Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: johnshenry on July 13, 2017, 01:25:59
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'69, 280SL Auto. Bought in 2010, gift to my wife for surviving 20 years of marriage to me. We put maybe 6k mi on it, and last year paid a seasoned Benz mechanic $5k to go over the drivetrain and mechanicals. Engine and subframe mounts, front seal, and other stuff. It was running wonderfully. Was.
A few weeks back, my wife was driving it behind me in my my '57 VW to a German car day event. I just happened to be looking in the rear view on the highway when I saw a puff of white smoke, then a huge cloud of white smoke that enveloped the car, She pulled it over quickly. It didn't seem overheated, but wouldn't turn over. Nothing leaking from it. Luckily we were 2 exits and 10 mins from our mechanic. A AAA call and flatbed ride away, and the keys were dropped in the slot and we went to the event in my trusty VW.
Call today from the shop, worst possible scenario. Engine blown, connecting rod broken on one cyl, ball bearings in the oil pan, time for a new engine they say. Quote is $18k-$20k, assuming full core charge returned.
Lots to think about.
So my analysis, given what I know I have in the car now, and what I *think* it is worth with a blown engine, and with a new one, is this:
Dump it with blown engine to what ever the market will pay. My guess is that I'll lose $10k-$15k, but will still have, of course the 7 years of enjoyment.
Have a new engine installed and I will have a 280 with a brandy new engine, worth more than it was before it imploded, and I can sell it, and probably break even (again, my guess). Or close. Or, keep it, have the (happy) wife keep driving it, and it will probably increase in value to some degree.
Simple math makes it a no brainer for me, but I want to get opinions here. And yes, I know this is over simplified and there are LOTS of other questions to be asked, not the least of which is what is the condition of the rest of the car. I will not divulge what I have in it at this point.
It was restored in the 80s, and presents very well. Near flawless paint. Interior I'd say is a 8.5/10, showing some sun fading but no real wear. Transmission leaks fluid but shifts well. We have the original hard top. Some rust staining showing underneath at seams/pinch welds but nothing else. Owner history since new is documented. Once owned by CEO of Staples.
So, the questions I have are:
What is a '69 280SL, solid body and usable tranny and other mechanicals, but with a blown engine, worth?
What is the ballpark range for a '69 280SL Auto, with a brand new engine installed by a highly competent Benz mechanic (trust me on that), that otherwise is a 8-9/10 car? Shop quoted $14k for the rebuilt engine by itself. Sound right?? Again, I know more details are needed, but I have been watching ads/sales over the last 5 or so years an have my opinions. Yours?? Recent sales?
Thanks in advance for any insights, can post other pics later.
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John,
Your car looks too nice to dump!
Without much of details known, I would go for a rebuild if I were you. $14K seem in the range of full rebuild.
Alternatively, you could find a decent 280SE engine to put it in while you take longer time/cheaper approach to overhaul of your engine.
If you decide not to partake in the overhaul, I am sure you would find several members interested in the car, as-is.
Just remember that once it is sold, sentimental value goes with it as well. That right there may convince you to keep it.
Good luck with whatever decision you make.
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$18-20k for the shop rebuild sounds way too high. You could instead buy Scott's car here for the motor:
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=26042.msg188322#msg188322
..and if you can pay my flights I'd love to drive it LA to Boston ;)
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The price of the rebuild sounds about right but bear in mind that if your block and/or crank are damaged they'll have no core value.
You've loved the car until now. Do you still love it and will you continue to love it for years to come? If so then have the engine built.
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call mike at metric motors. generic rebuilds are about 7K.
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My guess is that you will have over 12K in it with even with the generic Metric rebuild (short block). Add core charge (your old one is not usable), shipping, and lots of your mechanics labor. Still well worth the investment.
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Just in case you don't believe the others, my opinion is have the engine removed, and provided it isn't broken into little bits there are plenty of valuable bits--and ship it all to Metric Motors. Speak with Mike there in advance.
