Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: RichardPercival on October 24, 2023, 23:19:23
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Hi all,
Lovely being here :)
I'm finally looking to buy my first W113! I have financing lined up and have done my basic research over many years of wanting one since I watched Two for the Road in the late 90s and reading loads of marque/model books.
I've found a car that I'm interested in - very much a 3 everyday runner not concourse or even 'good' and looking for someone who can do an inspection.
I keep hearing awful things about Lemon Squad, and the selling dealer (car is on consignment) has been very helpful but the local Euro specialist let me know that candidly they no longer have someone on the team who is knowledgeable about older Mercedes.
Does anyone have advice on what to do, or know of a service in this state/location? I know the car is anything but perfect, but really trying to gauge whether the rust in trunk is surface or from the cross member below being swiss cheese and similar queries. Loads of paperwork from old services, however loads of dubious areas also.
Hope someone might have some thoughts..
Thanks!
Rich
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Try Don Drabik at http://www.cherryclassiccars.com/
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Richard,
Glad you found us pre-purchase!! And, thanks for joining as a full member. Have you read this?
https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Buying/PrepurchaseEvaluation
What's your experience/skills with maintaining any car? A classic German car? The more experience you have, the more details you can confidently discuss with the person doing the inspection.
Best of luck finding the right one! An age old saying - buy the best example you can afford.
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I keep hearing awful things about Lemon Squad, and the selling dealer (car is on consignment) has been very helpful but the local Euro specialist let me know that candidly they no longer have someone on the team who is knowledgeable about older Mercedes.
Why doesn't the local Euro specialist inspect the car?
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Thanks! I’ll reach out to him.
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Richard,
I know several people in MBCA Western Michigan section, so I have reached out to them for suggestions.
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Thanks Rodd!
I am someone with very little experience in dealing with the actual mechanics, since watching endless Tyrell’ classic workshop videos doesn’t really count 😊
I am well read on the Pagoda in that I have multiple books and know about matching body numbers, spot welds, headlight notches and the like - but again it’s all theoretical not actual understanding..
The car I’m looking at is here, and of course looks nice enough in the selected pictures with tired carpets but that look to be original with the gear shift gator actually molded in - I’d like to keep stuff original though I have no expectation of having a concours car with only 60k to spend on buying. I hope to then slowly upgrade and repair things as I go, but would like a reliable and presentable weekend driver not a project/ basket case lol!
https://www.grautogallery.com/vehicles/btc0772-c/1966-mercedes-benz-230sl-convertible/gallery?image_source=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.dealeraccelerate.com%2Fag%2F2%2F13298%2F1326416%2F790x1024%2F1966-mercedes-benz-230sl-convertible
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That's a nice looking car. Would be nice to know if the service records they show can validate the very low mileage (kilometers) shown on the dash. They took lots of good pics.
You're right, nobody wants to be stuck with a money pit! Rust is the #1 concern, as well as #2, # 3, and #4 concern! It's the most expensive thing do deal with and can be hard to find at first. This is the most important thing your inspector should know how to look for. Then, all the mechanicals.
There's a lot of nice pics of that car, looks great at first glance. The engine bay should be body color and firewall pad is missing, so who ever did the painting was not trying to go "concourse" by any means. I wonder if they took off all the trim and lights to do the paint job. I wonder what the original color was. There are quite a lot of original, correct things shown in the pictures. I like the chrome strip that would be below a narrow Euro rear license plate. I wish I had that radio! It doesn't have a locking gas cap, but reproductions don't cost much. Panel gaps look good. You can't get the brown door sill rubber mats anymore. I wonder if this has the original brown rubber floor mats under those carpeted floor mats. The engine has a fan shroud, I think that is unusual for a 230SL. It has a tool kit, but would be nice to see all the tools out. A correct original set is worth crazy money, so they probably replaced any valuable tools with basic ones. This is a European model similar to my 230SL, and actually was made very close to the same time! That car's VIN ends in 18201 and mine ends in 18381.
Do you already have a good mechanic lined up to use? I'm sure there will be things you want fixed within the first few months of ownership. If you're handy at all, you can learn to do basic maintenance yourself, which gets you to know your car more intimately.
