Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: K-Jet on January 29, 2024, 01:15:06
-
Good evening!
My car is currently only reading 30 psi at cold idle. I am hesitant to drive it or even run the motor. When I first noticed the oil pressure, the car was fully warm and at highway speed. Then also it was 30 psi.
Background information- this is a newly rebuilt 2.8 installed in a 1971 280SE. The installation was completed the day before the movers arrived. Before first startup, we got full pressure (45 psi +) just from the starter. After startup, the car ran poorly, but with good oil pressure. The motor has about 400 miles on it now.
What has happened since then?
1. The car was shipped across the ocean (container shipping).
2. I removed and flushed the fuel injectors to improve running performance.
3. When jacked by the front suspension cradle, the jack slid forward, dishing the oil pan. The jack had a hockey puck on top, so there are no sharp creases, but the pan is dished at the center.
So, yes I feel really stupid. Assuming occurrence number 3 is causing this problem, would straightening the pan likely solve this, or is there likely oil pump damage as well? When I open it up, how would I evaluate what I am seeing?
Or should I look elsewhere first?
Many thanks.
Dru
1971 280SE
1990 250D
1995 220TE
-
thats where oil pump is. its possble you cracked it hence the drop in oil pressure. worth removing oil pan and check damage.
-
Remove the oil filter and break it open. Check to see if you have any metal debris in the folds. If so remove the sub oil pan and check for metal debris in the pan and oil pump intake screen.
-
Will do.
If the oil filter is clean, what then?
-
I would still drop the pan and investigate. Can anyone think of a way to confirm clearance between pan and pump? And, what clearance would be appropriate?
-
Or is it possible to straighten the pan? If so, how?
What specifically am I looking for when I inspect the oil pump for damage?
-
If the oil pan is dented inwards, with it removed you would put a block of wood on the inside of the dent and use a large hammer to beat it outwards until smooth. A new oil pan can be purchased for $50, whether you fix the old one or replace don't forget to install a new oil pan gasket.
-
And you can search this site for discussions about oil pans. MB used slightly different versions over time, but only sells one version now. Get what's right for your car, or just make sure you know what you're getting. Knowledge is power!
-
This thread, I think you mean.
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=7962.0 (https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=7962.0)
-
If your oil pan was damaged, you definitely need to repair and inspect for internal damage as suggested.
-
This thread, I think you mean.
Bingo! Great info and pics. Even shows the oil pump pickup. Good luck, hope you don't have any serious issues.
-
You could put a thin layer of grease on the bottom of the pump screen and put the oil pan back in position. After pulling it off again if there’s any grease on the pan you know it’s touching.
I’d inspect the entire pump assembly. Maybe you cracked the oil pump case. You can try moving it with your hands maybe.
-
I've been sick the last little while and haven't made much progress.
I now have an external oil pressure gauge and will briefly confirm the dash gauge idle pressure reading first.
-
Finally some progress tonight, as I was ready to spend a few hours in the garage. I was unable to use the external oil pressure gauge, as it did not have a 9 x 1.5 mm fitting. I did check and reroute the oil pressure gauge line and reseat the fitting on the end (I may have had the fitting in backwards before), but the gauge reading was no better.
After this I removed the pan, had a look at the oil pump, and removed the oil filter.
1. The oil pump-I'm not sure what I'm looking for, but there is no damage obvious to me. The body is solid without any deformation, dents or fractures.
-
2. The oil filter element- the special one for newly rebuilt motors.
Is there a lot here or a little? The motor spent the better part of two years getting built, so some airborne fluff wouldn't surprise me. I couldn't feel anything in the pleats. But again, I don't have long experience here.
The oil sample is on the way to Blackstone.
And I apologize. Evidently I once knew how to embed pictures, but now do not.
-
3. And the oil pan.
I am really hoping that mark on the inside of the oil pan means that oil's access to the pump was simplyimpeded and straightening the pan will straighten the problem.
What are the chances of that? Or where else should I be looking?
Many thanks for your help.
-
What does the pick up on the oil pump look like? Make sure it is not cracked, or bent. The oil filter looks normal for a recently rebuilt engine.
-
What does the pick up on the oil pump look like? Make sure it is not cracked, or bent. The oil filter looks normal for a recently rebuilt engine.
Pictures of the pickup are in post 13 as attachments (I evidently don't know how to make pictures in line with my posting). Is there a particular view that would show more than what I can see there?
-
Pictures of the pickup are in post 13 as attachments (I evidently don't know how to make pictures in line with my posting). Is there a particular view that would show more than what I can see there?
Hi K-Jet,
you cannot take .heic photo's taken with an iPhone and then just change the name to ".jpeg" and upload them. The .heic image format is too new and is not recognised as a picture. You need to convert them to jpg format before uploading (and reduce their size somewhat), as you have clearly done correctly on your later posts!
I've done it for you... so scroll up/down and see pictures of the pick-up.
-
With new pans available for under $50, I suggest you replace the pan. Even if you can beat the dent out it's likely to leak and the cosmetics will be terrible.
Fingers crossed that fixing the pan solves the problem!
Cheers,
CT
-
The oil pump clearly bumped up against the bottom of the sub pan. I would get a new one if it's available.
-
that big semi-circle could mean low flow, worth getting a new pan.
-
K-Jet
While rebuilding the engine I replaced my lower oil pan with the newest version. I replaced the oil pump as well and to find a proper clearance I measured the pump protrusion out of the upper oil pan, than check the depth of the new lower pan. I add few millimeters to allow for proper flow. Why did I go through all this trouble? Well, there are several different pickups. They all look very similar but their reach, angle and height are slightly different. I used the latest pump version (from M130) with the older pickup assembly. No rubber extension.
