Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: bpossel on June 28, 2006, 17:03:10
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Hello All!
I am thinking about doing some fuel pump maintenance. In particular, I am thinking about removing the filter and cleaning it. From what I have read, it seems that I need to remove the pump in order to get a good grip on the nut to remove the filter.
George, and or others... here are my questions:
1. Do I need to remove the pump in order to remove and clean the filter?
2. Is cleaning the "correct" way to go, or should I replace the filter?
3. Who sells the filter?
4. What other things should I watch for? Tips and tricks?
Thanks All!
Bob
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/bpossel/20064268914_280sl.jpg)
bpossel (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL / '97 E320
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Bob,
I've only removed the inlet and outlet fittings with the pump removed, but I'm sure if you are very careful in not destroying the pump rubber mounts that you can get to them off with the pump still mounted. I find the pump much easier to grip and easier to apply force to the fittings with the pump out. I have not been able to find the inlet screens new. I have it on my list of things to check out with SLS and others to see if they can source from Bosch--not sure they (Bosch) will sell directly. The same inlet screen is used on both style pumps. I have not seen many screens that are so bad, though, that they actually need to be replaced. They are fairly easy to clean. All that being said, I have damaged some of these screens beyond repair in the process of trying to remove them from the fitting preparatory to glass beading the fitting and mounting plate. I suspect others have damaged them in much the same way.
George Des
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Hello Bob,
The screen is part of the intake fitting of the fuel pump. Follow the line from the gas tank to the electric fuel pump. The fitting which the hose is clamped on is the one with the filter screen. Early version 230SLs with their original electric fuel pumps may not have these screens.
Be prepared to clamp off fuel lines to prevent a major spill. You man need to unfasten the metal schroud around the fuel pump. I use a air impact to remove the fitting while the pump is on the car. This is about the only way without removing the pump. The problem is the pump is suspended by those little rubber mounts and you'll break them all up from the strain of removing the fitting with a wrench. An air impact works good. Do not use an electric impact! Too much chance of fire!
You can clamp off fuel lines to prevent spills with needle nose vice grips if your fuel lines are in good shape. If your fuel lines are old and brittle be prepared to change them, they will not survive the trama. Make sure to have something to hold fuel, something to soak up spills, some new fuel line and clamps and a fire extinguisher.
Its best to do fuel work in the well ventilated outdoors. Be even aware of static electric discharge.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Hi Joe, George!
Thanks for the information. Looks like I will remove the pump and simply (and carefully) clean the mesh filter. I replaced my tank and IP Pump a couple of years ago, and am now really curious if any "crud" is on the mesh. Something I should have looked at when the tank was out. I will try and take some photos and post.
Hope everyone has a wonderful upcoming holiday weekend!
Bob
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/bpossel/20064268914_280sl.jpg)
bpossel (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL / '97 E320
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quote:
Originally posted by bpossel
Hi Joe, George!
Thanks for the information. Looks like I will remove the pump and simply (and carefully) clean the mesh filter. I replaced my tank and IP Pump a couple of years ago, and am now really curious if any "crud" is on the mesh. Something I should have looked at when the tank was out. I will try and take some photos and post.
Hope everyone has a wonderful upcoming holiday weekend!
Bob
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/bpossel/20064268914_280sl.jpg)
bpossel (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL / '97 E320
Hey Bob,
Before removing the pump, take the hose off and use an artists brush to probe around in the inlet connection.
Take it out and if it is covered in gunk then you know it will need cleaning.
Here is a pic of the fitting on the old style pump.
Maybe you could remove the whole fitting with the 4 screws. Then when the filter is clean use a new o-ring to seal it.
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Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
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I just cleaned the inlet filter on my 280SE. Removed the pump and clamped it in a vise using 1/2" softwood pads. Removed filter fitting. Hard to see how any gas got to the engine. Soaked it overnight in carb cleaner and hosed it off. Looked good as new.
