Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Electrical and Instruments => Topic started by: fcannas on May 26, 2008, 12:09:11
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Hi Everybody,
Just a quick note to ask for an advise,
I have found this distributor for my 230 sl from 1964, its electrical and they say it solves a lot of problems on settings...and the price its ok.
www.123ignition.nl
look for mercedes 6 cylinder
Any opinions? its good?
Kind Regards
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If you do a search on this forum, you'll find plenty of advice about all kinds of electronic ignition systems.
The 123 ignition is favoured by german owners, and you'll get more infos on the pagodentreff website (if you speak german, that is).
IMHO, this is an intersting product as it replaces both points and advance system (pre-programmed advance curves).It is fairly expensive; still a good option if your old distributor is worn out,but might be overkill if you just want to get rid of points.
There are cheaper solutions such as Crane or Pertonix.
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One good thing about these 123 ignitions is that, while you can delete the points by adding a Pertronix, Crane or other electronic set-up, you are still depending on the accuracy of the basic distributor unit itself which, after 40 or so years, may have issues of its own (play in the bushings, flyweights / springs etc). The 123 module replaces the entire distributor. As for cost, a new Bosch distributor is about $850 (current price at SLS), so you have to figure that into the equation as well.
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I have had one installed in my car since November 2007, as recommended by Van Dijk of http://www.classicsl.com/. They have installed it on most SL's they have under service in the Netherlands as it makes the cars more reliable and easier to service.
In my car it replaced an older Crane installation (which, to be fair, had given no problems either, except for occasional warm starting retries).
Benefits:
- excellent cold and warm starting
- no unsightly additional box and wiring under the hood
- reliable
I'm really pleased with it.
Peter
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I have one and it's fantastic.
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Hi Everybody,
Thank you very much for your comments and kindness.
I will buy one for my car and than I will post my experience.
Kind Regards
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To Paul & Peter (and others who have fitted these distributors),
Did you guys order the MERCEDES-6-R-V or MERCEDES-6-R-V-IE model ?
Rgds
Frank
1965 230SL Black/Auto/RHD
1996 W210 E36 AMG
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I couldn't find pricing on this. I suppose I can call up the local distributor (no pun intended). Anyone here have the info?
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Local distributor for USA is listed as:-
USA
Brooklyn Motoren Werke, Inc.
115 Market Street
P. O. Box 198
WS 53521 Brooklyn
tel: 608 455 7441
fax: 608 455 7442
www.brooklyn300.com
I saw one for sale on Ebay for US$440, will send through the link if you're interested
Rgds
Frank
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quote:
Originally posted by franjo_66
Did you guys order the MERCEDES-6-R-V or MERCEDES-6-R-V-IE model ?
According to the 123 people: "the Mercedes 6-R-V is the correct one, the 123-xxxxxx-IE distributors are for Bosch D-Jetronic, electronic fuel injection system. As you have an mechanical fuel injection system you do not need the electric impulses that D-Jetronic needs."
Peter
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Hi Everybody,
I was reading your comments and on the last made by vanesp, i got confused...
I thought the regular distributor was for carbureuter motors, and the IE for the one with bosch injection...Am I wrong?
Best regards
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http://www.123ignition.nl/id/25.html
Please look at the note refering bosch injection systems....
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I agree with you,vanesp.The difference between the regular and "IE" models is only a matter of electrical connection with the electronic injection system, which ,of course, is no purpose on the 113 mechanical fuel injection.
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So the injection system on my 230 sl from 1964 does not call " jetronic system" !!!! That's it...?
One of the resellers from 123 igniton told me it should be the IE, maybe because it was more expensive :) !!!!
But both of them should work no?
Thanks
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The name "jetronic" doesn't apply to our w113 sl's.
This electronic device (compared to mechanical fuel injection) was introduced with the later w107 series.The "core" of this system is an electronic calculator connected both to the injectors, various sensors for temperature, pressure...and to the ignition system,i.e the distributor.