I’m not posting the measurements here as different parts combinations will very the final height/clearance. This step needs to be performed by you.
-
Here is the example of the earlier pickup with the rubber extension for deeper reach.
Please note, strainer assembly itself is way shallower.
-
I'd start with getting a new pan on and seeing what the oil pressure is after that. It does look like with that dent the flow was impeded which a new pan might solve for and no need for a new oil pump.
New oil pumps seem in short supply, at high prices ($1,675?).
-
K-Jet
While rebuilding the engine I replaced my lower oil pan with the newest version. I replaced the oil pump as well and to find a proper clearance I measured the pump protrusion out of the upper oil pan, than check the depth of the new lower pan. I add few millimeters to allow for proper flow. Why did I go through all this trouble? Well, there are several different pickups. They all look very similar but their reach, angle and height are slightly different. I used the latest pump version (from M130) with the older pickup assembly. No rubber extension.
I’m not posting the measurements here as different parts combinations will very the final height/clearance. This step needs to be performed by you.
I can conceptualize how to calculate the clearance between the pickup and the pan. Is there a specification for that? Do you have a recommendation?
The oil pump clearly bumped up against the bottom of the sub pan. I would get anew one if it's available.
New, deeper pan means also new rubber surround as well, right? Is there a part number handy for that?
I intend to go to work with some wood blocks, a hammer and a large clamp and see what I can do. I can have an answer on this pan before it's possible to order another.
-
I think that's a good idea to beat it back to shape and see if it makes a difference in pressure.
-
I replaced my oil pan because it was damaged. Maybe not as bad as yours but still significantly enough to cause flow issues. My other concern was the mating surface to the upper pan. Someone before me attempted to fix that by adding another gasket. Needless to say he failed miserably. As for the pump, I replaced it because it had a hairline crack, probably happened at the same time as the pan damage.
I would remove the pump, inspect it and if all is good put it all back together with the new oil pan and gasket. Nothing to worry about. As Joe mentioned earlier it will take little more oil to achieve correct level with the new (deeper) pan in place. No need to worry about rubber attachment at the bottom of the strainer as your reference point (dipstick) position has not changed in relation to the oil pickup.
https://www.autohausaz.com/pn/1230100028
At $44 bucks you can’t go wrong. Although I would definitely get a better quality gasket. V.R. are hit and miss.
-
Maximum oil pump dangle: 64.6 mm
Minimum lower oil pan depth before adjustment: 61.4 mm
Minimum lower oil pan depth after adjustment: 72.1mm
Result: Nearly ionstant 3+ bar pressure at startup, maintained in driving. Problem solved! Thank you all so much for your help, experience, advice, and company. ;D
Next:
- Awaiting new replacement pan to install at next oil change
- The new engine runs poorly. As a next step, I need a shop that will clean injectors and MFI pump. I haven't found anyone local, and my MercedesSource tester filled my nearly new injectors with crap. Suggestions or recommendations? The pump was rebuilt recently but sat two years on a shelf not well protected enough.
-
Have you tried pulling spark plug wires one at a time to see if you can isolate the roughness to one or more cylinder?
If it is you might have a stuck piston in the FIP which you can fix. There’s other posts regarding that fix.
-
Wire brushing spark plugs made a huge difference. The idle is still a bit lumpy, but we're definitely running on all cylinders. I may go back and pull the plug wires one by one just to be sure....
Now to research the belt squealing problem.
-
Maximum oil pump dangle: 64.6 mm
Minimum lower oil pan depth before adjustment: 61.4 mm
Minimum lower oil pan depth after adjustment: 72.1mm
The "adjustment" is hammering out the pan?
I need a shop that will clean injectors and MFI pump. I haven't found anyone local, and my MercedesSource tester filled my nearly new injectors with crap. Suggestions or recommendations? The pump was rebuilt recently but sat two years on a shelf not well protected enough.
How did the injector tester introduce foreign material (crap) into the injectors?
Why do you think there's a problem with the MFI pump? Did you see something or test something?
I'm just saying, don't make assumptions.
-
The adjustment is hammering out the pan between wood blocks.
I'm not sure if it's rust or decaying seals (probably rust, as the test pump still makes pressure), but several of my injectors tested beautifully for a second or two before clogging. Backflushing afterward yielded black grainy goop of various particle sizes.
The injectors were bought at the same time the 2.8 pump was rebuilt and calibrated. The new injectors were subsequently installed to clear up its running problems on the 2.5 motor that was installed in the car. However, the 2.8 injection pump sat in an open cardboard box on a shelf for two years.
Given the sensitivity of the entire MFI system to contamination, it was unwise to let the pump sit that way, and it may help clear my sputtering idle and poor cold running. These problems were greatly helped by cleaning the spark plugs, so I will probably leave the injectors and pump alone for the time being. But better to look for help before you need it, right?
-
Oh, so the rust in the injectors came from running them in the 2.5 motor. I thought you meant it came from using the MercedesSource tester kit (with which you would only use known clean fuel). Bottom line, if the injectors have been back flushed (I'd like to understand how that process works!) and are now clean, and that pump that set on the shelf a while is now on the M130 and working fine, then I'd just use it as-is, keep the fuel system as clean as possible, and see if problems arise. You mention cleaning the pump. I'm not sure what preventative maintenance you can do now, but if there is some, then members here will chime in.
-
No. They ran fine for two years in the 2.5 motor. In investigating them as a problem source in the 2.8 motor, they started out with the nice whistle then clogged after a second or so of opening.
Backflushing is fairly simple. Pull open the business end of the injector with a soft thin metal tool or thin string, then use a syringe and tube to force cleaning fluid backwards through the injector. There's nothing ultrasonic or high-tech in the approach. I don't know how the effectiveness compares to what professionals do.