Musings on travelling in my pagoda (long)

[peterm]

Was invited to show at the Hemmings New England Concours at Stratton mountain yesterday, a fabulous venue in a place very familiar to me- even though its 238 miles away I can do the drive in my sleep thanks to a winter hobby. 

Leaving saturday a little warm but a fabulous top down day- oops Throgs Neck bridje closed making long island traffic a bear crawl.  My recent new radiator/water pump, timing/shroud/water wetter that had been working failed temp climbs to red quickly- time to turn on the heat and eventually shift to neutral when stopped to increase fan speed (so much for thinking that problem was solved)  Fortunately I covered my seat as the profuse sweating would have surely left a stain.  Eventaully things opened with clean sailing until New Haven where I got to watch the temp gauge raise again in traffic.

Afetr that it was smooth- I felt a bit more confident at 75mph on my new rubber despite the whitewalls Im not warming up to.   Does anyone else feel worn out after driving at speed with the top down for a couple hours?  The noise, the sun and the wind do contribuite to the fatigue.

Finally reached our condo had some dinner and set out for two hours of scaping bugs and road dirt off the car.  Im wearing my not so nicely painted hubcaps that are being replaced but do to miscommunication were delayed-  arrgh- chrome polish doesnt really take off overspray.  Fortunate;ly I brought my portable fluorescent light and could see how much work I really had to do-   

Next am wake uo at 645 to hit the field-  Glorious venue perfect weather and the euro field was literraly in front of my door.  There were many spectacular vehicles here mostly domestic and this was a judged concours that selected cars based on submissiion photos.  Right at the start of judging they announced tops must be up, uh-oh nothing noted on the "friendly" judged concours where they told us no trunks etc.  Ok quick get my Mequiars #17 out and start polishing the plastic window.  I guess I should have predicted this but no matter.  Hmmm a 107 owner comes over to me asks me what Im using and askes to borrow it-  Ok I just finished the outside take a little more for the inside and let him have it.  Hmm he spends quite a bit of time after I have crawled into my rear compartment to do the inside and realize I need more.  I need to extricate and go over to him to ask for more! (note to self don't be a nice guy)  Later he tells me he owns an auto parts store, never herad of this product but will carry it from now on.  In my class there was a PERFECT 924 which won (Art cleans his undercarriage with a tooothbrush), two 107's, a fiat, a rover(2nd). 

After a fabulous weather day - gondola ride to the summit of stratton (free to season pass holders!) time to go home.  Everything seems fine- about a half hour into the ride (top up after learning that lesson) very strange whinng sound coming from the dash.  Best as I can figure its the tach- make a note that needs to be addressed.  Crusing quite nicely at 75 (note to self- Ineed a ipod adaptor for the becker there is no worthwhile radio above hartford)  Accident with traffic on 91 slow to a crawl-  oops heat back up time to cook again-  then stagely enough the generator light comes on- great hmm it gets dimmer when i shift to neutral and keep the revs up, thats a plan  except when the traffic goes on for 3 or 4 miles arrgh.  Clear that traffic back to spped looks like the light is out great.  91/95 merge back in traffic same scenerio for awhile but now Im getting used to it.  Gas gauge low- afraid to stop will it restart?? got to take that chance-  Pick a pump where I wont block everything if I cant restart.

Well it restarts and as I travel closer to home it s getting dark-  hmm somewhere along the way the speedmoter and tach bulbs dont work Another note to self.  Iits also evident that the generator light is always on albiet dim when the revs are up. Eventually make iit over the whitestone bridge with a huge sigh as I know at this point I can get it towed to where I want it to go.  Pull in the driveway and turn the car off.

Thats my last long road trip- 113 is destined to starbux only trips now.  Hmm, unless I get a trailer............

[mdsalemi]

Hello Peter,

Those darn temperature woes!

You probably have a loose belt for the alternator, or simply minor slippage.  No need to limit driving just to 'bucks.  A quick connection at any battery shop will let you know about that.

When travelling to a show in the summer, spray the front of your car lightly with PAM unflavored.  Yes, the spray oil used to keep the eggs sticking from the frying pan.  A simple wash at your destination is all that is needed.  Eggs don't stick and neither do bugs.  An old trick.

You should look up Tom Rose of this site and maintain a contact with him--he's been working on the cooling issue for some time now.

iPod is great.  Don't forget a portable satellite radio, might be better!!