Therefore,there is no need for such a connection on mechanical f.i.systems, which don't rely on electronics.
The regular (not I.E.)model should be the right one for your 230sl.
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Thank you all for your comments and help they were very useful...
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XcqgLdeRGg
To be fair the Pertronics was run on whatever the old dist. was instead of a nice shiny new one.
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Crazy question here...exactly what does the 123 cost for our cars? No song and dance...just a price.
Andy Wolff said--and this is quite interesting in my opinion--that when he strobed his Crane, his timing was a bit unsteady. Well, in my time, I've timed all kinds of cars, most with either retro electronic ignitions, or conventional (Bosch and Lucas, mostly) and ALWAYS the timing is a bit unsteady--no matter what. The unsteadyness was always worse at idle than at speed, but a bit wobbly nonetheless.
This rock-steady 123 sounds very interesting.
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The 123Ignition cost me $700. Alot of money. The most expensive piece of renovation equiptment I've put on the car since I began restoring it. In reality, I didn't REALLY need it yet, but the Euro keeps going higher. I also wanted an electronic ignition but did not want to disturb my recently refurbished original distributor.
Of possible interest is that while I assumed that the device "123" is
so named to indicate quick and easy, it may in fact indicate its derivation. In speaking with Dan Caron, I learned that MB may have made a very similar distributor for the 123 chassis gas sedans in Europe. Apparently, the US only saw the deisel 123, so this electronic distributor may not be known in this country. I wonder if anyone has any specs on this?
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I don't have a lot of money, but $700 for a smooth running car sounds like a good deal to me. Certainly more bang for the buck than $300 sunvisors or $500 wood sets.
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Jerry,
quote:
Originally posted by seattle_Jerry
I don't have a lot of money, but $700 for a smooth running car sounds like a good deal to me. Certainly more bang for the buck than $300 sunvisors or $500 wood sets.
UK price is around £200.00 or $400.00 without VAT...
$700.00 sounds a bit OTT
naj
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Naj,
$700 is what it cost me including tax, shipping and modification of the unit. The unit needs a minor modification for our cars. This involves cutting or grinding off part of the "base" of the distributor "cup" where it sits on the collar of the distributor housing upon insertion, in order to avoid seating interference by the sleeve of the 5mm hex clamping bolt. While the unit will still function without this mod, the dog will only partially seat in the drive.
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quote:
Originally posted by AWOLFF280SL
Naj,
$700 is what it cost me including tax, shipping and modification of the unit. The unit needs a minor modification for our cars. This involves cutting or grinding off part of the "base" of the distributor "cup" where it sits on the collar of the distributor housing upon insertion, in order to avoid seating interference by the sleeve of the 5mm hex clamping bolt. While the unit will still function without this mod, the dog will only partially seat in the drive.
Thanks for the info.
Nobody else has mentioned having to grind off a bit of the housing...
naj
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So is the grinding being done on the 123 unit or the engine?
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Last Friday I ordered the MERCEDES-6-R-V model from 123ignition together with a Bosh blue coil. It promises to be a great improvement. In a few days it will arrive.
Martijn
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Congratulations!
Please, keep us informed !
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quote:
Originally posted by Martijn
Last Friday I ordered the MERCEDES-6-R-V model from 123ignition together with a Bosh blue coil. It promises to be a great improvement. In a few days it will arrive.
Martijn
Any particular reason for the 'blue' coil?
naj
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Naj,
Not a particular reason for the blue coil, but it was advised by the shop. Do you think another type of coil should be better for the Pagoda?
Martijn
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quote:
Originally posted by Martijn
Naj,
Not a particular reason for the blue coil, but it was advised by the shop. Do you think another type of coil should be better for the Pagoda?