Chuck Taylor
107 Addict
Falls Church VA
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Finally got around to remove my fuel pump today. Pump was easy to remove. Clamped all hoses, etc. and removed pump shield, then pump. With the pump in a vise, took a bit of force to remove the filter. WOW! I could not believe how much "crap" was in the small filter. Not sure how my car even ran. See attached pics of before and after. It was similar to cleaning a coffee filter full of coffee granules. Note: I purchased my car over 2 years ago and replaced my gas tank w/new at that time, and also had Hans rebuild my injection pump. Also, at the Tech Session last summer in Ohio, Joe tested my fuel pressure and it was on the low side, but as I recall, still within spec. Overall, car has been running very well.
I am currently in watching the shuttle launch (count down) and have not put the pump back on, but very anxious to re-install and see if engine starts, runs smoother.
Even if I don’t notice any difference, this is still a very overdue maintenance item on my car...
Regards,
Bob
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) before.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/bpossel/200674141641_before.jpg)
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(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/bpossel/20064268914_280sl.jpg)
bpossel (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL / '97 E320
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Bob,
Your picture give a pretty good idea of how this build up can block the fuel flow. It also gives a strong hint on what can cause the older pumps to go bad, especially the ones that do not have an inlet filter screen and I've come across many. My guess is that early pumps on all the FI models came this way and that DB may have received a lot of complaints so the inlet screens were added later in production by Bosch. This same crud gets between the sealing surfaces of the main bellows seal and wears the surfaces so they don't seal anymore. Also the build up can "lock up" the vane and when power is put to the pump it overheats and burns out the windings. Trying to "unfreeze" the vane often leads to breaking the small tang on the seal driving washer which leads to the shaft spinning in the bellows seal with attendant leakage though the main shaft o-ring. Point is, this crud is very bad for the fuel feed pumps--old or new. I'll leave it to Hans and others to describe what it can do further down stream if it gets past the fuel feed pump.
George Des
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My fuel pump has no such screen, very early 230sl.
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Hello Bob and all others - - I think I need to go on record here and suggest a quick REALITY CHECK !
Bob, you would not be seeing that kind of crud accumulation in the filter unless your tank is well along the way to being completely rusted through. When you see rust scale like that, think of the old cliche goes " - - there is more where that came from - - ". You are not fixing the problem and eventually you will start smelling gas fumes because the top of the tank will finally rust through. I know this because it happened on mine. I urge you to drop the tank and have a look at the interior of it.
Regards, Larry in CA
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Hi Larry,
I agree! However, in my case, I replaced my tank, with a brand new MB tank shortly after I purchased the car. I should have performed the fuel pump filter cleaning at that time, but I didnt know there was a filter in the pump at that time and have put this maintanence off for too long! When I replaced the tank, I also had my fuel injection pump rebuilt.
The reason that I replaced my tank is that the previous owner did the tank re-liner route, vs replacing. When I went to fill up the tank for the 1st time, I noticed a "skin" like material peeling at the opening of the tank, by the fill area. I knew that if I didnt replace the tank w/new, that I would be fighting the rust, crud issue and never being pleased with the perfomrance of that car.
So, I agree, if you see this much "crud" in the fuel filter screen, you have bigger issues... basically, need a new tank at a cost of 800-900 bucks.
Regards,
Bob
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/bpossel/20064268914_280sl.jpg)
bpossel (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL / '97 E320
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Hello Bob,
Nice photos of the electric fuel pump and fuel pump screen! Yes it is amazing what you find in these fuel systems. They seem to be very resilient! The three layers of screening and filtration work well. Water in the fuel then left to set, seems to do the most damage to the system.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Hello Bob,
Nice photos of the electric fuel pump and fuel pump screen! Yes it is amazing what you find in these fuel systems. They seem to be very resilient! The three layers of screening and filtration work well. Water in the fuel then left to set, seems to do the most damage to the system.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Sorry to resurrect this discussion, but I'd like to join the fray!
