Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: paulr on June 14, 2008, 13:43:07
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today has been almost perfect, save for me finding a beautiful French lover...I have an ongoing project in the SW of France and if I find time I book a ferry and come over. I have a free week so here I am. En route, I met some friends for lunch on their way to Le Mans (24hr race) which was nice and then set off through the most wonderful French countryside along blemishless roads and often under the canopy of tall plane trees with the sunlight dappling the road ahead. Driving through France is as good as it gets for me and I attach a snap for you to share.
The 3.69 (?) axle that I now have has made this journey far less frantic than it has been in the past and for anyone dithering, don't delay, it's a fantastic modification.
Today, I think my car is perfect.
a beintot.
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) sl 0047.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/paulr/2008614153334_sl%200047.jpg)
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Good for you Paul. Today my Pagoda experience consisted of a quick top-down trip to the carwash so that she'll be bright and shiny for our coffee-table book photoshoot tomorrow; Peter van Es, myself and a friend of ours, setting off at 8 AM for the photo-friendly light.
Beautiful French lover eh? Belgian would probably do as well ...
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Lucky bugger. We're about 4 days from heading off to Bordeauz in the car, but 2 wrong water pumps later and things are starting to get a little tight. (If only I'd bothered to look more closely at the SLS webpage...) Do you ever take the autoroute, or do you stick to the A roads, which pretty much parallel anyway I think?
Not sure about the Belgians though, Cees...Good luck with the weather tomorrow morning.
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quote:
Originally posted by cees klumper
...Today my Pagoda experience consisted of a quick top-down trip to the carwash so ...
Hmmmm. Call me crazy, but with the rust problems in Pagodas I just don't see the top-down trip through the car wash as being a good idea. I think you should re-think this... :)
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I take the A roads most of the time but if I'm late or just in a hurry I will do the motorway. I often ask my sat nav ( gps ) to find an alternate route via somewhere out of my way as I am rarely in too much of a rush. I hope you get yourself sorted out and enjoy your trip. Bordeaux is so pretty.
quote:
Originally posted by jameshoward
Lucky bugger. We're about 4 days from heading off to Bordeauz in the car, but 2 wrong water pumps later and things are starting to get a little tight. (If only I'd bothered to look more closely at the SLS webpage...) Do you ever take the autoroute, or do you stick to the A roads, which pretty much parallel anyway I think?
Not sure about the Belgians though, Cees...Good luck with the weather tomorrow morning.
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Aaaah! I love these little french roads with trees...a rarity nowadays, as many of them have disappeared ,victims of security regulations in the 70's :(
For those driving to Bordeaux, don't forget to visit Perigord, one of the best trips I ever made with my Pagoda 8)
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Paul, what did Roger Edwards charge for the axle switch. Mine is going in to them next week for front crank seal and a few other bits, but as they have it for the whole week I may ask them if they have a 3.69 ratio diff.
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they charged a £1000 roughly. I'm always having bits done when it's in and I don't really ask for a breakdown, but I think that's the figure including rebuilt axle.
good luck.
quote:
Originally posted by rob walker
Paul, what did Roger Edwards charge for the axle switch. Mine is going in to them next week for front crank seal and a few other bits, but as they have it for the whole week I may ask them if they have a 3.69 ratio diff.
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Not THROUGH but TO the carwash! I put the top up for the job ... came out really nice too.
quote:
Originally posted by scoot
quote:
Originally posted by cees klumper
...Today my Pagoda experience consisted of a quick top-down trip to the carwash so ...
Hmmmm. Call me crazy, but with the rust problems in Pagodas I just don't see the top-down trip through the car wash as being a good idea. I think you should re-think this... :)
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I installed a 3.27 axle many years ago. My car has an automatic and the axle ratio makes such a big improvement. The car is a real pleasure to drive now on the freeways and in town as well. It's much more quiet but still has all the get-up and go. I'll never understand why Mercedes originally installed the 4.08 ratio. It would turn almost 4000 RPM on the freeway before and it felt as if I needed to shift up. Now, it turns a little over 3000 RPM and I'm cruising! My E320 is even better, it feels like it has more power, even though the car weighs 800 lbs more and cruises at 2800 RPM. It has an even lower rear axle ratio and the same engine. This confirms to me that I did the right thing even though I destroyed the "originality" of my car.