Martijn
Nah, just curiosity :oops:
Don't know enough about coils to make any suggestions...
naj
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This distributor IS from a 6 cylinder euro 123 gas car. I found one in a wrecked 280T station wagon that I have here. This is a typical hall effect type with nothing special about it and it's a factory part.
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quote:
Originally posted by Benz Dr.
This distributor IS from a 6 cylinder euro 123 gas car. I found one in a wrecked 280T station wagon that I have here. This is a typical hall effect type with nothing special about it and it's a factory part.
It looks new and chrome plated. Are you indicating that the 123 distributor isn't really their product, but a Bosch OEM factory product that they have modified (with the Hall effect innards)and are selling as their own?
If so, it still seems to be a bargain...a new Bosch distributor with an electronic upgrade (er, modification for those that believe in points and condensers) in it for $700 sounds pretty good. Last I checked when I was looking for a distributor, new, for our 6-cylinder model (or its replacement) it was over $1,200.
I paid about $200 for a used -050; another $125 for a rebuild, and another $100 for a Pertronix. So for a used, rebuild, Hall effect 050 (if you can find a good 050) was about $425 2 years ago. $700 today for a new equivalent? Sounds good, eh?
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quote:
Originally posted by Benz Dr.
This distributor IS from a 6 cylinder euro 123 gas car. I found one in a wrecked 280T station wagon that I have here. This is a typical hall effect type with nothing special about it and it's a factory part.
Hey, Doc,
What engine have you got in that 280T?
Here's one from a M110 twin cam 2.8E.
Its humongous, but its beauty is that it can do both vac advance and vac retard!
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/naj/2008626173547_M110_025R.jpg)
naj
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Maybe it's from a 250T I don't remember but it's the same size as a 051 or other types we use. This is a true hall effect unit but I think you need the ECU to make it work. The car has a coil like any other but it requires all the parts to work and has cable with a 3 pin connector.
Engine variant is the M 123. A strange engine with single row chain, 5 main bearings and 86mm pistons along with a 4 barrel carb like a M110 twin cam.
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This week I replaced my original Bosch 0231.116.051 distributor for an 123ignition MERCEDES-6-R-V electronic ignition.
I am a complete novice in this area. For me it was the first time ever I tinkered with this part. So I hesitated a lot whether or not I should do this myself. But it turns out to be an easy job.
I started with replacing the coil for a 'blue' coil. This 'blue' coil was recommended by the shop because this one is suitable for electronic ignitions. The type number is Bosch 0.221.119.027 K 12V.
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My original coil is 59 mm in diameter. The new blue coil is 55 mm in diameter. I filled the gap between the bracket and the coil with a rubber strip with a thickness of 2 mm. I used a spare rubber strip which is normally used on both sides of the radiator.
123ignition recommends to disconnect the ballast resistor, which I did.
After that I had to turn the crankshaft to the static timing point on the scale. It was not easy to sneak in a 27 mm socket in the engine pulley because there is so little space between the radiator and the pulley. I used a cardan or knee (is this the right word in English?) as an extension on the 1/2" ratchet. I had to remove al the spark plugs in order to get the crankshaft in motion. But it worked.
Then I removed the old distributor and carefully mounted the 123ignition. From then it is straight forward. Connect the red wire to the coil and turn on the ignition. Slowly turn the housing of the 123ignition untill the green LED lights up through one of the holes in the disc. Then you can finish the remaining wiring.
AWOLFF280SL mentioned that you need to grind off some material of the housing. It is correct that you can't fully insert the 123ignition in the base. This is because it gets stuck on the clamping bolt. In my opinion the solution is simple: just turn over the plate and no grinding is needed. See the difference in the pictures.
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In the second picture the clamping bolt is situated at the bottom. In this way it does not interfere with the 123ignition housing. The disadvantage of this solution is that the Allen bolt is now on the opposite side. That is a little more difficult if you want to tighten or loosen the bolt. But one of the intentions is to decrease maintainance, so I probably don't need to loosen this bolt for a long time.
