Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: al_lieffring on July 29, 2006, 09:20:40
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Wasn't that a song by The Knack in '79?
I haven't ever heard the term Pagoda used to refer to the entire series of 113 roadsters before. I only used it to refer to the object that was wrapped up in a blanket over in the corner of my garage when I was out driving around with the canvas top down. Most likely with The Knack blasting out from the Europa II's under dash casette player. I wonder what happened to that casette player. I bet I sold it at a garage sale for $3.00 or something stupid like that.
BTW I'm 49 years old today
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/al_lieffring/20061214105252_SigII.jpg)
113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket
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:D :D HAPPY BIRTHDAY AL!
1967 250SL Signal Red
1969 280SL "Tweety Bird Yellow"
1987 260E Charcoal
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Happy b day Al :)
Joel
1969 280sl auto
White exterior
Blue interior
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Happy birthday, Al. I think your comments about not knowing the name "Pagoda" are true for most Americans. That was a nickname primarily used in Europe for the W 113 SL.
One of the nice things about this group is that it has helped to increase the knowledge about this particular mode worldwide, right down to its nickname.
My personal opinion has always been that the car deserves to assume its place in history with a nickname, just like the W 198, aka "Gullwing."
Douglas Kim
New York
USA
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Happy Birthday Al,
I hope you are planning to take your Pogoda out of the garage and dive it around Athens so I can see it on the road
Daryl
Daryl
'64 230 SL
Serial # 508
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quote:
Originally posted by dwilli3038
Happy Birthday Al,
I hope you are planning to take your Pogoda out of the garage and dive it around Athens so I can see it on the road
Daryl
Daryl
'64 230 SL
Serial # 508
Hey Daryl
My younger son (Nicholas) is 18 and had decided that "we" should fix up the Pagoda so that he can drive it around.
First step will be pulling out the engine and replacing the piston rings.
Long story as to why, so anyhow it will be a while before it's wheeling around Athens, but stop by any time and have a look see.
Al Lieffring
113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket
-
Nick and I spent yesterday afternoon winching the powerplant out of the pagoda. It was 98deg under that shade tree.
Today we're off to the China import tool store to buy a motor stand and begin our tear down.
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/al_lieffring/2006819265_motorout.jpg)
113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket
-
Hello Al,
Keep us up to date on your engine tear down. We will help where we can!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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When I read Athens, I wondered if you meant Georgia. Then when I saw you hoisting the engine with a pine tree, I didn't have to ask.
Like Joe said, there's a lot of help here. Have fun.
Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe
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quote:
Originally posted by Raymond
Then when I saw you hoisting the engine with a pine tree,
Nick was nervous about if the tree would hold or not. Not about getting hurt, but about the tree falling on the car. It was only bending over about an inch or two. No oak trees with 6" dia branches around here, not in my back yard any way.
Building these engines (m127,m129,m130) was what I did for 15 years of my life, but I'm finding out just how much I have forgotten over the years since. It is kinda frustrating when I read some of the posts on the forum, knowing that I had fixed most of these problems before, but don't remember all of the details on how I did it.
having fun
Al Lieffring
113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket
-
quote:
Originally posted by al_lieffring
.... Building these engines (m127,m129,m130) was what I did for 15 years of my life, ...
Hello Al,
in a different topic you wrote "My father and I opened up a Benz repair shop in Kansas City and I specialized in 113 repairs and restorations"
I am curious, where was it and what was the shop called?
Regards from KC!
Alfred
1966 blue 230SL automatic
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quote:
Originally posted by 66andBlue
quote:
Originally posted by al_lieffring
.... Building these engines (m127,m129,m130) was what I did for 15 years of my life, ...
Hello Al,
in a different topic you wrote "My father and I opened up a Benz repair shop in Kansas City and I specialized in 113 repairs and restorations"
I am curious, where was it and what was the shop called?
Regards from KC!
Alfred
1966 blue 230SL automatic
Our shop was called Lieffring.
In 1976 we moved from a building by the Robo Car Wash in Waldo, to the vacant Faddas Chrysler building at 63rd and Main in Brookside.
It's now owned by Emery Zanagal and called Star Motors.
Al Lieffring
113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket
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hey Ya'll
Nick and I got the engine torn down, I've been trying to locate a set of piston rings, went to the local Benz dealer, they tried to be helpful but couldn't find any thing that showed up as available.
Maybee I'm looking for the wrong thing.
The engine I have is a factory replacement short block. I know that they were made with internal parts from later production engines, the longer 108 rods instead of the 127s. And the pistons fitted have a higher wrist pin bore, also 3 rings instead of 4.
So here is where I become confused the pistons are marked Mahle, have a Benz logo inside the skirt, on the top they are marked +.25 but when I measure the bore, the block is is the std. 82mm.
I found this table;
http://www.deves.com/devesrings/cars_MERCEDES_BENZ.html
This makes me wonder if this replacement short block came from the factory with M180 pistons (std. 81.75 bore) and are the first repair size to make them 82mm to match the M127's bore. , Do you think I could just find the set of rings I need? Or do I need to dig deep and buy a set of .5mm oversize pistons and go with a fresh rebore.
We are not out to do a "chrome and powder coat" restoration on this car, just want to get it running and looking presentable, so a little puff of smoke every now and then is'nt a big concern.
I know you guys like pics to look at,
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) broken ring.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/al_lieffring/200683163842_broken%20ring.jpg)
36.65 KB
Thanx
Al Lieffring
113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket
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Dan Caron has recommended Deeves piston rings in the past if you are just going for replacement rings, I would give them a call with your details and see what they suggest. There are also engine parts sellers (Metric Motors in California is one) that should be in a position to give good advice in your particular case, so maybe get a second opinion from them.
Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
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I got in touch with Mike at Metric Motors in California. And he confirmed my theory about the pistons being for a smaller bore 2.3l. engine and the oversize was to make them match the m127's stock bore. Pistons with a +.25mm bore are rarely used, because an engine with enough wear to need rebuilding will require a bore +.50mm or bigger.
So all I needed to do was measure the width of the ring grooves and now a complets set along with a new head gasket will be on its way Monday, via the big brown truck. The car hasn't been running for 20+ years, I didn't think I needed to pay extra for overnight delivery.
To me patience is a virtue, you might take a different view if you'r sitting behind me in traffic.
Going by the Deves chart would have been a best guess, that turned out to have been correct. But now I have the assurance that in fact this will work.
Thanks for the reccomendations
Al Lieffring
113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket
-
While Nick and I are waiting for the engine parts we started on repairing the front suspension and brakes. When I aired up the tires to load the car onto the trailer to move from Iowa to Georgia, The suspension stayed in the same position as the tires raised it up.
By putting a grease gun on all the fittings, I found that they all took grease except for the right upper outer. Because in the past I learned that this was the most likely point of failure I had the replacement adjuster/pivot kit on hand for both sides.
The camber cam bolt came out easily, they ususaly need to be cut out with a torch. There I found the castor adjustment pivot was frozen into the king-pin just as I had suspected.
I got the siezed pivot out by removing the king pin, puting it in the vise, then heated the top of the king-pin with a torch till it glowed orange. I tried turning the pivot with a pair of vise grips before it cooled, but it wouldnt budge so I put a 10mm bolt through the center hole and MIG welded it to the pivot. I put a little more heat on the king-pin then put an impact wrench on the bolt. The pivot started to turn right away, stoping at about 1/2 turn I reversed the impact and ran it in and out, each time it would turn a little further untill it was fully out. I didn't cool the part with water, let it cool on its own then went to reassemble with the new castor/camber/pivot kit.
Because the motor was out I had to come up with a way to get the front end back together without the weight of the motor to compress the spring. I started out by assembling the king pin steering knuckle and A arms without the spring in place, then took out the 4 lower inner controll arm bolts, reinstalled the spring, then I used a floor jack to get the arm back up as far as possible, this came to about 6 inches from the subframe before the front end came up off the stands. I then used 2 lengths of 7/16 all-thread about 8" long in place of two of the controll arm bolts, used them to pull the A arm the rest of the way up with an air ratchet, put bolts into the 2 open holes, removed the all thread, put the other 2 bolts in and then tightened them all down with the impact wrench. It realy made a tough job a lot simpler.
Monday we are going to repack the front wheel bearings and replace the front brake hoses. The right front brake was dragging. The caliper wouldn't retract untill I opened up the brake bleeder. So I'll be putting new brake hoses all around. Will tear into the rear brakes and parking brake cables later in the week.
Al Lieffring
113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket
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After I got the kingpins back to rights. I pulled the rotors off to repack the wheel bearings. The left rotor had been machined down so thin that even though over 1/2 of the lining is still on the pads, they are against the spring tab. The parts counter guys at the local Benz dealer are getting annoyed that I keep coming in to buy parts for this old a car. Even though the owner of the dealership is the father of one of Nick's best friends, I doubt we will be annoying them any more with our project.
After repacking the R. side bearings, we tore down the left side and found the bearings were pitted from sitting for so long. Because berings are bearings, I went to the NAPA store in Watkinsville hoping they could match up the numbers and order them, The woman at the counter poked at the computer for about 20 minuites but said she couldn't find them, she showed them to the guy that runs the store and he walked into the back and came right back out with 2 complete sets of bearings with the matching numbers.
The NAPA part numbers are:
BR2 for the outer
BR6 for the inner
This would indicate to me that these are a very common part on American RWD cars, I'm not sure which ones though.
I removed the grease seals by driving out the seal and the inner bearing cage together with a hammer handle Through the small bearing end. This will often remove the seals without damage and I was able to reuse them.
I'm still waiting on the front hoses from MB dealer, now I need to find a pair of rotors.
Does and one know, if the original (Girling?) calipers have been replaced with Tevis (ATE) do I need to get 230 rotors or the 250/280 rotors? Is that what is different or is it the hubs that are different?
Al Lieffring
113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket
-
Hello Al,
If I recall correctly, only the calipers are different and the original rotors will work with the later calipers.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Al,
The guys ere in Athens would not even talk to mme. I find much better cooperation from Atlanta Clasic car (near intersection of 316 and I85)
Daryl
'64 230 SL
Serial # 508
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quote:
Originally posted by al_lieffring
Does and one know, if the original (Girling?) calipers have been replaced with Tevis (ATE)?
Yes, you can replace your Girlings with ATE.
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
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Hi, Al,
quote:
if the original (Girling?) calipers have been replaced with Tevis (ATE) do I need to get 230 rotors or the 250/280 rotors? Is that what is different or is it the hubs that are different?
Different rotors are listed in the parts book for a 230SL from 250/280SLs. Diameters are different. :twisted:
230s: 110 421 0112 Diameter 253mm
250/280s: 115 421 1112 Diameter 273mm
naj
68 280SL
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Different rotor diameter, that explains it, that would mean the caliper mounting holes on the spindle would be drilled farther out from the center on a 250/280. Thanx,
I tore into the rear drum brakes, We are not faring much better there. The pistons are rusted up solid inside the wheel cylinders, the bleeders broke off when I tried to open them, the parking brake pulleys are locked up and the cables are frayed 3/4 of the way through from rubbing against the ceised up pulleys, when I went to remove the cylinder the metal line was rusted paper thin and snapped off at the fittings. also no fluid dripped out of the open lines so the rubber hoses must be pugged up too. at least the shoes and drums are useable.
I got one cable pulley apart, derusted, freed up and greased, but Monday the piston rings and head gasket came in with the UPS delivery, So I dropped the brakes project and dove back into the motor, I fitted the new rings to the pistons and got them back into the block this evening.
I may try to run new cable through my old park brake housings and fabricate some end clevices. It couldn't hurt. They are already broken.
Al :O)
113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket
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Hey Al,
are you sure you don't want to move back to KC?
We sure could use your knowledge around here!! :D
Alfred
1966 blue 230SL automatic
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Yesterday I took a field trip to Douglasville to check out Bud's Benz. Google maps showed it as a 95 mile trip. Thought it would be a good idea to actually check out thier operation.
My engine is now all built up on the motor stand but I need some odds and ends before I can hoist it back into the engine bay. The main thing I am holding on is a pair of brake rotors, the car needs to be on wheels to get it out under the hoist in the tree. The local auto parts store showed a set of rotors on thier computer, but when they came in they were the larger dia. rotors for a 250-280sl.
At Bud's I gave them my list of parts and as they were filling the order I went around the back and was looking through thier Pagoda grave yard. I'm sure most of you would be more interested in all the meticiously restored pagodas, the 300sl roadster and the like up in the shop. But I love scrounging through the parted out bones of discarded old pagodas.
Whyle forraging around I found the stock crank pulleys for alternator and power steering that I need to convert my motor back to non A/C configuration. I asked if I could pull it off the motor myself and have them add it to my bill. They didn't have a problem with that. My order still wasn't ready so David Williams walked me through the workshop. The most activity was going on in the trim shop section. I was realy impressed, back when my father and I were building SL's the aftermarket tops and trim parts were of marginal quality and the interior pieces from Benz were very very pricey and often took 3 to 6 months to get delivered.
Back at the parts counter I found that the rotors, the main thing I was looking for were out of stock, But they will ship them to me without freight charges. I guess I should expect something like that dropping in unannounced. But it was definately worth the trip. I don't think I'll mention how much $$$ I spent there though.
Too much fun for one day
Al :O)
113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket
-
Hey Ya'll
I havn't posted an update on project pagoda lately, so here is where we are.
All the hydraulics are installed blead out and working properly, mechanical parking brakes working too.
The engine is now residing in the engine bay and bolted to the mounts, the head bolts torqued (I torque them after installing the motor because I use the head bolts to attach the chain sling to the motor) Valves adjusted clutch blead and adjusted, trans fluid drained and replaced.
When I got the clutch slave hose installed I found the clutch master cylinder stuck at the bottom of the travel. I dug through my spares and found 3 master cylinders for various different MB sedans and one that was a match for my 230. It looked like brand new, still in the poly bag, but when I installed and blead it out it was stuck at the top of the travel. I took them both apart by removing the snapring and trying compressed air to force them plunger out, too stuck to move I then tried pressing the plunger out of the bore with a long drift punch inserted through the fitting hole at the bottom. On the fist one I took apart pressing the plunger out damaged the rubber for the weep valve. So when I took the second one apart I held the drift punch slightly to the side. This one came out but the metal cap was dented. But between the two there were one complete set of useable parts.
Put the cylinder back together, installed and blead the clutch and now it is woring perfectly.
Yesterday we sand blasted the rims so we can paint them before we get new tires mounted, Today I ground out a few rough spots and primered them, they look slick in pristine white primer. Somehow I ended up with a bunch of old snow tire rims, The spare wheels that people had to leave thier winter tires mounted year-round (before the invention of all-season radials). Nick had never heard of snow tires and wondered why the car had truck tires on it.
I think I put the blue rims and tires on a 108 sedan that my wife drove back when we first got married. I ended up with a bunch of rusty rims in 5 different colors. I thankfully made sure that they all have the "bumps" for the center hub caps.
Next step flushing out the fuel tank so it doesnt pump a bunch of rusty sludge into the injection pump, and getting the electircals back in the engine compartment. 20 years ago I started to pull the wiring harness out, planning to do a bare chassis restoration. That's not going to happen now so I will do some soldering on some broken connectors and plug it all back in.
Al :O)
113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket
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Al, I happened across this thread today. Great reading. Thanks and please keep it going. This is something your son will remember forever. Never heard of snow tires. LOL!
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Al,
Sounds like some great progress was made this week. Soon the roads in Oconee county will be graced with another Pogoda!
Daryl
'64 230 SL Buckeye Benz Scarlet interior and Grey top Serial # 508
'77 280SE
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I believe there's a procedure for bleeding the power steering box. Might be a good idea for your car that's been sitting a long time.
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
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Al,
while you are working on your very first Pagoda you might be interested to learn that your 2nd - or is it the other way around? - anyway the 230SL-manual shift-"hellblau" - is on the market at your former colleague's place (Kenny). Give him a call if you are curious or nostalgic :)
Alfred
1966 blue 230SL automatic
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quote:
Originally posted by 66andBlue
Al,
while you are working on your very first Pagoda you might be interested to learn that your 2nd - or is it the other way around? - anyway the 230SL-manual shift-"hellblau" - is on the market at your former colleague's place (Kenny). Give him a call if you are curious or nostalgic :)
Alfred
1966 blue 230SL automatic
Alfred
If someone is claiming to have one of my old SL's for sale in Kansas City, they are feeding you a bunch of..errr...ummmm...telling you a story. My first SL (a black 65) traded hands a couple of times, was totaled and parted out when I still lived in town, and the other is the one that is out in my garage now.
