Fastener sizes from parts numbers – is it possible?

[MnSL]

Due to a fire in the restoration shop where my car was being restored, the shop went out of business and I got my car back in boxes!  No kidding. 

I have pretty much everything I need to start restoring the car – except a way to match the hundreds of loose fasteners to the correct part, threaded insert or nut.  See attached for one of my Box O Bolts.
None of manuals I know of; have individual fasteners listed - only part numbers.  My Service Manual (BBB) does not list fasteners size nor does the small glove box parts manual or on-line Electronic Parts Catalog.

I have been in touch with the Classic Center and they do not have any resources or publications available.

What I need is a document or method that indicates the actual size of the bolt, nut or fastener such as: M10x1.25, etc. – and not the just the part number.  With this document or method I can then cross reference the MB part number to match the gazillion fasteners I have.

Does anyone know if:
1. The Ersatzteilliste/Spare parts list CD-ROM W 113 (part number 6510000700) lists actual fastener sizes?
2. The W113 Service Manual CD-ROM (part number QL-6516-5415-02) lists actual fastener sizes?
3. Does MB or a member have a simple cross-reference spreadsheet of common MB fasteners and their part numbers (used during the late 60s)?  My guess is that fastener part numbers have not changed much in decades.

Thanks,
MnSL

[Anfinn]

Hi,
I have often felt the same need as you, in the year I have worked on the restoration of my car.
Unfortunately I don't think such a reference is available
(In some of the posts the poster has mentioned the relevant wrench size to use for a particular fastener, and this is helpful.)

In general I feel fasteners are considered to be consumables, and at the assembly point the correct fastener was always available, and the "assembler" knew which one was correct.
Your picture shows machine thread screws, which I think are less of a problem to identify than the steel plate screws. - They either fit or they don't, - they are either the correct length or not...

The best advise I can offer is to sort your fasteners according to type and size, and pick the right one as you go along.

The steel sheet fasteners are more difficult to determine, as it's difficult to be certain which length they should be.
But for these I have bought a supply of the types and size used on the car, and it's usually no big deal if I use a long one.

[john.mancini]

With American automobile manufacturers, assembly manuals are still available. These assembly manuals illustrate and list every piece of hardware that went into the vehicle. Page by page, detailed illustrations give the part number and show EXACTLY where that piece of hardware went. There MUST be assembly manuals SOMEWHERE for the 113's. How else would the workers know how to build the cars? It's frustrating at times because it seems almost impossible to track down correct hardware for 113 restorations. Has anyone ever seen Mercedes assembly manuals?
John

[Jonny B]

There are very detailed assembly manuals for the 113 cars. I did an article on these for Pagoda Notes a couple of issues back. The manual with the parts and pictures is numbered 10XXX (10126 for the B 230SL manual I believe). There is also a small parts manual without the numbers that came with the car, these are numbered 12XXX, so the companion manual for the big book mentioned would be 12126. The big books were used only by the dealers. These books come up from time to time on ebay. The latest version used to be available through the Classic Center (be a bit careful, as the reprint, will be for the latest models, and there are details that will not fit the early cars (one thing I can think of is the exhaust manifolds for the 230SL).

The detail books do list ALL the part numbers, including the screw sizes.

[waqas]

Speaking of the dealer parts manual, here's the rare 230sl manual (I already have this and I've found it invaluable!)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MERCEDES-BENZ-230SL-DEALER-PARTS-BOOK-EXCELL-AS-OF-1967_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1163Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a0Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem350154008664QQitemZ350154008664QQptZMotorsQ5fManualsQ5fLiterature

[john.mancini]

Hi Johnny B,
Thanks for the info. I have some of the smaller parts books that came with the cars but they seem very limited. I had never seen the larger dealer books (until recently on eBay), but you are saying that these served as the assembly manuals and are more detailed with hardware parts numbers?? The dealer book that is currently on eBay seems very expensive. Thanks again,
John

[66andBlue]

It looks to me that MnSL wants more than what is listed in the spare parts list.
For example, the list that  Jonny B. mentions [10126] shows that the the oil pan needs 16 screws: p/n 000933 007023 and it identifies them as "hex. head screws". But it does not list the size!  Same goes for the screw that holds the starter motor: p/n 000 912 012059 "Cylindrical head screw", but no size or grade listed.
However, it might be worthwhile asking the Classic Center if they can find out what kind of screw it is once the p/n is known.

