How many W113 Pagoda SL's are still around?

[Jim Donati]

I am just curious if anyone has any idea how many W113 Pagoda's are still in existence.    It is well documented that of the three models (230sl, 250sl and 280SL) 48,912 in total were produced worldwide.   Does anybody have any information on how many might still be around today?

Surely, someone out there has asked themself this same question.   Who wants to provide us with some insight?

Thanks,
Jim

[Richard Madison]

This question has come up before. I think the best we can do is make a guess.

These cars are the kind owners would sell or hold on to, pass to family members, etc. There are incentives (such as value) to prevent all but the worst cars from going to the crusher. These cars are worth restoring or at least keeping on the road making them more likely to survive.

Some European countries keep national registration records so it might be possible to get the number of Pagodas in a specific country although I do not believe an inquiry has ever been made or if we have suffiicient need to have a national registry supply information on the number of Pagodas in that country.

In the USA, car registrations are kept by each state...there is no national registry. A state like New York has a record of every car in the state that includes year, make, and model. An easy job to get numbers or a print out of all New York Pagodas except that New York has no reason to issue such a report.

I have spoken to the person who is responsible for the NY state automobile database. He explained that while the state has the information, the state has no reason to report by specific models and will not issue such a report.

I suspect many other states have the same data locked in their auto registrations.

It is interesting to know that all states (I believe) sell their car database info to credit reporting companies to use for credit and marketing purposes.

So if you paid enough to one of the major credit reporting or marketing statistics companies in the US, they could give a report of every Pagoda registered in the US by state. This is just what we are looking for. The cost of such a report would put it beyond our reach.

To get back to the question, the most usual GUESS is that about half of these cars have survived but I don't know of any reliable basis for this GUESS.

Richard M, NYC


 

[69280sl]

I have a German parts catalog that I have always thought gave some information on this. It shows the years 1993 to 2001, with (what I think are) quantities for each pagoda model. Maybe one of the German speakers can jump in and save me from further embarrassment if I'm wrong. Under the heading
"Produktionszahlen und Bestandsentwicklung"
                   2001
230sl            1846
250sl             381
280sl            2271

As I say The table has figures from 93 to 01, with the quantities declining slightly each year. What you would expect for attrition.

Gus

[66andBlue]

One recent post on the German Pagodentreff.de web site mentions that the number of registered Pagodas in Germany has increased in 2009 but it was not clear to me what the comparison year is, 2007 or 2008:
230 SL: 1628 Fahrzeuge ( + 45 )
250 SL: 320 Fahrzeuge ( + 4 )
280 SL: 2098 Fahrzeuge ( + 27 )
{Fahrzeuge = cars}

[Richard Madison]

Alfred and others:

Do these figures show that there are about 4,000 Pagodas registered in Germany?

If so, do we have any idea of how many Pagodas were originally sold in Germany?
Maybe the German group has the Pagoda sales figures for Germany. If yes, then we will know the rate of survivors and can guess that the same rate is universal.

Maybe Alfred or Klaus can contact the German group to sort this out.

Richard M, NYC

[66andBlue]

Hi Richard,
correct, this means that about 4000 Pagodas are now registered in Germany.
Now take a look at Tom Koellner's web site: http://www.pagode.info/2.htm
He lists the number of cars that were exported when originally sold and how many went to the USA.
So about 8100 230SL and about 5200 280SL were originally delivered in Germany, or about twice as many 230SL remained in Germany as were sold to the USA but 1.5 times as many 280SL went to the States.
But then of course the great migration - return and back - started, depending on how much the mighty US$ was worth.
What has happened to the 14,000 Pagodas exported to countries other than the USA??

[Richard Madison]

The German website (source of totals is not given) says that 14,697 Pagodas (W113) were sold in Germany. If about 4,000 are now registered there, this is about 27%.

This might indicate a survivor rate except for some correction needed for cars in Germany that were imported back from the USA and elsewhere and a correction for the other Pagodas originally sold in Germany still surviving that are no longer in Germany.

So maybe a good estimate, based on the German figures, is that abouty 30% of the cars have survived or that there are about 15,000 Pagodas still around world wide...the same rate means about 6,000 Pagodas still alive in the USA.

30% seems a low rate of survival to me for a car that was fairly pricey when sold and has been a well respected car since then. I would have guessed that closer to 50% survived but maybe not.

Other factors might be at play such as cash-for-klunkers, environmental regulations, or regulatory disincentives to keep an older car...if these have been in place in various countries, they might have resulted in different survival rates in other countries.

Richard M, NYC

[Jim Donati]

Based on your responses to my question, it seems that the general opinion is there are somewhere between 30% to 50% that still survive.   Although that seems like a reasonable estimate, I doubt we will never really know or be able to agree on a firm number.

Jim

[J. Huber]

One thing that may factor into the "Germany formula" of survivors... I have heard that to remain on the road there, cars must be in pretty good condition. Here in the US, there is no such standard -- so maybe a few more here have dodged the crusher?

[France]

The problem of TUV would have come up in the mid to late 70s as the cars began to age.  Every year the Pagodas would have to pass the TUV inspection, which is quite extensive.  My other half (originally German) says that in that period classic cars were not heavily collected in Germany, and as the Pagoda had poor rust protection and there was lots of salt on the road, he thinks more like 60% of the Pagodas were knocked off the German roads from late 70s to mid 80s. 

[JamesL]

same will be true in the UK. Our annual MOT has long stipulated rust not being near structural members (so suspension mounts, for example). Price to repair would likely, even then, have been more than the value of the car.

For the decade to the mid 80s, the cars would have been pretty much worthless here - classic car price spike aside - as the 107 was in it's pomp and more modern and the Pagoda was just another old sports car.

[Ron]

Two items to think about when using German SL numbers:

1.  Road salt!  Used during the winter, this stuff is horrible on a car, especially on the boxed areas with no interior coating.  Once all those boxes start to rot, its not an easy fix.  Many places in the world do not use salt, and are also dry.  The cars there could survive with higher percentage than in Germany.

2.  In 1966, I lived a few months in Germany.  This would be 20 years after the war, and right in the middle of Pagoda production.  While well on its way to becoming a economic giant of a nation, in many ways Germany was still poor compared to other nations.  (my opinion)  One could still see the effects of the war in many places.  Cars were expensive for the average German, and small scooters, bicycles, and public transit were in heavy use compared to the US.  There were few Pagodas to be seen.  The exchange rate was in favor of the US, things in Germany were inexpensive for dollars.   

Now, 40+ years later, more Germans can afford the SL's and some cars are going back to the homeland.  Perhaps this will counter the road salt losses?  I hate to think of a dry AZ car, rust free, seeing road salt for the first time, but maybe the cars will be too dear to expose them to such hazards.

So, in reading this thread, I'm guessing there's 30 to 50 percent of the cars left.

Ron

[Jim Donati]

Ron:

Hi,  I see you have responded to more than one of my post here in the forum, and now I recognize that you are located in the same town as me.  I live just east of the village of A.G.

I find that interestion, tell me about your pagoda.   I have a 1970 280SL.  I have only owned it for a month or two.   the color is officially Beige/Gray 728H, but I would describe it as champagne color.

Jim

[Miloslav Maun]

Well, there's one thing nobody mentioned - a number of cars that still exist but are not registered anywhere. They are in different condition, some of them very poor, but they still do exist. And as the prices of good cars rise, the poor cars will eventually be restored. I believe that the sum of cars registered in the world will only rise.