I can only recall one "colleague" named Kenny (Mitts?), he was the brother-in-law of a highschool classmate of my younger brother. Not exactly someone who I would have kept in touch with over the past 20 years. But tell him "Al says hey" from Georgia!
Al
113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket
-
quote:
Originally posted by rwmastel
I believe there's a procedure for bleeding the power steering box. Might be a good idea for your car that's been sitting a long time.
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
Rodd
Thanks! I am aware of the P/S bleeder, any time the system has been open like my car has it is the only way to get all the air out of the system so it doesn't burp fluid out the resivior when driving.
Basicly a length of hose is put on the bleeder and returned to the resivior tank with the filter removed. I usualy use a wooden clothes pin to hold the hose in the tank. With the motor running and the front wheels off the ground, open the bleeder and turn the steering from one side to the other.
Carefull!! holding the steering against the lock will send full system pressure out the bleeder hose and it will spray fluid all over the place. Keeping that in mind turn the steering lock to lock a couple of times, close the bleeder reinstall the filter and it will be good to go.
113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket
-
quote:
Originally posted by al_lieffring
Originally posted by 66andBlue
Al,
My first SL (a black 65) traded hands a couple of times, was totaled and parted out
I recall now that this isn't quite true. The black 65 actualy fell into worse circumstances.
About 3 years after I had sold the car I was contacted by a detective from the Overland Park, Kansas Police. The remains of the body tub were found behind a location that was suspected to have been a chop-shop. The detective contacted me because the VIN found on the chassis was last registered to me. Though the car traded hands several times, no one bothered to register the car before selling it again and again, or for that matter reported the car as stolen.
Al :O)
113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket
-
quote:
Originally posted by al_lieffring
Basicly a length of hose is put on the bleeder and returned to the resivior tank with the filter removed. I usualy use a wooden clothes pin to hold the hose in the tank. With the motor running and the front wheels off the ground, open the bleeder and turn the steering from one side to the other.
Carefull!! holding the steering against the lock will send full system pressure out the bleeder hose and it will spray fluid all over the place. Keeping that in mind turn the steering lock to lock a couple of times, close the bleeder reinstall the filter and it will be good to go.
So, you could send the hose to a glass container on the ground and manually fill the resivoir until the whole system has fresh fluid, right??
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
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quote:
Originally posted by rwmastel
quote:
Originally posted by al_lieffring
Basicly a length of hose is put on the bleeder and returned to the resivior tank with the filter removed. I usualy use a wooden clothes pin to hold the hose in the tank. With the motor running and the front wheels off the ground, open the bleeder and turn the steering from one side to the other.
Carefull!! holding the steering against the lock will send full system pressure out the bleeder hose and it will spray fluid all over the place. Keeping that in mind turn the steering lock to lock a couple of times, close the bleeder reinstall the filter and it will be good to go.
So, you could send the hose to a glass container on the ground and manually fill the resivoir until the whole system has fresh fluid, right??
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
Rodd
Sounds to me like a good idea.
It would take two people, one to turn the steering wheel, just running the motor with the bleeder open would not get all the old fluid out of the steering box, and another to pour fresh fluid into the resivior. I imagine it would take about 3 quarts of Dexron ATF to get most of the old stuff flushed out. It would never completyl
relpace all the fluid with new because with the bleeder open, fluid still flows from the box to the tank. But it would freshen it up to where it could make a difference.
113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket
-
This past week I have been working on getting the wiring back into the engine compartment. As I have been reinstaling the components I have been making repairs, the 10ga. cable from the starter to the alternator needed to be replaced, I put a new plug for the voltage rebulator wires on the alt, I installed wiring from the starter solenoid to bypass the balast resitor when starting, I then found the ignition switch wasn't making contact to start (Terminal 50) unless I held excessive pressure on the key. Years ago I had installed an old 108 key switch assy. because the original key tumbler had broken and fallen out. So digging through the box of electrical spares I found a screw terminal type switch, a 113 lock assembly with the key tumbler broken out. Then using the lock tumbler from the 108 assembly. I was able to fit it to the correct 113 lock. (The 113 lock is longer than a 108 assy. I had modified it to fit, but it wouldn't lock the steering column) and I transfered the wires to the other ignition switch and assembled it all to the steering column. Now the starter engages without puting a pipewrench on the key to get it to turn far enough and the column locks again when the key is removed.
I also found that the wire form the unprotected side of the fuse box to the ignition balast had been damaged and repaired poorly, I replaced it with proper guage wire and soldered ring terninals at both ends.
When I was under the dash switching wires around I also rewired the light switch so the driving lights power suply is connected to the parking light circuit, now they will stay on with the headlights. USA models came wired so they came on only with the park lights and turned off with the headlights.
I will also be changing the circuit so that the flash to pass will work on the combi switch.
More Problems :) :o :( [:(!]
When I went to drain the fuel out of the tank I removed the plug and nothing came out, I unbolted the tank only to find there was still 6 galons of what used to be leaded premium still in the tank.
I poured it out through the filler neck into a bucket, removed the float sensor, and used my power washer to flush out as much of the sludge and sediment as possible. Eventualy enough junk got blasted out that the drain opened up and I was able to backwash through the suply and return fittings. As I was pressure washing the tank I was soaking the drainplug/pre filter screen in my ultrasonic clock parts washer. After about 30mins it came out looking like new.
I could still hear something inside the tank so I shook it around untill a tar ball about the size of a golf ball rolled out the filler neck.
I tried to salvage the float sensor, but it was so packed so full of tar that the resistance wires were ripped out when I removed the canister that surrounds the float. I experimented by taking a length of wire from a rheostat, but It didn't have enough resistance and the float would only bring the needle down to indicate 1/2 tank when empty.
New float ordered and on it's way.
I changed out all of the rubber fuel lines, even the return hose below the steering box that everyone forgets about.
I removed the fuel pump (still the original) I connected it to power and it wasnt drawing any current. The brushes are located under a cover on top that removes with 2 nuts. I found the brushes were ok but the commutator needed cleaning. The motor wouldn't turn so I removed the cover plate from the bottom of the pump, It too was packed full of tar and varnish. I removed the inlet fitting and found a screen that was plugged up too. After the impeller was cleaned and reassembled, the pump worked perfectly, except for a tiny trace of fuel leaking out of the base plate O ring, will have to find a replacement somewhere.
Yesterday I put gas in the tank and ran the pump for about an hour then checked to see just how much junk got flushed from the tank into the filter. I was expecting to see the filter covered with red dust but the pre filter felt was still white and there were just a couple of chunks of sludge in the bottom of the canister. I had even ordered an extra fuel filter because I expected it to plug up right away. I'll save it for later.
I havn't tried to fire the motor yet, I am waiting untill I get the new header pipes bolted on, don't want fire shooting out of the manifolds onto the stater and the new wiring.
I will be crossing my fingers, in hope that the injection pump will do it's job without too much extra work, even though nothing else has seemed to on this project so far.
Later
Al [:O)]
113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket
-
Well I was hoping to have the engine running by now, but little things keep on popping up.
I finaly got the double diameter heater hose that goes from the metal pipe to the pump housing. I was now able to add the coolant, I went to open the heater valve, It was stuck, of course, I also noticed the valve wasn't centered below the access plug. I gave it a shake and the whole heater core was loose. I pulled out the blower assy and found the steel end plate and mounting brackets were detached from the core. I removed the core and soldered them back into place and while the core was still out, removed the valve and replaced the O-ring.
Reinstalled the blower housing and found the fan switch had the resistor coils burnt out. Lucky me I had a spare that worked. This one has a internal indicator lamp, think this came from a 220SE coupe don't think the pagodas had this feature. Also the defroster flap cable was broken. When connected the flap would only open 1/2 way, I cut the housing back about 3/4" shorter and that gave me enough extra cable. Also the right side heater flap had the actuator arm broken off. I remember having replaced the left side years ago. I ordered both flaps from MB and only got the left, was told both part numbers were discontinued and was lucky to have gotten the left one. At that time I just duct taped the heater door open (on). This time I cut out and glued two pieces of bakelite (or whatever that old cellulose plastic is), one to each side of the break to reinforce it so hopefully it won't break again.
I then filled up the cooling system, when I fill up a pagoda I pour the antifreeze in through the left side heater hose with a funnel, instead of trying to fill it from the expansion tank. This usualy gets all the air purged out from the system and the thermostat will open on first warm up of the engine without overheating.
Of course once I got it filled there was a leak, I thought at first it was the water pump. It was replaced when I tore the engine down but it has sat unused for 20 years, I thought the seal was shot. But a closer look revealed the lower banjo fitting bolt on the pump housing bleeder tube was loose.
Next step; fit up the new exaust.
Dear Doctor Z:
Why does my new Mercedes auspuffor have a Daimler Chrysler label on it?
I have always used a lift to install exausts and never tried to replace header pipes with a pagoda up on stands. I ended up having to remove the starter motor and unbolt the rear manifold from the head to get the pipes to clear the idler arm bracket.
I wish now that I had ordered the exaust while the motor was still out.
Got the header pipes in, got the exaust fitted in place, clear of all the rattle zones and welded the system together.
I wish I had a portable MIG welder back in '76, it realy makes it a lot easier than torch welding them together the way we did it back then.
I am now only short a set of spark plugs before firing up the motor. I havn't been able to find localy any non resistor plugs.
I guess it would run with them, but I know that non resistor plugs are what I should use in spite of what the application charts say.
I also have an aversion to using Bosch plugs. I had to chisel hundreds of them out of cylinder heads back in the '70s, They would break off right below the hex and the threaded part would be stuck in the head.
Our shop used Champion N7Y plugs (N7YC,"C" for copper core plugs came later) or N9Y's if we needed an little hotter plug. Champion now shows this as a motorcycle and small engine plug with "no automotive aplication". I'll stick with what I know and I ordered a dozen of them over the internet. I hope they will be here tomorrow.
Oh did I mention the (stick) shift linkage? It all seemed to be working just fine, That was untill I bolted the shift arms back onto the transmission. The bushings at the rear of the stationary arms felt a little loose, then as I unblolted the plastic cover under the boot every rubber bushing in the entire shift linkage turned to greasy goo and fell apart.
I guess I'll be calling Dave at Bud's Benz tomorrow morning and get a shifter bushing repair kit on order.
I'll keep at till the pagoda's back on the road. Maybee next week???
Al
113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket
-
WAAAHOOOWHEEE!!!
I got the motor started and running this afternoon.
It fired right off but was way too lean to keep running. Once the motor warmed up, the thermostat opened and I got the timing set. It just took some adusting of the main rack mixture screw to get it smoothed out. I think I'll leave it a little on the rich side untill it has run for a bit and the injectors and rack get loostened up a bit. They have gotten out of the habit over the past 20 years.
Cylinder head bolts are retorqued and when the motor cools I will re-adjust the valves. I have always set them to I.004" and X.008", I had been told that this makes for easier hot starts.
The wheels are painted and look great. I'll go and get the tires mounted tomorrow.
May have to rig up some shift bushings till the new ones get here, b'cause I'm ready to put some miles on this thing. Cant wait.
Al :O)
113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket
-
Yesterday I took the rims in to get new tires mounted. While waiting I was running the motor trying to get it set to run a bit smoother.
I noticed there was no air noise from the cold start filter when the motor was cold, so I took loose the thermostat from the slide and saw that the cold start override screw was holding the slide closed. I never could figure out what this was supposed to be used for. When I set it to the normal position and the motor was run till warm, the engine now was running way too rich. About the time I get the fuel rack set to where it starts to sound realy good, the motor stalls, and much to my horror the fuel pump isn't running. Thoughts go racing through my head of having to replace the pump ($$$), and maybee even the fuel tank (more $,$$$) because chunks of stuff from inside the tank have come loose and destroyed the pump after just an hour of running.
I pull off the coffee can and remove the pump, I temporarily install a used late style pump that I have as a spare, It ran, but sounded like it was only running at 3/4 speed.
I took the original pump over to the bench, took the brush cover back off, the brushes still look good, I cleaned the commutator again, just to be sure, also checked the intake screen, it was clear and the motor turned free, so I thought I would give it another try. When I got the original pump reinstalled I noticed that the + wire terminal nut was bottoming out before the cable was tight. Uf Da! I added a washer and sure enough the pump was running again.
The tires are back now and look great, White sides mounted out, of course.
Nick thought we went through a lot of trouble sand blasting, grinding, priming, sanding and repainting the wheels just so that a 1" strip of blue paint will show between the hub caps and the trim rings. "No one will know the difference" he said. I had to explain that you can't hide anything under a coat of new paint. Painting over cruddy rusted wheels would have resulted in cruddy, nasty looking blue wheels. There are just some things that you can't take short cuts on. And If I just wanted to hide the wheels I could have saved a set of full wheel hubcabs, I used to have stacks of the things from alloy wheel upgrades.
I'm going out now to take the car down off the stands, roll it out of the garage, under it's own power, and sweep up the mess that has accumulated underneath.
Later
Al :O)
113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket
-
quote:
Originally posted by al_lieffring
Thoughts go racing through my head of having to replace the pump ($$$), and maybee even the fuel tank (more $,$$$) because chunks of stuff from inside the tank have come loose and destroyed the pump after just an hour of running.
Al,
I hope you cleaned out that old fuel system before starting the car!
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
-
Thanks Al, for keeping us all posted on the progress. Sure sounds like you are finding a lot of issues but you also seem to be dispensing with them at very quickly each time (most of those issues would take me 5 times as long or more to sort out ...). Hang in there, soon you'll be driving to The Knack tunes again.
Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
-
quote:
I hope you cleaned out that old fuel system before starting the car!
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
Yes Rodd.
That was back in the Sep. 17 posting.
113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket
-
I havn't posted an update lately so here goes
When I first rolled the car out of the garage under it's own power, the first thing I noticed was the toe setting on the front end was so far out that I was leaving black tread marks on the drive. Appearantly I had the incorrect drag link on the car when I last set the toe and now that I have the proper 111 part the toe was off by a mile. Once I got the shop halfway straightened I brought the car back in and set the front end by eyeball, by sighting down the sidewalls of the front tire untill it lined up with the sidewall of the rear tire, It was toed-in so far that sighting down the front sidewalls aligned to the center of the rear tire.
I took the scan of the fuse box lable that was sent to me by a member on the forum, Thanx again. Because my printer doesnt index the print onto the page I was having problems getting the print to line up on both sideds. I ended up croping away all the white space on the back side and replacing the back ground with a color that matched the yellowed paper of the scan. When I trimmed the card stock down to the front side, on the back though it was slightly out of ling there was no white areas to show through. Though I don't speak French or Spanish It looks great!
Next day I drive the car over to the tire shop for a proper alignment.
On the return trip to pick up the car, I spot it parked in the lot. It had been so long since I had seen the car anywhere but in my garage for that frist instant my thought was, "Hey there's an old SL over there! No,wait...it's mine".
Drove it home, tracked nicely down the road, but the speedo would only go to 40mph. I recalled that the speedo should read about twice the tach in 4th, so when I got home I took apart the speedo head and lubed it up with synthetic clock oil. Then I chucked up a short end from a speedo cable in my jewlers lathe. With the lathe motor reversed (turning clockwise) I spun it up to 130 mph for about 3 miles to loosten it up. Put it back in the dash and set out on a test drive and I also stopped to fill up the fuel tank.
The speedo still only would read 45 mph. I determined at this point that the spanner nut on the trans rear flange was loose. I decided to head down the highway to see how the alignment bahaved at road speed. I pulled onto the road wound it up to 3000 on the tach in 4th gear. Then the motor died whitout a sputter or miss, just nothing. I had enough inertia to get onto a siding and it would go no further.
The only tool I had with me was a screwdriver I found under the seat, I popped the hood and removed the cap, the points looked pitted so I used the tip of the screwdriver to scrape the face of the points as clean as possible. Placed the coil wire on top of the zundfolge where I could see it from inside the car cranked it over, no spark. I then called my older son on the cell phone, told him where I was and needed a ride home.
Since the car was off the highway I didn't feel any urgent need to get it home untill the next morning.
Daybreak arrives and I set out armed with a tool box, test lamp, remote stater button, a different coil, and condensor (I didn't have another set of points). Just for the halibut I crank the car over, it sputtered once but didn't start. Checking the coil wire again there was just a tiny trace of a spark. I file the points till they are shiny clean, now no spark at all.
