Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Pagoda Spotting => Topic started by: Bob Bersh on July 26, 2023, 20:53:42
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My 1971 280Sl was used in an Ad for the Concours
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Very Nice, Bob.
Mike
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Thanks Mike!
The category that I entered at Greenwich was Post War Roadsters. The competition was a 190SL, 560SL and 5 Pagodas. Greenwich is now a Hagerty event so I thought the Hagerty rating system would apply. Unfortunately I was wrong. They gave first place to a Pagoda that would be a 4 on Hagerty's scale. The owner had painted the wheel wells white among other incorrect attributes.
From now on I will only enter local shows such as the MBCA Great Marques Concours at Old Westbury.
Sorry for venting but there are very few people that I know, who would understand.
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Reprinting what is noted in the Tech Manual:
"I am quite certain about all of the following, that rocker panels are painted satin Black over the textured rocker "Schutz", Wheel Wells are also painted body color over rocker "Schutz", the hood torsion bar is satin Black, the trunk interior, the lid and inside the soft top compartment are the same satin Black. Any portion of the body structure around the front grill area that is visible from the front, through the Satin Black grill louvers is also Satin Black. The inside of the hood is, of course painted the same body color as is the whole engine bay. Early cars often had contrasting colors for the hard top and wheels. Later cars had matching hard tops. As the wheels were completely covered by the hub caps on those cars, I don't believe they were painted in body color, but rather satin Black (or maybe also some other neutral color, I'm not sure on that)."
"I just received a message from Mercedes-Benz Classic Car Center, stating that:
Torsion Bar: Galvanized
Wheel Wells: Black over Body Shutz
Rockers: Black over Body Shutz
It's been generally accepted in this forum that the wheel wells should be body color over shutz. Does this email from the Classic Center change that? "
What is the consensus of the membershi p/ resident experts?
PS I too was at Greenwich and one of the interesting facets was how approachable and friendly Wayne Carini was
JB
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Reprinting what is noted in the Tech Manual:
PS I too was at Greenwich and one of the interesting facets was how approachable and friendly Wayne Carini was.
Totally agree!!! I met him near Detroit at 2021 Concours d Elegance of America.
He just wants to talk cars with anyone and everyone. He was showing a really cool 1938 Jaguar SS100, encouraging little kids to sit in it!
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John,
The subject of wheel well color has come up numerous times. In this thread, Doug Kim seems to feel that either body color or black could be correct:
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=2158.msg11272#msg11272 (https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=2158.msg11272#msg11272)
I have looked at my Mercedes 230SL advertising brochures from 1966 (I have several), and they seems to show examples of both! Most look black, but on dark cars it can be hard to tell.
Member glcg123's white all-original 230SL (in our For Sale section) appears to have black wheel wells.
-David
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First and foremost you own the car and get to do whatever you like with it. If you like the contrast with the black wheel wells on a light car, go for it.
Based on discussions with knowledgeable folks at Motoring Investments I still go with the wheel wells painted the body color.
Doug made a point about the undercarriage, and there may be a slight amount of overspray, but for the most part the undercarriage was sprayed with an undercoating, which by now, if it still exists, is dark brown or similar.
The side rails and the interior of the trunk are painted a very dark gray. This has also been the subject of many a discussion. The formula or code has been posted a number of times, if interested, just use the search function to get the details.
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Jonny, if I am not mistaken, don't you do some "show/concours" judging?
Would there be any mention of this (black, color, shutz coating etc), in judging criteria in the MBCA scoresheets or some other recognized criteria
(addressing my comment to Jonny B but obviously anyone else out there who could address the question?
JB
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Yes, I do concours judging for MBCA and several other shows in the western region. I also serve as co-chair for the MBCA National Concours committee.
We do have concours judging guidelines, but are not able to include every detail for every car. Part of the authenticity criteria necessarily comes from experience and background.
For the wheel wells, my go to has been Motoring Investments. Here is one of the references we have used in the past for the Pagoda , the "Holy Grail" car very well documented on the Motoring Investments site - http://historic.motoringinvestments.com/Z104.htm
If you go to the first page of the technical manual, and scroll down through the list of content topics, there is a listing for "Originality" click on that and it takes you to a single listing for a 230 SL posted by Cascadia. There are a large number of photos of the Signal Red car. Wheel wells are shown as body color.
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And don't forget, when you have a question about originality we have a forum specifically for discussing such things.
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?board=29.0
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Bob,
I don't know what to say about your disappointment with the judging other than it you want to have a chance to win, then know the rules. Don't get upset at the show or judges because you assumed this would work a specific way. Your car is very nice, so I hope you go to more shows and have fun. But if you're in it to win it, know the rules.
