Author Topic: IP Rebuild Service  (Read 10443 times)

Tonys113

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IP Rebuild Service
« on: February 22, 2010, 16:07:34 »
Well now that the pump is out of the car....
Can anyone give me some feed back on their experiences with the US based rebuilders.
I see three listed in the supplier section and am wondering if there are any benefits to one over the others

Thanks

Tony

thelews

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Re: IP Rebuild Service
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2010, 16:13:32 »
Give Black Forest a call at 414-228-4899  They've done excellent work on my car and have an IP calibrating machine.  Talk to Michael.  www.blackforestllc.com  http://www.blackforestllc.com/classic_gallery.html  look at page 2, 113 IP rebuild.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 16:22:11 by thelews »
Enjoy some pictures at this link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8292359@N06/sets/72157603240571101/show/

John - Wisconsin
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual #1543
1961 190 SL 23K miles
1964 Porsche 356
1970 Porsche 911E
1991 BMW 318is
1966 Jaguar XKE
1971 Alfa Romeo GTV 1750

scoot

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Re: IP Rebuild Service
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2010, 17:32:23 »
I would also like to hear reviews and opinions of he other IP rebuild service providers.
Scott Allen
'67 250 SL (early)
Altadena, California

bpossel

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Re: IP Rebuild Service
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2010, 17:52:47 »
I would also recommend Pacific Fuel Injection in California.  Contact Gus.
Bob

66andBlue

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Re: IP Rebuild Service
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2010, 19:14:21 »
Tony,
it depends a bit on what you want, that is, just a good pump repair without cosmetic improvements or a complete rebuilt, CAD plating etc, that you can show at a concours.
For the former several members liked the work done by Robert Fairchild (see:
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=10373.0
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=9531.0)
If the latter then Gus is your man as Bob P. pointed out.
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

Tonys113

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Re: IP Rebuild Service
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2010, 19:22:45 »
Thank you Alfred,
There are no concours requirement for my car but quality and accuracy go a long way.
As I really do love to drive my 280SL, with all (Most All) other bugs and issues with the running quality behind me, I will surely appreciate this last obstacle being repaired as though it were new.

Tony

lurtch

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Re: IP Rebuild Service
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2010, 23:23:49 »
Hello Tony,  I  remember you and your Pagoda from last summers PUB workshop event. 

I recall you and Joe A.  driving away in your car several times for a  tuning check-run on that Sunday afternoon in July. Was all of that effort expended in order to get you where you are now?  Have you determined that an FI pump rebuild is the answer to your tuning problems ? and if so, what circumstance finally caused you to decide that?  Just curious, you know - - - .

Regards (and good KARMA),  Larry in CA
Larry Hemstreet  in  N. Cal.

1966  230SL  (restored) Met. Anthracite w/ Maroon leather
1981  300TD-T (Concours condition, 86K, GETRAG 5sp.)
1982  300TD-T (parted out)
1986  560SEC (totaled)
1991  300TE (gifted)
1998  E320 (sold)
2004  E320 wagon (gifted)
2008  CLK550 Cabriolet

jeffc280sl

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Re: IP Rebuild Service
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2010, 01:21:13 »
Did you by any chance inspect your barometric compensator?  I'm also curious to know, if you don't mind sating,  the symptoms that led you to determine a rebuild is necessary. 

glenn

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Re: IP Rebuild Service
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2010, 02:25:47 »
(I) Agree with Jeff.  What is wrong with the pump?  If each FIP piston puts out the same volume per unit of time, is the pump OK?   At 1200 rpm for 30 secs, each injector line should do about a half ml.  Should be within 5% of each other?  Can it be measured?

