Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: Brennie on June 16, 2023, 17:39:52
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Not wanting to complain about the weather here in the UK but… my 230SLs temperature gauge climbs rapidly whenever traffic builds… as has done since I took possession of it a couple of years ago.. I was told then to just put the heating on full blast until it cools.. er! Yes..it was suggested that I might need to recore the radiator and add an electric fan.. the head gasket is good.. just tested it..
any tips?
I spoke to a man who does these recores.. it’s not cheap and a bit of a wait..
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I went through this on my 280 which is more sensitive to overheating than a 230/250. However, a good radiator shop will be able to test and clean your radiator. It does not always have to be a re-core.
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In a Nissan 300ZX I pumped a descaling/decalsifying (?proper term?) agent solution (from my boat, called 'Barnacle Buster') through the whole system incuding the radiator for 2 hours and after that no more overheating. So, indeed, there just may be dirt/obstructions in the system that need clearing/flushing out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yb5Q116AHk0
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Is the viscous fan coupling operating properly?
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Viscose fan? That’s a new one on me… if you mean the cooling fan(4 blades.. always wondered if it was possible to swap up to a six blade fan and would it make a difference?)it’s seems to be spinning fine.. fan belt not slipping either..
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Your fan if original, bolts direct to the water pump. The typical 6 blade fan from a 250/280 is bigger in diameter and bolts to a viscous clutch. Before you start to experiment with these, I would cover the basics first. Make sure your radiator, thermostat, coolant level.... is good.
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Thank you … water level good.. how to check the radiator without taking it out( and all that entails)?..and the thermostat.. that’s difficult to check too I’m guessing??
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If you pull a hose off of the WRD, which is easier to get to, you might be able to see if there is scale or other contamination building up in any of the fittings or joints and could give a clue.
Even if hard to get to, and especially if you don't know the history of your thermostat, it might just be worth pulling out and inspecting if not just replacing regardless, since they are cheap. That would also give you a look further in for contamination.
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Yup, its a bit off a pain. On the pagoda, the hood has to come off. After that and assuming no AC, its not to bad.
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Yup, its a bit off a pain. On the pagoda, the hood has to come off. After that and assuming no AC, its not to bad.
Are you referring to the rad? You do not need to remove the hood to take out the rad. Remove the rad from the bottom of the car. Easiest if you have a lift, otherwise park the front wheels on a set of ramps. It is very easy to drop the rad out the bottom.
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Are you referring to the rad? You do not need to remove the hood to take out the rad. Remove the rad from the bottom of the car. Easiest if you have a lift, otherwise park the front wheels on a set of ramps. It is very easy to drop the rad out the bottom.
Ohh, I stand corrected. I didn't think that would work.
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Hi,
I personally made very good experiences with cleaning (descaling) of the whole cooling system with citric acid as shown in old MB workshop manuals or here: http://www.w126.kistinger.com/Kuehlsystem_reinigen.htm.
First drain your coolant and flushing it sometimes with clear water, then fill it with a mixture of water plus 10% citric acid (ca. 1.5 kg; cheap in vinicultural shops), drive around a little bit (heating must be on; thermostat open) to mix it in the whole system and leave it there for some hours. When you drain it should be brown if it was successful. After that you should flush it again sometimes with clear water before you fill it with freeze coolant. I always use rain water.
What is also very important is the efficiency of the fan, i.e. small distance to the radiator (you can arrange the rad) and, if possible, a shroud.
...WRe
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I have mentioned this before ….
A radiator shop asked me to take the car on the highway at speed and if the car does not cool down to normal temp - then the problem is the radiator. You have lots of air flow at speed and rules out what any fan can do.
He said 99% of the time it’s the radiator. A clean out (rod out) can be done if the flush doesn’t do it. Or a recore. Cost for recore was less than $400. I removed radiator from below with a floor jack. Not difficult.
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Can you flush a radiator in situ? Or,would you have to take it out?…
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I went through this and it ended up being fixed with a new radiator. I guess I could have tried the barnacle buster. But did not think of that. I tried all other fixes like new viscous coupling etc. none of that worked.
