Author Topic: Antifreeze  (Read 7574 times)

tel76

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Antifreeze
« on: December 12, 2010, 08:53:58 »
I was reading a letter in a motoring magazine,the person was querying which antefreeze he should use in his classic car,he says he has always used  the most expensive and it was orange in colour.Every motor factor he had been to recommended it for his cars.
He went to Halfords and asked the assistant to query this with there technical department,they later phoned him back to say,Do not use the orange antefreeze as it will strip the alloys out of lead solder and bushes and is only meant for modern cars.
So in older cars where lead,lead solder.lead alloy bushes,and graphite/lead water pump rope is used avoid using Organic Acid Technology Fluids (OAT) - usually orange.
Another one to avoid is the Hybrid Organic Acid Technology (HOAT) antefreeze. Daimler/Chrysler is orange and the Ford is yellow.
Also steer clear of Nitrate Organic Acid Technology - it is an OAT with added nitrates.
The one to use in many older cars is the older Inorganic Additive Technology (IAT) antefreeze. This Ethylene Glycol based material is usually coloured blue and is often referred to as Conventionally Inhibited, It only has a two year in car life.
There is a more environmentally friendly one available if you require, it is a Propylene Glycol product called Fernox Alpha 11.
I hope members find the above useful and if we have any chemists among us your comments would be appreciated.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2010, 00:57:07 by 280SL71 »
Eric

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Re: Antefreeze
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2010, 10:51:54 »
Useful to know, thanks Eric.
Larry Hall (Gnuface)
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2005 C230
1970 280SL

ja17

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Re: Antefreeze
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2010, 14:51:42 »
Hello,

The factory anti-freeze supplied by Daimler-Benz is specially formulated for Mercedes-Benz engines by a well known major anti-freeze manufacturer. Yes, you must request the one for the earlier engines. PH levels in new anti-freeze varies depending on the application and manufacturer.

Brands other than those made for Daimler-Benz can be used but do not have the exact formulation as the D-B brand.  Experts say that when using an "other" brand change more often. PH levels change over time causing the coolant to become corrosive even though "freeze protection" stays permanant. As the coolant becomes corrosive, the coolant slowly eats away at metal engine parts. Many of you may have noticed the white powder build up around water hose connections on your engines...this is from corrosive coolant.

PH level can be checked, but it is easiest just to change the coolant and add new anti-freeze at frequent intervals. Nuetral PH level is "7".
Your coolant PH should be between 7and 8.    The Daimler-Benz factory coolant is about $5.00 US more a gallon than standard anti-freeze here at our local dealer.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

mdsalemi

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Re: Antefreeze
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2010, 16:26:22 »
There is certainly no harm and a lot of peace of mind in using the factory recommended anti-freeze.  In MB's case, it is the MB fluid, in other manufacturer's cases it could be a specific brand and formulation.

It does help to know a bit of the chemistry involved in laymen's terms however.

There are two basic kinds of antifreeze: EG and PG.  The EG is toxic; the PG is less so, and advertised as environmentally friendly, and generally won't kill a dog that laps up a puddle of this sweet-smelling and tasting stuff that may appear on a driveway or in a garage.  EG is Ethylene Glycol, and PG is propylene glycol.

Both antifreeze formulations are less efficient than plain water at heat transfer.  The EG is better than PG.  Of course like the good tasting food that is bad for you, the safest and most environmentally friendly antifreeze isn't as good functionally as the bad stuff.  In a modern car, however, you'd never know the difference; as long as they engineer enough cooling capacity, you are fine.  (Ten years ago, I remember idling in my Ford Explorer, outside temperature was over 100 degrees F; we had the a/c on full blast.  We sat idling for an hour and the temp gauge didn't budge off the Normal part of the dial.  That's an engineered, modern cooling system!)

In our northern climes, you have to mix the antifreeze with water, generally to what the lowest temp might be.  If you live in Duluth, Minnesota you would need a different mix than Washington DC.  If concerned with water quality, buy the premix, generally 50/50.

All the formulations contain "inhibitors" which is a fancy name for chemicals designed to protect the metals and seals in the engine and cooling system.  I don't know what makes a Mercedes engine much different than any other--you need to protect steel, iron, brass, copper, and aluminum.  Like so many other formulated products everyone claims some kind of proprietary edge.

