Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: mdsalemi on September 16, 2023, 12:04:24
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https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/mu23/munich/lots/r0017-1963-mercedes-benz-230-sl-pagoda/1388441
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Thanks for sharing Michael. Love the colour combination. That has to be the very first automatic built.
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Body, chassis, and engine numbers show it originally having a manual transmission..
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interesting, chassis # shows it originally having a manual transmission (113042-10-00012)
Yes Charles, I missed that. Too bad they swapped in the automatic.
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If someone were to offer me “€260,000 - €340,000” for mine I’d paint it any &$”@ color combo they’d want, and personally deliver it to Munich. Just saying…
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A rather interesting car. Check out the rear seat setup. Grundig radio. The antenna mount on the hardtop?? Automatic badge on the trunk?
The color combination is "interesting" hard to tell from the photos, but the interior appears to be turquoise? The paint codes shown in one of the photos reads a 574/040. 040 is easy that's black. The 574, well not so much. I could not find a reference to that color in the early color books I have. The paint codes beginning with "5" are usually in the reds. I found 573 as a dark bordeaux red.
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Car number 00009 or not that car has a lot of ugly to knock off. If that is worth 300K then mine is worth more...
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Yes, interior is turquoise, just like mine except it’s pretty beat up, embarrassing to the least.
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A rather interesting car. Check out the rear seat setup. Grundig radio. The antenna mount on the hardtop?? Automatic badge on the trunk?
The color combination is "interesting" hard to tell from the photos, but the interior appears to be turquoise? The paint codes shown in one of the photos reads a 574/040. 040 is easy that's black. The 574, well not so much. I could not find a reference to that color in the early color books I have. The paint codes beginning with "5" are usually in the reds. I found 573 as a dark bordeaux red.
I find the entire configuration of this car unusual! I’m wondering if this first run of pagodas had some kinks that were worked out in later production. The dash is painted black (including around the air vents) which was not body color. That metallic orange with turquoise is a wacky color combo but not entirely uncharacteristic of the early 1960’s. And how on earth could that rear “seat” be used? I’d really love to see the data card for this car.
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There are a lot of curious anomalies with this car, including two screws in the face of the dash. In leather/tex on the soft top cover, usually would match the rest of the interior, looks brown.
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I am at a loss how they could price that ugly and poorly kept car up that high?
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The paint codes shown in one of the photos reads a 574/040. 040 is easy that's black. The 574, well not so much.
The dash is painted black (including around the air vents) which was not body color.
Originally black car?
Also, brown(?) leather/tex on soft top lid.
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The 574, well not so much. I could not find a reference to that color in the early color books I have. The paint codes beginning with "5" are usually in the reds. I found 573 as a dark bordeaux red.
Jonny, did you look in our forums?
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=22599.0
Also, Google says Spinal Red, but apparently that's a newer color.
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And a Grundig radio? Wonder if a dealer or maybe MB just popped that in because it fit?
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I did find the more current reference to spinell (SP) red. My bad for not pushing a bit further into the site data.
In reading through the strings, the one (mostly) plausible reference was that 574 represented a special order code.
Still, why in heaven's name would you paint a car orange with a turquoise interior??
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And no picture of Soft-top!!
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Still, why in heaven's name would you paint a car orange with a turquoise interior??
Dunno. But at Dan Caron's Meeting of the Clans in 2006, The Canadian songwriter (and brother of comedian Dave Thomas) Ian Thomas showed up from Toronto in a Pagoda that was some electric lime green metallic as I recall. https://ianthomas.ca/about/
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Boy if they get that kind of Euros for that SL, then they can sell mine. Looks like the German market is seeking these Pagodas.
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I emailed Sotheby’s to find out what was special about the car to make it fives times the value of much better pagoda’s. We will sew if they respond.
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There have been a few discussions about these orange cars on here, apparently the car released at the Geneva show in 1963 was orange and black, and if you look closely it also seems to have a black dash, although unfortunately the video is only black and white, so hard to tell what colour interior it has
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Pathe+geneva+motor+show+1963&&view=detail&mid=E5ADDD2A3E1CB40341CEE5ADDD2A3E1CB40341CE&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3DPathe%2Bgeneva%2Bmotor%2Bshow%2B1963%26FORM%3DHDRSC6
I've seen a post where Achim knows this car and it's history and past owner
They'll probably be a collector who is willing to pay a premium for a car with this history, especially as it's being marketed by Sotheby's
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Most likely a museum will pick it up, and as said for the history of the car.
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Look closely at the fire wall. See any problems there?
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It's a newer style pebble texture pad, and I don't see the rubber hood protector strip things on the ridge.
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It's a newer style pebble texture pad, and I don't see the rubber hood protector strip things on the ridge.
Keep looking. It's both hidden and obvious at the same time.
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Body paint color near the brake booster looks to be red, not orange
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I like the colour with the interior. But appreciate it's not for everyone!