I determine with the test lamp that somewhere between the coil and points something is grounding out.
I take out the terminal bolt and the fiberwashers and find a 4mm lock washer laying on the breaker plate grounding out the points lead.
I have this terrible habit of laying things on top of the battery when I'm working and I guess this washer rolled off the battery into the distributor.
Put everything back (but the washer) and it drove home. Andrew and I had to drive back later to get the van.
Yesterday I took apart the transmission mount plate. Does there realy need to be 14 bolts? Took out the flex disc and sure enough the spanner nut was loose. Now why didn't I think to check this before I installed the trans?
Uh I dunno.
I did remember to change the fluid though.
Because banging on a spanner nut with a chisel never works very well I decided to make myself a spanner socket. The nut was loose enough that it came out by hand. I took it along with me to the hardware store and found a 1/2" drive socket with the same OD as the spanner nut (an 1-1/8" socket) Then using my RotoZip tool's flex shaft and a Dremmel metal cutting disc I cut out four teeth that fit into the spanner nut. When the socket got too hot to hold by hand I would cool it in a bucket of water so it wouldn't loose its temper. I put it on my 1/2" impact and it worked perfectly.
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I'm still kinda gun shy about the ignition points, havn't driven it yet to check the speedo.
This morning I ordered a PerTronics point replacement kit. I looked at the Crane breakerless kit. And I just didn't like kits that are "Universal Fit" That usualy means they are made for everything but fit on nothing. I have read through the threads on these systems and lost of people prefer the Crane, but I'd rather go with a made to fit system. Also I think that no external switching box is a plus.
I'm going out to test drive the speedo now, I'll throw a unicycle in the trunk in case the ignition drops out again. This time I'll have a ride home.
Al :O)
113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket
-
Kudo's Al... your posts are indeed enlightening and you tell your story (adventures of discovery, identification, & solutions) very well. .... honestly too, it seems... mislaid washers, etc let us all relate to it... which is at least one reason I look forward to your posts. Thank you for taking your time to post.
Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
'02 SL500 Sport
-
hey Ya'll
Keeping a unicycle in the trunk for an emergency ride home seems to be working. I drove about 25 miles out on the road this afternoon, the car drives flawlessly. Just the way I remember. Possibly even a little better. I've been keeping it under 3000 revs and 60mph for the break in. But it is still a thrill to drive.
Tightening up the flange nut also made the 2-3 shift a lot smoother.
Now I have to work on making the car look like something. I started out with some soap and water, didn't help much, but it's a start. The interior is starting to show some white again from under the 20+year layers of grime.
Al :O)
113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket
-
Hey Ya'll
In order to make my car driveable enough to get around safely I need to get some floor boards down below my feet.
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81.67 KB
Replacing rusted sheet metal takes some planning before tearing in and hacking away everything that looks rusty.
In the case of my car, there would be nothing left. So a plan needs to be made as to what extent the repairs will need to go.
My car will never be a show car, so replacing everything that even shows a trace of rust is out of the question, on the other hand I have higher expectations than just pop riveting in pieces of roofer's flashing and stuffing the holes full of old news paper and smearing them over with Bondo filler. You wouldn't believe the things that I have found under a layer of bondo on these cars. Fortunately I am the only one to have ever done any body repair on this car, so I don't think I'll find anything hiding inside the quarter pannels.
I have some new reproduction sheet metal on order, the lower panels (where the mouldings mount) for the front fenders, and 3/4 reproduction fenders for the rears, a left outer rocker pannel (the one that screws on) and a pair of rear frame sections (The dog leg in front of the rear axle) The rest I plan on making out of flat sheet stock.
The right floor board in the photo is in much worse shape than the left because of the hole that was drilled for the Kuhlmeister's evaporator drain (yellow arrow) was directly behind the tire and allowed the water that splashed up to fill up the floor pan. I rember once finding an inch of water there when I pulled up the carpeting.
I worked this week on welding new pannels in on the driver's side floor. Because the frame box section of the rocker pannel has rust damage too, I chose to start by welding in a piece of 11ga. sheet steel bent into an 1" angle. I welded this to the outer frame box section giving this section some added structural strength to mount the floor to.
There was a small hole about the size of a pea under the accelerator pedal by the time I got the pedal mounting bracket cut away, there was a hole almost 8" square to repair. I had to remove the mounting brackets for the fuel and brake lines to get them out of the way before I could do any welding there.
I kept a large fire extinguisher handy, but I came up with a handy way to put out the rubber undercoat that would burn as I was welding, I kept a pump-up style lawn sprayer filled with water by the car while I was welding, when a little fire would pop up I would give it a spritz of water and go back to welding. In the past I had used buckets of water and wet rags this would leave puddles of water everywhere, not a good idea when electric welding.
Hopefully by about this time next week I'll have some reproduction sheet metal here and can start tearing into the fenders.
I think instead I may want get the holes in the floor welded up and then start driving the car around so I get enough miles racked up to change the break in oil. Then I'll start ripping away at the exterior sheet metal.
Al :O)
113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket
-
Great to read the updates each time.
One question - in general, what does one put over new sheet metal to keep it from corroding ("Deja-vu all over again") and, more particularly, (how) will you replace the undercoating that burns off from welding?
Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
-
quote:
Originally posted by cees klumper
Great to read the updates each time.
One question - in general, what does one put over new sheet metal to keep it from corroding ("Deja-vu all over again") and, more particularly, (how) will you replace the undercoating that burns off from welding?
Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
hey Cees
That's the $64,000 question. How to make metal repairs that are rust proof (resistant). I once had a sales brochure from Mercedes about the upcoming release of the new /8 models, It showed in detail all the procedures the new 68 models went through to make them "The first truly rust proof automobile". Well that didn't pan out very well, after a couple years of winter driving we all know what happened.
My basic plan is to seal both sides of all the metal surfaces, at the factory they were submurged in a bath of electrostaticly charged water based sealer, the light grey layer, then the bottom surfaces were coated with a rubbery substance that I think was heated and sprayed on in a molten state, then the whole thing was primered and painted.
I have a undercoating spray gun
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This sprays on a viscos tar like substance that takes about 48 hours to set up, then it can be painted over. Yesterday when I was at the auto parts store I saw that they had gallon containers of spray on pickup bed liner, This when set up has a harder surface than the tar based under coat. I dont know if there is a product that sprays on with the extremely high amount of texture that the original rubber coating had.
When finished every metal surface should be coated if possible painted. Unpainted primer isn't a very good metal sealer, primer has a high solid content (calcium carbonate, gypsum, chalk and the like) it is designed to fill up surface irregularities, but this also makes it poruos so if left unpainted moisture will eventualy soak in to the metal.
My goal is to get about 10 more years of life out of this car, If if holds up longer, that will just be a bonus.
Maybe by then someone will be making a reproduction "body in white" that I can transfer all the running train onto. We all can hope any way.
Al :O)
113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket
-
Full disclosure: I own a car wash.
Now, gents, this is not rocket science, not even close.
If you regularly wash your car, particularly the underbody, and especially so after driving in salty or muddy roads, you will almost certainly prevent 98% of rust or rot. You can buy pressure washers relatively cheap these days, or you can fabricate an ersatz one with some pipe and a car wash nozzle. The nozzles are like $2 each.
I see people who wash their car (not 113 owners, just regular folks) every spring, whether it needs it or not. I see other people come in 3 times a week throughout the year, and after EVERY snowfall without exception.
I've seen the same vintage cars here at my car wash, like 1992 Taurus, 1994 Chevy Pickups, etc. some rotted so bad one good pothole will land them in a million pieces. These are the once a year washers. I've seen nearly identical vintage vehicles in showroom condition. These are the 3x a week washers.
If you get the junk off your car or truck regularly and don't let it build up, rust and rot will NOT be a problem. And, when you do start to see some issues, such as surface rust where there is a paint chip, or where the schutz is peeling off, fix it. Ignoring this stuff is like ignoring a breast lump on a woman. No good will come of it.
The way most of us 113 owners pamper their cars, FURTHER issues probably won't happen--it's taking care of what the last owner did or didn't do that makes things bad...
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
-
Hello Cees and AL,
Metal repairs are great, however the heat from the welding burn the coatings off the rear side of the panels. In addition a lot of acids and other corrosives are introduced from the welding process. The metal must be thoroughly cleaned and treated before priming and refinishing. The repair must be sealed off completely to prevent moisture from ruining the job in the future. Clean and coat the backside if possible. You can flush clean repairs a commercial solutions before priming. I used to use a bare metal conditioner made by 3m. It etched the metal and neutralized any acids before priming. It also removed any surface rust from bare steel. Like AL said, primers are porous and should be covered with finish paint before prolonged exposure to moisture.
If you are doing chassis repairs use a good rust primer then a finish paint and then the undercoating. I have used the 3M body schutz that Al mentioned. It is a good product and you can get close to the original texture with the special gun which is not that expensive. The product is also available as 3M rubberized undercoat in aerosols but is a much finer texture.
I have used the Sekkens ( of The Netherlands) body schutz which is an original Mercedes OEM product at times, from what I have heard. With it's gun the texture is perfect as original if done correctly. Surprisingly it is a water base product! After it dries it is very durable. It accepts paint well and repairs are invisible on the undercarriage if done correctly.
As Michael has said, keep them clean. I like to drive the car after washing to help blow dry moisture out of the crevices. Repairs must be made watertight and sealed and treated to last. The Eastwood Co. has lots of restoration products and information available online.
Mercedes or it's suppliers will also supply all original paints, primers and undercoats if you can take the the sticker shock.
Newer professional products like two stage epoxy primers are superior but harder to use, more toxic than the old lacquer based primers.
Nicely formed all metal repairs, hammer welded into place are nearly a thing of the past. Cost and lost know how, making these techniques extinct except for in the better restoration shops. New synthetic fillers are economical, easy to use and can last when used correctly. The same rules apply, make good repairs, treat the metal, seal the repairs well and keep it clean.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
-
On washing cars frequently... it depends on where you live I think.... when I lived in Germany in the 80's in winter the car went thru the local car-wash 2x a week at least.... and whenever the sun was out for a day I spent time going over little creases the car wash didn't get done as well. Of course, the Germans have their TUV (car inspection to retain registration and license stickers) every 2 years I think it was... and rust somewhere on the undercarriage or wheel wells had to be fixed first (car went over an inspection trough... inspectors and lights shining up into the under body).... so the car-wash business in winter and spring was always booming... seemed like there was one at every other gas station... and it wasn't free (no free car-wash for a fill-up).
On the other side of the coin, my '67 250SL has spent it's entire life in Santa Clara Valley (original purchase and both other owners), and doesn't have any rust on it anywhere (... except on the exhause pipes)... get's washed only to keep the dirt off (i.e. so it looks good), and waxed 2x a year or so.... I keep it covered so I wash it about 4x a year or a little more often when I drive it in inclement weather... no salt on the roads in winter around these here parts.... mostly.... except on 17 (over the hill to Santa Cruz when it snows hard enough to stick around a day or so.... no coastal salt air get's this far inland (40 miles?... 30 by the way the crow flies?).... and it's generally not a humid environment.
Around these parts the Sun's the killer for the paint and rubber.
Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
'02 SL500 Sport
-
Rodd or someone,
This thread with a fun name has a lot of diverse useful info, but its nondescriptive subject line makes it useless in a search for any of its topics. Can we take it apart and file the parts under appropriate places in the Manual? Good idea? Bad idea?
Trice
1968 280SL US, signal red/bl leather, auto, kinder seat
Sarasota FL; Alsace France; Switzerland
You only need 2 tools in life: WD40 to make things go, and duct tape to make them stop.
-
Trice,
First, the search engine does search the body of the thread. Optionally, the thread title only.
Second, I guess I could (anyone could) copy/paste particular posts and use them to start new threads on specific topics. I'm not sure how much point there is to that, but if you or anyone find it useful then go for it. If you want to get really detailed and orgainzed, find old threads that these points of interest will fit into and update those threads with this new info! For example, the home made tools to grease the wiper mechanisim might fit into another thread on home made or special tools, or wiper problems, if those threads exist.
Third, yes, this is great info for the manual. I'm sure the people who write/build that will find these types of information using the search tool.
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
-
quote:
Originally posted by France
Rodd or someone,
This thread with a fun name has a lot of diverse useful info, but its nondescriptive subject line makes it useless in a search for any of its topics. Can we take it apart and file the parts under appropriate places in the Manual? Good idea? Bad idea?
Trice
1968 280SL US, signal red/bl leather, auto, kinder seat
Sarasota FL; Alsace France; Switzerland
You only need 2 tools in life: WD40 to make things go, and duct tape to make them stop.
Hey Ya'll
Do I owe someone an apology or something?
This thread has a fun name because that is what it is supposed to be, fun. I am posting here because I enjoy sharing the things I am coming across as this project progresses and the things I am rediscovering after the nearly 20 years since I have last driven this car.
I have never been anything other than a semi-literate grunt laborer, so my format is an unstructured progression of what I have been doing for the past couple of months, and I will continue in the same fashion till the members of this forum are sick of hearing from me and beg me to stop.
I'm just having fun posting my project's progress here and I hope that someone else is enjoying reading through them too.
Al :O)
113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket
-
Oh Al, don't get me wrong--I love your posting and its title; I still hear that song on the radio. It's just that when you're trying to fix something on the car, and you do a "search" to see all the threads that address the particular problem at hand, the subject line is often helpful in narrowing down the topic, that's all. But Rodd is right--the engine finds the search words in the body of the thread too. I look forward to your continued posting--I would never beg you to stop! It's obvious from the flames next to this topic that we all enjoy your input.
Trice
1968 280SL US, signal red/bl leather, auto, kinder seat
Sarasota FL; Alsace France; Switzerland
You only need 2 tools in life: WD40 to make things go, and duct tape to make them stop.
-
Al,
Just so you know,
I religiously follow your threads and take your advice seriously....
+ its fun reading 8)
Long may you continue.
naj
68 280SL
-
I'd like to say that one of the greatest things about this site are the personalities that come along with the posts. Unlike some anonymous information resource where you just find facts, we have a "family" here -- with a variety of writing styles and ways of communicating stuff about our beloved cars.
My point is, when I see a post by this person or that person, I am (usually -- ok. always) anxious to open it up and see what they have to say. And taking it to another level, there are even specific posts that do the same thing for me. "How often we spot a Pagoda" is always fun, and in the case of "Mu-Mu-Mu-My Pagoda", I quickly tune-in to see Al's progress. It helps that I am so addicted to this place that I never miss a post....
However, I can see Trice's point as well. It is always useful to have a descriptive word(s) in the title, since some folks choose to browse the titles instead of searching via keywords. I face a similar thing all the time here in my library. The catchy title can make me buy the book -- the descriptors (or "key words") help me find it later on.
James
63 230SL
-
AL
I just wish you would work a little faster! :D
-
quote:
Originally posted by PnHi
AL
I just wish you would work a little faster! :D
That was what my father always said.
This week I have been spending most of my time working on clocks for customers, for the first time in months I have repair business to do. And when I have been finishing one and return it to the customer they will have another one waiting that they want repaired too.
This morning the PerTronics kit arrived from Summit Racing. I deciced that the ca. 1885 Ansonia mantle clock with the cast iron case, sitting disassembled on the work bench, could wait another hour or so.
The ignition kit didn't come with much in the way of directions, but it isn't that complicated either, basicly remove the points, install the Hall effect sensor, route the 2 wires through the distributor so that the wires won't pinch when the vacuuim moves the breaker plate, install the magnet, connect the red wire to Ign. +12v and the black wire to the - side of the coil. Then start it up and reset the timing. I removed the distributor to make things easier, but it realy wasn't necessary. Getting the magnet aligned with the cam and getting it to seat in fully took a couple of tries to get it right and the metal tab that holds the vacuuim advance pin to the breaker plate needed to have a small corner ground away to make clearance for the magnet.
I decided to also change the coil to the PerTronics Flame Thrower 40kv coil that is designed to work with the system. Because there are so many variations on coil designs, I felt it would be best to use thier coil and avoid possible compatibility problems.
I chose the oil filled coil with the 1.5ohm primary windings, that way I could keep the balast and the bypass circuit I installed from the starter solenoid to the resistor. Installed this way there will be a higher reserve spark voltage when starting.
Oh yeah, I got the chrome too! I'm a hot rodder at heart, and as they say "If it don't go faster, CHROME IT". I don't know about going faster, but it sure runs better at cold start, Now it doesn't pop back at throttle tip in right after starting, I can't remember it ever not doing that. I'll try running the fuel rack set the way it is for now, but it seems it could be leaned out quite a bit more.
Maybe I'll have time to weld in the right side floor boards Saturday, and be able to drive it around on Sunday. It should be cool but sunny, sounds perfect to me.
Ya'll have fun now. Hear?
Al :O)
113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket
-
Hey Ya'll
I was able to get some welding done yesterday on the right side floor pan. I took some pics as I was doing the work. Repairs like this these are kind of like buying sausages, sometimes you'r better off not knowing what might be in there. I don't think I signed a full disclosure agreement, but here's how it goes any way.
I started out by laying a piece of anlge steel along the outside edge of the floor at the frame rail to add a structural element to hold the floor and also get some clean steel to weld to.
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And then welded the angle in place to any remaining clean steel that I could get to take a weld.
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I then cut a piece of steel to run the full length of the floor and broke it at an angle so it extended up another 2 inches over the firewall pannel. I cut the width to align up with the spotwelds of the forward frame horns along the inside edge. Because it was a double thickness of steel it was still fairly soild and also covered most of the floor area.
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) floor pan welded.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/al_lieffring/20061112192859_floor%20pan%20welded.jpg)
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This left a small hole between the frame horns and the exaust heat shield below.
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The floor here is a compound curve so I roughly formed the steel to match the curve with a ball peen hammer over a steel strap I had clamped in my vise.
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) compound curve.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/al_lieffring/20061112193416_compound%20curve.jpg)
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Then I trimmed the piece to fit
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To weld the piece in place I first tack welded the corners and then small sections at a time, tapping the pannel into place - as I welded - with a ball peen hammer to make the piece lay flat against the floor.
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) compound welded.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/al_lieffring/20061112194037_compound%20welded.jpg)
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There were also holes in the box frame forward of the door that needed to be patched too.
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) frame patch.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/al_lieffring/2006111219443_frame%20patch.jpg)
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So that is where I am on Project Pagoda this evening. I still need to do some grinding to knock down the welds. The quality of my welding corresponds with the discomfort I experienced while getting into a position to make the weld. Along the open sections of the floor, nice clean welds, up under the dash where I was hanging upside down while trying to hold the welding visor with my left hand, the welds look like fuzzy catapilars. A little more grinding and it will be good enough. It is all going to be under an inch of jute padding and carpet, eventualy.
Ya'll have fun now. Hear?
:) Al :)
113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket
-
Another nice blow-by-blow ...
Rodd - would it be an idea to feature this restoration project in (successive issues of) Pagoda World?
Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
-
Very nice. It almost makes my floor project look do-able. (not by me of course...) A question though. Instead of the patching as Al has done -- would another option be to weld a whole new piece from K&K? How much harder would that be?
James
63 230SL
-
quote:
Originally posted by J. Huber
Very nice. It almost makes my floor project look do-able. (not by me of course...) A question though. Instead of the patching as Al has done -- would another option be to weld a whole new piece from K&K? How much harder would that be?
James
63 230SL
It would depend on what condition the pannels adjacent to the floor pan of your car are in. I chose this route because they were not in any better shape than the floor and patching seemed like the better way to go. So it wasn't realy an issue of easier or harder. It could in another situation be easier to install the pre-formed floor pannel.
Al
113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket
-
Nice job and effort tackling your floor boards. I respect when car buffs decide to face the music and get their hands dirty to get their car to the next level.
Cheers
Peter Perry
-
Al, Great job. Looks like a lot of the work I did. And may I say, it is well worth it. Keep up the good work.
Bill Simaz
'66 230sl
Back on the Road
-
Al, I am impressed with your capabilities. Although my floors are not in that shape yet, it's only a matter of time and I don't think I'm the only one in that boat.
I like Cees's idea of capturing all your hard earned knowledge in some format for future reference for all of us.
Rodd, if your reading, email me if I can assist with this.
Patrick
'68 250SL
-
Al, like others, I am very impressed with your abilities. However, I don't know whether to admire you or pity you for all work still ahead! Good luck with this life time project.
Rod Hersberger
Santa Barbara
'68 280 SL, red, tan, 4sp, two tops
'01 Jag S Type brg
'07 Cayman S Carmona red, sand beige
-
Hey Ya’ll
This morning I drove the Pagoda to church. Now that I have something more than a floor mat between my feet and the road I will be driving it around to run errands and the like. That way I can get enough miles on the motor to drain out the non-detergent break in oil. I just reinstalled the basics on the interior, bolted in the seats. I spent a day making a pair of seatbelts out a pile of odds and ends from old Kangol belts that I had removed from sedans that I parted out years ago. They were all stiff as a board and the first thing I had to do was soak them in a tub of soapy water overnight to get the crud out and make them pliable again. I found enough pieces in fairly good shape to make up a set of useable belts. I even had the plastic bolt covers for the two visible ends on each belt and a pair of spring wound belt retractors that clip onto the belts.
The other thing I needed to do to make the car drivable was to put the glass, regulator and door latch linkage back in the left door. The metal guides were gone off the glass, but I have a bucket of old ones that I had saved over the years from broken windows that I replaced on customer cars. I am sure there are many threads on putting these on with as many different sure fire ways to make them stay. I use Waterfowl Adhesive (duct tape). Seriously, I clean off the old tar adhesive with a razor blade, and then put on several layers of tape wrapped around the edge of the glass until there is enough thickness of material that the guide can be driven into place with a plastic hammer and stay in place. It took four layers of the tape I was using; it can vary by the brand used. Once I got the glass and regulator in I started to assemble the door latch and control rods. For as long as I have owned the car the return spring on the drivers door pull has been broken. I figured that now would be as good a time as any to see if there was a way to make it work again. This must be a fairly common problem because I have another set of door latches in the same condition. The problem is a broken torsion spring that is under the release lever. It is riveted in place. And I didn’t want to drill out the rivet that the levers pivot on. I found I could wind the spring out around the lever in a manner similar to removing a key from a key-ring. To make the new spring I used a coil spring of similar wire gage and diameter, and cut off two loops of the coil then used the two broken pieces of the spring for a pattern and bent the ends of the new spring to match. Then I wound it back over the lever and hooked the ends in place. The new spring has slightly less tension than the original, but I don’t have to push the lever back for the door to close any more. With that accomplished I thought it would just be a simple matter of selecting the correct linkage rods from the dozen or so assorted linkage rods that I had saved over the years, none of them seemed to fit. I finally had to take apart off the right side door panel to see what was on that side. I found that I had installed the chrome locking lever from a 220SEC and I had forgotten about the toggle and spring linkage that goes on the latch for the pull handle linkage. I found all the pieces for these and had to do some welding to put them back into shape. I had planned on spending about an hour or so to hang on the left door, it ended up taking up most of the day.
The right side door I wasn’t going to bother with the window guides and all that, I was just going to put back the door panel and bolt the outside handle back on. But I discovered that the boss where the handle’s screw attaches to the door jamb had been broken away and was still attached to the handle. I went to the hardware store and bought a 1/8 x 1” aluminum strap and cut a piece off about 2” long. I ground away an 1/8” of the material from inside the door and pop riveted it into place, then drilled a hole through it for the handle’s screw to go through. When I take the door apart for repainting, I will use aluminum solder instead of rivets but it will work for now.
I took the car out for a Saturday evening ride around the Athens perimeter. The car was running great, but about a half hour into the drive I noticed that I would think that every piece of gravel on the road that I ran over I thought might be an engine miss or something falling off or breaking. I decided to just take a deep breath relax, If something did break I had a cell phone and could get a ride home. And like my father used to tell me, “If the engine blows, you’ll just have to fix it again” Nothing did break and I was able to relax and just enjoy the ride.
Al
66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket
-
Hey Ya'll
I have been driving the Pagoda around for the last week when ever I get the chance, have gotten about 400 miles on the motor rebuild so far.
No major problems, but a few observations of things I will need to look into later.
The first thing that came to my attention is the speedometer readings, as I have posted in a different thread the rpm readings at highway speeds seemed to be much higher than I remembered. My recallection was that the speedo (MPH) should double the tach/100.
It seems there were so many different axle ratios through the production of these cars that I had to crawl under the axle last night, scrape off the grease and find my axle ratio.
The axle is stamped "SL 4.08" a much, much longer gear than I expected to find. I took a tire measurement and plugged in the info and came up with 54.1 MPH at 3000 RPM.
To check the tach readings I bought a new dwell/tach/multi meter, My old Snap-On meter would hunt up and down the scale in such a wide range that it doesn't give results that are useful any more. I don't think that anyone makes an analog dwell/tach any more, everything seems to be digital now.
I hooked the meter up to check the mechanical tach. Even though by my ear the motor's revs sounded like they were maching the tach, I wanted to check for sure, and in fact they do match up. But the tach still needs to come back out because it and/or the cable are squealing at over 4000 revs.
So my speedo is reading about 5mph below the actual speed, I just need to get used to the higher revs of a car this age. The 3.12 axle with an overdrive trans in my Astro van has made me used to much lower revs when out on the road.
My first night drive last week revealed that the headlights were cross eyed, I had to line them up on the garage door when I got home.
I back up about 20 feet from the door and line them up dead ahead with the high beams on, While I was at it I also lined up the fog lights.
I have noticed there is more freeplay in the steering column than there was right after the alignment, I will have to look and see if there are rubber bushings on the flex joint that have broken down and falling apart, all the other rubber parts have so I imagine these are not much better.
The more I drive the car the better the injection pump seems to be working, The mixture seems a bit richer now, the plungers and check valves must be seating in and delivering more fuel per stroke than before.
When the heat is on, after the heater core warms up the blower fan starts rubbing on the housing, Most cars have the fan on the cold air side but these cars draw hot air through the fan and it seems mine is expanding enough when warm to make contact with the case. The heat controlls will all be coming out to paint the dash pannel so I will adjust the squirrel cages then.
There is a drip under the pinion seal, I will have to replace that too, I may take the axle out along with the fuel tank when I am patching up the rear frame rails. That will give me more room to work under there.
My order from SLS is still languishing in US Customs, not sure if it was worth the bother, especialy now that I learned that most of the tin parts are made here in the US.
Good thing I'm not doing this to make money. I will just need to keep repeating, I love my Pagoda, I love my Pagoda, I lo.......
Al :D :mrgreen: :)
66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket
-
Al,
quote:
I have noticed there is more freeplay in the steering column than there was right after the alignment, I will have to look and see if there are rubber bushings on the flex joint that have broken down and falling apart, all the other rubber parts have so I imagine these are not much better.
There are 2 white bushings column to box coupling on the 230 SL. Later cars have a UJ
quote:
The more I drive the car the better the injection pump seems to be working, The mixture seems a bit richer now, the plungers and check valves must be seating in and delivering more fuel per stroke than before.
Do you ever add any oil to the fuel?
naj
68 280SL
-
quote:
Originally posted by al_lieffring
I had to crawl under the axle last night, scrape off the grease and find my axle ratio. The axle is stamped "SL 4.08" a much, much longer gear than I expected to find.
Weren't the USA 280SL cars the only ones (except maybe the 5-speed manual cars) that had the 4.08 ratio? Do you have disk brakes in the rear?
quote:
My first night drive last week revealed that the headlights were cross eyed, I had to line them up on the garage door when I got home. I back up about 20 feet from the door and line them up dead ahead with the high beams on, While I was at it I also lined up the fog lights.
There is a documented procedure for accurate light alignment, if you want to get particular. Look in the MB shop manual or Haynes.
quote:
I have noticed there is more freeplay in the steering column than there was right after the alignment, I will have to look and see if there are rubber bushings on the flex joint that have broken down and falling apart, all the other rubber parts have so I imagine these are not much better.
Yes, at the cupling of the steering column to the steering box. Mine were shot (one was actually gone!).
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
-
quote:
Originally posted by rwmastel
quote:
Originally posted by al_lieffring
I had to crawl under the axle last night, scrape off the grease and find my axle ratio. The axle is stamped "SL 4.08" a much, much longer gear than I expected to find.
Weren't the USA 280SL cars the only ones (except maybe the 5-speed manual cars) that had the 4.08 ratio? Do you have disk brakes in the rear?
Rodd
Rodd
There are drum brakes in the rear and I have never seen anything to indicate that the axle has ever been changed, The SL stamp would seem to indicate that the axle isn't from a sedan,I think the 110 & 111 sedans had narrower drums w/o fins. As I said I was surprized to find this axle.
66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket
-
Hey to all
I finally got 500miles on my engine rebuild so I changed out the non-detergent break in oil and filter, re-torqued the head bolts and after the engine cooled overnight, re-adjusted the valves.
I decided that I would try some experiments with the starting solenoids because I have been having hot start problems.
To get the motor to start hot I would need to hold the throttle wide open, and then only after a long crank would it take off.
For some reason I thought the injector lines were draining back and I needed to get more fuel from the rack. So I tried connecting the solenoid on the injection pump directly to the starter. That made it even worse. I was in fact getting too much fuel on hot start.
After disconnecting the pump solenoid wire I tried unplugging the 1 second switch (the round can between the cold start relay and the wiper relay). After that it would start instantly without touching the throttle. A check with a test lamp at the #7 injector showed that the timer had become a 3 second switch. Now I have to reconnect the pump solenoid back to the original circuit (Parallel to the #7 injector), and I will leave the “extra second” switch unplugged, I may try later on to take it apart and recalibrate it by bending the bi-metallic contacts till it only stays on for only 1 second and try it again. But with it unplugged the car hot starts better than it ever did 25 years ago.
I finally received my front fender patch panels, ¾ rear fender panels, rear frame dog-legs and a left rocker panel cover. But I am having so much fun running around with the car in “bomber” condition that I am reluctant to start into the body work just yet; knowing that once I start it will be months before I will get to drive it again.
Nick and I spent yesterday afternoon running around town trying to do errands. We didn’t get anything done but it really didn’t matter because were driving the SL. This afternoon we will work on teaching Nick to drive a stick shift.
Just for this reason I installed a second hand clutch disc instead of a new one. There isn’t any need to put in a fresh new one until after he burns up the clutch learning to drive.
Later
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/al_lieffring/20061214125558_Sig%20grey.jpg)
66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket
-
After I reconnected the solenoid on the injection pump. I took the car around to warm up the engine so I could see how it would hot start.
As I was driving, what yesterday started out as a little stumble at 2500 rpm became more constant, by the time I got home I was running full throttle just to pull up a hill.
As I suspected the fuel filter was completly plugged up and the filter housing had a 1/2 inch of rusty silt down in the bottom.
I cut apart the filter and found that it had two layers of thick felt for the filter media instead of corregated paper.
Because this is how I rembered diesel filters were constructed I checked the Hengst number at thier web site and sure enough it is listed as a diesel filter.
While I appreciate the fact that all of this trapped crud was kept out of my injection system, I need something that will last for more than 500 miles between changes.
Are the paper (gasoline) fuel filters still available, from the aftermarket or from MBZ? Was this just a bad substitution by the parts house? or are only the felt (diesel) filters available now?
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/al_lieffring/20061214105252_SigII.jpg)
66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket
-
Hello Al,
Yes these original fuel filters are still easily available. the last batch I got from the dealer for less than $10.00 ea. (Cheap insurance compared to new injectors or an injection pump!!) Mercedes is now supplying a Bosch made in Spain filter, Bosch #1 457 431 261 or Mercedes # 000 477 6415 The diesel filters are quite a bit similar in size and fit as you noticed.
You may have to re-clean the intake screen of your electric fuel pump and fuel tank at some point.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
-
quote:
Originally posted by al_lieffring
A check with a test lamp at the #7 injector showed that the timer had become a 3 second switch. Now I have to reconnect the pump solenoid back to the original circuit (Parallel to the #7 injector), and I will leave the “extra second” switch unplugged, I may try later on to take it apart and recalibrate it by bending the bi-metallic contacts till it only stays on for only 1 second and try it again. But with it unplugged the car hot starts better than it ever did 25 years ago.
Hey Al
There is an adjusting screw see this thread
http://index.php?topic=3395,second,relay
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
-
Hey to all
I am still having fuel starvation problems. Yesterday morning I drove into Athens for Sunday School. When I started out the fuel gage showed a little below 1/2 tank, the trip is about 30 miles, it should have been no problem getting there. About 2 miles before my exit the reserve light came on, this didn't seem right, but the reserve, i thought, would take me another 40 miles or so. Going around the clover leaf exit the motor started to starve for fuel. The motor kept running at the stop light but when climbing up the grade to the Church parking lot the motor started to starve again. I rolled into a parking spot with the motor stalled, and it wouldn't restart. Andrew drove to church seperatly so I rode home with him.
I went back to get the car this morning with gas can in hand. Before I added any fuel to the tank I turned on the swith the gage showed 1/4 tank I could hear the air purge out of the fuel lines and the pump load down once they were filled, the motor started right up.
This indicates to me that when the tank is below 1/4 full the baffled well (flower pot) is getting pumped out faster than the fuel can flow back in. I guess I need to drain the tank, check the screen, remove the float sensor to see what kind of junk is in the bottom of the plastic baffle and look for a way to open up the passages without sawing the tank in half.
What would happen if I were to drill (by hand, not wise to use a electric drill here) a couple of holes through the plastic with a 3/8" paddle bit and get some more fuel to flow in?
Owning a 40 year old car sure can make life into an adventure.
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/al_lieffring/20061214105252_SigII.jpg)
66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket
-
Hello Al,
You are literally running out of fuel when the fuel level in the tank becomes lower than the top rim of the "flower pot". Most likely the intake port of the flower pot is blocked with crud.
You can drain the tank, remove the fuel sender in the trunk and use a wire to clear the intake port in the "flower pot". After all the fuel is safely drained and stored, the tank can be flushed. You can use compressed air and a long nozzle to clear the port, working through the fuel sender opening. Be cautious around the gas fumes. Best to work outdoors in a well ventilated area. Contaminatd fuel or water should be disposed of properly and safely.
If you drain and dry the tank before you begin you should not generate much or any waste. Fuel can be strained, filtered and reused.
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) flower pot 8.JPG (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/ja17/20061218215119_flower%20pot%208.JPG)
63.13 KB
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
-
Dear Pagoda Paisanos, JA is right about the fuel return line. "When there's blockage in the Shroud of Fuelin, There will be no Pagoda Tourin". The best way to get the rust out of the fuel tank is to turn the car upside down and shake it-the rust will come the open level sender hole. Seriously, makeup gasoline to the inside of the Shroud of Fuelin comes over the top and/or the four corners of the square space around the 10 mm fuel return line at the base of the Shroud. If rust accumulates in the tank, this passage is blocked and the fuel pump is starved when the gas level is below the top. Carefully, carefully(gas explosion hazard precautions) drain the tank fully, vacuum the rust out (with a long hose to a vacuum tank-no motor running). Otherwise, buy a new tank for mucho $$$.
-
quote:
Originally posted by glennard
Dear Pagoda Paisanos, JA is right about the fuel return line. "When there's blockage in the Shroud of Fuelin, There will be no Pagoda Tourin". The best way to get the rust out of the fuel tank is to turn the car upside down and shake it-the rust will come the open level sender hole. Seriously, makeup gasoline to the inside of the Shroud of Fuelin comes over the top and/or the four corners of the square space around the 10 mm fuel return line at the base of the Shroud. If rust accumulates in the tank, this passage is blocked and the fuel pump is starved when the gas level is below the top. Carefully, carefully(gas explosion hazard precautions) drain the tank fully, vacuum the rust out (with a long hose to a vacuum tank-no motor running). Otherwise, buy a new tank for mucho $$$.
As one who had done this curious and expensive exercise let me say this: if you have rust in your tank, where did it come from? Did you add powdered rust by mistake? Did it come from that El Cheapo gasoline you bought? Probably not. It comes from the tank itself. If you have rust in your tank, the metal surfaces are compromised. Anything short of replacement of the tank is a temporary measure.
Your time is best spent not trying to avoid the tank and or line replacement, but working overtime to pay for it...
Good Luck Al!
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
-
Joe
Thanks for the part# for the gasoline filters, Local MBZ has 2 coming my way, and thanks for posting the flower pot pic. Now I have a better idea where to look for the rust clog.
Michael
Back in August when I took out the drain plug from the tank and nothing came out though the tank was 1/2 full, I knew that eventualy I would need to replace the tank.
I unfortunatly have already replaced the tank once, about a year before I quit driving the car, (1980)
I'll just do what I can to get by till I can pony up the scratch to get a (another) new tank.
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/al_lieffring/20061214105252_SigII.jpg)
66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket
-
Hello glennard,
I am not sure using an electric vacuum around all those gas fumes is a good idea (explosion hazard as the fuel fumes get sucked near the electric vacuum motor). I have a small portable compressed air vacuum which just plugs into my shop air hose. This is safe and works well.
Try draining the tank, removing the fuel sender, filler cap and drain pug, then thoroughly dry the inside of the tank with a air hose. When the tank is dry and fume free, flush the tank with a less flammable liquid (even water). Dry the tank again, strain and filter the saved gasoline for re-use or use it in something less valuable, like your lawn mower.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
-
Hey to all
I drained out the tank and pulled the float sensor to look for the blockage that was starving my fuel delivery. I put a piece of hose from the fuel pump to a fuel can and used the pump to empty the tank. The pump would empty the flower pot in about 5 seconds and then only a trickle of fuel would come out. It took about 20 minutes to get that last 5 galons out of the tank. I removed the fuel pump fuse and ran a jumper from the battery to the #4 lug on the fuse box so that the pump would run without power to the ignition, to avoid overheating the coil.
Once the tank was emptied I took a LED flashlight and looking through the float sensor hole found that there was a buildup of crud in the outer ring of the flower pot, and then used a blower nozzle with an extension made of 1/4" metal tubing that I bent to shape to get into the hard to reach areas.
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/al_lieffring/200612219432_chicane.jpg)
Being the eternal optomist I figure there can only be a finite amount of crud deposits up in my tank and after a couple of cleanings and filter changes I gan get my tank to a managable state of cleanliness. I don't think this is a new buildup, but an area that I didn't get cleaned out in my first attempt at flushing out the tank.
It may have turned out to have been a good thing that I got those diesel filters with a much highter level of filtration, to keep all that junk away from the injector pump and nozzels. I bought two filters anticipating the first one would clog up right away. I have the second one installed now (also a diesel filter) and I might as well leave it in for a while so that any remaining loose pieces stirred up when I cleaned out the flower pot will get strained out.
Then I will change back to the full-flow gasoline filter after about 2 or 3 more tank fill ups (MBZ parts counter just called 5 minutes ago saying the filters were in). I think I'll keep the spare filter and a 13mm wrench in the trunk just in case. I'm also a realist.
Merry Christmas
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/al_lieffring/20061214125558_Sig%20grey.jpg)
66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket
-
Merry Christmas Al,
quote:
Once the tank was emptied I took a LED flashlight and looking through the float sensor hole found that there was a buildup of crud in the outer ring of the flower pot
The crud may be coming from the inside of the fuel return line. May be worth checking/replacing.
I used an old outer heater cable thru the return line to clean the area marked in your picture. Works well.
Glad to hear you 'stuck' with the diesel fuel filters. I use them all the time and find no disadvantages or fuel starvation problems during normal use.
naj
68 280SL
-
Hey to Ya'll
I still havn't found my fuel starvation problem. The car will start up instantly and run strong for about 20 miles then it stumbles on acceleration, getting progressivly worse and finaly stalling. Switching from the diesel filter to a gasoline filter didn't seem to make any difference. Yesterday I took the car out and after a short while it started acting up. It stumbled and bogged down barely making it up hills, running even worse when shifted down to lower gears. I finaly got to my destination and noticed that I couldn't hear the fuel pump running from inside the car. I crawled under the wheel well and put my hand on the fuel line to check if it was doing anything at all. It was turning but just barely detectable. After sitting about 20 mins I turned on the key and could hear the normal fuel punp whine and the motor started right back up and ran for about 10 miles then started acting up again, I pulled off the road and again almost no sound from the fuel pump. I parked and let it rest for about 10 minutes, started it back up and made it the rest of the way home.
I am reluctant to start throwing expensive parts at the car in the hope the problems will go away. I still have the original large style fuel pump, and would like to keep it if at all possible. I have a second hand late style pump that doesen't sound like it runs at full speed when installed.
My next step will be to power up the fuel pump with a jumper from the battery to the fuse box and leave it (the pump) running for about a half an hour and then check the voltage, ground connections, the fuel flow etc and see if I can reproduce the same symptoms in the shop as I am finding out on the road.
If any one can think of something else I should be looking at please let me know.
Thanx I realy all the help I have been getting from ya'll
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/al_lieffring/20061214125558_Sig%20grey.jpg)
66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket
-
Sounds like you've found a likely culprit. Search the forums for fuel pump rebuild and you'll find lots of info. No need to spend hundreds($$$) on a pump when you can spend dozens($) on a rebuild kit.
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
-
Al,
Check the wiring harness from the trunk to the fuel pump. When I had similar problems (AFTER the fuel tank issue which we discussed) I went to replace the fuel pump (thankfully I was given one so it didn't cost me anything) and discovered that during the restoration, the wiring must have been cut, and then replaced with crimp connections under the car which were then taped up. All looked well, but the + wire just fell off.
I would NEVER have discovered this had I not removed the pump!
What they SHOULD have done is pull the wires back through the grommet in the trunk floor.
My solution was new wire affixed in the trunk (no crimps outside the car body!!!)
Have not put a lot of miles on it since the fix but it seemed to correct a problem. A dangling + wire that makes a poor connection might not have been the source of my issue, but it couldn't be good.
This fuel pump works 100% of the time. Any issues such as low voltage will cause problems as I've discovered. May your issue be as easy as wiring.
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
-
Al, Now that you're in your sixth decade--. If there is crud in the tank bottom, it will block the makeup gas into the quart size 'Shroud of Fuelin' when the tank level is below the top of the plastic container. The make up gas must enter around the 3/8" return line from the injection pump. This is the area between the circle and a square. A test for free flow is- 1. Have tank level below the top of the Shroud. 2. Set a 5 gallon bucket under suction hose to the electric fuel pump. 3. Loosen the suction hose between the tank and the electric fuel pump. 4. Drain into bucket. If the tank is 'cruddy', the gas will run fast for the quart or so in the Shroud then slow as the restricting crud blocks the flow. If the tank is not cruddy, the flow will be constant until the tank is empty. Obviously, reconnect the hose before---
I have had tanks that drained the one quart and stopped, zero, da nada. Dropped the tank, drained it, turned it upside down, shooked it, vacuumed it- good for another ten years.
-
Hello Al,
I had this fuel starvation problem on my 230 when I first got it. It had been stored in a barn for 12 years and the fuel lines had rotted from the inside. The crud from the feed line landed in the fuel filter and easily removed, but the sediment from the return line ended up in the tank and blocked the line to the 'flower pot'.
The car would run okay even upto 50 miles in the winter, but once the weather warmed up, it was good for just 10 to 15 minutes. Fuel was not circulating and I believe the little fuel in the electric pump just churned about, warmed up and evoparated. That caused the car to stall. There is a bleed screw on the main engine filter and if I let some fuel run out of it for about 20 seconds - till some warm fuel ran out, the engine would start and run again for a while.
It took about 3 months to find the blockage and once the radiator repairer cut the tank open and cleared the blockage, the car ran fine.
Maybe you want to try the bleed test the next time it stalls...
Hope this helps.
I was in Ga. last week but Bishop was a bit out of the way of my travels. Maybe next time I will stop by...
naj
68 280SL
-
Al,
As I recall from some of your earlier posts, this car sat for quite a while. If so, it would not surprise me if the fuel pump was cruded up both inside the pump housing and the motor portion. Sitting idle with old gasoline is one of the biggest killers of these pumps for two reasons. First, the gasoline tends to congeal in the pump housing freezing up the vane. It is not good enough to just clean the inlet filter! Attempts to run the pump once this happens can cause the windings to burn out or the main seal on the shaft to lose its ability to seal gasoline from the motor portion. This usually results when one tries to force the vane loose--there is a small tang which secures the main bellows seal to the shaft and this can break off allowing the seal to "float" on the shaft. Second, if any gasoline had leaked past the seal and made its way into the motor area, it tends to combine with the brush and commutator residue to form a paste like substance which tends to harden over time causing further problems--this most often occurs on pumps that have seen lengthy service with high brush and commutator wear. If the brushes or comm are excessively worn they also can cause intermittant operaton of the pump motor. The good news is the pump can be rebuilt even if the comm looks beyond wear limits. As someone else indicated, there are plenty of posts covering this. Hope this hlps.
Georg Des
-
Hey Ya'll
I have been running tests to track down my intermittant fuel starving, and much to my shagrin have found nothing conclusive. :x
First off changing the fuel filter seems to have made no difference, second if the tank is full or low doesn't seem to matter either.
Next test I removed the fuel pump fuse and ran a jumper to the #3 fuse tab through an ammeter to the battery (+). I left the pump running for most of the afternon (with a small charger attached to keep the battery from running down). The pump drew 4.6 amps with no change as it ran for about 3 hours (circulating through the fuel loop with the motor not running). I checked the pump volume at the return line from the pressure damper on the motor mount arm, and it pumped out a litre of fuel in about 15 seconds.
I then made an adapter to attach a pressure gage at the CSV fitting and the pump was producing about 12psi, and again I left the pump circulating fuel as the car sat in the garage with no drop in the pressure for over an hour. I re-checked the main filter, the tank screen and the inlet screen on the pump a few flecks of junk but not enough to make the car stall, I blew compressed air through all the lines. I disconected the PerTronic Ignition and reinstalled the points, condensor, and black Bosch coil because an intremittant HEI can also give similar symptoms.
With a fuel pressure hose running through the one of Kuhlmeister dash holes to the gage hanging from the rear view mirror I took the car out for a drive.
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/al_lieffring/2007110183928_fuelpressure.jpg)
The same symptoms as before, the car drove for about 20 minutes, the fuel pressure slowly dropped to 0 and the car eventualy stalled. I turned off the ignition and turned it back on. The pressure came back up for about 10 more miles, the motor stalls again, with the gage showing 0 I check the voltage at the pump and have 11.5 volts. I get back home and try installing my late style pump. I had to install a T fitting (the parts shop was closed, had to wait for another day to get one) into the return line for the bleeder fitting. I then attached the pump to the bracket with a couple of cable tie straps.
Again I take to the road with the gage still hanging from the mirror and again at 20 miles the pressure slowly drops to 0. I get home before the motor stalls, I remove the gas cap no noticable pressure or vacuuim, I loosten the fuel lines at the filter housing and fuel streams out but the pressure didn't come back up till I turn off the key and turn it back on again.
I drove the car again and went about 30 miles and the pressure stayed up for the entire test drive. That was last night and I havn't had a chance to try it again. Maybee if I am lucky whatever it was has pushed its way through the system and it will be OK for a while. I am going to leave the gage attached 'till I'm sure the problem doesn't come back.
Because the possibility of having two faulty pumps of two different styles that have the exact same symptoms is very unlikely, So I will be puting the original pump back, and reinstalling the PerTronics.
Tomorrow I have a job up on the north side of Athens, will see how it runs and let ya'll know.
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/al_lieffring/20061214125558_Sig%20grey.jpg)
66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket
-
quote:
Originally posted by George Des
Al,
As I recall from some of your earlier posts, this car sat for quite a while....
Georg Des
George and all
Before I first attempted running the pump (September) I removed and took it apart and found the impeller and screen was full of gunk like you said. I cleaned out the impeller, the screen, and got the tiny key back on the impeller shaft, took off the brush cover, could not smell gas or burnt insulation inside the motor housing, cleaned the commutator (almost no wear) blew out the dust with compressed air. About 2/3 of the brushes are remaining, and once the crud was cleaned from the impeller housing, the shaft turned freely.
The pump motor doesn't seem to be getting warm after it has been running for long periods. And on the bench it pumps like crazy, 10psi circulating, 15psi max. and 4 liters per minute.
If I am overlooking something I don't know what it would be.
Again thanks for all your help
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/al_lieffring/20061214125558_Sig%20grey.jpg)
66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket
-
quote:
Originally posted by al_lieffring
quote:
Originally posted by George Des
Al,
As I recall from some of your earlier posts, this car sat for quite a while....
Georg Des
George and all
Before I first attempted running the pump (September) I removed and took it apart and found the impeller and screen was full of gunk like you said. I cleaned out the impeller, the screen, and got the tiny key back on the impeller shaft, took off the brush cover, could not smell gas or burnt insulation inside the motor housing, cleaned the commutator (almost no wear) blew out the dust with compressed air. About 2/3 of the brushes are remaining, and once the crud was cleaned from the impeller housing, the shaft turned freely.
The pump motor doesn't seem to be getting warm after it has been running for long periods. And on the bench it pumps like crazy, 10psi circulating, 15psi max. and 4 liters per minute.
If I am overlooking something I don't know what it would be.
Again thanks for all your help
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/al_lieffring/20061214125558_Sig%20grey.jpg)
66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket
Hey Al
There is a fuel damper in the system. I was wondering if that could play up?
I believe they are almost never replaced or serviced.
What else is there that could reduce the fuel pressure?
it isn't
the fuel pump
the pump filter
main fuel filter
fuel lines
tank filter
Is the return inlet of the tank clear?
In discussions of the past it was mentioned that if the return to the 'flower pot' was blocked the fuel would sit in the lines and eventually boil causing vapour lock and fuel starvation.
Let me say this was discussed as a summer problem, however the engine bay of our cars gets pretty hot in all seasons.
The 3hr test you did in the garage provided a conclusive +ve test of the fuel pump.
However it was carried out with the car stationary with no bumping around so a constant fuel flow situation would exist.
While out driving the particles in the 'flower pot' would be moving around and end up blocking the return fuel inlet to the 'flower pot'.
scratching bald spot looking for answers.....
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
-
Hey Ya'll
I drove the car into Athens this morning, and the fuel pressure stayed at 11psi for the entire trip and back, and on a short errand this afternoon. I would have liked to have found something more conclusive as the cause, but for now, I am back on the road again.
If it acts up again I start shopping for a new fuel tank.
Cees
I have a spare fuel damper in my collection of spare parts, and I did try changing it, but failed to mention it in my list of test procedures, I changed it at the same time I reinstalled the points.
The damper is just a diaphram with a spring behind it. The damper is there as a noise buffer for the fuel return line. Don't see how it could make the pressure drop to 0 but I changed it out any way.
After dinner I'll be puting back the original fuel pump and reinstalling the PerTronic kit.
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/al_lieffring/20061214125558_Sig%20grey.jpg)
66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket
-
quote:
Originally posted by al_lieffring
I get back home and try installing my late style pump.....Again I take to the road with the gage still hanging from the mirror and again at 20 miles the pressure slowly drops to 0. I get home before the motor stalls.
I remove the gas cap no noticable pressure or vacuuim, I loosten the fuel lines at the filter housing and fuel streams out but the pressure didn't come back up till I turn off the key and turn it back on again.
I drove the car again and went about 30 miles and the pressure stayed up for the entire test drive.
Sounds like a possible blockage in a fuel line near the filter or diaphram? For a strange blockage example, see J.P. Mose's problem:
http://index.php?topic=4995
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
-
Hey Ya'll
I can't believe that I havn't posted a update on this thread since January. I realy havn't been doing much more than making minor adjustments with the mixture timing etc as I drive the car around town running errands. I have been leaning out the main rack one click at a time and have gotten it to where I am getting fairly decent mileage (for these cars) and it still makes good power without cutting out on cold start. I will leave it alone for the time being and just drive it.
When I was having the fuel starvation problem I removed the line fuel line form the #7 injector and had my fuel pressure guage attached there. That way I could at least get an indication about 5 minuites before the motor would stall. About two weeks ago I decided that I could trust the fuel delivery again and removed the gauge and re-attached the #7 injector. First thing I noticed was the idle was suddenly richer. Easy enough, I took the pintle out of the valve and cleaned up the taper with a Scotch-Brite pad and that eliminated the drip. But now that the valve is working again my car won't restart without a long crank and holding the throttle half open. It cold starts in the morning just great. And with the valve not operating it was restarting better than I remember it ever had in the past.
I may have to find some kind of temp swith that with a relay will either cut out either the #7 injector or open the ground to the enrichment solenoid when cranking up the warm motor. I have a dozen of so temp switches from emission controlls on 70's and 80's cars. Will have to do some experimenting. And because I am flooding out I sure don't need the extra fuel from the 1 second switch. I am now running with it unpluged. I also have several thermo time switches maybe the one I have now is staying on too long on warm starts.
I powered up my Becker Europa the other day, I found out that it is not a Europa II stereo, just a mono. The original tunes that were in the car when I got it was a tube type Becker Grand Prix with 3 bands and a signal seeking "Vunder Bar" tuner. The radio was dead when I got it and I only kept the face plate that fit the smaller radio opening of the 230 dash board, I adapted this face plate to bolt onto the Europa so that I could have a transistor radio in my dash. Of course now 30 years later I realise that I should have stuffed the old GP in a box and kept it. One thing that I did stash away was a 7 pin DIN jack that fits into the accesory plug on the back of the Europa. Since the "going back to original" ship had sailed away 30 years ago I went to Radio Shack and bought a miniature 1/8" headphone jack and mounted it in the faceplate next to the tuner knob and ran co-ax wires back to the DIN jack. Now I can plug a portable CD or MP3 into the front plate of the radio or unplug it and use the tuner.
Now I have to learn how to download music into an I-Pod, or I could just use my old Walk-Man casette player.
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/al_lieffring/200731143643_G.P.%20Ipod.jpg)
Another thing that I had stashed away was plug in style ignition switch and harness plug fron an old sedan that I had parted out. I had always wondered if the plug in style /8 ignition switch with the radio accesory circuit would work on a pre 68 lock assembly in place of the screw terminal switch. The bolt pattern is the same, and it fits right in place. The plug in switch has 3 more terminals than the screw terminal switch. there is the radio circuit, marked "R" and two plugs for both terminal 15 (switched power) and terminal 30 (unswitched power). One at a time I cut off the screw terminal rings from the harness and soldered the plug connectors on in thier place. Both terminal 30 and terminal 15 pins are bussed together so it doesn't matter which one is used. I ran a wire from the R circuit out to the fuse block on the right fenderwell next to the voltage regulator and back into the radio. And yes, it works. Now the radio accesory circuit has power when the key is in the #1 and #2 positions.
Annecdotal Flash Back Warning!
When we were kids we got a kick out of our 60 220S that said "Fart" on the ignition switch. And did you know that the key is also removable from the #1 garage position?
Sunday I left the car out in the rain and found the hardtop is leaking around all the windows, over the windshield and dripping out through the mirror and sun visor openings. Reseal hard top, one more thing to put on the list.
Ya'll have fun now. Hear?
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/al_lieffring/20061214105252_SigII.jpg)
66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket
-
Al,
Great post, you are twisted a bit more than I would have predicted for such a youngin'.
You say you are flooding out on warm start? Are you sure? Humor this old man and wire that valve on the intake to a momentary switch and see if that might do the trick. I actually use about 2 seconds of gas while cranking to get mine going when warm, and it works great, "your actual results may vary..."
Best,
g
'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon
-
Al,
Wow, you really have a rare engine in your car. A #7 injector, that means you have a 7 cylinder engine in your car. Whew, what does the power feel like?
Heehee! :D
Walter
1967 220SL-diesel- only 4 cylinders with 65 HP.
When I was having the fuel starvation problem I removed the line fuel line form the #7 injector and had my fuel pressure guage attached there.
-
quote:
Originally posted by waltklatt
Al,
Wow, you really have a rare engine in your car. A #7 injector, that means you have a 7 cylinder engine in your car. Whew, what does the power feel like?
Heehee! :D
Walter
1967 220SL-diesel- only 4 cylinders with 65 HP.
When I was having the fuel starvation problem I removed the line fuel line form the #7 injector and had my fuel pressure guage attached there.
Walt
When the Bosch D Jetronic EFI first came out I think it was the Volvo shop manuals that called the cold start valve the #5 injector. Because the Benzes we were working on had 6 cyls, in our shop it was called the #7 injector.
Al
66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket
-
quote:
Originally posted by al_lieffring
Hey Ya'll
maybe the one I have now is staying on too long on warm starts.
66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket
Hey Al,
I use a 12v led clipped to my cold start valve terminal as a visual test device.
If it comes on and then times out when starting a cold engine, you know the TTS and also the relay are working.
I am sure you know of the 'remove inj pump rod test' for hot idle
I think the car is still running way too rich even when hot.
Of course if the Inj Pump is old and not rebuilt then the check valves in it could need to be replaced. If the fuel can leak back after sitting for a while, this will contribute to you needing to hold the start key position longer and possible flooding.
To circumvent that situation on my car, I let the main fuel pump 'prime' the system for a while before starting it, hot or cold.
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
-
Hey Ya'll
I spent some time last night trying to sort through my hot restart issue.
When I drove this car back in the 70's I had a primer button under my dash to give the CSV an extra shot of fuel before I would start the car. The conventional wisdom was (is) these cars need more fuel to get them started. One of my goals is to get the injection set up to where it will start without cranking for 10 seconds followed by the plume of grey smoke and to eliminate the need for a button hanging under my dash board.
The first thing that I found out was that on my car both the pump solenoid and the CSV are wired in paralell. I had always thought that the pump solenoid engaged any time the starter was cranking, and the thremo-time controlled the CSV. I now know that there were many production changes over the years on how these were wired.
I found out that on my car when either starting aid is disconnected the hot restart improves. I had been driving the last couple of weeks with the one second timer unplugged and the CSV disconected and the car restarted better than it ever had before.
Also the thermo-time switch is delivering the right amount of fuel on a cold start up when connected to both starting aids.
I took off the cover on the one second timer, found the calibrating screw and set it as close tp 1 second as I could.
With the 1 sec. timer switching on only the CSV and the pump solenoid disconnected the motor warm-starts almost instantly without touching the throttle.
In fact when I checked the start up with a test light connected to the pump solenoid the motor never warm-starts untill after the power to the solenoid switches off (with or without the CSV connected) and then the motor stumbles for about 2 or 3 seconds untill the excess fuel clears out.
I see two options here, 1. I could connect a temp switch to open the ground on the pump solenoid when the engine is over 100deg (f) the problem is where to put it. I could scrounge around and maybee find a thermostat cover for a m130 sedan and put one in place of the 212 switch because there are no extra holes tapped out on a 127 motor for mounting one.
Or 2. I could install another relay and have the 1sec. timer controll only the CSV. And the thermo-time and cold start relay controll the pump solenoid seperatly. I have extra relays, and I like to solder, I think this is what I'll try next.
It's a sunny day, I think I'll go ride my unicycle instead.
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/al_lieffring/20061214105252_SigII.jpg)
66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket
-
Hello Al,
The 230SL starting devices were especially confusing. There are two types and they are designated version II and version III in the manuals to make matters more confusing.
On version II (early 230SLs) the intake solenoid is activated during the entire starting period. The injection pump solenoid is activated one second during starting above 41 deg. F. (5 deg. C). Below 41 deg. F. (5 deg. C.) the activation period increases as temperatures become colder, up to 17 seconds at 0 deg. F. (-20 deg. C.) via the thermo time switch and relay.
On version III (later 230SLs) at temperatures above 95 deg. F (35deg. C) both the intake solenoid and the injection pump starting solenoid operate for one second while the starter is activated via relay.
At temperatures below 95 deg. F (35 deg. C) both operate for at an increasing duration as temperature is lower (up to 17 sec. @ 0 deg. F. (-20 deg. C.), vial the thermo time switch and relay.
To improve hot starting characteristics the factory manuals state "early versions II can be converted to the later version III by replacing the original 5 deg. C. thermo time switch with the later 35 deg. C. thermo time switch. The original wire is detached from the original thermo switch and the ring terminal is reamed to 5mm and connected to the "W" terminal of the new thermo time switch.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
-
Joe,
Just to be clear, you say the CSV is actuated during cranking on the early version 230sl, regardless of temp.? And for the entire cranking?
Thanks,
g
'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon
-
In all the MB and independent literature and dcoumentation- and all the 30 or so MFI engines I've had- don't think ever have seen all the temp, pressure, solenoids, relays, etc, ever wired the same! At least on the analog systems you can see the logic. New computerized stuff-- Who knows? The 'under the dash' switch - voila!
-
Hello Greg,
Here is my graphical interpretation of the starting aids. It's easier to understand.
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) 230SLa.JPG (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/ja17/200734231224_230SLa.JPG)
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Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) 230SLb.JPG (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/ja17/200734231334_230SLb.JPG)
71.43 KB
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) 250280c.JPG (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/ja17/200734231659_250280c.JPG)
82.96 KB
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) 280SL.JPG (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/ja17/200734232155_280SL.JPG)
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I know what you mean Glenn, there are many other versions for various other models and years!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
-
quote:
Originally posted by al_lieffring
Hey Ya'll
I spent some time last night trying to sort through my hot restart issue.
When I drove this car back in the 70's I had a primer button under my dash to give the CSV an extra shot of fuel before I would start the car. The conventional wisdom was (is) these cars need more fuel to get them started. One of my goals is to get the injection set up to where it will start without cranking for 10 seconds followed by the plume of grey smoke and to eliminate the need for a button hanging under my dash board.
The first thing that I found out was that on my car both the pump solenoid and the CSV are wired in paralell. I had always thought that the pump solenoid engaged any time the starter was cranking, and the thremo-time controlled the CSV. I now know that there were many production changes over the years on how these were wired.
I found out that on my car when either starting aid is disconnected the hot restart improves. I had been driving the last couple of weeks with the one second timer unplugged and the CSV disconected and the car restarted better than it ever had before.
Also the thermo-time switch is delivering the right amount of fuel on a cold start up when connected to both starting aids.
I took off the cover on the one second timer, found the calibrating screw and set it as close tp 1 second as I could.
With the 1 sec. timer switching on only the CSV and the pump solenoid disconnected the motor warm-starts almost instantly without touching the throttle.
In fact when I checked the start up with a test light connected to the pump solenoid the motor never warm-starts untill after the power to the solenoid switches off (with or without the CSV connected) and then the motor stumbles for about 2 or 3 seconds untill the excess fuel clears out.
I see two options here, 1. I could connect a temp switch to open the ground on the pump solenoid when the engine is over 100deg (f) the problem is where to put it. I could scrounge around and maybee find a thermostat cover for a m130 sedan and put one in place of the 212 switch because there are no extra holes tapped out on a 127 motor for mounting one.
Or 2. I could install another relay and have the 1sec. timer controll only the CSV. And the thermo-time and cold start relay controll the pump solenoid seperatly. I have extra relays, and I like to solder, I think this is what I'll try next.
It's a sunny day, I think I'll go ride my unicycle instead.
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/al_lieffring/20061214105252_SigII.jpg)
66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket
Hey Alf,
I have the 250sl with a relay for each device... pump solenoid and CSV.
I added a '1 second time relay' so that I could dispense with pushing the under dash switch.
I have to wait 2-3 seconds for the extra fuel to dissipate as you say.
The TTS exclusively operates the relay for the CSV, while the Inj Pump solenoid is operated all the time the ignition key is in START position.
As an additional starting aid I installed an aftermarket by-pass relay for the ballast resistor.
Arthur Dalton (whatever happened to him?) discussed the advantages of this some time ago.
It was a cheap and easy mod to make.
regards
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
-
Thanks, Walter, that makes it perfectly clear. So the fact that my early model starts easier (when hot) with the momentary switch I installed is more an acknowledgment of the need for the improvement that Mercedes made in the later version than it is a testament to my engineering brilliance. Oh well.
Thanks again,
g
'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon
-
quote:
Originally posted by hands_aus
Hey Alf,
I have the 250sl with a relay for each device... pump solenoid and CSV.
I added a '1 second time relay' so that I could dispense with pushing the under dash switch.
I have to wait 2-3 seconds for the extra fuel to dissipate as you say.
The TTS exclusively operates the relay for the CSV, while the Inj Pump solenoid is operated all the time the ignition key is in START position.
As an additional starting aid I installed an aftermarket by-pass relay for the ballast resistor.
Arthur Dalton (whatever happened to him?) discussed the advantages of this some time ago.
It was a cheap and easy mod to make.
regards
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
hey Bob
Alf? I havn't been called that one in a while, it had to do with Frank Zappa's "St. Alphonzo's Pancake Breakfast", another story for another day.
My first attempt at modifying the starting aids was to connect them up the same as your 250sl, after that it would'nt start at all with the motor warmed up, untill I removed the wires from the pump solenoid. At that point I came to the conclusion that I was getting too much fuel on warm start up instead of it being too lean.
I also have a resistor bypass connected, the SR 59x starter has a bypass relay built into the solenoid and can be connected with a wire running from the larger of the two screw terminals to the + side of the ignition coil. I ran the wire along the battery cable around the front of the motor up to the coil I used zip ties to keep it clear of the crank pulleys and the exaust.
Here is a question.
Do all of the CSV's have the same spray volume? I have several of them and don't know if I have the original one installed now. could I have a 280 nozzle that is dumping in too much fuel?
Alan, A.L, Al, St. Alphonzo
66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket
-
Al,
Regarding the different type of Cold Start Valves, they do have different spray volumes.
My 230sl (chassis no 002525) has a CSV with the following number: EP/EV 2/3.
It's spray volume is less than a CSV with the designation EP/EV 2/5.
Hope it helps.
Jaco van der Walt
1964 230sl
1975 230.6
-
quote:
hey Bob
Alf? I havn't been called that one in a while, it had to do with Frank Zappa's "St. Alphonzo's Pancake Breakfast", another story for another day.
My first attempt at modifying the starting aids was to connect them up the same as your 250sl, after that it would'nt start at all with the motor warmed up, untill I removed the wires from the pump solenoid. At that point I came to the conclusion that I was getting too much fuel on warm start up instead of it being too lean.
I also have a resistor bypass connected, the SR 59x starter has a bypass relay built into the solenoid and can be connected with a wire running from the larger of the two screw terminals to the + side of the ignition coil. I ran the wire along the battery cable around the front of the motor up to the coil I used zip ties to keep it clear of the crank pulleys and the exaust.
Here is a question.
Do all of the CSV's have the same spray volume? I have several of them and don't know if I have the original one installed now. could I have a 280 nozzle that is dumping in too much fuel?
Alan, A.L, Al, St. Alphonzo
66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket
Alf?
Sorry mate, must have been a speck of dust on my glasses.
Strange situation in that you would need them both for a cold start but not for a hot start.
MB had several versions of the cold start system starting with the early 230sl.
It seems you are on the right track thinking of different volumes of delivery for the CSV.
One thing I noticed on a friends 280sl was that his CSV is physically smaller that the unit on my 250sl.
Of course the 280sl has a different inlet manifold also so maybe its CSV may need to deliver less fuel.
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
-
Hello all,
Here are some data extracted from the Service Manual (starting 1968) Series 108-113 Group 07-0/5.
Starting quantities cc/min at 0.5 atu test pressure:
EP/EV 2/2 70-80 (used on the 300sel 6.3)
EP/EV 2/4 118-132 (OD 61mm IP's with start solenoid)
EP/EV 2/5 138-152 (OD 36mm IP's without start solenoid)
I don't have the exact flow volume for the EP/EV 2/3 used on the early 230sl's, but it would slot in between EP/EV 2/2 and 2/4.
If a CSV (OD 61mm) with a higher flow volume is fitted to an engine with a starting solenoid on the back of the injection pump, it can result in an overrich condition when attempting a hot start.
Jaco van der Walt
1964 230sl
1975 230.6
-
Hey Ya'll
Yesterday I had to change the fuel filter for the fourth time though I have only driven the car about 2.000 miles since I put it back on the road.
There is a build up of sediment in the bottom of the canister up to the bottom of the filter each time I change it, It's time to give up on salvaging this old tank and just order a new one.
Should I order the larger 18 gallon tank for a 280SL? I imagine it would be about the same price.
I am discovering that my two favorite hobbies are incompatable
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/al_lieffring/2007425142115_mis-matched.jpg)
First, the weekend of the Blacklick, Ohio Pagoda meet is the same date as the North American Unicycle Club Convention in Saline, Michigan.
Though they are close enough to participate in parts of both events It still is going to be tough to choose which will have priority.
Second only the teensiest unicycles will fit in the trunk of a Pagoda.
At some point in the future I will weld up a receiver hitch of some sort that will bolt on under the bumper brackets, to hold a Coker or a M-uni, still there would be no place for a Giraffe.
Why does life have to be so difficult ;)
Al
66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket
-
Hello, Al,
quote:
Should I order the larger 18 gallon tank for a 280SL? I imagine it would be about the same price.
I was told by SLS one time I phoned them that the big 80 liter tank would fit in a 230 SL with a horizontal spare wheel on the left right of the trunk. (Thier price of an 80 liter tank was significantly less at the time - haven't checked today).
However, the link you posted of the Lawrenceville 230 SL has a picture of the fuel tank and it seems the electric fuel pump would be in the way of a wider tank????
I can't seem to find a picture of a 280 with tank showing. :oops:
Could be that the fuel pump is mounted differently?
Would be interested to see what you find.
naj
68 280SL
-
quote:
Originally posted by al_lieffring
First, the weekend of the Blacklick, Ohio Pagoda meet is the same date as the North American Unicycle Club Convention in Saline, Michigan.
Though they are close enough to participate in parts of both events It still is going to be tough to choose which will have priority.
Second only the teensiest unicycles will fit in the trunk of a Pagoda.
At some point in the future I will weld up a receiver hitch of some sort that will bolt on under the bumper brackets, to hold a Coker or a M-uni, still there would be no place for a Giraffe.
Why does life have to be so difficult ;)
Al
66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket
Al,
I've been to Blacklick, and I've been to Saline. In fact I don't live that far from Saline. Saline is no Blacklick. Blacklick has it all over Saline...
As far as the Unicycle thing, at last year's 50th anniversary MBCA affair in Chicago, there was a guy with a 300SL Roadster in the Concours. That and his bicycle were his two daily drivers; he had a custom hitch put on the 300SL and that's how he moved around.
I have no doubt you could concoct something for your 113 to transport a selection of Unicycles from wherever to wherever--and it would look great!
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
-
Hey Ya'll
I havn't been doing much other than driving the Pagoda around in it's current "bomber condition". It is still a thrill to drive this car when everything is working right. As long as I keep a clean fuel filter, the car is running stronger than it had ever did 30 years ago.
So this evening I decided to cruise over to Main Moon in Watkinsville for Chinese take-out. They only take cash, so first I had to go out to Epps Bridge and stop by the ATM at my bank. On the way I marvel at just how well the car seem to have been running lately, and wondered just how much longer this fuel filter would last. I'm just about to my Bank, climbing up a hill and just as I shift into 4th, a loud BANG and poppity pop pop pop along with a sudden loss of power, but the motor didn't stall I shut off the motor and pull off the road as quickly as possible. I wasn't too worried, I was pretty sure that a spark plug had come out of the cylinder head, I popped the bonnet and sure enough #5 plug was dangling by the wire, In the trunk I had a tool box, but it mostly had carpenter's tools, I'm just a foot off the shoulder and the cars are zooming by inches from my hind quarters as I was trying to get the plug threaded back in the head with a pair of needle nose pliars. It didn't take me too long to see that there were no threads left in the head.
I figured the car was as broken as it could get, fired the motor up with the plug dangling off to the side, turned around and headed back toward home.
What surprised me was that even with one cylinder missing, the motor idled faster (1500 rpm) with the plug out rather than slower.
With the plug hole open, the cylinder drawing down doesn't make any vacuum and instead lets air back into the intake when the valve opens. making the idle faster instead of slower.
I have a full schedule for Saturday, Rosemarie is flying home form Sao Paulo in the morning, so I won't be able to get a heli-coil installed untill after Church on Sunday afternoon. And only then I might get to watch the Saturday qualifyer and the Euro GP race from Nurburring. I'll have to catch it on my TiVo.
Al
Al Lieffring
66 230Sl
Jones'n for a new gas tank
-
Al, Try taking another plug out-maybe it'll idle even faster -2000 rpm or so. With 5 out, might idle at 4500?? Patent it!
-
The pagoda is back on the road again.
On Saturday morning I was supposed to pick mein Frau at the ATL, but the flight from Sao Paulo, Brazil to ATL was diverted, seems the Columbians would not give Delta permission for the flight to enter thier air space, so it cricled around all night and before running out of gas had to land in Puerto Rico. So this gave me a couple of extra hours to stop by the auto parts and pick up a Heli-Coil set and install it.
The first step on the instructions said to "remove cylinder head", Not in my plans, so I used a couple of old shop tricks to keep the aluminum crumbs out of the cylinder.
First I took off the valve cover to make sure the valves were both in the closed position, and the piston was down toward the bottom of the bore, otherwise the tap could hit against the valve or bottom out against the top of the piston.
Next I filled up the flutes of the tap with axle bearing grease, this catches most of the shavings. after taping out the hole oversize, I cranked over the motor to blow any crumbs out the plug hole (put valve cover back on first so you don't pump oil all over the exaust headers like I did)
Then I took some BrakeKlean to wash any remaining bits out and the clean grease off the threads. crank over a couple times more to clear the brake clean out of the cylinder,
Use an old spark plug with the gasket ring removed to install the new insert, Put Permatex on outside threads first before installing,
Remove spark plug and see if insert is installed flush, then use the expanding punch from the kit and tap with hammer to flare out the threads and lock the insert into place.
Reinstall plug with ring gasker, wait one hour for Prematex to set up.
Bolt down valve cover and reinstall linkage.
After I picked up mien Schatzi from the ATL and got back home, the pagoda fired right off. Running on all 6 again.
Fingers crossed it is running again.
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/al_lieffring/20061214105252_SigII.jpg)
Al Lieffring
66 230Sl
Jones'n for a new gas tank
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Al,
When you do the last step with the punch, doesn't the tab from the helicoil break off and fall into the cylinder? Or do you have an old shop trick for that too?
Did you decide to go to Blacklick? I'd love to meet you in person as after reading your chronicles you are now legendary in my mind.
Paul Tomey
Tierra Verde,FL
1968 280SL Light Ivory (Enjoy)
2002 Porsche 996TT (Track)
2003 Van Dieman Formula Car (Race)
2006 Yukon Denali (Tow Cars and Haul Kids)
-
quote:
Originally posted by ptomey
Al,
When you do the last step with the punch, doesn't the tab from the helicoil break off and fall into the cylinder? Or do you have an old shop trick for that too?
Did you decide to go to Blacklick? I'd love to meet you in person as after reading your chronicles you are now legendary in my mind.
Paul Tomey
Tierra Verde,FL
1968 280SL Light Ivory (Enjoy)
2002 Porsche 996TT (Track)
2003 Van Dieman Formula Car (Race)
2006 Yukon Denali (Tow Cars and Haul Kids)
Paul
The insert kit that I got at the NAPA store has the Heli-Coil brand but is not the coiled wire type insert. the "trick" on those was to snap off the tab using a pair of needle nose pliars.
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/al_lieffring/2007725115356_helicoil.jpg)
This kit was more like what I rember as a K.D. insert it is machined out of tubing with threads inside and out. With the added feature of the top three threads on the outside are knurled to bite into the aluminum when installed. Then the punch in the bottom of the package has a taper that expands the top of the insert to get a better bite. The old helix wire and K.D. inserts were notorious for backing out of the head when it came time to change the plugs, even with Locktite on the outside threads and Anti-sieze on the plug threads. When it is's time to change out these plugs I'll find out if this system works better than those old ones.
My plans to go to Blacklick don't look like they will work out.
Health problems with family members in Phoenix have taken a higher priority, Sorry. It sounds like it will be qute an event.
Me, a Legend :?: I don't think so, but possibly just a bit bigger than life ;) ;)
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/al_lieffring/20061214105252_SigII.jpg)
Al Lieffring
66 230Sl
Jones'n for a new gas tank
-
Hey Ya'll
When I put my motor back together last fall I had two starter motors to choose from One was the SR 59x that I had installed most likely back around 1979 or so. The other was the smaller style that was originally installed in these cars. There was a time when these wern't accepted as cores for a SR 59X and we had a big pile of the things, This one must have looked like the best of the bunch so I stashed it away.
I installed the the larger 59x because I wanted to hook up a ballast bypass, but from the first time I tried to crank the motor over about one of five times the sprague drive on the starter pinion would slip. Yesterday I pulled the starter out and once it was out I took a spray paint can and made a mark on the flywheel, then turned the motor over with a ratchet on the front crank nut, as I watched the flywheel teeth through the starter hole to make sure there were none missing or damaged.
I thought I would take both starters apart and put the pinion from the smaller starter onto the 59x. Once they were both apart it was obvious that no parts from either starter were interchangeable with the other. So I polished up the commutator with a Scotch Brite pad and cleaned up the shaft and greased up the bushings. and put it back in.
The 59x seemed to have more power than before, but the pinion still would grind every 1 out of 5 starts.
This morning I pulled the starter back out, with it out I looked for the paint mark that I had made yesterday, I wanted to make sure that the ring gear wasn't slipping on the flywheel. It is rare, but it can happen. I turned the crank with the front bolt and the paint spot still lined up.
So then I went through the factory original starter and inatalled it. I had to tape off the bypass wire at both ends because this early starter doesn't have a third terminal.
The starter engages every time now but the smaller power output is noticeable, It still spins right over but about 10%slower.
I'll check with Bud's Benz tomorrow to see if they have the pinion for the 59x. But now with the starter not grinding any more I won't have to worry about the ring gear getting chewed up. When I can get the pinion I'll switch back to the larger starter and reconnect the ballast bypass.
I bet most of ya'll are heading off to Blacklick as I type this,
Have a good time there and tell Joe that Al sez "Hey!" from Georgia.
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/al_lieffring/20061214105252_SigII.jpg)
Al Lieffring
66 230Sl
Jones'n for a new gas tank
-
Hey al,
I installed a ballast start-up by-pass relay.
A Dalton provided a sketch and description somewhere on here.
http://index.php?topic=4240&whichpage=1,by-pass,relay
It does the same job as the starter by-pass.
My early 250sl is a lot easier to start now it is getting 12v to the coil.
I used a normal c/o relay, cost about $6.00. I tucked it in the space under the hood/bonnet prop area behind the ballast.
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
-
hey Ya'll
The other day my older son Andrew walked into the kitchen from the garage, he turned to me and said that my radio was "an anachronism."
I had just installed a Sony CD player in the dash because I was tired of the old Becker that wouldn't pick up any of the stations that I listen to. I had always used that word in terms of something archaic in a modern setting, but he was correct, it also applies to something modern in old surroundings.
The Sony has the standard DIN mounting, because I didn't want to cut up the dash plate with the smaller opening of the earlier cars, I made a new plate with the larger opening. So if the occasion arises that I should find a working period correct Becker Grand Prix I could switch it back.
I also ended up adding a signal amplifier to the old Hirschmann antenna(manual), I understand these antennas with the removable coax cable have become quite rare. The one I have only had the antenna end of the cable, So I spliced in the amplifying circuit board and the radio end of the new cable to it. I actually did this before I removed the Becker, The reception was improved, but not enough to make the old analog tuner pick up my stations. Cruizin with the right tunes on is an important part of Pagodaing.
Nicholas and I have been working on his clutch driving, It is a good thing that I didn't install a new clutch when I rebuilt the motor last summer, because the disc and pressure plate are going to be roasted by the time that he gets the hang of it.
Nick isn't the most patient of students, and gets frustrated quite easily. It's not that he doesn't have the coordination to do it, he can ride a unicycle with only one foot on the pedals. But working three pedals with two feet was more of a challenge than he anticipated. I don't think that playing Forza Racing on his Game Cube has helped matters either.
We will go out for a couple more practice sessions and then maybe he will be confident enough to drive by his-self.
Fortunately, I have the patience of Job, and we will make a stick shift driver out of him eventually.
Al Lieffring
66 230Sl
Jones'n for a new gas tank
-
quote:
Originally posted by al_lieffring
.. BTW I'm 49 years old today ..
Darn - We missed your BIG 50.[:0]
Happy birthday Al belatedly and and even happier Pagoda cruising for the next 50 years.
But keep on writing those mu-mu-mu installments, they are cool. 8)
Alfred
1966 blue 230SL automatic
-
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/al_lieffring/2007920163636_MuMuMuMyPagoda.jpg)
Al Lieffring
66 230Sl
Jones'n for a new gas tank
-
Hey Ya'll
This past week, after reading through threads on what distributor matches what 230sl motor and what throttle body has the correct potring for that distributor, I thought I should take a closer look at what was under the hood of my car.
When I bought the car in 76 the distributor had been replaced with an aluminum distributor with one piece points and the vac. retard pot with the slip on hose fitting. Not sure what Bosch #it was but it was the distributor that was made for 1970 280sl with a TSZ system. At the time that was what MB dealers sold as the replacement part, all the others were listed as no longer available. I scrounged around and found several used 051 distributors and pieced together the best parts of them into the distributor that I have now.
I had the mistaken notion that all cars 69 and older had "ported" vacuum advance, that only delivered vacuum when the throttle was tippen in. When working on these cars years ago there was so little time to do more than just the basics when doing a flat rate tune up, that I just assumed that because the vacuuim on these cars didn't seem to do much at idle, that the cars all had ported vacuum.
After reading through the thread
http://index.php?topic=1553
I went out and looked to see if the port was above the throttle plate (vac advance) or below (vac retard) It was below, but when I attached a guage there was only a trace of vac. there no matter where I set the throttle plate stop screw.
When I had the motor apart last summer I saw that there was a thin layer of grime in the throttle body, but thought that it wasn't enough to make any difference so I installed it as it was.
Thursday I pulled off the throttle body and put it to soak in my ultra sonic parts cleaner, It came out sparkling clean, I took a piece of tag wire and ran it through the vac. port to make sure there was no obstruction, I adjusted the throttle stop to where the plate was completely closed but resting on the stop screw so the plate didn't stick against the housing. As Dan suggested I checked to see if the port was open whith the throttle closed, It was only about 1/2 uncovered so I took a file and made a small grove in the back side of the throttle plate to where the port was completely uncovered.
When I reinstalled the throttle body the linkage rod was almost 3/16" (5mm) too long, and I had to readjust the ball ends. It is hard to believe that that thin coat of gunk would make that much difference in the throttle position,
Now when I detach the vac hose at idle the RPMs jump up from 800 to 1100 and back down when reattached.
This one little thing doesn't realy make a profound difference in how the car runs, but each of these small details that I get set back to right the better the car ends up working over-all.
When I had the hood up I noticed a leak in a radiator core tube, looks like I am going to end up needing a recore, In August when the outside temp was up around 105f. the engine temp was just below the 200 mark when out on the road at speeds over 70mph.
Not hot enough to do any damage, but this car had never ran over 180 even with the A/C on. One more thing to add to the list, I'll do a complete cooling system flush before I send the radiator out. I had already put a tube of radiator stop leak in when I built the motor, so it looks like a recore is my only real option. Does anyone make a reproduction radiator that is worth a hoot?
Later
Al Lieffring
66 230Sl
New blue top just arrived
new gas tank on order
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Hey Ya'll
It's been like Christmas here, this week I got the new 85 litre fuel tank and a new canvas top. The top will wait for later, but I started work on the fuel tank as soon as the Big Brown Truck dropped off the package and had cleared my driveway.
A year ago I thought that I could just clean out all the crud from my old tank, After dozens of procedures trying to get all of this gunk out of the flower pot, strainers and screens, the car would still only run for about 2 weeks on a new fuel filter before hot start problems and stumbling would show up again, then after about 500 miles of driving I would have to change the main fuel filter and find an inch of rusty sludge in the bottom of the filter canister.
I found that my notion that there was only a finite quantity of sludge in the bottom of the tank, and that it would eventually work it's way out of the system was completely in error. Sludge never sleeps, it never dies, it is always there impatiently waiting to plug up the filters and screens at the worst possible moments. I whipped out my Visa Card and now my new tank is here.
I got the larger 280sl tank, it is about $140 less than the smaller 230sl tank, but the extra width makes some modifications of the fuel pump mounting necessary. I havn't taken any photos yet, because at the time I was soaked in gasoline, I didn't think flash photography was prudent.
Basically I rotated the pump bracket about 90deg clockwise and mounted it an inch forward of the original position. I have it installed temporarily with just one bolt, I will eventually weld up an adapter.
To mount the gravel shield "coffee can", I had to remove a large section of the rear half of the can. The back of the can is open on a 280 sl to clear the tank, I made two pieces of 1/4x 1" strap drilled and tapped them to hold the shield in place 1" forward of its original position.
Initial testing; I was able to start up the car with just one gallon of fuel in the tank, Before I had been limited to the top half of the tank before it would starve for fuel, even after many cleanings of the flower pot, it would help for a week or two and would plug back up again.
I then filled up the new tank completely, the extra weight is noticeable, it is about like driving with 2 bags of cement in the trunk, The rear end sits just slightly lower when filled completely and the hard top is installed, I may eventually add about 1/2" to the rear spring rubbers.
My goal was to make the car drivable enough to run for more than the 50 miles that the car was limited to before fuel starvation would take over. We will have to see how well this actually works out.
If any one is interested in upgrading with the larger 85 litre tank into a 230, I will take some photos and give more detailed specifications of my modifications.
Al Lieffring
66 230Sl
a-cheesin with a new 85 l. tank
-
quote:
If any one is interested in upgrading with the larger 85 litre tank into a 230, I will take some photos and give more detailed specifications of my modifications.
Yes Please, AL,
It will be a good addition for the 'wiki'
naj
68 280SL
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Al, Am interested in the old tank. 617 947 6399. Thanx
-
quote:
Originally posted by glennard
Al, Am interested in the old tank. 617 947 6399. Thanx
Glen
When I was trying to drain the fuel out of the tank I punched a hole through the flower pot to get the bottom half of the tank to drain, I ended up haveing to punch a hole through the bottom of the tank to get it to empty completely.
If you'r near the Atlanta area (50 miles east) and want to pick it up it is yours.
Al Lieffring
66 230Sl
a-cheesin with a new 85 l. tank
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Al,
I finally put aside an hour and read from start to finish (so to speak). Very interesting indeed. I have been out of the Pagoda loop since mid '06. I purchased a 560SL in June '06, a 300D W123 in Feb '07...gave to relative and purchased a 300SD W116 in July '07. My New Years resolution for 2008(after I had Ron's Restorations in Sharpsburg, GA redo my leather in the 560SL in Dec. '07) was to spend all my car time back on the Pagoda. Hence, I am doing a lot of catching up on my reading!
You asked back in October if there was a reliable after market radiator available? Tigris International in Houston makes reproduction radiators for W113 and has the correct size for a 230SL. I recall reading that they are very correct looking and perform well. I think they are $420 each plus $35 shipping. Here is information out of Hemmings:
RADIATORS: new, 230, 250, 280SL, body W113, heavy duty, extra cooling power, 1966-1971. Tigris International, 713-628-1362, TX; tigrisint@yahoo.com
I am getting ready to recore mine to a three row. It is original and has paint chipped off, etc. It works well but gets up to around 200F on the highway in July. I spoke with Marietta Radiator, as they came highly recommended. They said it should cost more than $450 to recore it and they paint it the correct luster of black. I think I rather keep my original one (especially since they are over $2,000 wholesale at the dealer!).
Good luck and keep us posted!
Best Regards,
J. P. Mose
1968 250SL
1987 560SL
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hey Ya'll
Thanks J.P. for the leads on the radiator, I will be looking into replacing or recoring mine before the summer comes. First I'll do a chemical flush of the block while the old radiator is in so I don't have to expose the new one to the corrosive cleaning solvent.
My SL has mostly been parked since the first of the year, I now have an 08 Chevy HHR Pannel van I use for my business and also so I won't rack up as many miles on the roadster. The insurance I have is only for 7k miles per year. If my odometer were still working it'd show I went over that amount last year, just running errands around town.
Since I installed the new 85 litre tank, the motor hasn't so much as made a hickup, it has been running and starting and restarting, exceptionally well. Yesterday was a unseasonally warm day so I deciced I would try to do something to get the rear suspension to support the extra weight of the larger fuel capacity.
Way, way back in the day, There used to be a spring kit for the 108 sedans that was sold by Benz as a lower cost replacement option for the hydro-pneumatic compensator. I only mention this because I remember it only taking about 20 minutes for me to install one of these kits. So I thought it would be no big deal to drop down the center compensator spring, install a thicker spring pad against the axle, and swing up the bracket with a pair of big channel locks and a prybar The way I used to do it and I would be done in about an hour.
Well that didn't happen.
The 113 compensator spring is a smaller wire diameter and longer uncompressed length than that 108 sedan spring, in fact so much longer that I couldn't even fit the spring onto the bracket with one bolt out and the bracket rotated as far as it would go. I ended up having to fabricate a spring compressor out of an 1/2" all-thread rod and a couple pieces of 3/16 X 1" strap. When I first tried the compressor, the spring arched the wrong way, so I had to back the nut all the way off and make a hook at the bracket end of the spring, I compressed the spring all the way down again and this time the angle of the axle casting was holding the spring too far off center, so I had to back the compressor all the way off again, (I was only able to turn the wrech on the nut 1/12 of a turn at a time) I then had to make the compressor strap on the axle end short enough to fit flat into the recessed area of the axle casting (Where the hydro penumatic compensator's bushing would go). This time (finaly!!) every thing lined up just right and it all bolted together without having to force any thing.
The result, by installing a 3/4" thick spring pad I was able to raise the rear end by 1/2" measued at the wheel arch over the center of the hub cap Star. Now with a spirit level on the trim line of the door moulding it's just slightly higher at the rear with the tank full and the hard top on. Before it was drooping down in the rear.
I am not pleased enough with these results to reccomened this procedure to others, when I have time I will install the proper oversized pads on the rear springs to get the correct height, but for now it's O.K.
Al Lieffring
66 230SL
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Al,
Great to read your latest update to this most interesting thread.
By the way, a few years ago I too fabricated a compressor for the compensating spring using a threaded rod and some plates. I've since re-used it on three other rear axles with relative ease. Details can be found at http://sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=1642&whichpage=2. Needless to say, I'm very pleased with it.
For an alternate radiator source, I used DNT in Austin. They did excellent work on recoring my original with a new three-row (very reasonable rates too): DNT Recycling Inc, 705 W Saint Johns Ave, Austin, TX (512) 467-0063. They also boiled out my fuel tank last year.
Waqas in Austin, Texas
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The spring shown in Waquas' earlier thread looks to me like the shorter fatter spring from a 111 sedan.
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) comp springs.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/al_lieffring/200821785428_comp%20springs.jpg)
39.72 KB
I took a picture of my sl's spring, it still has the 113 part number visible on it, and resized the two images to the same scale. The top spring is from Waquas' thread, the lower is the spring from my SL.
As I mentioned in my post the shoter fatter spring was fairly easy to lever (I think my being 20 years old at that time factored into the equation) into place without a spring compressor, but the 113 spring is much too long to get into place without using a spring compressor.
Al Lieffring
66 230SL
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Interesting... so I have a sedan spring in my Pagoda. (Al, can you please post your original part number?)
Question: wouldn't the fatter spring be stiffer than the thinner one, assuming they are composed of similar materials? And shouldn't the SL spring be stiffer than the sedan one? Why or why not?
Waqas in Austin, Texas
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quote:
Originally posted by waqas
Interesting... so I have a sedan spring in my Pagoda. (Al, can you please post your original part number?)
Question: wouldn't the fatter spring be stiffer than the thinner one, assuming they are composed of similar materials? And shouldn't the SL spring be stiffer than the sedan one? Why or why not?
Waqas in Austin, Texas
I still got my Sunday go to meeting colthes on, so I cant crawl under there right now, I will look for you when I get a chance.
As for the engeneering advantage of one spring design for the sedan as opposed to the other for the roadster, I realy don't know why a short strong spring for a sedan and a weaker spring under more tension for the roadster was chosen, but the unloaded sedan of course has more weight over the rear axle, and it also has to function over a greater range of loading conditions with a larger trunk and 0-3 passengers in the rear.
Al Lieffring
66 230SL
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quote:
Originally posted by al_lieffring
Since I installed the new 85 litre tank, the motor hasn't so much as made a hickup, it has been running and starting and restarting, exceptionally well.
Al Lieffring
66 230SL
Is that a standard 280 SL tank? I've often thought that the larger tank would be a nice, and less expensive, upgrade. I believe the smaller 230 SL tank is more expensive, right?
Rodd
Pagoda Technical Manual
please contibute: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php
1966 230SL
2006 C230 Sport Sedan
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Hey Ya'll
I've spent some time over the past couple of days getting my top frame back into shape and installing the new cover.
When I was taking off the old cover, the bolt on the window frame that holds the tension cable on the left side broke where the cable passes through the hole, I ended up drilling out the broken off nub and making a new one out of a 6mm. bolt and welding it to the frame from the front side and grinding it smooth. The cables were all frayed too so I made up a new pair out of picture frame hanging cable and soldered an electrical ring terminal to the end where the chrome screw attaches it to the front bow.
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/al_lieffring/2008561857_raggtopp1.jpg)
Old: Robbins Top, German Cloth ca. 1977
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/al_lieffring/20085618649_raggtopp2.jpg)
New: World Upholstery, Stayfast Cloth.
As you can see from the photo, the rear glass was completely opaque, and the canvas looked O.K. but was so brittle that it tore any time it was handled. I ordered the Stayfast canvas top from World Upholstery last fall, Blue with the non textured tan interior and it had been in the trunk since then.
The Stayfast top isn't really that much cheaper than the Sonnendec top with the textured headliner, I just prefer the Stayfast (they used to be called Haarz) because the material is thinner and folds up more nicely. Besides a canvas top only lasts about 5 years. If I had a really nice car I'm sure I would have gotten another German cloth top, The one I took off had a 1977 date stamp on the window, that sounds like when I would have put that top on.
Back then the only tops that were available were Haarz canvas in black/black, black/tan or tan/tan, and German cloth in black, blue or brown with the tan herringbone headliner. At that time those three German cloth materials were the only colors available on M.B. factory replacement tops too.
Last week I stretched out the top fabric over the frame so it could flatten out before I began to attach it, Next morning Nick (my son) found Renault (our cat) out in the garage sleeping on it. I hadn't even started to install it and there was white cat fur all over my new blue top.
Later
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/al_lieffring/20061214105252_SigII.jpg)
I'm riding 50Km. on my Unicycle 18 May, 2008 in the Tour de Cure.
http://main.diabetes.org/goto/al.lieffring
Please help if you can by sponsoring my ride.
Al Lieffring
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Very nicely done!
1969 Euro 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.
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Nice work Al. Really dresses things up!
James
63 230SL
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This afternoon I was doing some P.M. work, changing the oil and filter, greasing up the front end, replacing the front brake pads and rotating the tires.
I noticed that the left front tire was wearing on the outside front edge. It seemed to me that this could be caused by too much positive camber, so I check the camber cams and find them both already adjusted all the way to the inside.
This is making me wonder if when I reassembled my front end I put the offset of the kingpins the wrong way. I put the front end together with the offset toward the inside (toward the shock) this would push the camber out.
Does this sound correct? do I need to take the king pin loose and rotate it 180deg so the offset of the upper outer bushing is to the outside? Is my terminology correct? positive camber = top of the tire leaning out?
I just want to make sure my thought process is correct before I tear the front end apart and take it back to the alignment shop.
Back when we were servicing these cars years ago, we always installed new brakde pads with an additional rubber coated sheet metal shim that was the same shape as the metal backing of the brake pad. They went between the back of the pads and the caliper piston. My old pads that I installed 30 years ago still had them in there, I dug through my parts stash and only found a single new one (not a set of 4) We used to buy them hundreds at a time. I haven't seen any mention of them here on the forum or any listing for them at any of the parts suppliers. Have modern brake materials made these "squeak shims" no longer necessary?
Have I asked too many questions in one posting?
Al
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quote:
Originally posted by al_lieffring
Back when we were servicing these cars years ago, we always installed new brakde pads with an additional rubber coated sheet metal shim that was the same shape as the metal backing of the brake pad. ..... Have modern brake materials made these "squeak shims" no longer necessary?
I reuse my old ones.
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Al, What offset? Isn't the top threaded pin centered on the vertical of the king pin? The eccentric bolt goes thru the threaded pin to vary the camber??? Lubed up good? The threaded pin and the eccentric bolt freeze up. The eccentric bolt gets no lubrication from the grease fitting. Grease just goes to the outside of the threaded pin. Anti seize the eccentric bolt on installation. You probably know all this already. Castor is adjusted by the cam bolts on the flat spring suspension.
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Whoo Hoo I just went gold post # 501
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My brother called me this morning and read an article from the Kansas City Star business section:
Lost lease
After 31 years, Brookside’s Star Motors Ltd. has lost its lease.
The high-end auto repair shop at 7 W. 62nd Terrace will close April 30 and relocate to 5400 Antioch Road in Merriam. It has 17 employees.
Owner Emery Zanagal said the Merriam space is a better location and closer to his customer base.
31 years ago was when my father and I moved our shop from the building in Waldo where we made the Wunderbug kits to the upscale Brookside shopping district in mid-town Kansas City. The Brookside building was a 1930's era Chrysler dealership that had been sitting vacant for about 10 yeas. it was an odd design with a central drive through and only a small area with a level floor that we enclosed for office space. When we leased the space the showroom was occupied by a paint store and a Vetrenarian Clinic. When Emery bought out the business he was able to get a lease on the entire building.
It's the end of an era, The "Brookside Cruisers" will ride no more. :(
Al