the bypass.
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Hello,
The bottom line here is all the seals and oil filters are the same on all W113 engines. The later engines used one additional metal seal for the oil cooler. If you get a factory like filter kit it will come with some but not all the seals. Seals #37, #39, #40 are not usually replaced at every oil change and are not in the filter kit, but they must be inspected so have some on hand they are only a few bucks. Alfred has shown what comes in the basic filter kit (blue numbers). Order the red numbered seals to have on hand.
Yes, glennard there are many filter housing designs on these engines. In fact the early cars like the 170s and 300SLs had only a fine screen and no filter at all! The early 190SLs and early ponton sedans (180,190,220) had a filter and a screen! ( I guess they just didn't trust a paper filter technology yet). The 300SL remained without a paper filter (just the fine screen through end of production in 1963! Around 1958 almost all the other Mercedes engines changed over to the all paper oil filter. This configuration of oil filter and seals remained the same on most Mercedes 4 and 6 cylinder sedans and SLs until around 1973 when Mercedes began incorporating all the rubber seals into the oil filter cartridges of the new engine designs.
These days they have even moved to spin on filters on some models.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Folks,
If during an oil change the upper filter seal 000-180-3380 is found missing, and needs to be ordered from MBZ, and waited for, and the car needs to be moved from it's location until the seal arrives, and hence the filter is replaced without the upper seal (this is a purely hypothetical situation, you realize :oops: ), can one remove the filter housing without draining all the oil? (just removing the filter housing to add the seal)
WAQAS in Austin, Texas
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I would think so. Just make sure you have an idea of how much oil you need to re-add to bring things up to level.
James
63 230SL
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Thanks for the lightning fast reply! Of course, I'd have to wait until Tuesday for the seal to arrive if this wasn't a completely hypothetical situation 8)
WAQAS in Austin, Texas
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quote:
Originally posted by waqas
Folks,
If during an oil change the upper filter seal 000-180-3380 is found missing, and needs to be ordered from MBZ, and waited for, and the car needs to be moved from it's location until the seal arrives, and hence the filter is replaced without the upper seal (this is a purely hypothetical situation, you realize :oops: ), can one remove the filter housing without draining all the oil? (just removing the filter housing to add the seal)
WAQAS in Austin, Texas
Wouldn't all the oil drain out when you unbolt the canister to put the seal in? I just changed my oil tonight, and #37,#39 and #40 were missing. But I had to put it back together because I gotta move my car around. Anyway, if I were to go in just to do those seals, Wont all the new oil drain out? or is it just the amount thats in the canister drain out? Thanks
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quote:
Originally posted by 717-113
Originally posted by waqas
.../...can one remove the filter housing without draining all the oil? (just removing the filter housing to add the seal)
Yes, certainly. The oil in the canister is the only you need to dispose of.
I said it before, I'll say it again: That garden hose seal is of utmost importance for the well being of your engine!!
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What is the corrrect cooper crush washer for the oil cooler on a 1968 280SL? Does it come in the kit or can they be ordered separdely?
Bob Geco
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You can reuse the old copper washers if you heat them red hot and quench them in water to re anneal them.
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How difficult is it to remove #40 rubber seal the square one a top the filter canister when it is off. I understand these get brittle with time. I have all new important seals for my oil filter canister to replace.
Are their any special instructions once the oil canister is off? are their any other parts I need to remove and take to the work bench that may have the seals I need to remove. I have a good set of long pick tools. I just would like to get this done and do it right the first time.
Joe if you get this message please give me some tips. I only got to go to one seminar of yours sorry I was not around for more, comes 2009 I will drag my self , hospital bed, wheel chair ,cruches. I will not miss another seminar.
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quote:
Originally posted by Bob G
How difficult is it to remove #40 rubber seal the square one a top the filter canister when it is off.
This seal is very easy to remove. Simply use the appropriate right-angled hook tool. Stab the seal, twist it out of the groove and then pull it out.
Replacing it is another story entirely. First time I did this it took me a half hour of sweat and frustration to replace, and a cold lager to calm me down afterwards. Basically, don't be in a hurry when you do it. These instructions will only make sense once you've taken out the old seal.