I've been cleaning out my fuel lines and filters this weekend. Specifically, the tank screen (was fairly clean), replacing fuel filter (gunky!), blowing air through the feed and return lines (forward-to-rear), and passing some old guitar (bass-E) strings through the internal fuel-tank lines to/from the "flower-pot" (with kind permission of the Dr Benz). My last task was to clean out the fuel pump screen, and I discovered I had the old-style fuel pump. Is it true that NO old-style pumps had screens? Can a screen fitting from a new-style filter be used on an old-style filter inlet? (do the threads match?)
I removed both inlet and outlet fittings to look inside the lower housing. Upon closer inspection, the outlet fitting (connected to engine side of pump) contained some kind of loose metal plate or mesh (I couldn't tell). Is this normal? I tried to take a picture, but it's not quite clear. Any ideas?
http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/Waqas/200692542223_old-style-fuel-pump.jpg
WAQAS in Austin, Texas
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WAQAS,
Many of the earliest large style pumps did not contain the inlet screen. I'm not sure when Bosch started adding these to these pumps, but I have noted that most of the ones with a screw type inlet fitting do not have it. The screen is exactly the same for both the large and small type pump, so if you're lucky enough to find a screen in good shape on a salvage small style pump, it is a simple press on fit to the inlet side fitting. I took a look at your picture and what you have off is the outlet side fitting. I think what you are calling a metal plate is actually the check valve that prevents fuel from flowing back into the pump.
George Des
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Of course! A check valve makes perfect sense... thanks!
The picture was indeed of the outlet fitting, and I was trying to show the newly-identified check valve. The inlet fitting did not have a screen attached to it, but I was wondering if there was some other screen within the pump...... I gather not, from your post....
So on to my next question: assuming I can find a salvage new-style pump's filter screen/fitting (which is unlikely at the moment), once attached to the old-style pump inlet fitting, will the screen interfere with anything (impeller, etc) inside the old-style pump? I haven't opened my pump... no reason to...
Thanks for sharing all this valuable info!
WAQAS in Austin, Texas
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WAQAS,
No, the screen is a direct fit to the inlet fitting and will not interfere with the impeller which is actually in a separate chamber from the inlet and outlet fittings.
George Des
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Hi George, it's kind of you to have a 'live chat' with me regarding 40-tear-old fuel pumps at 5:40am CST! :D
So, do you know if this screen (or entire fitting w/screen) is available separately from D-C?
Thanks again,
WAQAS in Austin, Texas
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If available, I think it would be directly from Bosch. I have not contacted them so I don't know for sure. The inlet and outlet fittings are available from SLS. The outlet fitting w/integral ck valve is fairly expensive. I've purchased the inlet valves--fairly cheap-- and they come w/o the screen. I have not asked SLS if they can supply the screens, but it may be worth a try if you cna't find one otherwise.
George Des
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Thanks for the lead... I'll send SLS an email (I don't see it as an extra part in their online catalogue). If available, this would probably be a much better solution than trying to place a non-standard in-line filter between the tank and the old-style pump... avoiding any issues with fuel flow etc.
Kind regards,
WAQAS in Austin, Texas
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I have a pump that has blown its fuse (8a) twice in quick succession !
I thought I had an ammeter hgere but it seems someone borrowed it and never gave it back (again !). Anyway I was about to remove it and open it up to check the brushes and the commutator, and repair/replace as neccesary, also checking the bearings for smoothness along the way !
Anybody had this problem or can throw any further light on it ??
Do you guys reckon the above repairs should sort out the problem ?
BTW the car starts and runs fine but dont trust it to drive anywhere but around the lot ! Also I removed all fuses and cleaned the corrosion and cleaned the connections at the pump and the fuse has been okay since but..........
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
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Hello Ben,
You might want to test the fuel pump by itself before you start opening it up. You can do this by placing a fuse directly in series with the positive terminal and the battery. If the fuse never blows, then it might be a temperamental short-circuit somewhere else in the wiring from the fuse-box to the fuel-pump.
Be careful when working around fuel vapour while messing with loose wiring, as sparking may occur. Make sure wiring is secure before applying power.