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You could flush the radiator with citric acid or another good product like Barnacle Buster leaving the radiator in place, by hooking up hoses to the top and bottom connections, then running those hoses:
(1) one hose to an immersion pump you place in a large bucket filled with the necessary liquid (first water to flush out coolant, then the cleaning agent, then water again to remove the cleaning agent before refilling the system with coolant)
(2) the other one back into the bucket so the pump stays immersed as it is doing its thing
The pump will circulate the liquids (water/cleaner/water) to circulate through the radiator however long you want it to. Once the cleaning agent is in, you can let it sit for a couple hours if you like, then start up the pump again. I used a small, simple 12 volt bilge pump widely available powered by a car battery both times I did this procedure. You can also use a household current immersion pump (like used in basements or for sprinkler systems), but for me the 12 volt pump was plenty strong on car radiators. Below picture is of my set-up on my Lancia Fulvia radiator (which I had out of the car, but to get the basic idea)
(When I did this procedure on our boat's massive Caterpillar V8 turbodiesel engines I did both engines at the same time, connected together, using a 110 volt pump).
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Test the fan clutch w/a wad of rolled newspaper/magazine.
If it shreds it, it's good. If the fan stops, no good.
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Will do … worth a try… planing on having it recored and adding a SPAL fan soon( just in time for winter)..
but, which fan.. if in front of the radiator.. do I want push( blow) or pull(suck)..?
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Will do … worth a try… planing on having it recored
For my own understanding, the de-scale (barnacle buster, or whatever) will clean out the coolant passages within the engine as well as the radiator. Right? Or, because of the material, is the engine usually NOT a problem with scale or mineral build up and it is just the radiator? Just asking for clarity.
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@Rodd - you can choose to flush the entire cooling system so including the passages in the engine and head, or only flush the radiator (or engine) itself - it's just how you hook up the hoses that route the descaling agent through whatever you are flushing.
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I understand you can choose to do it either way, I was asking if it is needed to flush the whole system? Does scale possibly build in the engine coolant passages? Otherwise, why do just the radiator?
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This will be no help but just a data point. Long time ago I had someone tell me there was a fix or technical bulletin put out by M-B for just that problem on the 230sl
Unfortunately I cannot find anything in my records but maybe one of our professional experts out there may be familiar with such a Tech Bulletin?
JB
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Thank you.. that would be a great help..
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Brennie,
You also have a good thread going about finding the right solution for a supplemental electric fan for the radiator.
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=36788.msg269524#msg269524
I'll bring a post from there to here. Maybe you can tick off which items from this list have been done, and which you plan to do, in order to have a good baseline and (hopefully) working cooling ststem.
(And, maybe members can correct or add items to the list.)
It seems that to get a cooling system into a healthy baseline state one should:
- Pressure test the coolant system
- Chemical descale the coolant system
- Check effectiveness of water pump (not sure how)
- Check effectiveness of fan viscous coupling (if so equipped)
- Check effectiveness of thermostat (in a pot on the stove, with thermometer)
- Check effectiveness of radiator (thermo imaging looking for cool spots)
- Ensure car is not running lean
-- fix anything found faulty in above tests
If the car still runs hot, then modifications/upgrades can include:
- Replace thermostat with one that opens at cooler temp
- Install a fan with more blades
- Install a supplemental electric fan
- Position the radiator closer to the fan (its adjustable)
- Install a fan shroud if one is not installed
- Install a heater core bypass hose
- Recore radiator, upgrading from two row to three row system
- Install a "long water pump" if engine currently has a short water pump
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Only overheats when idling? OK driving?
If so, that's a fan issue.
If overheating while driving, it's a rad issue.
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Rodd,
I like the summary of yours as a trouble shouting guide. (Would be good for our manual)
Not sure of you last point though.
- Install a "long water pump" if engine currently has a short water pump.
What's the advantage of a long pump with respect to cooling?
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Seems only whilst driving… I’ve never let it run long enough to test the theory.. should I?