Tonys113

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Re: IP Rebuild Service
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2010, 14:30:09 »
Lets Start with Larry,
From the PUB we determined that the cam shaft and the crank shaft were misaligned. Why I can not tell you as I have only owned the are at that time for 6 months. The Cam was nearly 20 degrees advanced when the crank was at TDC. From others experiences the Timing chain had been replaced. Additionally but unknown at the time the ignition coil was failing. I had originally replaced the points with a Crane Fireball Ignition and coil only a few months prior.
On the ride home from the PUB, the car had a distinct miss or skip between 2500 and 3000 rpm that was way more pronounced now that the timing was more accurate.
Once I got the car home I removed the gear from the cam shaft, adjusted the cam to TDC and re-assembled the gear and chain. I was suspect about the ignition system and in the process of the disassembly and re-assembly of many components to correct the timing issue, I discovered when removing the ignition coil that it was in fact leaking. Whether it was merely defective or had experienced some short circuit it was definitely not functioning normally. I replaced both the coil and the electronic pick-up with a Petronix unit. Once al back together and the timing spot on I now had a completely different car. The injection pump actually responded to adjustment and I could really make some progress.

For the rest, over the remainder of the season, I made many, Many, MANY adjustments to the IP, Idle was easy and now that I was no longer fouling spark plugs every fifteen minutes I could actually feel small changes in the cars performance. Idle was no problem, cold idle warm idle, cold start, warm start all improved immensely but the car still didn't perform the way I expected or as I have seen others. So off came the BIG NUT on the back of the pump to access the mid-range (1800-2800 rpm). After making more adjustments than I care to admit, remember every time you take that nut off the back of the pump you drop 1/2 quart of oil on the floor, I could not tune out a hesitation and a decellerating (sp) back-fire (Way to rich).

Now of course I have completed the linkage tour, I have replaced all of the ball studs and sockets on the linkages, thoroughly clean the fuel system and replaced all filters. I my mind have exhausted every tuning option I could think of. Additionally this car has 110,000 miles on the clock, it has had a valve job but I don't have a huge amount of history. Also the previous owner did not drive the car, from the service records I do have less than 300 miles had been driven from the time he had acquired the car in 2000 until I received the car in December 2009.

I did speak to Mike at Blackforest yesterday and about 45 minutes later after explain the history of the last year, he has given me some confidence that I have made the correct assumptions and am heading the right direction. I understand that this is not necessarily for the faint of heart or wallet but I have an expectation of performance from this car that has not been met yet and fortunately for Mercedes and Bosch this engine and pump are designed to still run when way out of adjustment. They inherently fail rich. If this car had a carburetor and it was this far out of adjustment it flat our wouldn't run.


Tony

jeffc280sl

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Re: IP Rebuild Service
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2010, 15:38:42 »
Hi Tony,

Sounds like you have done a lot a work to improve your engine performance.  I know what you mean about taking the back cover or screw off   the pump to make adjustments.  In your tuning efforts did you adjust the rack?  Those solenoids sure do get in the way when your trying to adjust the white and black screws.  It's hard enough without the solenoid in the way because of the need for a mirror and good lighting and three hand to make adjustments.  I only have the lower fuel shut off solenoid on my 1970.  I decided take the solenoid off the pump so I made a small aluminum plate to cover the hole.  Did you happen to count CW clicks to stop on the rack, white and black screws?  It would be interesting to record that data before you send the pump out and then check on the after tuning settings to compare.

George Des

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Re: IP Rebuild Service
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2010, 15:46:24 »
I am happy with the work Hans up in NYC did on mine a few years back. Enjoyed talking to him on the phone as we discussed how he would do the rebuild. He talked me through setting it up on the car and he also cleaned and checked my original injectors which he highly recommended that I use instead of the new ones (they changed the design from what I understand and they are not as effective--go figure) that I had already bought.

George Des

ja17

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Re: IP Rebuild Service
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2010, 16:37:35 »
Hello Tony,

Prices and procedures may vary quite widely between  the three or four well known and respected injection pump re-builders. I would check with a few.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