When I turned the ignition key for the first time after installing the 123ignition it started immediately. I can't tell you how happy I was!! Unbelievable that I did this myself.
The engine runs very smoothly now. Not that it didn't before that, but it feels like it has a bit more power. And there is also no more hesitation between 2000 and 3000 rpm. I am very happy with it.
After a little test drive, I fine tuned the ignition with a stroboscope.
My colleague restored a Citroën 2CV two years ago. He also replaced his distributor for an 123ignition. He is very happy with it and never had any problems with it.
I needed some extra parts that were not included in the kit. Two connectors to connect the two wires to the coil. A short piece of vacuum hose with an inside diameter of 4 mm to connect the existing vacuum hose to the 123ignition.
The only problem left is that the engine idles at very low rpm, between 500 and 600. This has nothing to do with the 123ignition, because it did this before. Can anyone tell me how to adjust the idle speed to a higher rpm? I know that there must be a little adjustment screw, but I don't know where.
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Martijn,
Congratulations, and what a top tip on the install to avoid grinding things. I agree fully with your logic about the aim being to reduce maint. Makes sense.
As for your idle issue, first I would say that if the car idles happily at 600 rpm (doesn't cough or splutter) and your plugs are the correct colour then its fine. My car sits very happily at 600rpm. If, however, you need to raise the idle then you should start off by reading Joe Alexander's excellent linkage tour. If you haven't already done so, this will allow you to examine your linkage to ensure the mix is right. See where that takes you. There are a number of parts of the linkage that get incorrectly adjusted, such as the venturi valve stop screw. By 'taking the tour' you should find out if there are any errors.
That aside, I am also thinking of putting in the 123 ignition. When you set your timing with a strobe, can you tell me if you noticed whether your timing was a great deal steadier under the light than before?
James
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James, thanks for the tip about the linkage tour. When I received that issue of the Pagoda Notes I thought this article was too difficult for me. So I didn't fully read it. But I will study this first now.
When my engine idles at 500 or 600 rpm it doesn't run very smoothly. But my main problem is that when I drive my car and have to shift back, before a turn for example, then the rpm drops too much and the engine stalls. I think if could rise the idle speed this problem is solved. But as I said, I had this problem before I installed the 123ignition.
Regarding the strobe, this was the first time I used such a device. I borrowed it from a colleague. I have no reference of timing it with my original distributor, but the timing was indeed steady. Just like in the demo movie on YouTube. Hope this answers your question.
Martijn
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Martijn,
The linkage tour is definately not difficult and you will learn a great deal about how the car works from taking it. Just note, though, that there is a bit of an art to getting the linkage correct. My car used to hunt when idling and I had to do the linkage 3 times to get it right. (I've now screwed it all up again by changing the ball sockets). There's lots to check but it's very rewarding. Check also dwell and timing, your plugs, air filter and all that other easy stuff. There's a ton of info on the site about what to look at. None of it is difficult. (Actually, I suppose you don't need to check dwell with an electronic ignition do you???)
Anyway, be patient and don't be too surprised if you have to do it a few times. Finally, my car is a manual so I can see why with an auto your low idle might be more of a problem for you.
JH
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James,
Perhaps "difficult" was not the right word. At the time the linkage tour was not applicable for me, so I wasn't much interested. But now I get more involved in the technology of the car and I'm learning more and more.
With the 123ignition you don't need to set the dwell. You only have to select a curve once with a little switch. I chose curve number 8. I consulted the shop about this and they were very helpful (www.leenapk.nl). You could also see this in the manual of the 123ignition.
My car is a manual too (4-speed). Sometimes when I step on the clutch too abruptly, the engine stalls because the rpm drops too much. I am very much interested in the linkage tour now :)
Martijn
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Martijn, did you have to change all the wiring as well regarding your new electronic ignitor, or did you keep the old ignition harness (spark plug wires)?