I hate tracking down temperamental short-circuits, as they never appear when you're looking.... :evil:
WAQAS in Austin, Texas
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben
I have a pump that has blown its fuse (8a) twice in quick succession !
I thought I had an ammeter hgere but it seems someone borrowed it and never gave it back (again !). Anyway I was about to remove it and open it up to check the brushes and the commutator, and repair/replace as neccesary, also checking the bearings for smoothness along the way !
Anybody had this problem or can throw any further light on it ??
Do you guys reckon the above repairs should sort out the problem ?
BTW the car starts and runs fine but dont trust it to drive anywhere but around the lot ! Also I removed all fuses and cleaned the corrosion and cleaned the connections at the pump and the fuse has been okay since but..........
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
Hey Ben,
The Problem may not be with the pump but the wiring.
I would disconnect the wires from the pump and test by replacing the fuse and switching the ignition on.
Alternately use a multimeter to test if the pump +VE terminal has a direct short to earth.
If the coils of the pump are burnt out they can be rewound by a motor rewinding company. This has to be a lot cheaper than a new fuel pump.
It could be that the brushes are badly worn.
When I rebuilt my pump (with sage advice from guru George Des) I did not replace the brushes because they were still about 25mm long.
The local Bosch place had replacement brushes for about $25.00 a set.
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
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Ben,
When everything is operating correctly with these pumps under load, they draw anywhere from 3.1 to 3.5 amps. Check yours out with an amp meter. If the circuit is drawing more than that make sure you don't have any other consumers drawing through that fuze--the pump should be the only consumer (radio or other accessory)-- or a possible short someplace. If the load is heavier than 3.5 and you can't find a short or another consumer, you may have a pump with possible seized/tight bearings, worn brushes or crud in the vane chamber that is causing some internal resistance--this you can rectify by dismantling the pump and replacing the bearings, brushes, etc. There are many posts on the board on how to do this. With age, these pumps also tend to have considerable carbon build up in the motor section from the wearing of the brushes. This combined with any fuel leakage into the motor chamber forms a thick black paste that really plays havoc with the lower ball bearing. Hope this helps.
George Des
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Thanks guys for the help and advice...........I should tell you where I am at........this car had its feul injection system removed completely some years ago, and has been running on Gas ( not petrol) for some years. The current owner asked me to convert it back, so having amassed the various parts required, I removed the fuel tank and had it boiled & sealed, replaced the fuel pipes and clips, fitted the injection pump and built up the WRD.
I also repaired the CSV and removed the electric pump for cleaning & testing. I opened the end plate and was surprised to find a very clean impeller. I ran diesel through the pump and tested the output and pressure which were all very good. Because of this I decided not to open the pump any further so I fitted it to the car.
The car starts and runs fine but as I said, I drove it about 1 mile and returned and whilst idling it stopped and the fuse was blown. This happened once again after a similar drive.All the fuses looked bad so I changed some and cleaned them all.
Since I am in the electric motor business pulling the pump and replacing the brushes and bearings wont be a problem so I think I'll do that tonight and rule it out properly.
If it happens again all I can do is run a fresh wire from the original fuse back to the pump !
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
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Hi Folks,
With all this talk about filters, screens, etc. I'd like to offer some sage advice: Don't Forget the Wiring!!
With all my recent issues the fuel pump has been suspect for some of them. As luck would have it (it pays to know people at Bosch) a new one showed up on my doorstep without an invoice. But that's another story...anyway, I began the process of swapping out the old pump for the new...AFTER disconnecting the battery:
1) Have a tray to catch the fuel that will pour out of the intake line until you can fit the hose on the new pump fitting and clamp it down, and wear gloves!
2) Unless you changed them recently, get a set of 3 new rubber mounting studs. One they seize themselves on, you might need to break them to get them off. Part # 126.988.00.11 List $4.20 each. Only one of mine survived. Have these BEFORE you start!