Sounds like it makes sense.. as I’ve said,it’s done it since the day I bought the car.. I was with a host ( is there a collective noun for a lots of Pagodas?)of Pagodas the other day and not one of them experienced any thing like it.. needle rose to the middle and stayed… mine rises rapidly in and congestion..
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Not sure of you last point though.
- Install a "long water pump" if engine currently has a short water pump.
What's the advantage of a long pump with respect to cooling?
I believe on a 230SL it will put the fan closer to the back of the radiator, creating a better draw of air through the radiator. The "long" part of the pump is on the outside where the fan mounts. I assumed it was on the inside and pumped water differently, and you know what happens when we assume!
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Rodd,
The water pump for a 230 is unique due to the fact that is is a 3 bolt (fan) mount. Length wise it is in-between the short and long type (4 bolt) water pumps. Together with a solid spacer, the fan bolts directly to the pump.
The 250 and some 280s used a short water (4 bolt) pump, also with a spacer to achieve the fan distance to the radiator.
The 280Sl / SE and some others used a long water pump without spacer.
Except for the 230s, a viscous coupling was installed between the fan and the pump.
The 250-280 fans are slightly bigger than the 230 fan.
They are all interchangeable with respect to mounting to the engine.
However, if you change the 230 to a viscous style pump and fan, you have to trim the fan blades as they will touch or interfere with the air cleaner shroud.
(Hope I didn't miss anything)
I don't know why the short, spacer pump was used instead of the later long ones but don't think there is a cooling advantage within the different pumps.
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I was with a host (is there a collective noun for a lots of Pagodas?) of Pagodas the other day and ....
OK, that's a great thought. I'm starting a new thread to see who can come up with the best name for a group, host, flock, school, brood, pod, etc. of Pagodas!
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=36907.0
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I did ask earlier I think but..
Can you fit a six or nine blade fan directly onto an early 230 SL ( mine) or is that not possible without swapping to a viscous pump…
And, would it make much difference?
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Dirk said those fans with more blades from the 250/280 engines have a larger diameter and can interfere with components on a 230. You would need to find a way to trim the ends of the blades back a bit, and keep it well balanced. I'm not sure if a viscous clutch would be required to be added, or if you could use a spacer/adapter of some kind. Dirk can probably help with that.
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I did ask earlier I think but..
Can you fit a six or nine blade fan directly onto an early 230 SL ( mine) or is that not possible without swapping to a viscous pump…
And, would it make much difference?
The multiblade fans that I see at our vendors are all to be mounted to a viscous clutch. However, there are multi blade fans (more than 4) out there from different models or special order options that supposedly fit to a 230 pump direct. You will have to search for these.
I have a long (4 bolt) water pump with clutch and fan installed. I believe I trimmed about 1/2" off the wings.
I drove about 40 miles this morning in 95 degrees temp with a lot of stop and go. No issues, 80-85 C all the way.
(Picture shows a 3 bolt fan and is form the German group. Some of the Unimog's are supposed to have multiblade aluminum fans as well)
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Water pump length should not make a difference, since both are spaced the same distance from the radiator. Internal vanes of the pump are identical also. The long pump is easiest to install and should have less load on the bearings in the pump. As mentioned, if the engine still overheats when the car is cruising down the highway 60mph, then most likely it is a defective radiator.
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I put a viscous clutch on my 230 so I didn’t have to listen to it at speed, but got to keep the horsepower of a mechanical fan. I used a bmw fan that worked out to be 420mm in diameter. 10/10 would do again. I’ve been driving around on 90+ degree days in slow city traffic in the west hills of PDX and haven’t seen anything above 85 C either. I made a small adapter plate to convert to the bmw bolt pattern. Somewhere online like send cut send or elsewhere could probably set you up with any flat pattern you can draw up.
URO000616 Is the Uro part number for the fan I used, 16 bucks on rockauto. I don’t agree with trimming a non symmetrical fan like the 7 blade off the 280, too much risk for me without being able to dynamically balance but your mileage may vary. Dirk’s trim appears to be successful. The 7 blade fan is also available on rockauto.
I went custom on everything forward of the water pump to make mine work but I’m very happy with it.
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I don't know if it helps but this 9blade fan works for me.