Along with the link to our site I posted above, take a look here for what a good car (original, and restored to original specs) looks like.
https://www.motoringinvestments.com/mercedes-280sl-w113-buyers-guide/
https://www.motoringinvestments.com/restored-cars/
If you don't snap this one up, then I strongly recommend you go drive a few Pagodas that you find for sale near you. It may influence what your priorities are with regards to what things are good or bad with any car you are considering for purchase.
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I then have been talking with the consignment dealer who have been transparent and helpful. The radio only turns on with no sound and the antenna is stuck half way. Clock doesn’t work but wipers, Speedo and rev counter do.
They’ve sent me photos at my request - basically the paint was redone last year but considering it cost 17k on the receipt, not very well! The notches don’t look to be there and there is some low quality work.
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Interestingly it looks like the right wing may be original but the left one has been replaced and there is no data card - the paint color is not original (looks like it could be dark maroon or tobacco brown original in the paint flaw)
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With the lack of spot welds in your last pictures I would have the mounting of those front fenders inspected closely. There could be an improper repair in that area. I see bubbling in one of the pictures near the fuse box.
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With regard to rust - it looks like the floorpans have been repaired with filler a some point but it doesn't look like it is necessarily getting worse. Hard to tell if the trunk floor rust is from the beam beneath being rusted through.. When it was repainted last year paperwork receip said was sanded in trunk so looks like perhaps has worsened.
Is car a 59k value or overpriced for work needed?
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My opinion is it is over priced. The body will cause you some financial pain if you want to make it better. Especially the front around the engine bay...
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I saw this on craig's list in Pittsburgh. It may be a better deal.
https://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/cto/d/baden-1967-mercedes-benz-230sl/7675539829.html
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I updated my post above.
Factory colors (and some other useful info) will be listed on the ID plate. It's in the engine bay, drivers side, where the relays and washer fluid pump are mounted (by the washer fluid bag). Do you have a pick of that?
https://www.sl113.org/wiki/DataCard/BodyandPaintNumberPlate
Can you tell we enjoy analyzing cars and helping people shop? :D
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Thanks badali!
That does look like it might potentially be less of a can of worms though it is a lot less original in some aspects than the other car (notice the little black guards in the engine bay to damp the hood closing are missing - would prefer a manual on the 230 (what I was looking for) but that of all things is not the deal breaker. Assuming this is light ivory.
What do you think of the Pittsburgh car Rodd, better value? I suppose I can haggle on the brown car given the work needed, but people usually sell for what they can afford to, and the owner seems to have only bought it last year after the person who did the bad paint job on behalf of he owner for 30 years in Vermont or their kid who was trying to sell it.
The id plate is missing from the MI car (likely when the dodgy looking inner wing work was done) and I can't see the info in the paperwork so would be a question of paying $150 from MB for the info once owned and then I guess getting a new plate made. From the pics of the footwells I fear the odd colored floor mats are it - would be cool to have them and the rubber door strips in original brown obviously! The mileage quoted is consistent with the odometer going to 99999km and then rolling over up to the current 4000 or so km. I think since there is info from when it was imported after 1981 and then owned by the same person for 30 ears it might well be genuine and documented but good call, I'll ask the dealer if it really is documented!
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I don't look around at cars for sale, so I'm not the person who will tell you a good value or not. I bought mine 23 years ago and have not shopped for another, so I can't correlate condition to value. I've seen a lot of them in person, though, at our national events. Was in Chicago a month ago for Pagoda Fest 2023 and there were about 25 cars there. https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=37211.0 The key will be getting it to a restorer or inspector who knows Pagodas and will write up a detailed report for you. It will be worth it to do this for each car you seriously consider to avoid buying that dreaded money pit. People here can extrapolate on the report, explaining costs of repairs and so forth. Buy the best example you can afford. And, get it the way you want it (auto/manual, 230/250(early/late)/280, 3rd seat or not, California coupe, USA or Euro style, color combo, etc). It can all be changed, but the less you have to change the less you have to spend.