Your car sounds just great, and all it needs is a new power source.
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John,
Sorry to hear of your loss, but not the worst!
I am puzzled as to the "ball bearings" in the oil sump?
Where would they come from?
Was your wife driving very fast when it "destructed"?
I drove my 1968 280SL at 90mph and blew the head gasket, but nothing else was damaged. Just huge clouds of white smoke.
Rebuilt the top end and all was fine.
I would probably look around for a better shop for the work, the mechanic looked over all the mechanicals and found nothing wrong and charged $5k for it.
Perhaps Gernold Nisius(Maine) or Henry Magno(West Boston) would be a better bet for you.
Wiser to have the car in expert hands who know the older MB's.
And they can handle the Metric Motors rebuild path.
Besides, this is your gift to your wife for putting up with 25 years now with you, and not really a replacement. Cant replace the wife, right?
I most certainly wont with mine. Keep the gift going with a repair.
I just had the transmission(blew a hole in itself) and injection pump(leaked) replaced on my wife's everyday car. Yellow 2003 VW Beetle diesel with white flower wheels(hey it's what she wants).
Hope you feel encouraged to fix the 280SL.
Best,
Walter
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Thanks for the tips/encouragement. If I wasn't clear, the shop quoted me for a replacement/rebuilt engine, and cautioned me that I might not get all/some of the $2600 core (which is over and above the $18-20K quote) depending on the usability of the parts in the blown engine. They were not quoting rebuilding my engine, they don't do that level of work. I had looked at the Metric Motors site before, when I was concerned that the engine might not be recoverable. The site shows "LONGBLOCK: $8,550.00 EXCHANGE " for a 280SL engine. I had asked my shop (talking to the admin guy, not the mechanic yesterday) who would they get the new engine from and he wasn't sure but would get back to me.
Opinions on rough value of this car with a new engine? I haven't been watch ads recently. I guy in a town next to me just sold his for ~$75k but it VERY nice, fresh new interior, etc.
I think no matter what, I will drive down to the shop and talk with the mechanic in person in the next day or two.
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Thanks Walter for the advice. I too had wondered about the viability of the engine given that he had it in his shop and went over it recently, but for sure, you can't test for a weakened rod in a shop. The odometer shows 117k or so, so the engine had been well used. I don't doubt the skills of the mechanic, he has been working on Benzs' for over 30 years. He knows the old engines very well. However I will seek other opinions from other shops as well. I know Gernold also.
She was going 55-60 when the engine went. Said in the seconds leading up to it, heard a loud grinding, then a bang. Sure sounds like a rod.
I think I will explore the Metric Motors route since he was going to ship the engine anyway. I will call them to discuss as well.
John,
Sorry to hear of your loss, but not the worst!
I am puzzled as to the "ball bearings" in the oil sump?
Where would they come from?
Was your wife driving very fast when it "destructed"?
I drove my 1968 280SL at 90mph and blew the head gasket, but nothing else was damaged. Just huge clouds of white smoke.
Rebuilt the top end and all was fine.
I would probably look around for a better shop for the work, the mechanic looked over all the mechanicals and found nothing wrong and charged $5k for it.
Perhaps Gernold Nisius(Maine) or Henry Magno(West Boston) would be a better bet for you.
Wiser to have the car in expert hands who know the older MB's.
And they can handle the Metric Motors rebuild path.
Besides, this is your gift to your wife for putting up with 25 years now with you, and not really a replacement. Cant replace the wife, right?
I most certainly wont with mine. Keep the gift going with a repair.
I just had the transmission(blew a hole in itself) and injection pump(leaked) replaced on my wife's everyday car. Yellow 2003 VW Beetle diesel with white flower wheels(hey it's what she wants).
Hope you feel encouraged to fix the 280SL.
