Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: bpossel on February 11, 2007, 08:33:11
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Which distributor is this? Found this on a parts site. Listed as a remanufactured one for a '71 280sl. Doesnt look like my current one!? Mine doesnt have the, what I think is the "oiler" plug, by the condensor? Mine is oiled via the felt pad under the rotor? Would this one work in my car?
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) 31302.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/bpossel/200721193037_31302.jpg)
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Thank you.
B.
bpossel (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL / '97 E320
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Bob,
It looks like an aluminum-bodied distributor that has been peened and cleaned in the remanufacturing process. That gives the aluminum an entirely different look. If they list it as the one for your car, they should have the Bosch number on it--but they probably removed the tag.
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
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Hi Mike,
I guess I am a bit (very...) uneducated on all of the various distributors that were installed in the 113's over the 9 years of production (iron, vs aluminum).
Surprisingly, the parts place that is selling this remanufactured one is open on Sundays, but they do not have the Bosch PN.
Question, as long as the distributor is aluminum, does this mean that it's a "retard" setup (vs advance) and will most likely work in my later 113?
Any ideas here?
Thanks!
Bob
bpossel (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL / '97 E320
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Looks an awful lot lke the cast iron 51 distributor with a new style vacuum box on it and maybe the new internal as well. Is the body cast iron or aluminum ?--that would be a real clue.
George Des
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Hello Bob what parts site is this?
Ernie
69 280SL w/cast iron 051 Dist.
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Hello Bob,
Here are some of my observations;
Both the later cast iron and the aluminum distributors were available with the vacuum retard arrangement. This "vacuum retard" term can be a confusing issue. The vacuum retard distributors were not just unique to "emission regulated" engines. On these vacuum retard distributors the ignition is set up to held in retarded mode until the throttle is opened which dumps the vacuum and causes the distributor to advance. At this point the centrifugal mechanism in the distributor regulates ignition advance and retard until the throttle is closed and vacuum increases retarding the ignition once again.
Of coarse any electronic timing relays added on for emmissions can be designed to control ignition advance and retard at different engine temperatures and rpms by controlling the vacuum.
The easiest way to distinguish the distributor type is to view which way the vacuum dash-pot is pointing. On vacuum retard distributors the vacuum dash-pot points in the opposite direction than those on the earliest version vacuum advance units (early 230SL).
Prior to the factory electronic ignition the distributors had ignition points with the "fork end" wire terminal connection (051 distributors and earlier). When the factory transistorized ignition was introduced the ignition points had the "clip type" (spade connector) wire terminal end and the aluminum distributor housing.
As far as I can tell, in later years, Bosch replacement distributors for these engines used the new aluminum housings and clip style ignition points on both version std. and transistorized ignitions. So the issue becomes very confusing. It seems Bosch assigns a new part number to the replacement distributors. A combination of the latest components are used to make up early and late versions depending on the application and a latter replacement distributor number is stamped on the unit at the Bosch factory. Owner's and technicians accidentally mix transistorized and non-transistorized components causing ignition problems. Replacement coils, ignition resistors and condensors have changed over the years to complicate the mix. The possible combination of components is astronomical with many combinations incorrect.
In general distributors with a single wire and terminal coming from the condensor are non transistorized ignitions. Distributors with two wire terminals on the wire coming from the condensor are for transistorized ignitions. The internal designs of the centrifical flyweights is a concern since this will effect ignition timing at higher rpms. Here is where we are dependant on factory part numbers, factory doicumentation or experimentation to guide us to correct usage.
I will try to post some photos of different combinations soon.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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I'm holding both a 0231116 051 (JFUR 6) w/cast iron body and a 0231185009 (JFUR6)with aluminum body in my hand and I'm comparing it to the picture you've included. The cast iron body one has the oiler and looks exactly like what you've got except for the vacuum box. However, the vacuum box on the aluminum distributor I have looks exactly like yours. Again, it looks to me like they've combined some newer parts on an older cast iron body.
George Des
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Here's the parts website:
http://www.rockauto.com./
I was very surprised to even find a rebuilt unit! It is very interesting in that if you search for replacements for earlier years (cast iron) you cant find a "match"???
I spoke to the salesperson earlier and I need to call back during the week when they can call and find out the actual PN and/or if cast iron or alum.
Comments?
Bob
bpossel (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL / '97 E320
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The parts place just called me and confirmed that this is the aluminum one.
As long as it's the aluminum version, will this work in my later '71 model 113 with the emission stuff?
Thanks!
Bob
bpossel (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL / '97 E320
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Bob,
If you order this distributor, please let us know what it is made of when you get it. If they are telling you it is aluminum, it must be cast aluminum, because it does not look at all like the aluminum bodied one I have. See my earlier post--my aluminum distributor was purchased as a replacement for my 051 several years ago--the internals on my original were pretty well worn--points were all but impossible to adjust-- and I could not find a 051 cast iron distributor to replace it at that time--was no ebay then--was no internet either--how on earth did we find parts back then?! I've since found an 051 that I rebuilt and now use that on my 230SL. I also have another 051 set up with a Pertronix that I may give another try some time--I had it installed for a short period and could not get it to perform as well as the points set up so I took it out.
George Des
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Hello, Bob,
I'm with George Des on this:
From the (not so clear) picture, the distributor body looks like cast iron (circular rings) and has the oiler as pointed out by George. The vacuum retard mech. looks like its from the later ali bodied distributor. It may work on your car but will it have the correct wieghts for centrifugal advance?
Bit of a mish-mash???
What's wrong with your distributor?
Sorry to throw a spanner in the works :oops:
naj
68 280SL
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Hi naj, George,
I recently had my distributor rebuilt. Prior to rebuild the shaft was very wobbly and the timing would jump back & forth by as much as 5 degrees. Now it's nice and tight, no timing jumps, and its clean and looks great!
BUT, I cant get the timing set per the book.
It does not "jump" around the 2200 range to 30 degrees BTDC. The only way for me to have it set to 30 degrees BTDC at 3000 RPMs is to have the lower end at ~10-15 degrees BTDC at 1000 RPMs in Park/Neutral(in gear the idle is ~800 RPMs). In this setup, the car is very responsive, but the high idle bothers me and when I shift from Park to a drive gear, I get a thud vs a smooth shift.
I have darn just about replaced eveything else, except the 2-way valve. It seems to test ok, but I have ordered a new one in order to fully eliminate this item as a possible culpit.
Thanks for your continued interest and comments, advice!
Bob
bpossel (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL / '97 E320
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Bob,
quote:
I recently had my distributor rebuilt. Prior to rebuild the shaft was very wobbly and the timing would jump back & forth by as much as 5 degrees. Now it's nice and tight, no timing jumps, and its clean and looks great!
BUT, I cant get the timing set per the book.
It does not "jump" around the 2200 range to 30 degrees BTDC. The only way for me to have it set to 30 degrees BTDC at 3000 RPMs is to have the lower end at ~10-15 degrees BTDC at 1000 RPMs in Park/Neutral(in gear the idle is ~800 RPMs).
Seems like its got the wrong weights/springs in it - probably springs that are too strong. The advance from atdc to 30 btdc should also be quite smooth.
If its not a show car, one idea would be to go for the new distributor like David Brough and I think Nick...
Quite a bit dearer but it would be new and without points.
http://www.123ignition.nl/
naj
68 280SL
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Thanks naj!
Any idea on cost? What about contact for USA delivery? I can always get general info from their website, but first wanted to see if you have a good source for this unit?
Thanks again!
Bob
bpossel (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL / '97 E320
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Bob,
quote:
Any idea on cost? What about contact for USA delivery? I can always get general info from their website, but first wanted to see if you have a good source for this unit?
This is one of the addresses listed for USA:
Paradise Parts
tel: 440-668-8164
www.mgccars.com
naj
68 280SL
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Bob,
are you sure the whole electrical/electronic system for switching the vacuum is working right? JeffC is the expert on that system, but to me it seems like the vacuum advance is not switching correctly, which is not really a distributor problem.
George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual
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Hi Guys!
Dan, since you jumped in here, please dont miss my quote from an earlier post ..."I recently had my distributor rebuilt. Prior to rebuild the shaft was very wobbly and the timing would jump back & forth by as much as 5 degrees. Now it's nice and tight, no timing jumps, and its clean and looks great!"
Dan, you did a great job! I'm just having an issue with setting the timing right. Recently also had my Speed Relay & Switch repaired by Beckmann Technologies; installed a new 17 degree switch; new 100 degree switch; new vacuum lines; etc...
Just yesterday picked up a new 2-way valve from the dealer, which I will install this weekend and re-test the timing advance....
I hope this then solves the issue.
Thanks again for everyones input to this!
Bob
bpossel (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL / '97 E320
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Just for fun, I ordered this rebuilt distributor. It came today. It looks like the picture. PN on the distributor is 0 231 116 061 (JFU6). It has the oiler plug on the side, like in the picture. Also has a single green wire for the condensor. The vacuum box looks exactly like my current one.
How do I tell if this is a "replacement" for mine? Oddly, the bottom "keyed" end has a bit of play in it like mine did.