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Paul spoke to RE, they dont have an axle at present but can locate one given a few weeks notice, but GBP 1,000 for the rebuilt axle and GBP 480 for fitment....[:0], may have to rethink that.
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quote:
Originally posted by rob walker
Paul spoke to RE, they dont have an axle at present but can locate one given a few weeks notice, but GBP 1,000 for the rebuilt axle and GBP 480 for fitment....[:0], may have to rethink that.
Rob,
here's one you could buy!
http://cgi.ebay.de/Hinterachse-mit-Scheibenbremse-1-3-69-fuer-Pagode-W108_W0QQitemZ120274035317QQihZ002QQcategoryZ42479QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting
naj
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Paul, did you only consider the 3.69 axle and not the 3.46. I am just getting RE to source an axle for me for fitment and just having reread some of the posts I wonder whether I should consider the 3.46 or does this reduce the acceleration too much?
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Hi Rob,
I fitted a 3.46 axle to my car recently and whilst it is a little more sluggish off the line than the original 3.92 I just press the throttle a bit harder and all is fine. I'm sure drag starts would be slower but I'm not bothered about that, once underway I don't notice any difference in acceleration I just wallow in the piece and quiet of lower revs.
The advantage of the 3.69 is that it is a standard 113 item with no breather issues however when going to the trouble of making a change I think the 3.46 is best.
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David, what revs is your car doing at 70mph...Paul can you advise the same for yours.
Naj you probably have a table that shows or can calculate this ;D?
Any other forum members advice on this would be great, I dont want to make a mistake as its a pretty expensive conversion.
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Stopped being lazy and done some searching.
From what I can find the following would be expected rpms at 70 mph
3.92 @ 70 mph = 4000 rpm
3.69 @ 70 mph = 3770 rpm
3.46 @ 70 mph = 3400rpm
Does that look correct? If so I think I will go for the 3.46!
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With standard wheels and tyres the calculated RPM's at 70mph are as follows:-
3.92 3,600
3.69 3,400
3.46 3,175
On this basis the car is theoretically capable of 126mph at 6,500rpm with the standard 3.92 axle. This speed would be attainable at 5,700rpm with a 3.46 axle.
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With standard wheels and tyres the calculated RPM's at 70mph are as follows:-
3.92 3,600
3.69 3,400
3.46 3,175
On this basis the car is theoretically capable of 126mph at 6,500rpm with the standard 3.92 axle. This speed would be attainable at 5,700rpm with a 3.46 axle.
Maybe I'm full of it, but it seems like an awful lot of work and expense for a 2-400 rpm drop. Certainly the cars were designed to run at these rpms without issue, so it's really a subjective benefit, and to me, rather small. If you're going on a big, long haul, why not just put larger diameter tires on some wheels for the rear to accomplish the same thing with less pain and $$$? Flame away!
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It really is surprising what a difference even a few 100 rpm makes and the 400+ drop to a 3.46 axle is really astounding in terms of noise and overall smoothness. In addition you also get the bonus of about 15% better fuel mileage.
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Having also done a 3.46 axle change from a 4.08 in a manual car, it really is a major change in noise, vibration for the better and whilst expensive to change over, I feel it has been worth every penny/cent. I was looking for a 5 speed gearbox, and this has been a much much cheaper interim outcome. I notice that my speedo reads 52 mph when I am doing 60 mph by the GPS and about 2800rpm.
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Maybe I'm full of it, but it seems like an awful lot of work and expense for a 2-400 rpm drop. Certainly the cars were designed to run at these rpms without issue, so it's really a subjective benefit, and to me, rather small. If you're going on a big, long haul, why not just put larger diameter tires on some wheels for the rear to accomplish the same thing with less pain and $$$? Flame away!