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Hi Philippe,
Yes and no. I didn't replace the spark plug wires this time. But 4 months ago they were replaced by my mechanic. So they are almost new. He replaced them because my engine hesitated between 2000 and 3000 rpm. He also replaced the spark plugs and the points.
I would say that if you mistrust your wires, this would be a good time to replace them if you are installing an electronic ignition. Just to be sure you get the maximum out of your ignition. In my case the complete electric chain from coil to spark plugs is new.
Martijn
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quote:
I started with replacing the coil for a 'blue' coil. This 'blue' coil was recommended by the shop because this one is suitable for electronic ignitions.
I am sorry to say, but the 'blue' coil is absolutely not suited for use with the 123. The 123 needs a primary resistance of at least 1 ohm, the 'blue' coil has a primary resistance of 0,4 ohm.
Now the 123 will not malfunction immediately, but you need to replace the coil.
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AFAIK raising the idle is as simple as turning the slotted screw at the back of the fuel injection pump inwards a few clicks (engine off!), and, using a CO meter, adjusting the air screw on the intake manifold to set the correct air/fuel mixture. So you're adding fuel + air this way, in the right mix (CO value as per the book) and, presto, higher idle RPM.
Simple first check not involving the fuel injection pump would be to tinker with the air screw on the intake manifold (turning it slowly to see whether the idle goes up or down, while checking the CO value before-and-after).
On the ignition wires - checking resistance with an Ohm meter will tell you whether the wires and/or caps are bad. I do this as part of the annual service since I once had a wire go bad on me that was only a year or two old.
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Ziggy,
According the 123ignition manual the coil resistance should be more than 1 Ohm. I have checked it this afternoon with a digital multimeter. The result was 3.4 Ohm, so it should be fine. This coil in combination with the 123ignition was recommended to me by a specialist.
I disconnected the ballast resistor because that would add an extra 1.4 Ohm.
Martijn
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Cees,
Unfortunately I don’t have CO-meter at my disposal. But I will read the linkage tour this weekend carefully. Thanks for the tip, though.
During lunch today, I made a quick test drive with a colleague. He was impressed how smooth the engine is running. Always nice to see someone’s reaction :)
Martijn
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quote:
According the 123ignition manual the coil resistance should be more than 1 Ohm. I have checked it this afternoon with a digital multimeter. The result was 3.4 Ohm, so it should be fine. This coil in combination with the 123ignition was recommended to me by a specialist.
I disconnected the ballast resistor because that would add an extra 1.4 Ohm.
I doubt your specialist knows what he is talking about. I know for a fact that 123 does NOT endorse the use of any other coil than the original. Your original coil already was suited for the 123. The original blue coil has a resistance of about 0,4 ohm. I do not know what coil you have now, but if you want a better spark, you certainly do not need a coil with a 3,4 ohm resistance, then you need the red coil. It gives something like a 27K volt spark and has 1,8 ohm resistance. There are also some other options for coils in Holland.
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After reading up on the 123 unit, I'm going to order one (at 300 euros it's not a big investment). I checked my ignition timing today with the timing light and it does not appear to be as stable as it should be. Like Martijn has done, I will report the results here.
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I have had installed a 123 ignition last october. The difference was significant. Better starting, smoother running engine, more powerfull. Cees, if you want to experience, be my guest.
Gerard Wuisman
1971 280sl
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But if you already have transistorized ignition or other electronic ignition you probably won't notice the difference.
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Thanks for the offer Gerard - I picked up a 123 unit at Van Dijk's this afternoon (they confirmed that they install a LOT of these on Pagodas they service) and I could not resist installing it this evening. It was just like Martijn described, about a one hour process. The car started right up, and with the static timing procedure it was already timed almost exactly according to spec, as verified by timing (stroboscopic) light. With-and-without-vacuum-attached readings were as per the book.