John, the complete  "spare parts list" shows the p/n for each part, not just a picture like the one that came with the car.
Take a look at my recent post in this topic: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=10104.0. It shows a picture of a page and might give you an idea what to expect. Those complete spare parts lists usually sell between $120 - $200 for a 230SL and bit less for the 280SL since that one can be bought as a CD from M-B.

[MnSL]

Thanks for the advice; Anfinn, john.mancini, Jonny B, waqas and 66and Blue - all good.  This is a tough challenge.

66and Blue:
You seem to have summed it up best.  Your earlier post (10104.0) corroborates what I thought might be correct - the part manuals only indicate the part number and description of the bolt, nut or screw - not the size.

I'm going to stop by my dealer and see if they can shed some light on the subject.  I think my best bet is to see if some sort of fastener parts number/size document exists or maybe an Assembly Manual.  Another option might be that I just sit down in front of the MB fasteners bins at my dealer and start writing down numbers (I'll bring donuts that day!!<g>)

Let me know if anyone has ever seen a real W113 Assembly Manual.  Typically they are multi-volume beasts that can be measured in lineal feet.  A Corvette buddy of mine had one and it was 13 volumes!!

Thanks,
MnSL


 

[bpossel]

Too bad the PUB cant be 1 week vs a weekend.... we could then help MnSL reassemble his 113 as a project for the PUB...
We could be our own "Overhaul'n" Pagoda team.  Would be fun!!!
Bob 

[waqas]

Too bad the PUB cant be 1 week vs a weekend.... we could then help MnSL reassemble his 113 as a project for the PUB...
We could be our own "Overhaul'n" Pagoda team.  Would be fun!!!
Bob 

Wait a minute!  Can I sign up for that too??   

[john.mancini]

For those who have never seen a Ford, GM or Chrysler assembly manual, you would be impressed by the information available. Those manuals make it possible for clueless amatuers like myself to take apart, and then miraculously, put back together, an entire car. There are usually exploded views from multiple angles, and detailed lists of part numbers on every page. They make life easy. I don't think that the MB parts book was the "bible" used in Stuttgart when the 113's were assembled. Wouldn't you think that there had to be an assembly manual that had part numbers (and sizes for hardware) for assembly workers?
John

[Benz Dr.]

I have a pretty large collection of dealers parts books. Everything from 190SL to 230SL and some engine books. Even rare old trucks and stuff no one ever sees anymore. About the only book I don't have is a 280SL and 300SL. I even have one for the 600.

These books are invaluable for looking up parts and the exploded diagrams have saved me on countless occasions. Other books such as old price guides and Bosch dealer books are like gold when it comes time to get something just right.

Never discount the value of documentation.

[MnSL]

Here's the reason my Corvette buddy used the Assembly manual.  He needed to determine the EXACT assembly order so he could make sure which bolt heads had factory paint on them and which one didn't. 
His 63 Split window was perfection and better then when it came off the St. Louis assembly line.

I heard from the CC today.  Tom was able to share a uncomfortable tidbit regarding my assumption that fastener part numbers are stable for decades - Not:

From Tom,
It's just the opposite. We get more number changes on fasteners than routine parts, and there's no cross-reference book. Big nightmare for us parts guys.

Rats!!  The plot thickens.  I'll keep the group informed as I journey through this maze.

OK bpossel and wagas - I give, what does PUB stand for?
Oh and you guys are welcome to come up here to the arctic tundra.  We can have a nice campfire, crack a few brewskis, enjoy some fresh Walleye and sort bolts until we go cross-eyed!! <g>

MnSL

[glenn]

MnSL, PUB is 'Pagoda University (at) Blacklick.  I coined this before the 2007 meet(if I remember correctly).   JA et al have the BEST car show for real car fans.

[Peter van Es]

Come on... someone give him the link....

It's in Events... http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?board=7.0

Peter

[JamesL]

Too bad the PUB cant be 1 week vs a weekend.... we could then help MnSL reassemble his 113 as a project for the PUB...
We could be our own "Overhaul'n" Pagoda team.  Would be fun!!!
Bob 

If that's the plan, I volunteer my car!

[waqas]

MnSL,

A few years ago, I purchased a second 230SL with the excuse (half-facetiously, at most) of using it as a template for re-assembling my primary 230SL... maybe you too should get another one?? 

You might have to disassemble and then re-assemble a few things here and there... but then it wouldn't be any fun otherwise, would it now? 

[Naj ✝︎]

MnSL,

The advantage you've got is how much this group can help you. Quite a seachange from 2001 when I bought a running 230 SL with boxes of stuff still in the trunk.
There are at least a couple of guys here who have rebuilt complete cars and many others who now every detail of some part or the other of the car.
Post pictures and ask questions...

Many of the fastners have 12 digit part numbers with a 'N' prefix. I beleive the are called 'din' numbers are to a German standard. I was told that there s literature available which tells you how to decipher these numbers. Perhaps someone else here can confirm?
The N numbers are quoted in two batches of six. Look at the first three numbers of the second batch. I believe this gives the diameter of the fastner in mm. Unfortunately, the last three do not give you the length!

naj

[waltklatt]

Hello MnSL,
I have a DIN parts book(shows all the nuts and bolts and fasteners used for the 1980 years, not sure if it links to the older models) from 1980 and it's yours for the postage.
Walter
1967 220SL-diesel
various SL parts in the frozen garage

[MnSL]

PUB - An institute of higher learning - cool!!  I understand England has a bunch of those universities scattered around the countryisde.  I seem to recall taking a few glasses...er...a...classes at the Snowshill Arms...
I've put Blacklick on my calendar and should be able to go.  I'll be bringing my bolts...

wagas - Good idea about the parts car.  In fact I was going to buy a parts car a couple days ago until I discovered the prices (10-15K) and the feeding frenzy that happens around the parts cars. (see my post in the "for sale" forum).  I'll keep looking, but I don't think I will find a reasonable priced one.

naj - You are SO right about the helpful nature of this forum.  It is priceless having access to the knowledgable members who share their time and talents.  Not to mention, the good natured ribbing!!

I spoke with my dealer today.  They have a 30 yr parts veteran who said the same thing about the DIN fasteners.  However, he indicated that only a small percentage of the fasteners actually contained the entire code.  He also confirmed Tom's comment about the fastener part number merry-go-round.  He said, sometimes the same bolt may have changed it's part number six or more times.

waltklatt - What gracious offer!!  That is very nice of you.  I think I'll take you up on that offer with the idea that I will return it or pass it along to the next individual for the same price.  How do we hook up with out revealing info?

MnSL

[Peter van Es]

I found a document on the site of http://www.Pagodentreff.de, I'm attaching it here. Apparently a company in Germany sells complete packs of the chrome nuts and bolts you need for a Pagoda (http://www.chromschrauben24.de/).

They compiled this list. It's in German, but one day I'll translate it and put it in the Wiki. At least it addresses the more visible nuts and bolts you need.

Peter

[MnSL]

vansp,

Thanks for moving the post.  This is a better place.

I've bookmarked the site you sent.  Thank you.  I'll have to get a German friend of mine to help me navigate though - I don't read German<g>.

MnSL

[Peter van Es]

Google can translate reasonably well... and this is relatively easy!

Peter

[Bob G ✝︎]

Intresting conversation. I have a good source for Din books for all models of the mercedes-Benz line of the 1960s. If you have the big parts book this companion book can really help. PM off line and I will give anyone my contact.


Sincerely
Bob Gecko
@yahoo.com