John, the work will be done by Roger Edwards who has done many of these so no real effort on my part except getting the car to him. Yes the costs is quite high, but so is the cost of a nice set of 15" Bundt's and tyres to replace my current 14" which are all as new. I tend to do quite a lot of motorway (highway) driving to and from events and the car will soon be travelling between our houses in the UK and Spain so having this reduced engine speed will be a great benefit. It has always been the one part of the car that has dissapointed me so I feel its worth the effort and costs. Also as a $ earner, now having this work done in UK Sterling makes it cheaper with the $ strength ;D ;D ;D
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Having also done a 3.46 axle change from a 4.08 in a manual car, it really is a major change in noise, vibration for the better and whilst expensive to change over, I feel it has been worth every penny/cent. I was looking for a 5 speed gearbox, and this has been a much much cheaper interim outcome. I notice that my speedo reads 52 mph when I am doing 60 mph by the GPS and about 2800rpm.
My car was doing about 68 mph on the GPS at 4,000, so with your calculations 70 mph will be 3266 rpm.
That sounds great have instructed RE to start a search for a 3.46.
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With standard wheels and tyres the calculated RPM's at 70mph are as follows:-
3.92 3,600
3.69 3,400
3.46 3,175
On this basis the car is theoretically capable of 126mph at 6,500rpm with the standard 3.92 axle. This speed would be attainable at 5,700rpm with a 3.46 axle.
David is that 70 on the speedo or on GPS?
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My figures are calculated from wheel diameter rpm and axle ratio and are close to my instrument readings, I've had my speedo recalibrated so it reads spot on. to the GPS.
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My figures are calculated from wheel diameter rpm and axle ratio and are close to my instrument readings, I've had my speedo recalibrated so it reads spot on. to the GPS.
Wow David up early on the board ;)
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Well having drawn a blank in the UK trying to find a 3.69 axle through Roger Edwards and Mercman, I am back to square 1. I am a little worried about going down to the 3.46 route although Roger Edwards has one in stock.
Hmm! what to do :-\
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Get the 46
See above re discussion on "all that work for not a lot of gain"... same work for the 3.46, but more gain. My car is not appreciably more sluggish but is quieter on the motorway and feels more composed at 80 simply as the engine revs are lower
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Get the 46
See above re discussion on "all that work for not a lot of gain"... same work for the 3.46, but more gain. My car is not appreciably more sluggish but is quieter on the motorway and feels more composed at 80 simply as the engine revs are lower
Thanks James for the comfort, when did you get your's installed?
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picked it up just before Christmas - Derrick Wells sold me the axle and installed it.
Very happy with it indeed
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Seems you are Americanizing these cars...
In the book I was urged to read by Brock Yates about the decline of the US auto industry, he makes some comments about RPM. In it, basically, American engines lumber along with their "low-revving" engines, while the (more desirable?) European cars have "high-revving" engines. He even goes on to say that "Mercedes engines are designed to cruise all day at 6,000 RPM!"
Just thought I'd share... ;)
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How about what happens 0-60? Thats where I have fun. Like mdsalami stated..,.you are americanizing the car. I kind of got used to that high rpm sound.
abe
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picked it up just before Christmas - Derrick Wells sold me the axle and installed it.
Very happy with it indeed
Did he also recalibrate your speedo to match the axle ratio?
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Seems you are Americanizing these cars...
In the book I was urged to read by Brock Yates about the decline of the US auto industry, he makes some comments about RPM. In it, basically, American engines lumber along with their "low-revving" engines, while the (more desirable?) European cars have "high-revving" engines. He even goes on to say that "Mercedes engines are designed to cruise all day at 6,000 RPM!"
Just thought I'd share... ;)
Michael, good point, but as my ear drums are older than the car not sure they can cope with the noise ;D Actually from next year the car is going to be cruising up and down between Spain and the UK at least once per year and the road networks have changed in the UK since this car was designed and most of our driving seems to be motorways so to ease the stress on the car? this seems to be a good option.
However to challenge your point why then is the US car designed to rev higher than the UK/Europe car? : ;D
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How about what happens 0-60? Thats where I have fun. Like mdsalami stated..,.you are americanizing the car. I kind of got used to that high rpm sound.
abe
My understadning is that yes it is slower off the line but once moving there is little difference although you may have to change down manually a little more, but with the auto box that is no hardship :)
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Did he also recalibrate your speedo to match the axle ratio?