Ziggy - I had installed an electronic ignition module to work with the standard (rebuilt by me a few years ago) 051 Bosch distributor. The main difference with the 123 though is the almost complete absence of moving parts inside the unit. No flyweights, springs etc. So you can have a high-tech electronic ignition installed in your car, it is still dependent on the accuracy of the mechanical distributor which can have play in the bearings and all kind of other issues. So this is really one step beyond 'just' adding an electronic ignition to your conventional distributor. And at a cost of around EUR 300, it's a relatively small investment in knowing you have a brand-new complete ignition, no points, dwell or (consistency of) advance issues to worry about.
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quote:
Originally posted by Martijn
Cees,
Unfortunately I don’t have CO-meter at my disposal. But I will read the linkage tour this weekend carefully. Thanks for the tip, though.Martijn
Hello Martijn - the CO value at idle (FI pump adjustment using the slotted screw, in combination with the large screw on the intake manifold) is important to get right. Not really difficult but you do need a CO analyser; if you want to use mine (a British Gunson unit) just let me know, I am in Amsterdam so not too far from where you are located.
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I know everything of the Mercedes 123 as I was involved in its development...
Can you actually have a reliable reading with that Gunson thing? I thought it had to warm up first for like 10 minutes, and then it takes something like 90 seconds to read any adjustment?
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quote:
Originally posted by Ziggy
I know everything of the Mercedes 123 as I was involved in its development... Can you actually have a reliable reading with that Gunson thing? I thought it had to warm up first for like 10 minutes, and then it takes something like 90 seconds to read any adjustment?
Good to hear you know all about it. I left my red coil in place given your earlier comments.
Yes, the Gunson apparatus gives realiable readings or at least I have confidence that it does. It does take time to calibrate, 8 minutes I think to be exact, which is negligible considering the thousands of miles and time associated with that distance that I spend in the car between tune-ups.
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Gerard/Cees,
I am sorely tempted. Did you have to do the grinding thing previously mentioned or did you manage to install it without going down that route?
Could you also confirm whether I would be able to use the same model you purchased for your 280 with my 230? Could you please post the model number if you have it? I think, because I'm in Germany, I would end up purchasing it direct as I don't know Van Dijks (but if you have a phone number for them I could ask if they'll ship).
Sorry to bombard you with questions,
James
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James, there is no grinding required to install the 123. You need the same model as Cees, the 123-6 cylinder, the other 2 models being the 123-4 cylinder and the 123-6-old which is for models from the 50's. (don't have specific information about the last one as it was made afer my time)
In Germany you could order it from www.dbdepot.de , among others.
Cees, I didn't mean the initial calibrating (professional CO meters also do that, just for a minute) but how long does it take the Gunson to detect a change in the CO when operating? Professional meters also have a delay of a couple of seconds, but I think the Gunson needed something like 1 1/2 minute.
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Ziggy,
I am confused (a not uncommon feeling) because if you go to page 2 of this thread you will see this entry, together with another entry that has a diagram of a collar that I thought needed to be removed.
Is this not so?
quote:
Naj,
$700 is what it cost me including tax, shipping and modification of the unit. The unit needs a minor modification for our cars. This involves cutting or grinding off part of the "base" of the distributor "cup" where it sits on the collar of the distributor housing upon insertion, in order to avoid seating interference by the sleeve of the 5mm hex clamping bolt. While the unit will still function without this mod, the dog will only partially seat in the drive.
James
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Cees,
Happy driving with the 123!
James,
I bought the system at http://www.oldtimer-motoren.de/ . They have a lot of experience in building it in. In my case some calibration of the gas rods, airscrew ect. was necessary to get the optimal result.
Gerard
1971 280sl
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This evening I replaced my new blue coil for my old black coil again. Like Ziggy advised me, the original black coil should be better. I measured the resistance of the black coil: 2.4 ohm. The blue coil is 3.4 ohm.