Credit for the attempt at dotology on the FI pump
Firewall... my car is much later so I may be talking bobbins again but the "disc" in the top centre (by the air-vent cowl) seems to have a bit of metal running right through it. All looks odd to me but on a car this early I have no clue
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Some more information on this car
https://www.pagodentreff.de/diskussionsforum/threads/suche-infos-zur-nr-9.1594/
https://www.pagodentreff.de/diskussionsforum/threads/nr-9-lebt-wenn-auch-als-bastelbude.19891/
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Heater Valve Inspection Plug is missing. Seems to be metal running through the opening. Area where inner fender welds should be looks awful. Cowl area looks bad.
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Heater Valve Inspection Plug is missing. Area where inner fender welds should be looks awful. Cowl area looks bad.
There isn't any plug on early cars but this one has been grafted or stuck back together. The whole pinch weld area is coming apart. Whatever is going on, it's not good.
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Nothing comes up for me. I see the link, but when I click on Photos etc, nothing happens
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Dash is either black, or a very dark blue. That would make sense with the turquoise interior. I don't care that it may be 230SL #9, because this car is a restoration nightmare. Someone is going to get taken to the cleaners.
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There isn't any plug on early cars but this one has been grafted or stuck back together. The whole pinch weld area is coming apart. Whatever is going on, it's not good.
Dan,
You mean this area? The new firewall pad probably came pre-cut and they tried to fill in the pad hole. But, is this what you mean by the pinch weld? Here we can see an area of the two parts of the car mated together, but the rest of it is covered by another piece. I assume this is what's a mess?
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Appears the rear seat is sitting on some type of wood blocks? Any idea why?
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To make people ask questions! ;D
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Dan,
You mean this area? The new firewall pad probably came pre-cut and they tried to fill in the pad hole. But, is this what you mean by the pinch weld? Here we can see an area of the two parts of the car mated together, but the rest of it is covered by another piece. I assume this is what's a mess?
Yes, if you look closely at the pinch weld it should run straight across by the heater valve area. This one has both treatments meaning it appears to have both types welded in. Near the VIN tag it's bubbling out and starting to open up. Something very fishy going on in that area.
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Let’s be realistic, whoever is buying this isn’t a normal W113 buyer, it is a collector that likes interesting stuff. I think the colors are cool, and period, AND something a show car could have.
Who knows if this is the car in the period film, but it sure looks like that.
Of course, it has mock ups and has been modified, that becomes “Part of the Story” of a prototype....
At the end of the day, this is a cool piece that will end up in a private museum, and almost never driven or touched.
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Let’s be realistic, whoever is buying this isn’t a normal W113 buyer, it is a collector that likes interesting stuff. I think the colors are cool, and period, AND something a show car could have.
Who knows if this is the car in the period film, but it sure looks like that.
Of course, it has mock ups and has been modified, that becomes “Part of the Story” of a prototype....
At the end of the day, this is a cool piece that will end up in a private museum, and almost never driven or touched.
Only the final auction result will tell the full tale. Some cars owned by celebrities have gotten a huge "ho-hum" at market, meaning the car wasn't driven up in final sales price nearly as the owners or assessors would have believed. As for this "celebrity owner", reported to be Dr. Fritz Nallinger, many collectors might say, "Who?"
Anyone with a bit of money can create a colored dash, turquoise upholstery, and any color outside you want. The provenance can't be duplicated however, nor can the VIN.
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What am I missing here? Yes, I'm aware that it's supposedly the 9th 230SL built. It has received poor care during its lifetime. It looks like it's full of bondo and filler, (inner fender areas are awful). Who knows what lurks under the orange paint. Probably tons of rust. It's been color changed. Priced like a restored, factory 5-speed, yet it's an automatic. Prototype?????? I think not. Museum piece??????? Really? Not any auto museum that I've been to.
Let's say some one buys this for the price that Sotherby's is estimating. You would need to spend another $200K, at least, to get this to museum quality. Now you're in for $450K to $500K for the 9th 230SL, automatic. Sorry, I don't get it.
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What am I missing here? Sorry, I don't get it.
Meanwhile, for those with a long memory, there was a long discussion some years back when a "guest" popped up here about a very early prototype 230SL. There was a story about it that was hard to piece all together. One of those, "I'm investigating this for a friend" that often shows up in many realms. The car was in Michigan, west of Ann Arbor, and I went to take a look at it. It was a dark and stormy night. Well, a dark and stormy day. Badly lit barn.
Fast forward to last fall and I get a personal call from a guy I know who was working with the now-dead and gone International Automotive Media Awards. He was investigating (on behalf of the widow of the guy who was apparently owned it) the car and the likelihood of an eventual sale. It sounded vaguely familiar, and sure enough it was the exact same car; so the information provided to them 15 years prior was just that; information they did nothing with. I gave my contact as much as I remembered about it.