3) Check the wiring! As my old pump was dangling there by the hoses after removing the mounting hardware, one of the leads simply came out of one of those blasted $#@%^&* crimp connectors. Apparently at some point during the restoration or subsequent service, somebody cut the wires under the car, butt-crimped new pigtails on them, and then connected to the pump. This is bad, very bad. Butt crimp connectors should never be used outside, exposed to the weather! The crimp didn't hold and I'm sure this was the cause of some intermittant problems.
4) The repair was easy: I took new cable BACK to the wiring harness in the trunk. Now there are no crimps outside the car. the ring connectors I used were crimped AND soldered. Hopefully this is better and will last a while.
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
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Regarding fuel spillage while swapping the pumps, I've found hose clamps to be invaluable (locking pliers may also be used, but you may want to put some padding in the jaws so the hose is not damaged). And its always nice to have new hoses on hand, as one might find an old cracking hose waiting to fall apart on contact.
One thing you left out in your list: new rubber boots for the fuel pump connecting nuts, if they need to be replaced. These are pretty good at keeping out dust and moisture, while keeping the connections electrically isolated. SLS lists them for a couple Euros each.
WAQAS in Austin, Texas
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Ben,
I'm assuming from the age of your car that we are talking about the early large style pump. If so, make sure you read some of the earlier posts dealing with how to rebuild these. That lower bearing removal requires a complete disassembly of the pump and there are some definite disassembly details to be aware of regarding removal of the main shaft seal.
George Des
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Guys thanks for the advice, the hoses are new and I have sets of pipe clamps and a catch tray !
Actually the connectors were indeed previously doctored and one of the connections, a crimp type, was poor !
Still I dont think that would cause a high current situation. I have the pump off and it is the later, small type pump. So far it appears clean but I havent opened the electrical end yet..............any links to this would be appreciated as I have read about the larger pump and seent he photos but nothing on the smaller one !
Anyone ?? (I plan to do this later today ! )
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
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Ben,
The smaller pump is actually less complicated to deal with, but there are some details to be aware of as you will read in some of the past posts. There are no grooved ball bearings, so you can rule that out immediately. The motor portion of this pump is a "wet" motor--the armature runs in fuel-so it tends to be self cleaning as far as brush dust goes--this also cools and lubricates the brushes and armature. However, as with the larger pump, the smaller pump is still susceptible to crud binding the vane or the shims between the shaft and pump body corroding. Best bet though at this point is to pull pump off and get a read on how many amps it is drawing under load before pulling apart. It should be approximately the same draw as the larger pump.
George Des
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Yeah since I couldnt put my hand to the ammeter I pulled it apart anyway, as I want to know what its like and fit new brushes anyway !
I didn't manage to removew the "can" yet though...........any photos/how to steps would be appreciated since I dont want to ruin anything !!
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
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Ben,
Let me get back with you this evening. I may be able to get you some phots. Also, brush replacement on these pumps can be very difficult if you don't have the brushes with a recess cut into it to allow the shunt wire to fit under the brush holder. Interestingly enough, some of the brush kits supplied by MB do not have this recess cut into it making brush replacrment all but impossible. There is a way aroud that and being an electrical guy, I'm sure you can figure it out right away.
George Des
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Thanks George, I'm going to take a look at what I have right now, maybe take some photos myself !
I would welcome any photos either way !
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
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Okay so I've stripped it and the brushes still look fine ! The new ones DO have the groove but I decided against replacement since the existing ones have about 80-85% material left on there !
No point in exchanging these !
I cleaned up the comm and I hadn't realised that the bearings are really only bushes so having cleaned up whatever I could and fitted new seals I examined the windings and they look very dark !
Not what I expected, they do look burned, or else they are varnished !
So I put everything back together and ran the motor without the "pump" end attached and it coggs slightly and got very hot very quickly. I was surprised at this !
Not sure what to do now..........any thoughts or advice ?