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Water pump length should not make a difference, since both are spaced the same distance from the radiator.
Joe, or anyone,
I understood from previous posts that the pumps are called long and short because of the distance they extend away from the engine. Is that correct? If it is correct, then they would have to be placing the fan at different distances from the radiator. Please help fill my gap (ha ha) in understanding.
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The fan placement should end up roughly if not exactly the same (short to long). The tricky part is that if you take the pulley off a short water pump there is a spacer hiding there to place it out at the correct distance, aka the same distance as the long pulley. The spacer for the 230 was on the forward side of the pulley sandwiched between it and the fan. As far as I can tell all the 4 bolt water pump pulleys are the same depth and the 3 bolt water pump pulley is the same depth but with 3 bolts.
For my 230 I used a short water pump and turned my own pulley. The purpose of this was so I could swap my spacer to the front side of the pulley so I could easily play around with different distances to the radiator or change to a more durable fan clutch in the future. Currently my fan is placed in the exact position as a regular 230 but with a 280 clutch from Uro up front. The 250/280 9 blade plastic fan will not fit on a 230 without trimming. The original 230 4 blade fan is a smaller diameter than the later 9 blade fan, 430 vs 460mm.
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Brennie,
I have noticed your interest in a viscus fan. Unfortunately, this thread has morphed into a long or short fan discussion.
The viscus fan has a clutch, which operates on varying temperatures. When cold the clutch will disengage and the fan will be free to windmill or even stop.
As silicon fluid in the hub heats up, the clutch will engage and the fan will start rotating.
Therefor, when you start a cold engine the fan might or might not turn because the clutch is released. As temperature in the clutch rise, it will engage. At higher speeds when the airflow would be enough the cool the radiator, the viscus clutch, would disengage and again, the fan will be wind milling or might even stop.
The viscus fan is designed to disengage when cold or sufficient airflow cooling is at hand in order to reduce fuel consumption as well as fan noise.
Regards
Chris
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Thank you Chris….a perfect description of what and why a viscous fan is….
As my car being a 230 SL,it is without a viscous fan clutch…
I have just had the radiator recored…I’ve been told that the work done on it by the PO was Micky Mouse to sat the least…now it looks great but…didn’t seem to solve the problem…a little bit of traffic on a hot day this week resulted in a massive temperature rise …see picture…
In now thinking a fan fitted on the front of the radiator is the next step…what I’ve asked an still don’t have a definitive answer is …what size fan? and should it blow onto the radiator or suck away from it…and is a SPAL fan the way to go?
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Hello Brennie, what i don't understand is that there are hundreds of 230's around the world, probably thousands, that have original fans etc, that don't suffer overheating, many in warmer climates than ours in the UK, including my car. I do mainly short journeys, and even with the temperatures we've experienced this past week, i've had no problems
Rodd made some good suggestions, but you don't say if you've investigated and eliminated all of these, particularly the thermostat and timing
Rodd's to do list:
It seems that to get a cooling system into a healthy baseline state one should:
- Pressure test the coolant system
- Chemical descale the coolant system
- Check effectiveness of water pump (not sure how)
- Check effectiveness of fan viscous coupling (if so equipped) (Not applicable)
- Check effectiveness of thermostat (in a pot on the stove, with thermometer)
- Check effectiveness of radiator (thermo imaging looking for cool spots)
- Ensure car is not running lean
-- fix anything found faulty in above tests
Plus check and adjust the timing if required
I'm a believer in fixing the route cause, rather than changing or adding equipment to get around a problem, as it may come back to bite you
Have a read on here, particularly the last few paragraphs
https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Cooling/CoolingSystem
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Hi Chris
I just got the car back from the very reputable mechanics who organised the radiator recore ..Wouldn’t they have checked those?
And, which thermostat? Is there more than one?
Is it the one housed in here? I’ve just replaced this thermostat housing by the way.. another PO bodge up…
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Ps
And,yes .. the suggestions are very clear and precise… beyond my capabilities most of them..
I wonder if you can add a chemical cleaner to the coolant & water mix without having to flush the whole system?