Automotive antifreeze is delivered slightly "basic" (Ph > 7) because as it ages (inhibitors losing effectiveness) it becomes acidic (pH < 7).  As Joe notes, that's when the corrosion starts.  Follow the recommended replacement cycle and you will not encounter corrosion regardless of what major brand you might use.  The antifreeze does not wear out; it is the inhibitors.

I have a heated driveway at home; the system contains 31 gallons of 40% concentration EG "heat transfer fluid".  Many systems around here (all car wash properties have heated concrete bays) use automotive antifreeze because it is significantly less costly than "heat transfer fluid".  I was tempted to use automotive as well.  When I inquired with the manufacturer, Kost USA (who private labels many automotive formulations) I received an education on the topic which I'm sharing here.  In my application, you don't EVER replace the fluid, so it is designed for one lifetime fill.  Because of that, the inhibitors are in far greater concentration.  Aluminum is rarely used in these systems, so there is no protection for that, and the inhibitors are designed for the materials used in boilers.  Every 2 years, you drain 4 oz; send it to the manufacturer and they do an analysis and send you back a package of chemical inhibitors designed to bring your old fluid up to new specs.  When I owned my car wash, we had a system with about 100 gallons of heat transfer fluid in it.  The cost of this stuff is about twice that of automotive.

Regularly changing the coolant, just like your oil and other engine fluids ensures a long life.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

Iconic

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Re: Antefreeze
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2010, 19:29:35 »
Yes, you must request the one for the earlier engines.

Joe,
Is the one for earlier engines part number Q-1-03-0002?
Thank you,
Mark
1970 280 SL Automatic, USA version, Grey-Blue (906G/906G), Blue leather (245)
1968 SS396 Camaro Convertible (owned since 1977 -- my first car :D)
1984 Porsche Euro Carrera coupe, LSD, SlateBlueMet/Blue
1998 BMW M-Rdstr Estoril Blue
1970 280 SL Automatic, Anthracite Grey-173G, Red Interior-132 - sold

ja17

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Re: Antefreeze
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2010, 04:42:54 »
Hello Mark,

Yes I believe that is the correct number.  Double check with the parts guy just to make sure.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

ja17

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Re: Antefreeze
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2010, 05:34:02 »
Hello,

The Technical Director of the Mercedes-Benz Club of America, George Murphy, has researched the subject in depth. His articles* in "The Star Magazine" go into the chemistry, the exact formulations, and different PH levels of differnt brands of Anti-freeze and much more. He explains that different brands of anti-freeze vary in PH value quite a bit, right out of the container. MB anti-freeze iis a Ph level of 6.0 right out of the container and ends up at 7.0 after it is mixed with water.  "Parts Master" brand from Advance Auto Parts is a Ph level of 10.0 out of the container!

Using distilled water with the MB anti-freeze is also best.

*Sept./ Nov. "The StaR" magazine.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

mdsalemi

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Re: Antefreeze
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2010, 13:26:38 »
In many postings and queries in many forums and websites over the years there is a lot of discussion of antifreeze and Mercedes-Benz.

For as long as the stuff lasts in a properly maintained car, the cost should not be a make/break decision.

However as some of the postings point out, there is an offense to the sensibilities when a manufacturer insists that you use some consumable in their product without really giving a good or accurate reason, and that consumable is significantly more costly than other products.  For example, only HP ink cartridges in an HP printer.  Many people are offended at such stuff.  Considering that the most significant costs of anti-freeze are the glycol--there shouldn't be a big difference in costs.  All the other ingredients are present only in fractional amounts.  This is what rubs people the wrong way.  One of the "reasons" given, if you look hard, is that the MB cooling systems contain aluminum.  Gee.  My 1979 BMW was one of the first of the BMW's to move from a copper radiator to an aluminum-finned one with plastic tanks, ostensibly for weight reasons.  Aluminum can't be that uncommon in modern cooling systems, can it? ???  Don't a lot of cars have aluminum head and parts on them?  Tell me why specifically, there is something so different in MB engines that they need a proprietary (and thus expensive) blend of glycol.  Aluminum isn't it.  pH isn't it either--pH can be adjusted and the additives to do it are "inactive ingredients".

The contents of chemical blends are for the most part described in MSDS data sheets and most of these are availble easily--some on line.

Valvoline/Zerex G05 is listed as approved by/for Mercedes-Benz:

http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/Zerex_CoolantChart.pdf

This product is about $12/gallon.  Should be commonly available--for those that want an alternative on a modern MB.
 