The cold start of the engine seemed to be a bit better, but I didn't have the time yet to test it much. Perhaps I will buy a red coil because of your positive experiences.
After that I examined the linkage like James suggested. It turns out that some ball joints are worn. Some rods have about 1 mm play in the joints! I have to order new ones before adjusting the linkage, I think.
Cees, thank you for your offer for using your CO analyser. I would like to take up your offer. Besides that, it would be nice to meet a fellow member. And meeting the president makes it even more special :) But I think it's wise that I should fix the ball joints first.
Martijn
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quote:
Originally posted by jameshoward
Gerard/Cees,
I am sorely tempted. Did you have to do the grinding thing previously mentioned or did you manage to install it without going down that route?
Could you also confirm whether I would be able to use the same model you purchased for your 280 with my 230? Could you please post the model number if you have it? I think, because I'm in Germany, I would end up purchasing it direct as I don't know Van Dijks (but if you have a phone number for them I could ask if they'll ship).
Sorry to bombard you with questions,
James
I did not have to grind anything down or turn a collar upside down, because on my engine the clamp is integrated into the housing that bolts onto the engine block and is flat on top. In other words, the 123 unit dropped right in without any modifications. The model number is 123\MERCEDES-6-R-V. It's the same unit for 230, 250 and 280 SL's.
Here is an image of what it looks like at another seller in The Netherlands (EUR 300): http://www.leenapk.nl/product_details.php?category_id=54&item_id=4
Here are the contact details for Van Dijk:
Van Dijk, the Classic Mercedes "SL" specialist
Kruisbaak 24
2165 AJ Lisserbroek
The Netherlands, Europe
Tel.: 0031-252-423713
Fax.: 0031-252-422758
E-mail: vandijk@classicsl.com
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Update: now having driven a couple hundred miles with the 123, I can say it works very well. When starting in the morning, the engine is quieter. When warm, the engine seems to run smoother. I am measuring fuel consumption and so far it's been less than average (although that is also dependent on the kind of driving - long or shorter trips, speeds driven etc) so I will have to measure over a longer period of time for that aspect.
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Hey all. If I am following this all correctly, the 123 is different from Crane and Pertronix in that it is the entire dizzie versus just innerds. But similar in that its electronic versus points. Is that right?
And on install, does it just drop into the existing Dist. housing -- then you set the timing? (having dealt with the grinding or flipping of collar, etc.) Would that mean you could just lift off the old distributor (in my case with points) and keep it as a back-up -- again just dropping it into place? Or am I missing something?
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quote:
Originally posted by J. Huber
Hey all. If I am following this all correctly, the 123 is different from Crane and Pertronix in that it is the entire dizzie versus just innerds. But similar in that its electronic versus points. Is that right?
And on install, does it just drop into the existing Dist. housing -- then you set the timing? (having dealt with the grinding or flipping of collar, etc.) Would that mean you could just lift off the old distributor (in my case with points) and keep it as a back-up -- again just dropping it into place? Or am I missing something?
Yes, the 123 is a complete ditributor that has minimal mechanical parts: no points, and no flyweights/springs etc for the advance/retard adjustments, all that is electronic. You can set the advance curves by adjusting a microswitch.
In my case, since I don't have a separate clamp to hold the distributor in, it dropped straight in; static timing was done by rotating the distributor until a small green led inside the distributor came on. Then fine-tuned with a strobe light (but the static procedure put it within a few degrees of where it needed to be).
I kept the original coil and bypassed the ballast resistor.
The timing is very stable, as shown by the strobe light revving the engine to different RPMs.
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quote:
Originally posted by J. Huber
And on install, does it just drop into the existing Dist. housing...
James, it is just that simple - all you have to do is drop her in! That is after you flipped the collar (a more elegant solution). With our early 230SL's, we would have to flip the collar, since it is different from the setup used in the later 280SL's as Cees mentioned.