Not yet
Will get Speedy Cables in South Wales to do that - once I can get the sat nav on in the car to double check everything
Car is not noticeably slower off the line. It really isn't.
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However to challenge your point why then is the US car designed to rev higher than the UK/Europe car? : ;D
US: 55 mph speed limit and an obsession with times for a quarter mile with standing start!
Germany: no speed limit, and what's a quarter mile?
Peter
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My comment from Brock Yates (he also went on to say in the book about how Mercedes cars are basically devoid of chrome and that's one reason why they are better than American cars) was true from his point of view, but a joke from me. And regarding that parenthetical comment here, you 230SL owners who love the chrome would laugh if you saw just how many times he blames chrome for being an American car problem.
I mentioned a long time ago, but it bears repeating. I have as stock a 280SL as you can get; about 2 years ago I had the pleasure of driving Tom Sargeant's 280SL modified with rear axle and a Gernold-installed kickdown switch. With the factory windscreen up, and the lower RPM, you could (and we did) hold a quiet conversation at 60 MPH 100 KPH while on a highway; had a long-haired beauty been my passenger as opposed to Tom, her hair wouldn't even have been mussed. Modern improvement on an older gal to suit our current driving needs.
Whatever performance "off the line" suffering their was because of the axle change was not relevant. The car was wonderful.
As for German speed limits, or lack thereof, it's been at least 10 years since I've driven there...but my last recollections on the E35 around Darmstadt/Heidelberg/Mannheim is that between perpetual construction and congestion, there was a practical if not posted speed limit. Perhaps late at night one could cruise at 140-200KPH but other times were difficult if not impossible. I can only imagine how it is today. Then there is the E5...often on this road (call it bad luck) I've encountered a "stau" which quickly backs up traffic for many, many KM's rendering traffic movement impossible; once in the middle of the night, throwing me off in Bavaria w/o any direction home...
Give me I-90 in Montana anyday! ;D
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Seems you are Americanizing these cars...
In the book I was urged to read by Brock Yates about the decline of the US auto industry, he makes some comments about RPM. In it, basically, American engines lumber along with their "low-revving" engines, while the (more desirable?) European cars have "high-revving" engines. He even goes on to say that "Mercedes engines are designed to cruise all day at 6,000 RPM!"
Just thought I'd share... ;)
I agree with this. The assumption would have to be that the Germans did not drive their cars fast for long periods of time in the 50's and 60's. Obviously they did, and with style and confidence in Mercedes. Low revs, less pollution, more gas economy, more insulation from the driving experience are more recent phenomena.
Case in point, the previous owner of my car drove it flat out floored for long periods several times. (Begin at reply #22 http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=5816.15 )
Better ones time and dollars should be spent keeping these cars in top running condition, as they were engineered, and enjoy the vintage experience. If you want the contemporary experience with the reliability, smoothness, quiet, low revs, torque, perfect climate control, precise steering, warm seats, concert stereo, why not just buy a new BMW or MB? It's not what our cars are or were. For me, the fun is in how it was.
That said, everyone and anyone should do whatever they want to get the most enjoyment they personally can out of these cars.
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What is the relationship between RPM and expected engine life? Engine life is approximately equal to the inverse of RPM or RPM squared or RPM cubed....???.... Inquiring minds want to know... What is life expectance at 9000 RPM?
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What is the relationship between RPM and expected engine life? Engine life is approximately equal to the inverse of RPM or RPM squared or RPM cubed....???.... Inquiring minds want to know... What is life expectance at 9000 RPM?
Just a guess Glenn, but since the 9000 RPM is past the redline on all the W113 engines, I would suspect that the engine life at that RPM is "not very long".
More to the point however, I think it is common knowledge that your engine--any engine--will generally last longer at lower RPM's, on average. They'll last longer in light duty; and highway duty, too, as opposed to all ths short stop and go, running around town duty. Europeans typically designed and built engines with higher redlines; my guess is that compared to the generally higher HP American car engines of the era, you needed the higher RPM's to get more torque. Higher revving engines require lighter valvetrains and usually OHC which the American engines were late to bring to the table. There's all kinds of data and articles written about this, just shovel the BS aside and you can get to some common sense facts about valve train weight, RPM vs. HP vs. torque, etc. A Google search will keep you busy for a long time.
