Author Topic: A little maintenance?  (Read 13415 times)

Martijn

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A little maintenance?
« on: December 21, 2008, 14:51:40 »
Last February I bought my 250 SL. It was not just an impulse purchase. At first I did a lot of reading about these SL’s. I bought some books and browsed the internet, but the most valuable information I found in this forum and Wiki. After that I visited several classic car dealerships. I have looked at many different cars and most of them were in rather bad shape. A few months later I found this 250 SL which was in my opinion in a good shape and it was the best car I could find and was affordable with my budget.

Cosmetically the car is quite good. It is not a show car, but for me it’s fine. There was no rust that I could find in the generally known places, although I have to say that a few years ago the car was repainted. The interior is also renewed, as is the soft top. The engine bay looks clean and well taken care of.

This year I drove about 3000 miles with it. A lot of fun to drive it, but along the way I found out that there were some technical issues. One of the main problems was the play in the engine linkage. Because of that the engine doesn’t idle very well and for the last months the engine stalled when I had to brake and down shift.

Besides being a member of this group, I am also a member of the Dutch Mercedes-Benz Old-timer Club. Two months ago that club organized a so called technical day at the specialized MB classic car workshop Van Dijk. I have read that our members of the board Cees Klumper and Peter van Es are clients of Van Dijk, so Van Dijk must be an interesting company  ;)
On this technical day a small group of ten club members got a tour through their workshop and their mechanic told us enthusiastically about the ins and outs of the Pagoda. He works only on Pagoda’s for 11 years now.

Before putting my car in winter storage, I thought it would be wise to give it a service at Van Dijk’s. Together with their mechanic a I made a test drive with my car. After that he put it on the ramp and together we made a tour around and under the car. We spent at least two hours. I told him about the technical problems I had found. But besides that he found some more… a lot more…  :'(

It turned out that the car had been lacking much maintenance in its past. He wrote down a list with problems and it could hardly fit on one sheet of paper. I could see with my own eyes that he wasn’t making it up. Particularly the suspension, steering and brakes needed attention. Most of the rubber parts were worn or decayed.

For me of course, it was a huge disappointment. I thought the car was in better shape. But with such old cars you will always have surprises. Well, he started the job and took care of all the issues on the list. But along the way he found even more problems, mainly in the braking system.

Here is a list of the major parts that are replaced or restored:

-   Engine linkage, all ball sockets replaced and linkage adjusted
-   Both clutch cylinders replaced, the old ones were both leaking
-   Front suspension restored, new kingpin bushes, all rubber parts replaced, new front springs and shocks, new rubber engine mounts
-   Four new brake discs and pads
-   New rear brake calipers, brake booster and master brake cylinder and some brake lines
-   Complete rebuild of the steering box, because there was excessive play in the steering
-   Adjustment of the 123ignition I had placed earlier, there was an extended spring missing underneath the distributer.
-   New red coil
-   New rubber hoses for brakes, clutch, gas tank / fuel pump, vacuum hose brake booster
-   New flex disc between the drive shafts. The old one was worn and torn and hanging by a few nylon threads. A miracle that I could drive with this old one.
-   New timing chain. This chain was never replaced before.
-   And many other minor technical issues
-   70 (!) hours of labor

You can imagine that I didn’t expect that this much work had to be done. Even the mechanic didn’t expected this, despite his experience with these cars. That was because the car is looking good and I had it serviced half a year ago by another well-known specialized MB workshop. But it turns out that they didn’t do much to it and they certainly didn’t tell me what the car needed.

The positive side of the story is that I know now the car has never been in a major accident. Everything is very good aligned. The mechanic told me that after the rebuild of the suspension the parts fitted perfectly together. If the car had been damaged this wouldn’t be the case. Another company which did the alignment of the suspension, confirms this.

Because I don’t have the paper history of the car, I can’t tell for sure if the mileage is correct. But according the mechanic there are several clues that the engine is in pretty good shape, although it has never been rebuild. After his adjusting, the engine is running smoothly and is much more quieter. That is because there no or just a little play in the fuel injection pump: every cylinder gets the same amount of fuel and this means that  the engine is quieter and runs smoothly. If this pump is worn, it often means that the car has run many miles.

Even though I can’t tell you how much pain I feel in my wallet right now, I am glad I brought the car to Van Dijk’s. If I wanted an inexpensive and trouble-free convertible, I should have bought a Mazda MX-5 or something like that. But I wouldn’t  think of exchanging my SL for an MX-5.