Tonys113

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Re: IP Rebuild Service
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2010, 18:31:44 »
Jeff,
Lucky for me mine is a Euro model with No solenoids on the back of the pump. And yes a mirror plenty of light, 3 hands while standing on you  head is about right.
I have only adjusted the 'BLACK' screws counting and recording the clicks, test driving and re-adjusting. I am sure my neighbors think I am nuts. Up goes the garage door, out comes the car, quick trip around the block, back in the garage. Repeat cycle 10 times. Get frustrated, take a break, a few beers later, repeat all over again. I have adjusted the rack and have counted the clicks back and forth from stop to stop, number escapes me at the moment, but by the end of last season I had reached what I call the limit or at least my limit. The car ran quite well, no more fouled plugs, not much of a foul smell of an extreme rich condition and except for the hesitation and occasional decellerating backfire was really enjoying the MB Experience.
Having said all of this I will be happy have both my new injectors, old injectors, fuel lines cleaned and the pump calibrated. I am sure that once it is all back in the car some more adjustment will be necessary but from a baseline that is better defined.
I am also sure that a CO meter is in my near future purchases to accurately dial everything in.

Tony

jeffc280sl

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Re: IP Rebuild Service
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2010, 20:13:46 »
It is pretty hard to adjust the fip on the car, but it can be done.  I suggest for anyone taking on this job to count CW clicks to stop for each adjusting screw.  That way you can always go back to baseline.  You know that looking at those screws through the mirror it is easy to slip up with CW and CCW turns and on top of that you need to count.  Once you lose confidence in what you've done your dead and without an initial count you can't return to baseline.

Instead of a co meter you may want to consider an afr meter.  You can read about my efforts on this site.  I found what I did to still be somewhat mysterious because of the interaction of the rack, wht/black, idle, wrd and bc.  If you adjust here you affect there.  Atleast I had test data from the arf meter and a MB on road test spec to meet.   

ja17

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Re: IP Rebuild Service
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2010, 23:38:04 »
Hello,

A well known IP re-builder stated that most pumps sent back for rebuild usaully are not bad, but out of adjustment or other minor issues.

I admit I am  one the last people to give up an injection pump to the re-builder. However pump pistons and cylinders can wear from dirt and rust, or can be damaged by moisture or poor lubrication. In addition you will almost always see deep wear grooves in the compound cam that regulates the main rack. You can compensate very well for most of these problems. Eventually they may become too severe.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

Tonys113

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Re: IP Rebuild Service (ALL SMILES)
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2010, 16:11:38 »
Well I received my IP Friday from Black Forest LLC.
OMG.  ;D
Clean, Plated, rebuilt and reset. Fuel lines Cleaned and Plated, Injectors (New and Old) Cleaned and Tested.
Re-Installation was a breeze, much much easier than the removal (Contortionist Required).
As it turned out, a wealth of information was provided by Michael at Black Forest. Especially regarding the injectors.
I had been having fouling issues with cylinder number 5 and low and behold that injector as bad, no seat pressure. All others passed with flying colors. I had replaced these injectors just last summer for a similar problem with both the #1 and #5 cylinders. Testing of the old injectors indicated similar problems with both of those units as well. The best of the old injectors (#4) was re-installed in place of the #5 one. The pump itself was not totally out in left field as far a adjustment was concerned, funny seeing as I had been tweaking every adjustment for most of last driving season.
Jeff, I did count the clicks upon the pumps return and logged them for future reference, I can tell you they are nowhere near where they were when it left my possession.

The car started immediately and idles nearly perfectly. Only some adjustment to the idle air screw was required to bring it into specs.
The smell of raw fuel is at idle is gone, the gear shifting back fire in gone. The car accelerates strong and runs exceptional smooth at all rpm's. All spark plugs are neutral with just a slight white dusting.
Needles to say I am thrilled. Tomorrow possibly I will connect my LM-2 tester to the car and record the Air Fuel readings for confirmation.
It is beautiful day here today in western NY and I think I will go enjoy a nice drive in the countryside with what feels and acts like a completely different car.

Tony

jeffc280sl

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Re: IP Rebuild Service
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2010, 20:24:03 »
Tony,

Great news about your car and rebuilt fip.  Sounds like Blackforest did a nice job.  I'd be very interested to see any data you may have from the LM-2

hauser

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Re: IP Rebuild Service
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2010, 21:34:55 »
I had my IP adjusted at Continental Imports.  Not exactly sure what was done but it was described as adjusting the rack along with having two shims removed.  Whatever they did has got the car running ever so smoothly.