Any advice here?
Thanks!
Bob
bpossel (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL / '97 E320
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Bob,
Have a look on the MB CD under Engine Checking and Adjustments/ Engine/ Inspection and adjusting data.
I've not studied this section in detail but it describes the 061 distributor as applicable to the 1970/71 US 280SE/SEL with emission control. Maybe the info will help some.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Hi Jeff,
Per the BBB, it looks like this one (061) would work for my engine, which is a 280SE.
This gets more and more confusing! My current distributor has a part number of 0 231 185 009 JFU6. This is not even listed in the BBB???
:oops: Very confusing...!?
B.
bpossel (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL / '97 E320
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Bob,
It is confusing. My car has the 0231185010. The differences must be very, very minor.
Jeff
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
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Bob,
quote:
My current distributor has a part number of 0 231 185 009
This is the correct distributor for a late 280 SL. It superceded the 0 213 116 051 cast iron bodied dizzy.
quote:
Bob,
It is confusing. My car has the 0231185010. The differences must be very, very minor.
Jeff
The 0 231 185 010 supercedes 0 231 116 060/066/067 cast iron distributors. Don't know what engines they were fitted to.
naj
68 280SL
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Hi Bob just curious what distributor did you end up using?
And how is it working?
Thanks,
Ernie
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Hi Ernie,
I ended up staying with my original distributor. I sent the refurb unit back to Rock Auto. It was a very nice looking rebuild, but it was different than mine. Would have required a different distributor cap. I am sure this would be a nice replacement for 113's that don’t use the newer alum distrib units. :?: I still wonder if it would have worked in my car since I have removed the MB Elec Ignition mod and am running with Pertronix. I am however, still running with all of the other original emissions stuff (Speed Switch & Relay, etc) and I just didn’t feel like experimenting at this time.
I am currently just living with the fact that my current distrib doesn’t seem to advance like it should. I have it setup at 10 degrees BTDC @ 800 idle; 20 degrees BTDC @1500RPM and ~30 degrees BTDC @ 3000. With the Pertronix II, overall car is running well. No backfire, no gurgle/no burble/no sputtering…
Bob
bpossel (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL / '97 E320
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The German Pagoda Forum (www.pagodentreff.de) is currently offering its members an electronic distributor without points, springs, and bearings at a reduced price. It is called "Ignition123" and I was wondering whether anyone here has any experience with this thing. Cees are you familiar with it, since it is a Dutch product?
See: http://brits-n-pieces.com/shop/product_info.php?info=p6787_Verteiler-123ignition-Mercedes-6-Zylinder.html&XTCsid=23e332bd5bd629ef9072790d6d2531ba
http://www.123ignition.nl/id/25.html
Alfred
1966 blue 230SL automatic
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Hey Alfred, I think a few of us have heard of it. I think David B. mentioned it recently. I looked at the write-up -- sounds pretty slick if your going electronic. What's the Pagodentreffe price?
James
63 230SL
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Alfred,
I've looked up all the info I could find on the 123ignition on this website, and there is quite a bit. It tends to be from UK/European owners, given that the Americans seem to lean more towards PerTronix, which is harder to get over here. So I think it maybe just an availability issue.
I've read a lot about 123 on the internet and I think that, given my current distributor woes (see my most recent drama/post), it seems an attractive way forward albeit quite expensive. I have been thinking quite carefully about buying one.
To enable you to compare prices, the best I've seen for a distributor for a 113 is about £180, or about Euros 270 ($350). I think that prices includes tax, so if you purchased from the US, you would save between 17.5-19% depending on whether you purchased in the UK or Germany.
It would be interesting indeed to see what reduced price the German pagodetreff crowd are getting.
James
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quote:
Originally posted by J. Huber
Hey Alfred, I think a few of us have heard of it. I think David B. mentioned it recently. I looked at the write-up -- sounds pretty slick if your going electronic. What's the Pagodentreffe price?
James in Cal, they offered it for Euro285 (plus shipping) instead of Euro315 plus shipping.
James in Hamburg, where did you find the Euro270 price?
Alfred
1966 blue 230SL automatic
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Alfred,
It was GBP177 or 266 euros ($350), but that price was BEFORE tax, not after tax; sorry for the error. I do not know what the shipping charge is but I have sent them an email to ask what it would cost to ship to Europe and the US. I will let you know. If they are fair with their shipping, it should be no more than $25 to ship to the US.
Since you are in the US, you are able to purchase tax free. The vendor I found was Southern Carburetters, which I think is the same place that D Brough got his.
I will let you know what the answer is when I receive their e-mail.
James