 When I drove it back home, it felt like another car. No play in the steering anymore and hardly any engine noise (in comparison with the old situation). Also the suspension is a big difference. It feels more precise and comfortable. Because of the bad weather I can’t drive it for the coming months.  I can’t wait for the spring.
Thinking of the current financial crisis most people keep their wallets closed, which is of course unfavorable for the economy. But at least they can’t blame me for not spending enough money  ;D

Well, it turns out to be a long post, but I wanted to share it with you. I am very curious about your maintenance experiences. Most posts in this forum are about the jobs people do on their cars themselves. But I would like to know how many of you leave it to professionals. I have a technical background, but this kind of work I couldn’t have done by myself. Perhaps if I had the tools and the workspace I would have tried. But a professional mechanic can see better if parts are mounted correctly or not at all. In my case there were several imitation parts mounted in the engine bay that the mechanic never had seen before! I would have never found that out myself.

Martijn
« Last Edit: December 21, 2008, 14:57:24 by Martijn »
Martijn

1967 250 SL - 4-speed manual - dark blue 332

glenn

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Re: A little maintenance?
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2008, 18:10:46 »
Hi, Very interesting story!   One thing I might add is to check for the cylindrical rubber washer above the oil filter- no washer, no filtration.

scoot

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Re: A little maintenance?
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2008, 18:16:43 »
The only part of the repairs that surprises me is the steering box rebuild -- usually the slop is the rotted bushings in the linkage.   I'm sure it feels really good to have the repairs done (even if it hurts the wallet).  Look on the bright side - you didn't need to have your injector pump rebuilt!
Scott Allen
'67 250 SL (early)
Altadena, California

Martijn

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Re: A little maintenance?
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2008, 19:08:09 »
Glenn: thanks for the tip. The oil filter is also replaced by Van Dijk. They said it wasn't replaced in a long time. There was a thick, black sludge on the bottom of the oil filter housing. In fact they replaced all filters you could find in a Pagoda, all of them were in a bad shape. Also the small filter on the fuel injection pump. This filter has probably never been replaced, it was all clogged up.

Scoot: the major cause of the play in the steering turned out to be the loose universal joint above the steering box. Because the steering box had to come out of the car in order to find the cause of the play, we discussed to do a rebuild now the box was out anyway. Considering the (bad?) technical shape of the car we thought it was a good decision. Van Dijk is one of the few companies in Europe that can do a steering box rebuild. They have made special tools to do it. It almost seems I am a salesman for them  :D You're right, I am glad I didn't have to rebuild my injection pump. Not yet, anyway.

You can't believe the amount of old junk that came out of my car. They had two full crates with my old parts. Unbelievable that I drove this season with that scrap metal.

Martijn
Martijn

1967 250 SL - 4-speed manual - dark blue 332

J. Huber

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Re: A little maintenance?
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2008, 19:15:24 »
Hey Martijn, now I guess you are officially "in the club!"...

One of the things I think of when I see people browsing and searching for the "perfect Pagoda" is that the wallet doesn't close-up for long even when they find a gem. The fact is these are cars -- with lots of parts that wear out and or need maintenance. So when I see the mantra "buy the best Pagoda you can afford" -- it doesn't mean just that lump sum up front. When you figure 70-100 an hour for any work on the car, it is an ongoing cost to own our cars. And as in your case (and many others) even a seemingly nice car will need some attention before long.

Having said that, I think one reason this site is so enamoring is that it can take the mystery (read fear) out of many maintenance items that you might otherwise farm out. Never hesitate to ask even the most basic how-to's here -- many benefit from the knowledge. In my case, I have clearly evolved from someone who takes the car in for everything -- to someone who can discern what is do-able at home and what is wisely handed off to the professional. I have saved money for sure. Moreover, with a little knowledge of the problem and the parts that are involved, even if you do take it in -- you can converse with the mechanic a little more confidently.

At a minimum, I think just about anyone here could save money by:

Checking all fluids & adding whatnot
Changing your own oil and filter
Changing your own fuel and air filter
Adjusting linkage if needed
Checking and changing IP oil
Replacing red coil and ballast if needed
Most every bulb
Most every exterior rubber seal that is worn
Lubing most of the car

Plugs and points and timing (even I swung this one)
 
And to save more money (except for bandaids and aspirin) one could:
Remove any of the dash instruments for service or maintenance
Adjust innerds of the doors and doorglass if needed

Now, I farm out things related to brakes, coolant changes, and anything under the valve cover. Others are more brave than I!