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Reprinting what is noted in the Tech Manual:
"I just received a message from Mercedes-Benz Classic Car Center, stating that:
Torsion Bar: Galvanized
Wheel Wells: Black over Body Shutz
Rockers: Black over Body Shutz
It's been generally accepted in this forum that the wheel wells should be body color over shutz. Does this email from the Classic Center change that? "
What is the consensus of the membershi p/ resident experts?
PS I too was at Greenwich and one of the interesting facets was how approachable and friendly Wayne Carini was
JB
Back around 2013 when I did the paintwork on my car I received a message back from Classic Center Germany saying exactly opposite. It said, certainly, "with no guarantees", but that is what they said - wheel well is body color.
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Thank you everyone. Looks like I got my answer, and apparently it's not a given or slam-dunk yes or no.
I will throw one more comment into the barrel, particularly regarding body color wheel wells on a light/white color car. I have a feeling those who would make it white do so to show how "pristine" the car is, and I suspect rarely drive it.
thanks again everyone for their input
JB
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For the wheel wells, my go to has been Motoring Investments. Here is one of the references we have used in the past for the Pagoda , the "Holy Grail" car very well documented on the Motoring Investments site - http://historic.motoringinvestments.com/Z104.htm
Thank you for making this reference. If anyone with a 280SL is interested in originality this is an excellent resource! Likewise for the 230SL from Cascadia in the tech section. Additionally the Gary Jarvis (sp?) car on Motoring Investments is another textbook example of originality for a 250SL.
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………Looks like I got my answer, and apparently it's not a given or slam-dunk yes or no………
My 1969 280SL (007749) was delivered to me at the factory with body color fender wells. Definitely not black. I can’t say if there were earlier cars with fender wells in other than body color.
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Greenwich is now a Hagerty event so I thought the Hagerty rating system would apply. Unfortunately I was wrong. They gave first place to a Pagoda that would be a 4 on Hagerty's scale. The owner had painted the wheel wells white among other incorrect attributes.
From now on I will only enter local shows such as the MBCA Great Marques Concours at Old Westbury.
Sorry for venting but there are very few people that I know, who would understand.
The Hagerty scale is a rating of condition, and really has nothing to do with Concours judging.
Nearly all of these multi-marque Concours d’Elegance shows use what is called the French rules for judging. Pretty much it’s a beauty contest mixed in with a little politics.
If you have spent a lot of time, effort, and money making your car as authentic as you possibly can, it is the MBCA Concours, such as the ones you mention where you will be rewarded for these efforts. You may find others similarly situated, and you still may “lose”, but nonetheless, your efforts will be at least recognized on a point scale.
Like the old saying it’s the journey not the destination, just being invited and having the experience of a major show can be a fun and rewarding endeavor.
I have been in a lot of shows of all kinds over the past 20 years. In some cases I have won first place, or second and in some cases best of show. Other cases barely got much of a glance. But they were all fun.
One particularly interesting experience was the 2006 Meadowbrook Concourse D’Elegance. I was in a sports car class which included a BMW 507, pristine vintage Porsches as well as the last big block Corvette to come off the line. They were even making a movie about that last car, which won the class and the judges were fawning over. However, it was my Pagoda where many of the attendees stopped for a photo op, usually with somebody in front of the car, with a big smile on their face…no, I didn’t win anything but a lot of smiles.
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"Nearly all of these multi-marque Concours d’Elegance shows use what is called the French rules for judging. Pretty much it’s a beauty contest mixed in with a little politics."
Well said.
Let me add to your relayed experiences: At a very respected Newport Conocurs, my Pagoda was criticized for having "wrong tail lights" as the turn-signal wasn't amber. (my car is Germany delivery/usage-hence all red) I didn't win that discussion and it's difficult to tell someone judging your car that he's wrong. In researching, this criticism was by a member of an "international judging team", who happened to be from Italy and "assumed"...
And here's a little politics: I once was part of a judging team (basically as the statistician) composed of well-respected and industry recognized names at a now defunct Concours. The winner by points of the class was a Talbot Lago but also in the class was an entry by Ralph Lauren. The show Chairman overrode the judges pick and awarded the Lauren Car saying "we want him back"
So for attending or entering a Concours, little comparison: if you go to a horse race track expecting to leave with alot of money you will be disappointed, but if you go planning on spending a predetermined amount of money for entertainment, you will be guaranteed a good day.
Enjoy your accepted entry and enjoy the people at shows
jb
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While I may lack the skills for concours judging - from a looks perspective, I’d have taken your car home first any day!
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My 1966 230SL has original paint 334G and the wheel wells are the same color.
I wonder if black wheel wells could have been used with cars that were ordered with the bundt cake alloy wheels - of course I presume that would only be later Pagodas but would make some sense.