When is a Pagoda, not a "pagoda"?

[mdsalemi]

Question: When is a Pagoda, not a "pagoda"?

Answer: When what I present to you is an early and preliminary design sketch for our beloved car, dated June 1960, from none other than Paul Bracq.  The design is prior to the collaboration and refinement by both Bracq and Bela Barenyi which led to the famous Pagoda-shaped concave roof.  In case there might be any doubt (see old post on "Revisionist History") about Bracq's contribution, I also have a copy of French patent, application #942.446 and patent #1.364.398 submitted on 24 July 1963, approved on 11 May 1964 for the Pagoda roof.  Entitled "Car with a roof section a concave arch"; inventors Bela Barenyi and Paul Bracq, assigned to Daimler-Benz.

I am hoping to craft an article for the MBCA Star Magazine with this recent acquisition and treasure trove of information including early 190SL sketches, many 230SL sketches, preliminary W107 designs, and a lot of cars that simply never made it.

Oh, and for those of you who consider yourself "purists" and would never want to "insult" your Pagoda with the [horror of horrors!] whitewall tires, I can assure you that every single design sketch and idea for this car, by the designer, is shown with whitewalls.  They are what are called "Gangsta" (very wide) http://jampictures.blogspot.com/2008/08/gangster-white-walls.html http://www.impalassforum.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=196485  whitewalls now, and perhaps impossible to get, but whitewalls nonetheless!  So if you really want whitewall tires, go for it!

[thelews]

This would be a nice picture to include in the Pagoda Style book.  Perhaps in the foreword.

Gangsta whites...are these different than the wide whitewalls available from Coker, Diamond, Conti-Classic, etc.?

[mdsalemi]

"Gangsta" is slang, of course, for a certain shall we say, "urban look"?

While I don't think there is a precise definition, if your WW ranges in width from 0 to 1" or so, it is probably a normal WW.  Once you get into the really large ones, 1.5" and above, you are getting into the custom stuff.  There are a few manufactuers out there as you mentioned that specialize in this look, popular in the 1950's (hence its inclusion on a drawing from 1960) and they either reproduce old tires with large WW, or they add a large WW to an existing tire, or they make ersatz WW's which kind of clip on and show as a WW but it really isn't part of the tire.

[thelews]

I only was wondering about the "impossible to get" statement you made.  They're very easy to get, just not cheap.  I just bought 5 for my 190 SL for show.

Most of the new wide whites are made by scraping away the lettering on an existing new radial and then vulcanizing a whitewall the the tire.   http://www.dbtires.com/faq.htm#1

[Dash808]

http://jampictures.blogspot.com/2008/08/gangster-white-walls.html http://www.impalassforum.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=196485

Great, I needed a project today.  Thanks.
Now where did I put my grinder....

[RobMarks]

loved the do it yourself whitewall video!

rob

[abe280SL]

Yeah baby, I am coming out of the closet....I have whitewall tires...the skinny ones.
abe

[Dash808]

Yeah baby, I am coming out of the closet....I have whitewall tires.
abe

Not that there's anything wrong with it.   

[Garry]

Drat, I bought the skinny whitewalls, now I will have to get the grinder to them and if I really mess them up I have a good excuse to go and buy a set of wide white walls. Or should'nt I have admitted that?

[Bob G ✝︎]

 I  am on a roller coaster ride this evening! So excuse my sugar rush ! After this post  I m putting the computer and  me to bed. When is a Pagoda , not a pagoda"! Ok when Britney Spears is at the helm driving on reserve. No We Americans like white wall tires , so that's what they gave us. If you note and do your home work look at the  68 brochure no white wall tires. These silly Americans they talked us in to tail fins with the Heckflose W110 and know whitewall tires.

I remember a man at the swap meets with a very unique tire machine that rolled up to the tires raised the wheel and in the blink of an eye put what ever size white wall you wanted on you car. The used car dealers loved this guy who did this service. however if you remember or associate your self with the name kraco radios and accessoiries. the two brothers whos cars I used to wash their father got started in the auto accessories business  making stick on white walls as his first product.

The family was worth big doe ray me! The father preferred his Rolls Royce to the son's intrest in more exotic transporation.
but that was long time ago I need to goggle Kraco and see if they are still around. they were big with manny Moe & Jack back in the 1970s and 1980s.

good night all or should I say good morgin to our friends over yander.

Bob Geco

[mdsalemi]

PS.  I find it peculiar or fascinating that the historical photo--which to my knowledge has not been published before therefore unseen by most--has taken a back seat to whitewalls.  I believe that the car pictured in the sketch was built as a mockup; there is a B&W photo of a pagoda-less Pagoda in the Engelen book.  I had only mentioned whitewalls because some speak of not--ah forget it.

[knockmacool]

Yes, I too find the picture interesting. It is  eerily bmw-ish- with the shark snout and detailing of rear window

[66andBlue]

...   I also have a copy of French patent, application #942.446 and patent #1.364.398 submitted on 24 July 1963, approved on 11 May 1964 for the Pagoda roof.  Entitled "Car with a roof section a concave arch"; inventors Bela Barenyi and Paul Bracq, assigned to Daimler-Benz....

Michael,
attached for your article and collection is a copy of the US Patent for the Pagoda roof.  But guess who the listed inventors are?
Karl Wilfert and Béla Barényi - Bracq is not mentioned. Why? 
Did Daimler use different names in different countries to satisfy chauvinistic or marketing needs? 
I need to find a copy of the original German patents from 1956 and 1958 (DE 1069009 and DE 1405308) to see who the company listed there but haven't had any luck yet.

[mdsalemi]

Alfred,

Interesting!  I'm sure you noted it wasn't an invention patent but a design patent.  Filed around the same time. (BTW: Wilfert was Bracq's boss and the one who hired him.)

However, if you look up regular (as opposed to design) US patent #3,169,793, (filed 1/6/64, issued 2/16/65) you'll find it titled Motor Vehicle With Concave Top.  Inventors?  Bela Barenyi and Paul Bracq.  What is interesting with all that is that the design patent you cite clearly has a W113 as its graphic element.  The car is in hashed form, while the top--the design--is solid.  On the actual invention patent, the drawing is some bizarre thing bearing no resemblance to much of anything, save perhaps for an AMC Pacer...(focus on the ROOF, not the CAR) in some kind of push-me pull-you form.

You can search international patents to find those you are interested in by trying this link: http://ep.espacenet.com/  Some of the earlier patents by Barenyi, probably included in the ones you are looking for, are for a "Passenger Car With Substantially Flat Roof".  There's a US patent for that as well, around the same time.

I'm sure that Daimler filed similar in other countries besides France, Germany and US on the same invention, but who knows.  A good friend of mine here is an engineer and patent attorney (and whose firm files for some auto companies) and he says when they file today, sometimes it is in hundreds of countries simultaneously.

[Ulf]

The cheap (both in terms of economy and looks) option is to fit separate whitewalls when fitting the tire, did it on my MGA and it looked pretty good. I suppose the smaller 14" versions for the MGB would fit...

Ulf

[Mike Hughes]

Those "gangsta" white walls were pretty common on Merceces-Banz cars back in the early and mid 60's.  Here is a photo of one of the Fintails that My father-in-law bought new when he was living in Venezuela and Colombia.  That's my mother-in-law, my wife, and her little sister posing in front of the car.