Best,
Walter
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You also may want to contact Jim Cosgrove at Oldtimer Restorations in Harvard, MA. He rebuilt the top end of my 280SL last year and it now runs like a top.
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A broken connecting rod will do a lot of damage such as bent crank and broken piston. The head may be OK and not need to be replaced with a general rebuild if needed. The problem with damage like this is all of the small shards of metal that goes through the whole engine. Most will get filtered out but some won't. Make sure you have the oil cooler and oil lines cleaned well if you decide to rebuild.
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$18-20k for the shop rebuild sounds way too high. You could instead buy Scott's car here for the motor:
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=26042.msg188322#msg188322
..and if you can pay my flights I'd love to drive it LA to Boston ;)
X2
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I'll make you a great deal on my 1970 280SE parts car w/ $8000 engine rebuild, $2000 injection pump and fuel pump,....
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Thats $18-20k for engine rebuild & detail or just engine rebuild? A good detail by someone who know what they are doing is in the neighborhood of $8k, which could be in addition to the $18-20k. I would definately ask more questions as to the definition of rebuild and what that includes.
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Did you take it to someone else and get a second opinion?
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Is it still available? I notice that the Craigslist ad is down. {Scoots car in CA that is.}
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Engine building isn't just a rebuild. There's pulling the engine and all of the other parts that go with it. If you want everything detailed, engine bay painted, ancillaries rebuilt, and no corners cut, it won't be cheap. It's a lot more work than some might believe and mid teens or more isn't out of line.
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I'll make you a great deal on my 1970 280SE parts car w/ $8000 engine rebuild, $2000 injection pump and fuel pump,....
Given Scott's reply it's still available. I really think this is your best solution at this time given the amounts being mentioned. Last price Scott was asking as I recall was $3,000 and for that you get lots more useable parts that you would be able to sell later and probably recoup most of your cost. So to a stingy Dutch accountant like me this seems like the proverbial 'no-brainer'.
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What are the differences between the 280SE engine and the 280SL??
Given Scott's reply it's still available. I really think this is your best solution at this time given the amounts being mentioned. Last price Scott was asking as I recall was $3,000 and for that you get lots more useable parts that you would be able to sell later and probably recoup most of your cost. So to a stingy Dutch accountant like me this seems like the proverbial 'no-brainer'.
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I sent Scott a PM. This might be a good option, thanks....
JH
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Car looks like a keeper. Crewe engines here in the UK do this work for less than 50% of what you have been quoted and offer a 1 year warranty. Not sure that helps, but possibly you might try and find an merc engine rebuilder. They are often more competitive price wise, and the work is faultless as its their core competency. Good Luck.
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Sorry just saw your response and yes that is obviously a very good option.
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Is it still available? I notice that the Craigslist ad is down. {Scoots car in CA that is.}
sorry about that, yes it's available. Updated link: https://losangeles.craigslist.org/sgv/cto/6202865411.html
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Practically, the only difference between the SE and SL engines is (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that the SE engine does not have the tachometer drive gear. But it has the slot for it, so that can be simply swapped over from your existing engine. The fuel injection pump is a bit different, but, again, you can swap the existing one, or stay with the current one if that's in better condition, I doubt you would notice much of a difference. The engine itself is identical AFAIK, reason that there are so many Pagodas with SE engines these days.
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.../...The engine itself is identical AFAIK.../...
Yes, there was a difference with camshafts in some cases...
Re: the things around the engine itself, the thermostat housing is different, and, important, the engine supports each side too.
Info on the supports, see here https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=11554.0 (https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=11554.0)
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Yes, there was a difference with camshafts in some cases...
I'm wondering about the differences between the Euro-spec and US-spec engines... On the importation documents for my 280SE I recall seeing stuff about tuning the car for US market...