Here's the report back on "that car":
"We found a buyer for Jo’s 280SL, a California collector. He made her a good offer. She balked a bit. Then, he made her a really good offer and the deal was done. Our friend Ed Lucas brokered, and it looked like a pretty good deal to me. Ed knows just about all the collectors and what they like. That was a cool car."
I was not impressed. Neither would any of you had you seen it.
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If this, I wondered about the ending
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=3449.0
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Plug is missing. Looks like there is no access hole.
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The question isn't, "Should this early 230SL be saved and restored"?, the question is, "Is this car, in this condition, worth the Sotherby's estimate of $250K?" Someone please correct me, but I don't think that 230SL #9 is a prototype. I could be wrong. Other than it being a very early car, it has nothing else going for it that would command such a ridiculous price. Don't be fooled by the orange paint. It did not leave the factory that way.
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Plug is missing. Looks like there is no access hole.
There isn't supposed to be an access hole on an early car.
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A couple things that have been noticed about the early cars:
Heater access hole: they didn't have one and the firewall seam is straight across.
Fact that the body and paint plate on door jam indicates a manual (10) yet the car is an automatic (12). I don't believe it is necessarily a transplant. My car is the same way (number 00871). Yet the data card and the plate on the firewall confirm its an automatic transmission (number 25).
I have a wildly speculative theory: these cars were not built start to finish only to then get the data plates. Rather the body/chassis assembly line came first. That includes the paint code and the body number which were noted on the paint plate. Then came the engine and transmission installation -- some went manual, some went automatic. This would be indicated with the VIN plate and the stamp near the front left fender. The final brush stroke was the automatic badge on the right-hand side of the trunk...
Somebody else out there with an early 230 automatic can easily test my hypothesis!
One more thing I don't think has been pointed out: the smooth chrome shift-gate. Nothing wrong with it -- just fun to see one similar to mine.
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First seven hundred 230SL's were all standard transmission. This is why early cars often have much higher VIN than auto transmission engine numbers. Auto and standard transmission engines are not exactly the same with different treatment where the flywheel mounts. MB built some auto version engines ahead of time and then used them during production as the option was requested.
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Interesting Dan. Never thought of that as I wondered just how the chassis and the transmission could be so wide apart... So that shoots a small hole in my theory -- this car shouldn't be an automatic. In any event it's in need of a ton of work. Call me crazy, I'd put it under 50k...
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I fully agree with you James.
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Here is a scan of the photo referenced in the Pagodentreff link.
The caption from the book translates - "Karl Wilfert had the effect of safety colors examined on the 230SL"
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Some more information here:
https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/mu23/munich/lots/r0017-1963-mercedes-benz-230-sl-pagoda-development-car/1388441
Cheers,
CT
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That does add clarification. Thanks for the sleuthing.
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It will probably sell.
It seems to me that every time we turn around, more than 50 years after the fact, there's yet another interesting find. A car owned or driven by some executive or celebrity. Some very early model, some are calling prototypes. A rare barn find. A "bubble car" that has very low mileage, one owner (until they died) and is in pristine condition. Name the interesting fact, and just wait--one will pop up somewhere.
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It didn't take much sleuthing. It was posted on the Gullwing Group chat board. Here is the full post. Anyone interested can contact Herr Meissler.
Cheers,
CT
1963 Mercedes-Benz 230 SL ‘Pagoda’ Nallingers Development Car | Munich | RM Sotheby's
Conrad Meissler
Oct 27 #4889
Dear all, I want to inform you that my 230 SL - privately owned and testcar of Professor Friedrich Nallinger is coming to auction - a unique possibility to get this orangemetallic Pagoda. Also Uhlenhaut might have driven it. The Mercedes Benz Archive found many interesting Informations from Fritz Nallinger, that you can see under „documentation“.
A great weekend to all of you, yours Conrad
https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/mu23/munich/lots/r0017-1963-mercedes-benz-230-sl-pagoda-development-car/1388441
Herzliche Grüße Ihr
Conrad C. Meissler
Geschäftsführender Gesellschafter
MEISSLER & CO IMMOBILIEN
Nienstedtener Marktplatz 29
22609 Hamburg
www.meissler-co.de
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Ooooh…a test!
Firewall pad has opening for heater valve access hole and plug, but in 1963 MB did not provide the access hole and plug…this came later ??? Therefore incorrect dash pad.
( what’s the prize if you guess correct??)
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I may be the only one, but I love the color, certainly unique. Perhaps the only one ever released in that colour combination?
Firewall seam. I have a Jan 64 230SL and the firewall seam is straight across, no rounded semi circle like this one has. As such it does not have a firewall plug to access the heater core valve.
I also note a red knob on the dash right of the headlight knob, above the steering column. I have not seen that on early 230’s, what does it do? It’s red, so must be important 😀
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I don't mind the colours either, although i'm not sure i'd want to drive around in it, who ever thought of orange, black and turquoise as a combination
The red knob is clearly an ejector seat for MB salesman who haven't hit their targets
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Sold for 220,000 euros.
CT