We should add a section to our buyers guide with some comparison details to help novice shoppers decide what they want. Maybe a good list of details/comparisons already exist elsewhere, in other websites and books. For example, a novice may not know that the 230SL generally came with a 3.75:1 differential ratio, which produces less RPM on the freeway than the 4.08:1 that generally came on the later cars. There were other ratios offered. People with the 4.08:1 often want to swap the diff or entire rear axle for a better ratio because of the high RPMs on the freeway. Others choose to change transmission to a 5 or 6 speed manual. That's significate money to some owners, and downtime with out the car. That engine noise really irritates some people, but the car was engineered to handle it.
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Thanks Rodd and Brad, I think my next step is to get the MI car inspected properly. While it has worrying details in the engine bay so that I need a proper rust report, it is pretty closely aligned with what I want - the earlier 230 with the 4 speed manual and Euro headlights and original tail lights and no additional over riders on the bumpers. While the Cream car has better paint that looks right in the engine bay and was likely redone, it has new rear lights and bumpers with overriders that I believe are not original to a 230 even US spec. Those of course are probably cheaper to replace than rusty panels! But overall it isn't as much the look of car I want, so most important for the MI car is that it's safe and not actively deteriorating due to the less than great work, while I wait to be able to afford to redo that stuff.
So time to get an inspection!
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Dealer just sent the data sheet I requested since missing from the engine bay. Now to decode it ;D
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So it should be Bronze Brown metalic - seems like a reasonable approximation!
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A tidier Pagoda in the same 461 paint code..
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My opinion is it is over priced. The body will cause you some financial pain if you want to make it better. Especially the front around the engine bay...
I agree, you can probably find a better, more original, 230 for less money.
On the other hand if you drive this car and it pulls really strong and feels tight and starts easily hot or cold then you will probably really like it despite its failings.
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If you are looking for a car without any issues, particularly a perfect body with flawless sheet metal (regardless of paint condition) in a price point that this car is commanding, you are looking for a unicorn. While you certainly don't want to buy something whose condition is unknown, understand that all metal can be repaired just as the mechanicals. You simply want to know the condition of what you are buying.
One of our members, AlexD, had his car wrecked last year here in NC, and it's now in the final stages of body work at Motorwerks Group in Commerce Township, MI, which is in the Detroit area. Probably no better a place in Michigan that knows the Pagodas, particularly from the body/metal standpoint. The owner, Dr. Satish Tummala has been known to travel to inspect cars; in fact he flew down to Raleigh NC last year to provide a bodywork estimate on Alex's car. So worth a call. Motorwerks Group, +1-248-668-6793. https://www.motorwerksgroup.com I would better trust someone who knows these cars from the R&R standpoint than some unknown entity.
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Thank you all very much for your responses! I'm trying to use my head not heart on a purchase, but this car fits a lot of my desires for spec being a late 230 manual - I like the color which seems to be correct, I like the interior which looks to be the original bronze leather etc. I'm trying to get it inspected even while knowing that the front fenders inner and outer will eventually need to be put right, the question is how urgent is it.
At this point I will try to get an Inspector to ascertain the rust issues and whether they are extensive or can be/are curtailed to make the car safe and useable without getting significantly worse. Then of course the mechanics need to be sound and hopefully the un-benchmarked 230 engine is correct and is one that did and still does pull strong :)
At the end of the day the cars are likely worth what we're willing to pay for it, so at the price point and level 3 this is the most wide open of categories - since we all know it needs work, but how much? Hopefully upon check, the aluminium panels / gearbox and engine still match the build sheet!
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Does anyone know if sun visors on the 230 were all the same color? Were they matched to the Hard top headlining in either off white or 'bamboo?'
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Match the hardtop headliner. I think the softtop had the same color as the hardtop on the inside?? I just bought some reproductions from Vintage, but haven't compared them to what I assume are my originals.
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Hello Richard, have a look in the tech manual, in fact if you get used to searching through the manual you'll learn nearly everything you need to know about Pagoda ownership
https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Interior/Sunvisors
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I believe 230 sunvisor options were light grey or light beige, matching the headliner. A brown/bronze interior would have the light beige.
may be wrong but I don’t think those seat covers are original, nor the radio.
The rust on the trunk floor is typically just surface rust.
A euro car is good because it will have a 3.75 differential, not the US 4.08. And the headlights & metric gauges look a little nicer IMO.
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My mistake, that is the original radio, and a nice one (though it sounds like it might need work).