« Last Edit: December 21, 2008, 19:18:28 by J. Huber »
James
63 230SL

Martijn

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Re: A little maintenance?
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2008, 19:51:48 »
Hello James,

Thank you for your kind words. I think you're right, I could have done some of the jobs myself. Perhaps in the future I will do that, with some help from the group obviously.
Half a year ago I had some trouble with the water pump. The bearings were worn, so I had to replace it. It was a first for me, but it was also very rewarding (see http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=8756.0).

I agree with you that a lot of people underestimate the ongoing cost of our cars. I did too. Most of the maintenance that has been done in the last few weeks is not coming back anytime soon (hopefully). But there will be something else of course.

The thing is that I didn't plan to farm out all these jobs at this one time. But it went a bit out of control. I intended that they would do only a main service and the adjustment of the engine and the linkage, but I was wrong. There were days that the mechanic called me several times a day with new problems he found. I am glad that a professional has done a major check up on my car. Now I know what I have. I know what the good parts of the car are and also the things that need some attention in the future.

Martijn
Martijn

1967 250 SL - 4-speed manual - dark blue 332

scoot

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Re: A little maintenance?
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2008, 20:04:51 »
Scoot: the major cause of the play in the steering turned out to be the loose universal joint above the steering box. Because the steering box had to come out of the car in order to find the cause of the play, we discussed to do a rebuild now the box was out anyway. Considering the (bad?) technical shape of the car we thought it was a good decision. Van Dijk is one of the few companies in Europe that can do a steering box rebuild. They have made special tools to do it.
Yes, the universal joint above the steering box is actually I think the bushing to which I referred.  They are generally horrible, but they can be diagnoised without taking out the steering box.  If you take the shroud off of the steer column inside the car where it meets the floor, you can actually see the bushings (or lack of busings.  Bottom line - if the steering wheel turns but the shaft that actually goes into the steering box doesn't turn, it's the bushings.  I'm surprised he indicated that the box had to come out to find the source of the play -- it doesn't.    But whatever, as long as you are happy and you got a bunch of stuff rebuilt, you should be in great shape for a long time.    Glad you got your car fixed up nice!
Scott Allen
'67 250 SL (early)
Altadena, California

Martijn

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Re: A little maintenance?
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2008, 20:21:00 »
Hi Scoot,

I think you're right. In retrospect it probably was not necessary to do a steering box rebuild, but now I don't have to worry about this part for a long time  ;)
The mechanic told me that the universal joint fell on the floor when he took out the steering box. Now, that's loose!

Martijn
Martijn

1967 250 SL - 4-speed manual - dark blue 332

Peter van Es

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Re: A little maintenance?
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2008, 21:36:08 »
Martijn,

if it's any consolation, your list is very similar to my list.... I had my Pagoda fixed over a year ago after driving it for about 6 (including some tough rallies). But as James said, these cars have many parts that have been used for 30-40 years, and some may just wear out at any time.

My long relationship with van Dijk started with a busted flex disk (hear hear)... and since they are the garage closest to my house, I brought the car to them. They fixed it whilst I waited, as I needed to drive to the UK Pagoda SL event a couple of days later. I agreed to let them do a once over on my car later that year as well.

Very similar list to yours, but nothing on the brakes... I had those checked and fixed, brake lines replaced before I did the Winter Trial rally in 2004. Brakes are pretty essential on a car in a rally... and I should know, after one downhill stretch with 2,5 tonnes of Bentley 4,5ltr breathing on my tail with little drum brakes, mine were glowing red and smoking when we got to the bottom of that mountain.

Anyway, last year van Dijk did all suspension, king pins, hoses, rubber mounts etc on my car, as well as the 123 ignition. All shocks and springs were replaced. Indeed it was like driving away a new car.

The front springs however were not original Benz stuff, and at the end of the year my nose started drooping, so this year I got new MB springs installed. Master Brake Cylinder was leaking, so got replaced. Then had a rebuilt injection pump installed... which is great. And finally some cosmetic stuff (rev counter cleaned, speedo overhauled and converted to km/hr). Since my bumper overriders are off (got Hella Beams in there), my reflectors have been removed, holes filled in and painted over, and the emissions stuff is gone, mine is almost a real European Pagoda, but with American heritage!

So Martijn, do join the club... we have a very similar list. And we really ought to get together some time to check how our respective cars drive... that's an interesting experience too! 

Peter

(ps: Frank van Dijk said that my car was in the shop when they had the most recent Technical day for the MBVC... so perhaps you've seen it there!)
« Last Edit: December 21, 2008, 21:38:40 by vanesp »
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rogerh113

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Re: A little maintenance?
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2008, 12:12:40 »
At least it turns out that the Pagoda is a car you can enjoy!! 

Home maintenance is really not so difficult - I would certainly get the big blue book (maintenance manual) and the Haynes manual is also very good (and for some things more clear).  Start with some of the simpler items mentioned above.  Doing these things actually gets you closer to your car, and sometimes you can catch things before they become a big problem.

One additional set of maintenance activities that is VERY IMPORTANT is periodic bleeding of the brakes and clutch (every 2 to 3 years).  This will very much prolong the life of the brake cylinders, brake calipers, clutch master, clutch slave, and keep the lines clear.  It is quite easy to do and takes very little time.  Replacement of the brake and clutch systems can be quite expensive (as I am sure that you know by now).

Regards -- Roger
1966 230SL black 4 speed (250 low compression engine)

Martijn

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Re: A little maintenance?
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2008, 18:04:56 »
Hi Peter,

Your list indeed looks very similar to mine. I see you also did your rear springs and shocks. I have put that off until next year, because they were not in the same bad shape as the front springs. The list with other jobs was long enough already for this year.

Van Dijk advised me to buy the original MB front springs, because they had some bad experiences in the past with the soft non-original springs. It looks like you are one of customers they were talking about.
So I bought the original springs and Bilstein shocks. I was afraid that the front of the car would be higher than the rear, because of these new springs and shocks. Fortunately that was not the case, they have done a perfect job.

A good idea to meet someday. Perhaps on a sunny day next spring, after all we are almost neighbours... I live in Mijdrecht and you live in Hilversum, if I understand correctly. Nice to meet fellow Pagoda enthusiasts.

The Technical day for the MBVC was October 25th. However, due to the great interest among the MBVC members they had organized three Saturdays at Van Dijk's. I joined the first one. That day the featured car was a white Pagoda. I am not sure if your car was there that day. You have a blue SL, right?
Last weekend I have received the December issue of the "Zilverster", the club magazine of MBVC. There was an article about these Technical days and in one of the pictures you can see your car, I believe. At least the car has a Pagoda SL Group decal attached to the windscreen, so this must be the one! See attached picture. I don't know if you are also a MBVC member, but if not, I could send you a scan of the article.

Martijn
« Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 19:38:42 by Martijn »
Martijn

1967 250 SL - 4-speed manual - dark blue 332

Martijn

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Re: A little maintenance?
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2008, 18:52:02 »
One additional set of maintenance activities that is VERY IMPORTANT is periodic bleeding of the brakes and clutch (every 2 to 3 years).  This will very much prolong the life of the brake cylinders, brake calipers, clutch master, clutch slave, and keep the lines clear.  It is quite easy to do and takes very little time.  Replacement of the brake and clutch systems can be quite expensive (as I am sure that you know by now).

Roger,

My mechanic advised me to change the brake fluid even once a year. Just as you said, to save the expensive parts of the brake system and for your own safety, of course.
In my car this has not been done for a very long time, the fluid was almost black. It should be transparent, like white wine. Likely this was the reason why many parts of the brake system had to be replaced. Each caliper has two pistons. In one rear caliper one piston was stuck and could not be released. You could see that it was stuck for a long time, because only one brake pad was worn. Now I have two new rear brake calipers.

Martijn
« Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 18:53:42 by Martijn »
Martijn

1967 250 SL - 4-speed manual - dark blue 332

Peter van Es

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Re: A little maintenance?
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2008, 19:11:29 »

Last weekend I have received the December issue of the "Zilverster", the club magazine of MBVC. There was an article about these Technical days and in one of the pictures you can see your car, I believe. At least the car has a Pagoda SL Group decal attached to the windscreen, so this must be the one! See attached picture. I don't know if you are also a MBVC member, but if not, I could send you a scan of the article.

Martijn


That's my car. indeed. And I am an MBVC member (quite well known, actually) but I only got the article today!