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Hi Chris
I just got the car back from the very reputable mechanics who organised the radiator recore ..Wouldn’t they have checked those?
And, which thermostat? Is there more than one?
Is it the one housed in here? I’ve just replaced this thermostat housing by the way.. another PO bodge up…
That's the warm running device thermostat on the injection pump. There are pictures of the cooling system thermostat housing on this link, different types for the different cars
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=28381.msg205038#msg205038
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Wouldn’t they have checked those?
If specifically instructed to do so. We're they listed as line item work on the invoice/receipt?
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Hi Rodd
No.. but,the reason for taking the car in in the first place was to get the overheating problem sorted out..
I sure there are plenty of discussions here on how to check that thermostat..
Is it an easy job or would I have to replace gaskets etc if I started to fiddle with it?
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Brennie, have you actually checked the temperature of various parts of your engine and radiator with an infrared temperature gun? You should find one at your local hardware store for around the equivalent of $20-25. Maybe it is your temperature gauge that is faulty. Get a gun, run the temp up as you have done in the past and then start targeting different parts of the engine and rad, rad hoses etc to see what the actual temps are. Look for both hot and cold spots and then let us know what you find.
When you had your rad recored, did you get a double or triple core?
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Mmmmm! Not sure about the recore.. I’m thinking 3… they people who did it ( Viking Radiators Uxbridge) said that the last person to fiddle with it didn’t have a clue what they were doing.. it was a mess apparently… we hoped that the recore would solve the problems.. as soon as traffic clears the temperature drop instantly…
Looking at the thermostat housing by the radiator.. it looks difficult to get at because of the fuel lines( which I’ve also just replaced).. how do I test it without taking the cover off..
Going to look for a heat imaging thingy now..
what am I looking for exactly.. ?
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Brennie, just do a search for "infrared temperature gun". Here are some on Amazon.ca https://www.amazon.ca/s?k=infrared+temperature+guns&hvadid=588600920823&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9000774&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=8457733683496929432&hvtargid=kwd-304777294294&hydadcr=21265_13338218&tag=googcana-20&ref=pd_sl_7go3d52yye_e. The UK site should have them as well as your local auto parts store.
Make sure you check temps at top, bottom and both sides of rad. Also engine front and back, up and down and the coolant hoses (going into rad and coming out, and coolant hoses on the side of the engine. This will give you a good picture of where the cooler vs hotter spots are. Years ago when I bought an older Dodge pickup I found the temp gauge showed it running quite hot so I used the temperature gun which showed me the engine was not hot at all. It was a faulty gauge.
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Hello , I was reading this old post regarding overheating . That’s dangerous to drive near or at the red line . You risk to damage the engine . Is very strange to overheat in this way after a radiator recore . It might be a fuel mixture issue or some cylinders that do not cool properly , due to blockage in water ways … my car used to stay at 80degrees or 180 Fahrenheit no matter how long in traffic was seating or if I was going uphill for prolungated time . Now it tends to warm a bit more , in the range of 85-90c. I guess is mainly the fan clutch that doesn’t cool properly .. is not that expensive ( febi or meyle ) and for stop and go traffic is the best solution .
If you read the owners manual ,is written that is normal to reach the red zone during summer or stop and go … I personally disagree with Mercedes specialist of the 60s…
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I managed to solve the problem I was having with the overheating… I bought a “new to me” 280SL.. .. now I have no problem…
Drastic,I know..
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Wow ! Is like when you have a pain in your finger is better sometimes to cut directly all arm . You actually sold your 230 for this overheating issue ?
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Brennie, drastic solution indeed ! Did you sell the 230 SL ? Enjoy the new to you 280 SL
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Yes ..a little over the top I freely admit.. but the 230 was my first Pagoda and a steep learning curve.. it taught me a lot and I enjoyed the process… I bought badly from someone who (by reputation) I thought I could trust.. I spent time and money,as we do, making many improvements.. met many people on the journey,both good and not so..
In the end,I knew what to look for in my next car.. and I found it.. I’m the third owner and it’s a keeper.. the overheating was the trigger.. now my needle sits dead center and problem solved…