Procedure: twist the new seal and slide it into the cylindrical hole. Using a small flat screw-driver, gently start seating the seal from one side. Work your way around the entire inner circumference of the seal until it is seated without kinks. It will take a few attempts before you get it in right. And have a few cold ones around to calm you down as you hold back the expletives.
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Sorry to resurrect an old topic, but it is an important one so I thought it best to continue from here.
I am changing the oils filter and all seals.
The 'donut' seal at the bottom of the canister is quite hard, so I need to change it. Problem is, I can't get it out as the metal 'hat' described by Joe Alexander won't move. Is there an easy way to get this out?
Thanks
David
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I have done this for several friends (and my own first, of course) here in SoCal. I took a small punch and ground a small notch in one side (just up from the tip) (I would include a photo, but am traveling). Invert the canister, and insert the punch from the outside, so the tip makes contact with the metal piece holding the rubber donut in place. Just do some small taps to get started, and work your way around. You will probably deform the metal retainer, but this is easily knocked back into shape. You may have to give it some pretty good whacks to pop it free. The first time I did it, I had an old filter canister, and had to knock it pretty well, but it did come out. Same story for the other ones I have done or helped with. The last two, the rubber donut was so hard, it just broke apart into pieces.
To be clear, there are two seals at the bottom of the canister, a small one inside the metal hat, and the larger one around the bottom of the canister. Easiest to remove the metal hat as noted above, and change both seals.
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Jonny, thanks for that. I actually did start using a similar method last night involving trying to tap it out from the underside through the bolt hole using a flat head screwdriver. I started damaging the metal edge of the 'hat' so I stopped (as an aside, are these still available as replacements?)
Given that the donut seal was hard and brittle, I resorted to breaking it and pulling it out. This left the metal 'hat' in place, but without the seal, it left a gap under the rim of the 'hat' where I could get an old metal steak knife with a 90 degree bend in the end of the blade, under the rim and gradually pull it free. Provided you are OK to sacrifice the old donut seal (which you probably are if attempting this job), I would recommend this as the way to go if the 'hat' is stuck fast.
With the new small rubber washer seal that fits under the hat and seals around the bolt, I found that once in place under the hat, inserting the threaded bolt through it started shredding the edge of the rubber because it was such a good tight seal. If I was doing this again, I might push the bolt into the canister first, then push the small rubber washer on to the bolt, put the donut and metal hat on over that, and then use the filter to push that all down to the base of the canister.
Anyhow it all went back together and appears to be leak free. Will post photos later in case it helps others.
David
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Yes, you can do a bit of damage to the small metal hat, but it is relatively soft metal, and the damage you do inflict is not really critical, and the hat can be bent back into shape.
Cool tip about the alternate method.
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Hello Bob,
Naj is correct here at some point the later six cylinder Mercedes engines (after W113) had an oil pan with a small drain plug which used the small copper seal. The bolt heads are 13mm on this latest version as opposed to the 17mm head and the 14mm allen socket used on the earlier oil drain plugs.
Another interesting note is that the later version oil pans had a 1/2 liter higher oil capacity. The oil pump had a rubber sleeve attached to its pickup to accomodate the deeper pan. These higher capacity pans are easily recognized by there ribbed bottoms.
Page 18-6/1 of the BBB has a nice description with part numbers.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
The later oil pan holds more oil as you indicated but it also has a windage tray that helps to pull oil away from the spinning crank shaft. I used one on my own car plus a high volume oil pump. After more than ten years of driving the engine still has full oil pressure at hot idle.
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I'm having a problem trying to get the metal hat to stay in place at the bottom of the filter canister. The hat doesn't appear to be distorted nor does the aluminium canister appear to be worn. Not sure how I'm going to keep it in place. :-\
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Hello Dan,
I use an automatic center punch and snap a few punch marks around the hat metal. After that, the metal hat fits snugly in place.
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Does seal ring #34 007-603-018400 need to be replaced occasionally. If so do you simply put a spanner on and turn the bolt it off? Mine seems to leak a bit.
Thanks