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Re: Euro vs. US M130
On U.S. cars, the Mercedes 280SL’s M130 engine was basically the same as the one in the 280SE models, with 160 PS (118 kW) and 177 lb-ft (240 N-m) of torque (DIN; 180 bhp and 193 lb-ft SAE gross). European cars had a hotter camshaft, giving 170 PS (125 kW; 195 bhp SAE)
from https://ateupwithmotor.com/model-histories/mercedes-w113-roadster-history/4/
..I guess this information is correct because it seems a well-researched article.
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I think the article is ambiguous. It says the 280 SL's engine is the same as in the 280 SE model. Which 280 SE? US or Euro? Are they saying that the sedan engine has 10 hp less than the Pagoda engine? Or that all US engines have 10 hp less than all Euro engines...? "european cars, hotter camshaft" All, or Pagoda or sedan or...
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I tried to figure this out in EPC and now I'm further backwards. EPC says that the engine for a US or non-US Pagoda is 130.983, and that the part number for the camshaft is 180 051 08 35. It further says that this part number is used in in the following engines: M114.920,923; M130.980,981, 983, 984, 920, 921, 923, 924, 933 M180.954, 955
I'll go back to the import documentation from Germany on my 280SE and see exactly what it is that they changed for import to the US...
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Not sure, but I took it to mean that all US engines have 10 hp less than all euro engines.
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So I spoke with Jim Cosgrove at Oldtimer Restorations today, and while the CA 280SE engine might be a good deal, I think we are going to look into rebuilding the original engine. Very impressed with Jim's shop (by his website), and he is a true restorer and can do the detail work should I choose to do it. He also has a big engine test setup and can run, and dial in an engine before installing it in the car. And he brought up a good point: value is always preserved if you can keep a matching numbers car. Of course until he gets a good look at it, we won't know if it is rebuildable or not, but it does not look like the rod went through the block or the pan. So my thoughts at this point are to get the car over to him, only about 35 mins from my house. He threw out some numbers and it will still probably be $15k-$20k when it all done right, but I can justify that with this car.
I think I may drive my '57 VW over to his shop next week and chat with him and look around. He lives in a very pretty New England town and it is a nice drive over there from where I live.
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Why do people think that matching numbers equate to some sort of real value for 113's? Given the fact that you could stamp your old engine number into a factory replacement block, it doesn't add up to much.
This isn't a car that can be cloned with the objective of making it worth more. Your guy's point is OK for some cars but not for 113's - at least not yet and it may never be. He should know this about these cars.
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Dan,
I am with your opinions 100 percent but the reality is the numbers matching premium has creeped over from the American Muscle cars and has spread into Jaguar and Porsche with their Certificate of Authenticity (COA) and is just starting to spread to our cars. I guess it is just another notch in the progression of notches of perceived value from Unrestored survivor to basket case. We have been looking at stamped numbers on body panels etc so I guess it was just a matter of time.
First line of description:
http://car-from-uk.com/sale.php?id=76100
Middle of second paragraph:
http://oursl.com/research/113/113-eval.htm
Third bullet point:
http://www.rmsothebys.com/mc16/monaco/lots/1970-mercedes-benz-280-sl-pagoda/1079455?¤cy=USD
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Well....... I read through all that info and it all has the same theme. These are all places that are trying to sell cars and are placing value on something where little, or none, is even present. You can clone a 356 Speedster but not a 280SL - and why would anyone bother in the first place? This is all slick marketing by cheesy used car salesmen of '' Classic Cars. ''
My point is simple. When people start bidding 40 - 60K more for numbers matching cars, then I'll start paying attention. And, since it's not that hard to fake a bunch of stamped in numbers that are not VIN specific, not much would come of it. It might be considered false advertising but then so is the matching numbers game and no one is saying much about that right now, are they? :)
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Dan (Benz Dr.),
I have a hypothetical questions for you.
If you were buying a Pagoda, and there were two identical Pagodas for sale (that's the hypothetical part of course ;) ) except one was "matching numbers" and one was not.