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 18:05:57 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

thelews

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Re: Antefreeze
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2010, 14:39:44 »
It's what I use.
Enjoy some pictures at this link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8292359@N06/sets/72157603240571101/show/

John - Wisconsin
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual #1543
1961 190 SL 23K miles
1964 Porsche 356
1970 Porsche 911E
1991 BMW 318is
1966 Jaguar XKE
1971 Alfa Romeo GTV 1750

ja17

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Re: Antefreeze
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2010, 02:48:17 »
Yes, according to George, Valvoline manufactures the Daimler-Benz Brand antifreeze. The formulation is not exactly the same but close enough to be approved for use. More frequent change intervals may be needed to keep the ph level within specs.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

dseretakis

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Re: Antefreeze
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2010, 03:05:35 »
Michael, since we are kind of talking about carwashes here I'd like to ask you an off topic question. Is it true that during the winter it is not wise to use a DIY carwash as the water is recycled and may contain salt?

It does help to know a bit of the chemistry involved in laymen's terms however.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 18:45:50 by Peter van Es »

mdsalemi

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Re: Antefreeze
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2010, 12:46:38 »
Deseratakis,

Recycled water is NEVER used in a self serve car wash.  Well, my mother always told me "never say never" so let me qualify that.

Recycling water at a car wash is complex, tricky and expensive.  There are several processes to do it, and all of them have an "achilles heel".  For example, all can deal with oil in the water; some cannot deal with emulsified oil in the water (such as after "Gunk" use on an engine bay).  Others cannot deal with any silicones (think some waxes left on your car, or Armor-All).  When the systems get this stuff they shut-down and are costly to repair.  Adding to this a number of the public has no respect for car wash owners, so they'll go at 2AM and change their oil in the bay, or go and dump restaurant kitchen grease, concrete, sand, or anything else they want down your pits (drains) to get rid of and leave it to the owner to fix or deal with.  So, nearly no self-serve "spray washes" use recycled water.  It's too difficult and fresh water is less costly.  98.5% of my customers were wonderful.  1% crazy.  .5% dastardly and these I often went ballistic on and they never came back.  They spent $1.50 at my car wash, and I spent 2 hours cleaning up some dastardly deed they were trying to leave me.  Allow me my rants.

Now, TUNNEL washes (not self serve) are a different matter entirely.  Often they have a water recycling system, particularly newer washes.  HOWEVER--and this is a big however--this recycled water is used only for mixing with soap in the detergent part of the wash process.  That is a low pressure application.  The standard for recycled water is "5 micron" meaning particulates are filtered out to the 5 micron level.  The rinse is nearly always fresh water, and the final rinse is generally spot free (RO; reverse osmosis, mechanically distilled) water.

I designed, built and employed an "RO reject water recycling system" at my wash.  The RO process is not efficient--you generally waste one gallon of water for every gallon you make.  Using 100,000 gallons of water a month, I decided to be "green".  I collected this RO waste water and used it in the high pressure rinse on my automatic.  The only difference between it and "fresh" water was the mineral content was slightly higher--probably about 15 grain as opposed to the 7 grain tap water.  However, my 15 grain reject water was "twice as clean" as most well waters in many parts of the country.

So, that's a description of the processes in general.  No, there will be no salt in any of the water coming out of the wand at a self-serve bay.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 12:48:28 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

dseretakis

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Re: Antefreeze
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2010, 14:44:40 »
Thanks. That was very helpful!

mdsalemi

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Re: Adjusting pH--pretty easy.
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2010, 15:51:18 »
...on the topic of pH (power of hydrogen; measure of alkaline vs. acidic) adjustment.

It is very easy to do.  Look at the MSDS or ingredient list of antifreeze and you'll see easily how it is done.

The other day, I was putting in my eye drops; I'm on an eye drop called "Lumigan".  (Look it up if you choose.)

In the fine print of the ingredients are the following words: Sodium hydroxide and/or hydrochloric acid may be added to adjust pH.

In common vernacular, that's LYE and MURIATIC ACID.  YIKES! The former is used in drain cleaner, and the latter on your pool walls!   This, in a formulation FOR YOUR EYES!

Bottom line, it doesn't take a whole lot to adjust pH, even in your cooling system... :)
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV