Author Topic: Timing chain replacement  (Read 11837 times)

Ulf

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Timing chain replacement
« on: March 15, 2009, 16:17:44 »
Is that a job that requires the engine to come out?

Best regards

Ulf
1965 230 SL in silver (DB180)
1982 Land Rover Series III SWB
2008 Jaguar XF 3.0
2005 Mini Cooper

DavidBrough

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Re: Timing chain replacement
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2009, 16:24:31 »
Hi Ulfi,

This is generally done with the engine in place but is much easier with the bonnet/hood removed. It's not too difficult and there are plenty of detailed posts on the topic if you try a search. The main issues are to be careful with the cam timing and fill the gap round the chain with rags so you don't drop anything into the engine.

Try this one http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=661.0

Good luck.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2009, 16:34:23 by DavidBrough »

glenn

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Re: Timing chain replacement
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2009, 16:52:46 »
First, Why does the chain need replacement?

Benz Dr.

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Re: Timing chain replacement
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2009, 05:33:01 »
Probably because the chain is worn.

You only need rags in the chain case while you attach the master link. Keep everything clear otherwise.

I use tie straps to hold the chain in place if I'm by myself. Cut the strap off ( don't drop it in the engine ) as you go and move to a new spot on the can gear as it turns.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Ulf

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Re: Timing chain replacement
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2009, 08:54:16 »
The reasons are that the engine sounds like a diesel (described in an earlier thread "sound like a diesel when warm), that my mechanic claims it is 10 degrees off timing - the equivalent of half a tooth on the cog (could be a wrong or very worn chain?) and as a preliminary measure as I have virtually no history on the car despite trying to track its last owner in the US (a guy called Lawrence Liebermensch from San Diego).

Best regards

Ulf
1965 230 SL in silver (DB180)
1982 Land Rover Series III SWB
2008 Jaguar XF 3.0
2005 Mini Cooper

merrill

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Re: Timing chain replacement
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2009, 21:25:03 »
this links shows one how to do the job on a diesel.

http://www.dieselgiant.com/replacetimingchain.htm

The motor is different but I think the basics process is the same...
Matt
Austin Tx
66 230 sl - "white"
78 300 D - Blue
98 C230

Ulf

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Re: Timing chain replacement
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2009, 07:51:45 »
Thanks Merrill - dieselgiant, how appropriate in regards to the current sound of my engine...
I'll pass it on to my mechanic!

best regards

Ulf
1965 230 SL in silver (DB180)
1982 Land Rover Series III SWB
2008 Jaguar XF 3.0
2005 Mini Cooper

glenn

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Re: Timing chain replacement
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2009, 14:55:49 »
How about the chain tensioner and chain guides?  A offset key on the cam shaft will take care of the cam shaft to crank shaft mis-alignment.

Largeowner

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Re: Timing chain replacement
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2009, 15:57:06 »
Hello Ulf,

I have a 230 SL with the very same symptoms.  How did you determine the problem was the timing chain, versus valve adjustment?  I recently had a valve adjustment, but the noise persists.

By the way,  are you also replacing the chain tensioner?

Largeowner

Ulf

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Re: Timing chain replacement
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2009, 19:14:01 »
Largeowner - by trial and error, see my thread "sounds like a diesel when warm". Must be on page #2 by now, posted more than a month ago.
I replaced a few injectors, plugs, air filter, had my mechanic adjust the valves, timing and throttle linkage - all to little avail. Then he found out that the chain is 10 degrees off, but cannot give any precise answer as to why it's off.
So now I'll have him replace the chain plus all the tensioners (while he is in there anyway), hopefully he will have time for it around Easter, which gives me time to fiddle with some other stuff (new seat belts, grease-gunning the nipples, new door seal etc.) until then,
Spring arrived today and I just saw a beautiful beige Pagoda on my way to the airport to pick up my wife and daughter...think we all feel a little impatient as soon as the sun comes out...

Best regards

Ulf
1965 230 SL in silver (DB180)
1982 Land Rover Series III SWB
2008 Jaguar XF 3.0
2005 Mini Cooper

glenn

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Re: Timing chain replacement
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2009, 20:40:58 »
Ulf, Only one 'chain tensioner'.  A couple 'chain guides'.   All chains stretch in use.  An 'offset' key on the cam shaft adjusts the camshaft to be in sync with the crank.  Between the tensioner and offset keys the 'slack in the sync' should be fixed. 'Diesel' noise should not come from correctly adjusted valves and cam/crank sync.   When everything is A-OK, these engines purr!!
« Last Edit: March 19, 2009, 20:48:48 by glenn »

hands_aus

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Re: Timing chain replacement
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2009, 06:39:03 »
I was told that if there is still a valve noise after adjusting the valves then it could be the rocker post and the rocker arm are no longer in the same grooves.
Apparently they can wear together to form a particular symmetry.
Adjusting the valves can change that symmetry and you could end up with the same or similar 'valve' noise.
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
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best of the best

glenn

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Re: Timing chain replacement
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2009, 11:14:17 »
hands_aus,  If the ball studs are worn to quarter inch posts ??? ------(200,000 miles?)-----replace them and the rocker arms.

Largeowner

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Re: Timing chain replacement
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2009, 17:01:48 »
In my own case, I do not suspect the "high mileage" problems others have noted as my car has 88 thousand on the clock.  My next move is to see if there is any travel left in the tensioner, and I will decide from there.  Probably a good idea to check the rocker arms etc while I am in there anyway.  Thanks for the inputs!

Largeowner

ja17

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Re: Timing chain replacement
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2009, 04:33:47 »
Hello,

Valve train noises can come from many areas.  Some fixes are simple and cheap, others can be costly and complex. First you need to identify the noise correctly to help diagnose the problem.  Is is a tap, tap, tap, tap, tap etc noise?  Is it a general clattering nose in general? Does it come and go or remain constan? Is it isolated to one area or does it sound like it is coming from one spot along the engine.

Start with the cheap and easy fixes first.

The valve cover hold down straps can be bent inward and touch the camshaft if the valve cover hold down bolts are tightened too much.  Remove the valve cover and make sure you have plenty of clearance between the straps and the camshaft.  This situation is hard to diagnose if you do not know what you are looking for.  It can make a sound just like a loose valve adjustment and will drive you crazy trying to find it. There is a bit of info and photo in "the valve adjustment tour" on this subject.

Obviously loose valve adjustment will cause noise also. Check and set valve adjustment. If you find any adjusters way out of adjustment, remove the rocker arms and check their contact surface for flat wear spots. Worn rockers cannot be seen without removal. They will continue to make tapping noise no matter how many times they are adjusted. Rocker replacement will solve the issue as long as the camshaft is not worn also.

Worn ball stud adjusters can also cause valve adjustment to be inaccurate and non lasting. the ball studs can wear and form a "wear crown"  on their tops instead of a round ball with flat. Replace the ball stud adjusters or grind the crown off flat to ball. This should improve adjustability and quiet the valves if this is the issue.

Improper valve geometry from numerous or severe valve and seat grinding can be an issue as Dan has mentioned many times. This is a bit rare, and difficult to diagnose so I would suggest looking at this last. In sever cases, thinner valve shim pads are used and the rocker arm contacts the valve spring retainer before contacting the shim pad. The result is an isolated tap from that particular valve. The fix could be simple or possibly a complex head removal.

Timing chain stretch or wear can cause a general clattering noise while running or under acceleration. The timing chain is made up of 134 links each having a hinged pin. These pins will wear slightly like any hinge pin from years of use. A minute amount of wear on each pin (few thousandths of an inch) will result in quite bit of chain "stretch" when multiplied by 134 links. Engine timing chains should be replaced every 100,000 miles.  The chain tensioner are robust and will usually last the life of the engine.  Automatically replacing it is always safest, most expensive and usually not needed. Inspection of the cam sprocket, tensioner and rails may indicate some of these parts are needed. Good experienced eyes and good decisions will help you from replacing parts which are good.  The original aluminum/rubber chain rails do not break off and fall in the chain after years of use. Mercedes changed to plastic replacement chain rails in later years.  The plastic rails become brittle after years of use and exposure to engine heat and chemicals. A loose chain banging on these brittle plastic chain rails can break them off and wipe out the timing chain and cam. Upper chain rails can be replaced if needed without major difficulties.

Bad tensioners are rare, but can cause clattering during cold starts even after a new chain has been installed.  The tensioners are hydraulic and spring activated.  Dirty, sludgy oil may cause them to malfunction.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2009, 04:39:00 by ja17 »
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
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JimVillers

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Re: Timing chain replacement
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2009, 13:03:27 »
Joe .... Thanks for the summation of issues.  I have found the "geometry" problem on a 121-940 head I had received after passing several hands.  The exhaust valve seats had been ground too deep into the head so that when I refurbished the head, I could not get any adjustment from the ball stud, even with 3.5mm shims.  I am currently having new seat installed into the head.

I found the specification for the gap between the valve crown and the bottom of the head in the Technical Data Manual which verified the issue; always a wise reference. 
Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, MGB 5-Speed, MGB GT V8 RHD (real MG), 2016 SLK

Ulf

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Re: Timing chain replacement
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2009, 08:38:37 »
Joe, thanks for the elaborate input - I'll print it and pass it on to my mechanic as soon as he has time for my car.

Rgds

Ulf
1965 230 SL in silver (DB180)
1982 Land Rover Series III SWB
2008 Jaguar XF 3.0
2005 Mini Cooper