I don't mind the long drives in summer but hate stop and go with a passion.  For that I'll take a 10-year old Ford any day, with enough a/c to not worry about yourself, and enough engineered cooling so that it can sit at idle, motionless, in 100 degree weather and not go a tick off Normal...been there and done that.

Nice story!

[TR]

Howdy Michael and Peter.

I'm hoping this does not sound too arrogant but am ready to declare victory re the engine overheating issue.  I travel to the Phoenix / Scottsdale, Arizona area fairly routinely, and as everyone knows it can get pretty hot there; I think it hit 107 degrees F today.  It was there a couple of years ago while at Barrett-Jackson that I noticed some really nice vintage cars from that area were running Ron Davis Co. engine cooling systems.  I contacted the Ron Davis people and as was told they had never done a W113, but had done 300SLs.  That got my attention and I decided to go for it and have not been sorry.

Here in Boise, Idaho we also have some pretty hot weather.  The other day I took the car out for a long uphill run through the mountains with the outside temperature at 105.  Even with the A/C blowing ice-cold air (and those Webasto seat fans also pushing cool air – ha!) I could not get the engine temp gauge to even move.  In addition to watching the temp gauge I also carry an IR temp gun and can easily open the hood and check the temp profile / gradient from front-to-back, and it also looks good.

We just wrapped up the first major shake down run, did 1,200+ miles through Idaho and Oregon and all performed well.  As a few old friends here know I do not give up easily when it comes to some challenges, and I have never accepted that one has be anything but comfortable while driving these fine machines.

The new engine from Metric Motors is set up properly and is performing quite well (special thanks to Mike Elias and Gus for all their terrific support).  But I believe the key to the engine temp gauge holding stable under the very demanding situations I've tested it in is the new cooling system from the Ron Davis company.  I know there are other vendors who can offer this sort of thing, but if you are interested then here is a link to their website:  http://www.rondavisradiators.com/new_products.htm

And Jeff Clute if you are reading this the terrific 3.27 rear end, which you so kindly supplied, has also proven a wonderful improvement; thanks again.  As you said, it is a good combo with the 4-speed manual; much more fun to work the gears now.

Michael, I am still planning on visiting Death Valley to see how the car's engine cooling system (plus the amped-up Frigiking A/C) handles temperatures in the range of 130 degrees.  Besides, it will be fun to stay at the Furnace Creek Inn again.

Best,
Tom Rose

[Naj ✝︎]

Hello, Tom,

Was it just a new radiator or were other items added/changed?

naj

[TR]

Hi Naj.  In response to your question, I believe the primary benefit came from the Ron Davis radiator.  Although some people refer to it as an engine cooling "system".  All that means is that it is a package, which is composed of the high-performance aluminum radiator, with integrated water-cooled oil radiator function, 2 high volume SPAL puller fans, a precision-fit shroud, along with a little bit of intelligence in the form of electronics for controlling those big fans.  In terms of engine cooling, the only other thing that had been changed (previously) was the addition of the M-B recirculation kit.  I am running a standard mixture of M-B coolant & water.  (I had tried water-wetter and the like previously but saw no benefit).

I should point out that I had the alternator upgraded to 160 amp (constant output) and have changed the car's wiring, etc. to handle all the increased power draw(s).  Things like those big SPAL fans for the engine, plus another SPAL unit for the A/C blower combined can pull approx. 80 amps (and that is just 3 fans).  And then there are 100W headlamp bulbs, Webasto seat heaters, seat coolers, back messagers ... well, the list could go on.  But it tends to greatly aggitate a few folks, so perhaps I should stop there on the long list of added power consumers / creature comforts.

BTW, it was another hot & sunny day in Boise, Idaho, at 102 F.  I ran a few errors around town; top-down, but with the A/C blasting and the Webasto seat coolers (modified) it was pleasant ... this from a guy who does not like heat, and who was forced to set through several minutes of dead-stop because of road work - but the engine temp held steady.

I've heard it said that a properly set up W113 engine can hold temperature and will not overheat.  But I have my doubts about that and have been on a quest to just make the issue of one overheating 280SL go away.  So far I am encouraged.

[DavidBrough]

Hi Tom,

I've also been wrestling with cooling issues for some time and currently have a three core steel radiator a pair of 10” Spal medium pull fans and an electric water pump. These are currently hooked up to a two stage thermal switch fitted in the top of the radiator. I have ordered the Spal electronic controller which I plan to fit when it arrives but as this is not available in the UK I have had to order it from the US. Whilst all that works over here I do have to say that it would be hard pushed to deal with your 100+ temperatures. I would be keen to know what fans you have fitted and how the space was made for high performance units as those I have looked at are almost 4 inches deep and just wouldn't fit on my car. Do you have any pictures?