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
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Ben
Sounds to me like something is binding the armature. Ck the "can" to see if there are any dents that may be causing this. Also look at the very top of the "can" where the shaft fits into it to see if the bushing is burred. If this cks okay go to the bottom part of the shaft and carefully pry out the e-clip, the thrust washer and shims. Ck to see if they are clean and burr free. Also the bushing where the shaft goes through. If this all cks out re-assemble and run the motor again. You need to be very careful when you tighten the two nuts that hold the "can" to the pump body. It is only necessary to tighten these enough to ensure that the rubber o-ring seals the "can". Overtigthening them can also be a source of binding. The armature is wound with varnished wiring--you may want to clean it up with some electric contact cleaner. Could be that it is caked with carbon paste or gasoline varnish causing it to run hot. If all this fails, the armature can be re-wound with a new commutator for about $75.00 U.S. This is still much cheaper than the cost of a new pump. Let me know if you decide to go this route and I'll pass on to you the info where you can get this done here in the U.S.. On another point, we may be talking about two different things on the brushes. There should be a horizontal groove that runs across the shunt end of the brush--this is where the wire brush spring rides. The shunt wire itself should be attached in a recessed portion of the top of the brush so as to allow the brush and shunt wire to slip through the metal brush holder. As I mentioned, some of the repair brushes I've gotten from MB do not have this recessed shunt wire and it makes it virtually impossible to flatten the wire sufficiently to allow fitting it into the brush holder. Good luck
George Des
george Des
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Thanks George, I see what you mean about the brush groove, but the new ones are identical.
I will clean out the bearing bushes and the shims. I'll give the windings a shot of cleaner and I'll get an ammeter today, reassemble and check it again !
We do a lot of work with a rewinder here in Dublin so worst case I'll talk to him !
Keep you all posted !
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
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Well having cleaned and checked everything, and reassembled the unit with new seals I ran it and it sounds fine and is drawing 2.5 amps !
Back on the car later for a test, after I replace the wiring terminals with some better quality items !
Thanks again folks !
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
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nope I'm back in the horrors again. The car ran fine for two days then it blew the fuse again. In fact the fuse looked as though it melted a little before blowing, which seems very strange.
I checked it just now whilst the engine was running and it is drawing 11 amps !!
Does this sound like a wring/earthing problem to anyone else ??
I was going to run fresh wires through a fuse direct to the pump and see what happens. I could then measure the draw and if all is okay I will hard wire it in correctly !
Any comments ?
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
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Ben,
My guess is that you have a short somewhere in the line. I'd first verify that the pump is the only feed you have off this fuze. Then I would take a close look at the wiring at the pump end to make sure it is not frayed there. The back wiring harness is separate from the front engine harness and you can unplug it from the main. On our cars over here the connection is on the left side right above the hood release mechanism. I would unplug and do a continuity test along with a current test to see what the pump draws from that part of the harness. This will help to isolate where the short or extra draw is coming from. From what you're telling us, it does not sound like a faulty pump--. Hope this helps.
George Des
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Okay an update, I have checked the wiring and the plugs and cleaned everything but did not see any issues.
So I ran a fresh earth to the pump and also a new power cable with a built in fuse. It blew immediately !
I removed the pump and tested it again on the bench and it sounds horrible, at one point it peaked to 19a !! I opened it but dont see anything different, it spins freely without power, but the windings are very burned looking.
There must be a breakdown in the motor windings somewhere. I could get it rewound but I think I'll try the option of a newer modern pump now !!
Anyone know the exact flow/pressure rate requirements, I know it 1ltr/15 seconds but what pressure is required ?
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
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Ben,
Sorry to hear this, but it sounds like you've found the problem. Based on your earlier current ck , I would have been certain the pump was okay. Were you running fuel through it when you took that reading ? If not that may have been the cause of the low reading. As I said earlier, you can have these armatures re-wound with a new comm for about $75. Let me know and I'll get the info to you if you decide to go that route.
George Des
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George the low reading was without fuel, but it was around 5.5a with the car running innitially which I thought would be okay but it obviously intermittantly rose well above that !!
I'm off now to collect a new small pump.............wish me luck, anmd thanks again !
BTW I will upload photos when finished !
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.