I am also following this thread with interest. Even though I am happy with my Pertronix setup (for now), the bug has bitten. Can always use the old setup as a backup.
Now to find a distributor for this 123 ignition in SA...
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That is what I figured, I will carry the original distributor with electronic addition I was using as the back-up.
I received the invoice from Van Dijk and they charged EUR 380 for the unit, which this other company sells for EUR 299 - so no offense to Van Dijk, but if I were you Jacco, I would email this company and order it through them. The unit comes complete packaged so there's nothing that a reseller adds, just the markup for their trouble. This website has English language as well:
http://www.leenapk.nl/product_details.php?category_id=54&item_id=4
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On pricing, and given the fact that the Euro is so expensive at present, I've found it in the UK for GBP 200 less tax. Some people might find it cheaper to purchase from there. The company is called Southern Carbueretters and is listed as a distributor (relevant pun) on the 123 site.
JH
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Has anyone in the US bought one of these units? Where did you get it?
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I put the 123 in a few months ago. Got it from:
Brooklyn Motoren Werke, Inc.
115 Market Street
P. O. Box 198
WS 53521 Brooklyn
tel: 608 455 7441
I'm happy with it.
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So bear with me here -- when you all mention a more stable timing -- you mean among other things that when the strobe light is on 30 BTD @ 3000 it is steady not bouncing a bit? And if so, does that equate to better performance? Reason I ask is: I have had no trouble with points -- but I do notice that when I set the timing, there is some bounciness.
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Hello James - yes, a more steady timing at higher RPMs than with the old distributor. I've driven some more and it does seem smoother and more powerful. Difficult to really be sure without good before-and-after measurements on accelleration etc but I do believe that having a brand-new, high-tech distributor that uses electronics rather than mechanicals eliminates possible causes of sub-optimal performance, especially on our old cars.
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So how did you guys do the fine tuning?
Step 5 from the 123-ignition manual says: Disconnect the vacuum-tube whilst finetuning.
The Haynes manual says to keep vacuum connected.
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James,
I recently updated the tech manual section having to do with a points ignition system.
"As the engine spins the Distributor shaft, there is a 6 lobed cam mounted to the distributor shaft. Just off of the cam is a single set of breaker points that open and close by the distributor cam's contact with the point set(s). When the points are closed, they allow the coil to energize and store energy. When the points open, the stored energy is released as high voltage energy through the rotor, cap, the high tension wires to the spark plugs. How long the points stay closed is the 'dwell' or dwell angle.
At ordinary engine operating speeds, the points open and close a couple of hundred times per second, the exact number depending on the number of cylinders and the engine RPM. The points need to be closed for a appreciable time in order to build up the maximum magnetic flux in the ignition coil core.
The period of points closure is specified by the ignition system designer and is typically expressed as degrees of distributor rotation. In a six cylinder engine, the angle between each ignition cam lobe is 60° and the period of points closure or "DWELL" is usually a 30° to 35°.
Dwell is adjusted by setting the points gap to a specified distance at maximum opening. A narrower gap gives more dwell and a wider gap gives less. Taking it to extremes, excessive dwell means that the points close too soon after opening, cutting off the magnetic field collapse in the coil before it delivers all its energy. Too little dwell gives the magnetic flux insufficient time to build up to the maximum.
Both conditions give a weak spark which gets even weaker as the engine RPM rises and produces misfiring at normal operating speeds. The dwell, as well as spark plug gap, do have an effect on ignition timing.
The later the points open, the later the spark comes and retards the timing. The earlier the points open the sooner the spark comes and advances the timing. That is why TIMING IS THE LAST THING TO BE SET IN A TUNE UP. "
When you adjust timing with a strobe light you are fine tuning any advance or retard variance from the dwell angle. As the dwell angle changes (points wearing) timing also varies. You are seeing the the results of a failing distributor with the varying timing of your car at 3000 rpms.