These are the car’s option codes:
516 Becker Grand Prix LMKUU
565 rear seat, sideways
600 garnish mouldings on hardtop
641 whitewall tires
The reason I think the seat covers may not be original is the pleats don’t continue to the edges. Owners with original leather seats will have a more informed opinion on that.
It has a good stance with new Bilstein shock absorbers and at least some new suspension rubber.
So it might be a sound car but inspection is a good idea. And there will always be other good ones out there. Most 230s are 4-speed, and euro cars are reasonably common even in the US.
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I noticed it has a 280SL speedometer, or at least a 280SL reset knob on the speedometer. A little strange.
And a non-original toolkit but that doesn’t matter.
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I noticed it has a 280SL speedometer, or at least a 280SL reset knob on the speedometer.
Dave,
What is different about a "280SL speedometer"? I know about the different knobs styles for radio, fan speed, window cranks, etc., but have never heard about an odometer reset knobs difference.
EDIT: Looking again at the photos, it does look curious to me! Also at the bottom of the multi-gauge cluster is the dash light dimmer knob. This one is metal and I'm 99% sure mine is plastic. My car is up on the lift, but I'll try to get photos today, since this car is only about 280 cars older than mine, according to VIN.
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The pleats on the seat were not changed until 280 SL VIN ending in 13417.
The early style trip odometer reset knob (and the rheostat) was at least in place to 1966 230 SL. I have attached a snip from a photo from Paul Phipp's car (he is the original owner BTW).
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Looking at this pic of a good 1965 car, it looks to me like the reset on rectangular gauge may be original but missing the black cap shroud that goes over it. The top of the metal shows through the black cap and looks the same as the one for sale.
The knob on the Speedo does look later - possibly just put on it rather than the whole unit changed.. The dealer said it’s TMU as the odometer was not working but now does having been repaired - whether that means replaced (with a 280 unit) or just repaired and a new black knob put on it is hard to say!!
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Here are replacement ones (not sure why gold looking?)
https://www.authenticclassics.com/Reset-Knob-for-Speedometer-mercedes-230SL-280SL-p/auth-007979.htm
I wonder if the 280 knob is completely different or just a less pointy cover introduced along with all the other softer edged items for increased safety over time.
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Hello Richard, if you haven't looked on here before, it's a good reference site for originality, well worth a look
If you scroll down on this particular car it shows the later soft touch buttons on both the speedometer and cluster
https://www.motoringinvestments.com/1971-mercedes-280sl-906-blue/
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The pleats on the seat were not changed until 280 SL VIN ending in 13417.
OK I am pleased to say I was wrong about the seat covers too. They are original not replacements. The attached photo shows an identical set from this 1966 car: https://www.carandclassic.com/auctions/1966-mercedes-benz-230sl-w113-43qA2g
So I kind of like the car, notwithstanding the substandard fender replacement and the potential for further rust (Brad is right, that spot above the washer pump doesn't look good). It still seems a fairly big price to me. Like most dealer cars.
I'm sure the gold appearance of those Authentic Classics replacement reset knobs is just the photo, they'd be silver color.
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This is great! I never knew about the later thicker reset knobs! I bet the speedo rebuilder just used what he had. And this metal knob is just missing its plastic.
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From what i've read, the 230's, 250's and early 280's seat covers should be pleated right to the front of the seat pad and to the top of the seat backs, these stitched pleats were introduced with the later 280's
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=30625.msg222100#msg222100
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This car looks to have serious rust issues, some appear to be visibly hidden with fiberglass which is the worst repair one can attempt, and truly signs of shotty work. Who knows how much more rust is hidden with bondo and undercoating. The pictures miss the most important areas to look. I would absolutely stay away from this car without a thorough inspection on a lift by someone with a magnet and significant knowledge of where to look for hidden or covered rust on these cars.
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I see, you are right Bob, these stitched-together seat covers are later replacements. I misunderstood what Jonny was saying. If Jonny and Achim and Aaron agree on something then it is correct!
The tex endures so much better.
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John & Brad are probably right here. Rust hidden by new and not so good bodywork and paint.
Better cars out there.
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Thank you thelews for the rec - Don Drabik and his son Scott looked over the car for me and spent nearly 2 hours at it according to the dealer.
They have given me a lot of details and sent a couple of initial pictures before sending a full report.