[jharkin]

just as info, i lived in boise for 3 years and ran a stock 250sl all year and never had any problems with the car overheating, or even running hot. should never have sold that car  :'( 

[jameshoward]

Tom,

Maybe there's a difference between the various engines. I have a late 230 and other than a shroud and a reconditioned rad (nothing fancy) and a new waterpump (I fitted them all so it's probably not perfect) my car doesn't ever run hot. Of course, it isn't ever 100 degress in the UK, but I took it to S France last Summer, and it was hot there. We also got stuck on the peripherique at rush hour in the mid afternoon and whilst the needle moved a little, it never got hot. I have a visco fan coupling also, but it's old (although Naj reckons it's still OK, so that's good enough for me).

Anyway, my cars temp is very stable even in hot (though not USA Death Valley hot) temperatures. I don't have aircon to really stress things, but it causes no problems.

Separately, it took 2 days to drive from N Germany to S France with our two rotties (there's a photo on the site somewhere). I left the hardtop on for the journey and took it off when we arrived. My seats are uncomfortable on 9 hour journeys, but most cars these days are. My problem is the fact that I'm stuck at about 65-70mph all day because of my 4,08 axle.

JH

James

[bpossel]

fyi...

I even had some issues with the temp climbing after I did all the work on my car...  Metric rebuild (top & bottom), and high eff recore of my oe radiator (done by a local Memphis radiator shop).

I was very dissapointed!  I then contacted Gernold and he said that he never has any issues with his radiator recors to high eff.  So, even though I spent 400+ to recor mine, I decided to try one of Gernolds.  So, I sent him mine as a core, and he sent me one of his rebuilds.

What a difference!  No issue with temps...  A couple of weeks ago, the temps in Memphis were over 105 degrees. Temp held good!  Today, driving from Memphis to Cincinnati, we hit some terrible traffic jams on the interstate.  Crawled in stop and go traffic on the highway for an hour +.  No issue with temps.  Of course, it did climb above the mid point, but never a concern!  Now the rain with the trucks is a whole "nother" issue!  Tomorrow is 280sl car clean day in Cincinnati!

Not sure what Gernold's folks do to the core rebuild, but it works! Thanks Gernold!

Bob

[J. Huber]

Just one more experience for good measure -- It gets pretty warm here during the height of summer (90s) but I try and take a drive nearly every day for therapy. Now granted the closest thing we have to a traffic jam is 5 cars at a stop sign, but I have been in a few in Sac & SF. Typically, the needle does not budge. It will move slightly if I stand at idle for a long long time -- but that's almost never. I had a hi-eff. recore done about 5 years ago. Mechanic sent radiator out to a place that specializes in race cars -- said something about a 3rd row and dimples -- that is all I know. The trick may be to keep moving! (which may require relocating to the countryside)...

[georgem]

Guys, I have a standard radiator in our late 230 and it does get hot in northen Australia where I live. I have never had a problem. Maybee I`m naive but I reckon those smart German Engineers took the world temperature ranges into account. Extra fans, pumps and  what not would indicate to me that there is something basically wrong with the engine. Don`t forget that if a car sits in traffic it will get hotter - fact of life.

The above does not apply to the Austin Healey 3000 that we also own. The poor Poms who designed it couldn`t believe that the car would be driven in any part of the world hotter that 60deg F is it gets seriously hot in traffic BUTit has never boiled.

Cheers

[DavidBrough]

Unfortunately the smart German engineers left their calculators at home when, at the second attempt, they increased the 230 engine to a 280. Thankfully they realised quite soon and modified the head on later engines but those like me that have an early example overheating is a real problem. If you then go and make it worse by fitting A/C like I did then you have to be imaginative to keep the thing cool. Thankfully I’ve pretty much cured it but I have had to be a bit drastic and would dearly like to make a high power fan fit. Of all the Pagoda variants I think the 250 offered the best cooling with the 230 a close second as these cars have to be severely abused to overheat.

[Garry]

hi David,

I have a Feb 69 280 and I had the radiator re cored as it started to leak and whilst have no airconditioning was driving in hot conditions (105 - 110f) last summer with out any problems. I suspect that there is more going on with the cooling system and water jacket.