Would you pay one Canadian cent more for the one with matching numbers? (If you say no, you are unique and there are few people that would join you on that decision.)
If you would pay one cent more, then now it is only a matter of degree how much more someone will pay for matching numbers.
The buyers determine if there is more value in matching numbers.
So, whether you agree or disagree, or believe or don't believe it, people are choosing matching numbers over non-matching numbers, or paying more for it every day.
Every individual buyer is deciding whether matching numbers is important to them and they decide how much more to pay for it if they want it. Also, they use it in decision making between alternative Pagodas.
It's not hype, or slick marketing ... it just is a fact of collector car exchanges.
It certainly played a role in my Pagoda purchases in 2009 and 2016. I read the comments on this forum about "matching numbers" not meaning anything for Pagodas and those comments made no sense to me. I would have offered less if my Anthracite car was not numbers matching and I really would not have considered buying my Blue (Grey-Blue) one at all if it didn't have matching numbers. That is me. I was the buyer. I decided what value it had to me just as any other factor, white vs black steering wheel, disk brakes vs drum, Anthracite vs Ivory, matching number vs non matching ..... the list goes on.
Take care,
Mark
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Well.......OK. If you had your engine blow up back when your new car was still under warranty, the factory would send a new block to your dealer. This new engine came without a serial number and the dealer was supposed to stamp your previous, original number, into your new replacement block. Since this was a common and accepted practice, and it's not the original engine, how much is matching numbers really worth when one of the main pieces isn't original to the car? And, because it was acceptable to apply original serial numbers to a replacement block 50 years ago, it should still be, right?
Original numbers are good for coffee table conversations. Just like porting and polishing, the idea has more value than the actual fact.
I'd buy the car that I liked the most that was the right color, condition and price - no two cars are identical in those respects. People may search out NM thinking it somehow makes their buy worth more and pay a small premium for it, but it will never really matter for 113's. You can't clone one of these cars and call it a special, high performance edition, like you could with a Boss 302 or a Hemi Cuda and then see a much higher price at auction. When you are talking a million dollar 300SL that was limited production, numbers start to matter. However, when we are talking about a fairly high build number of basically identical cars; not so much.
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Just or fun... when my Dad bought his car back in 1988 (my car now) one of the big selling features was that the original engine was replaced with a factory engine approx 25k prior so all of the "fixes" were in this engine rather than the original engine in the car next to it.
The other car was the same year, similar mileage, same colour but it was an automatic rather than a standard but for all other purposes I assume about the same condition (lipstick on a pig type condition).
So in 1988 for a car with 110K on it, a replacement engine was a big selling point. No discussion about numbers matching adding value.
Now if it was an engine from an SE there may be some value differential but considering how many engines were replaced by the factory I think the "matching numbers" thing on Pagodas is just something sales people throw out there to try to add value to the vehicle they are selling at the moment.
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Reminds me of Bette Midler's quote "If size doesn't matter, I'll have the bigger one thank you!"
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Ha, that's funny!
As our cars start to become more sought after and prices go up, a lot of the stuff from American pop culture will morf onto our stuff. Some of it has value and some of it doesn't, so I'll let the buyer decide and beware of cheesy used car salesmen.
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I might agree on two of the references I listed if I knew anything about them but I am fairly certain RM / Sothebys falls outside the 'Cheesy" range.
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Matching numbers only matter to those who are intent on spending more money than they need to.
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I might agree on two of the references I listed if I knew anything about them but I am fairly certain RM / Sothebys falls outside the 'Cheesy" range.
Interesting you should mention RM. I live about a 1/2 drive from their Chatham Ontario headquarters. They are a world class operation but all that glitters isn't always gold. They carefully vet the really high end stuff but probably wouldn't waste their time on a lowly 280SL. To them, cars are just another commodity to be bought and sold; they have no emotional connection to anything they move. Value is in the eyes of the beholder and they make sure they make their cut from those who know what they're doing just as easily as from those who don't.