Peter
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rogerh113

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Re: A little maintenance?
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2008, 02:49:50 »
Once a year might be a bit often, but better than not at all.  It is really quite easy and inexpensive (fluid).  I would highly recommend doing some work yourself - it really does allow you to 'bond' with your car and provides the best service you can get (because no one cares more than you do).  I think that when you complete your first brake bleed (maybe an hour if you take your time), you will think how easy and satisfying it was!!  Pay attention to the clutch, because if you go dry in the reservoir it is a LOT of work to recover from (just keep the reservoir topped up frequently when bleeding)

Regards -- Roger
1966 230SL black 4 speed (250 low compression engine)

J. Huber

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Re: A little maintenance?
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2008, 03:24:32 »
Roger, would you or any others here be willing to give a play-by-play of how to bleed the brakes? And if it is do-able, how about changing the hoses. Those would be two more home-base projects I'd love to learn.  I have the drums -- don't know if that makes a difference. And as far as fluid, my mechanic uses ATE SL Dot 4 I believe. What do you all use?
James
63 230SL

rogerh113

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Re: A little maintenance?
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2008, 08:24:35 »
I guess I could help if need be - not sure if I am the most qualified....  There may also be something already on the WIKI. 

Changing the hoses is very little additional work when you are going to do a bleed anyways (and I also have the rear drums).  This is, of course, prefaced on no other issues coming up (primarily, in this case, that the hard line connector is not seized/rusted to the hose end). 

Perhaps you could look at the WIKI and see if there is already something??

Regards -- Roger
1966 230SL black 4 speed (250 low compression engine)

J. Huber

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Re: A little maintenance?
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2008, 16:01:22 »
Fair enough Roger, I'll take a look at the wiki. I didn't mean to put you on the spot either! I just wonder if a Brake Tour might be helpful. Even if one doesn't do the job, seeing how it all works is enlightening.
James
63 230SL

Peter van Es

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Re: A little maintenance?
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2008, 16:08:59 »
There isn't much in the Technical Manual yet, but there are some excellent discussions and instructions including home grown devices (http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=3784.0). Search is your friend... use the search function at the top of the page and you'll find lots of references! Remember, this Search function is much better than the old one!

If you then collate all that material in a single place, you have a great start to the Technical Manual section on Bleeding the Brakes!

Peter
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psmith

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Re: A little maintenance?
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2008, 21:28:41 »
Brakes are my winter project and I have been adding bits and pieces to the TM while I go.  But I haven't got to bleeding yet.  I don't mind putting it together if you can check it for me.  Roger, do you use the two person traditional method, or do you have a brake bleeder?

rogerh113

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Re: A little maintenance?
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2008, 04:01:01 »
I use the two person method (my wife gets drafted, but she gets to operate the pedal rather than do the dirty work !!)  No problem about putting me on the spot - I don't wilt easily.  I think that info on brake (and clutch) bleeding is important and easy, so I would be happy to help if I can.  The info here is a great resource and worth supporting.

Regards -- Roger
1966 230SL black 4 speed (250 low compression engine)

Peter van Es

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Re: A little maintenance?
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2008, 08:03:43 »
Well the Technical Manual Wiki makes it easy for you to collaborate on this project, so I'm looking forward to your contributions and photographs...

Peter
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Bonanza

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Re: A little maintenance?
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2010, 22:00:29 »
I was given a 66 230SL as a gift by my father. I soon realized that the car was in need of a great deal of maintenance. In the first month I replaced the brake booster,master cylinder, rear brake cylinders,fuel tank sender and left and right tie rod assemblies. Not to mention many hours of wrenching and head scratching. Its not perfect but it gets better every time I work on it. What a wonderfull pass time and hobby. And the better it gets the more I honor my father. Remember  Use Only DOT5 !!

ja17

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Re: A little maintenance?
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2010, 04:30:58 »
Hello guys,

Very interesting thread.  One thing is for certain, when fixed correctly these cars will stay fixed and are durable and dependable. Money spent with  good eperienced shops is money well spent.

Happy Motoring!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Ulf

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Re: A little maintenance?
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2010, 09:31:51 »
If it is any consolation, it's much more fun and rewarding to spend money on a timeless masterpiece that just losing them on the heavy depreciation that new cars suffer from. Spending money might be agonizing at times, but it should be seen as an investment rather than an expense - or at least that is what I try to tell myself every time I pay a bill for work on my car ;-)

Ulf
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