Overall when I asked Don if it was a car he would walk away from or buy, he said, buy.
As we had all noted the front fenders have been replaced, however he judged this was a very long time ago possibly when still in Germany in '81. He thought the inner wings were likely original and it turned out that what we all thought might be rust on the drivers side inner was some kind of very old bondo like material that had been thinly spread inside he thought to maybe cover some of the welding, He didn't think there is rust in the fenders and that they were entirely solid though obviously not done to any restoration standard. The hood has the matching body number from the build sheet and they thought it was in lovely condition. It has a dent on the passenger side which he thought could maybe be sucked out (does anyone have experience with that?)
He sent photo of one panel gap around the hood being slightly wide, but the other side was better and the overall looked okay,
He felt the year old paint was in many ways the disapointment in that while it looks okay at 40ft, they'd only masked off and not even painted inside the door jambs - also of course no fender notches. There was also scratching on the front bumper which he thought came from someone sanding the paint who'd managed to sand the bumper top too (I'm not sure if this could be buffed out or would need rechroming..) The color isn't correct either as it has too much flake in the mettalic compared to MB Bronze Brown. (Does anyone have experience of sanding down paint, before taking off the chrome and doing a decent respray including the door jambs as opposed to a full bare metal respray?)
The trunk rust was surface and he said that even in a full restoration you'd keep this solid trunk floor with original spotwelds not replace it - just needs cleaning up and protecting. They also didn't have a problem with the footwells which seemed solid though covered in loads of underseal. There was evidence of moisture in the footwell which was likely from the air inlet above. He thought there is a perished rubber piece in there / blocked drainage holes that need to be replaced. He also said the seals around the soft top well need replacement with a huge gap that would just let in water seen in a picture.
Underneath it is leaking oil though he said they all tend to - he thought it would benefit from the oil pan gasket being changed.
Also he mentioned changing the plastic parts as the gear shifter as they were sloppy feeling which is done through the access panel in the transmission tunnel.
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Additional images
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That sounds more encouraging..
I see the Drabnik shop does body restorations on period Mercedes, so their opinion should be reliable.
You didn't say anything about the running and driving but I assume that was ok.
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Let us know the outcome!
Yes oil leaks are common, hopefully it is only the oil pan and not the rear main seal like mine. Be aware the torque specification for the oil pan bolts is quite low, cranking them higher or uneven might cause another leak.
Yes sloppy shifting and wandery steering can most often be fixed inexpensively with new plastic bushings.
It is a shame about the paint and the overdone metallic. It would have been a cheaper and better car without the repaint. But it looks nice.
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I think a non-bare metal sand and repaint is a common way to go and can be fine, as long as the original metal/primer bond is not compromised and the new paint is compatible. Many cars seem to have checking through the paint and primer where the front fenders meet the bulkhead and where the rear fenders meet the body behind the rear corners of the hardtop. That would be at least one spot (four spots) to pay attention to.
Really probably better to leave it alone and just use it. Otherwise you will be over 100 thousand dollars before you know it.
If it is your car of course.
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I think you're right about the paint Dave - best to just drive it. I do think seals around the soft top box, doors and trunk ought to be replaced. I'm not sure if that's an expensive job or not!
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Mercedes seals are quite expensive. The seals you list might total $1000 (guessing). Aftermarket seals are available but member's experience suggests they don't fit or seal or last as well as genuine.
Did you buy the car? You still didn't say :) If so, congratulations, and I hope any surprises are + not -
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Thanks Dave, just doing the financing now, but as long as that goes through then yes! 🤞🏻
I catalogued the issues with the car and they dropped 10% off the asking price. At just about 54k it’s still overpriced and I could probably have pushed for more, but life’s too short and I can afford the payments which is what matters 😂 Now just hope it’s as mechanically honest as it seems.
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Richard,
Whatever happens mechanically, we'll be here to help. I know you talked about having a mechanic, but if you're mechanically inclined at all then basic maintenance can be done by you with basic tools. And, you'll get to know your car better and therefore be able to communicate more clearly with your mechanic about specific details, parts, or problems.
Search our Forums for discussions on shipping services in order to get your car home safely. That is, unless you're going to be brave and take that one-way flight to Michigan and drive home!!