Many enjoy a quieter ride, but we all live in fear of thowing a rod--but let me tell you this: it does not make much difference if you throw a rod at 4500 RPM or 5500 RPM. It's kind of a disheartening experience. Having lived through one in an old Opel (thankfully not mine!!!) I can tell you it isn't pretty.
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Brings back good memories... spent a month in Provence a few years ago.. can't wait to go back!
What is involved (work and cost-wise) in changing the rear-end ratio?
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Hi Phil,
I changed my rear axle last year and it isn't too difficult to do once you have mastered the removal of the compensating spring. I purchased the axle for about £350 and spent about the same again in new parts for the rebuild. The actual axle swap was completed in a weekend and its well worth the effort. When I was researching the swap I had a quote of £1k for the work and £1k for the new axle and I have also heard of people buying axles for £200 or so and fitting them straight in as is.
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James, are you gojng to post some photos of your car with its new wheels (and axle)?
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How about what happens 0-60? Thats where I have fun. Like mdsalami stated..,.you are americanizing the car. I kind of got used to that high rpm sound.
abe
I don't know on the manual trannies but the swap with an auto is a kick. First gear is now usable and will pull you up to 30mph preety quick.
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I've been following this thread with interest as I've recently inherted my father's 280SL and find it very busy, even on two lane highway. When I first drove it I remember thinking it might not have been in top gear, as it seemed at least 500 rpm high! On the freeway it is noisy and a bit bothersome. I was surprised with this as it has always been my experience that Europeans love tall gearing...as do I.
Of course an axle swap is an expensive and extreme move for a car that is an occasional driver... however the benefits in comfort, fuel econonmy and reduced engine stress are enticing! As some have pointed out I don't expect the difference in acceleration would be a big deal, particularly compared to the benefits...and I'm not going drag racing!
In my case I expect a little hard to justify all the work under present circumstances.
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Finally made the commitment and reserved a 3.46 axle from the guys that will do the work for me. They cannot do the reconditioning and swop until end March and given the weather that is not a problem. So will book a trip back to the UK early April have the work done and report back.
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rob
I'll happily post pictures of the car but you can't see any difference. The wheels have the old wheel covers on. Ride height is the same and the diff is a slightly cleaner, newer looking version of the old one ;D
besides, the car is a bit dirty at the moment, having been used quite a bit over Christmas. Now the roads are all salted.... :-[
If you're over before April, gimme a shout and I'll see if I can get an exeat to come take you for a spin. I assume Gavin Edwards will be doing the swap?
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Rob,
You will not regret the change over. The improvement on drivability is outstanding. In the manual, the first gear becomes really usable and cruising is an absolute pleasure. The loss of 0.5 second over a 1/4 mile acceleration, gee who cares when you are enjoying the drive. If it was that important I would have bought a McLaren SL The change over was relatively simple but I installed new brake cables and replaces all the seals. The axle cost me $AU600 and change over $AU1100. A lot cheaper (and reliable) than a 5 speed gear box.
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I'm looking to follow Tosh's example and make the change over. I have - I think - found an axle but wondered if anyone has made the switch from a rear with drum brakes to a rear with discs? I wondered how much additional work that might be, especially in terms of costs if the conversion is too complex to do myself.
Any ideas/opinions?
James
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James, I will be there in April to get the car out of store up to Suffolk and then will take it to RE who will be doing the swop. Will let you know dates.
James (Howard) MercMan has an axle he wants GBP 300 for it! I can forward you his emails ref this if you want.
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rob
I'll happily post pictures of the car but you can't see any difference. The wheels have the old wheel covers on. Ride height is the same and the diff is a slightly cleaner, newer looking version of the old one ;D
besides, the car is a bit dirty at the moment, having been used quite a bit over Christmas. Now the roads are all salted.... :-[
If you're over before April, gimme a shout and I'll see if I can get an exeat to come take you for a spin. I assume Gavin Edwards will be doing the swap?
James are these 14" or 15" wheels then?
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5.5 x 14s
the w123 alloys. Couldn't wait for the rarer 6"
My MXVs fit and the 1cm difference on width at the rim is not noticeable