Author Topic: K&K reproduction bumpers  (Read 9593 times)

scoot

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Altadena
  • Posts: 2355
K&K reproduction bumpers
« on: March 16, 2010, 19:35:36 »
Hi:

I've heard many horror stories about reproduction bumpers.  K&K, which has a good reputation and has reproduction bumpers for a reasonable price.  Has anybody tried them?  What did you think?  My car is a nice driver, not a show car.  I searched the forum for this topic so I apologize if it's been covered elsewhere.

Thanks
« Last Edit: March 16, 2010, 22:43:28 by scoot »
Scott Allen
'67 250 SL (early)
Altadena, California

mdsalemi

  • Pagoda SL Board
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, NC, Davidson
  • Posts: 7059
Re: K&K reproduction bumpers
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2010, 19:56:20 »
My experience with K&K is that THEY will tell you how the quality compares, and how the fit compares, too...so, instead of bantering about it here, who ever is interested should simply call them and talk to Cheryl or Tim about it.

They had two reproductions of things I needed in my restoration/repair: grill surrounds, and gas tanks.  Neither fit the quality standards at the time and they were the first to tell me--they don't oversell, and will be totally honest.  Both of these items are ungodly expensive.  They had the opportunity to sell these parts and chose not to.

When I say "bantering about it here" I am suggesting quite sincerely that the best assessment of the fit between what you need, your budget, and what K&K sells will come from a pleasant discussion with them.  They will not try to sell something that won't work for you.  It may be the style of many salespeople; not K&K.

Keep in mind that unless you are trying one of those bargain basement, "Tijuana" chrome jobs, any rechromed and properly repaired bumper done by professionals will most likely far exceed OEM standards--which was production chrome.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2010, 22:25:40 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

scoot

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Altadena
  • Posts: 2355
Re: K&K reproduction bumpers
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2010, 23:07:14 »
My experience with K&K is that THEY will tell you how the quality compares, and how the fit compares, too...so, instead of bantering about it here, who ever is interested should simply call them and talk to Cheryl or Tim about it.

They had two reproductions of things I needed in my restoration/repair: grill surrounds, and gas tanks.  Neither fit the quality standards at the time and they were the first to tell me--they don't oversell, and will be totally honest.  Both of these items are ungodly expensive.  They had the opportunity to sell these parts and chose not to.

When I say "bantering about it here" I am suggesting quite sincerely that the best assessment of the fit between what you need, your budget, and what K&K sells will come from a pleasant discussion with them.  They will not try to sell something that won't work for you.  It may be the style of many salespeople; not K&K.

Keep in mind that unless you are trying one of those bargain basement, "Tijuana" chrome jobs, any rechromed and properly repaired bumper done by professionals will most likely far exceed OEM standards--which was production chrome.
I'll talk with K&K and that will provide one datapoint.  What I'm looking for is whether or not _anyone_ on the forum has had either a positive or negative experience with reproduction bumpers, K&K or other. 

As far as re-chroming goes, I have been unable to get recommendations from the forum in the past for places that people have used for rechroming.  All that has come from such postings is either praise or bashing of "Bumper Boys" or something like that.   I very much need a "reasonable" rechrome for my grill.  Not show quality but nice.  Again, recommendations for rechroming (bumpers and/or grills) for people who do not have Jay Leno's budget would be much appreciated.
Scott Allen
'67 250 SL (early)
Altadena, California

bpossel

  • Guest
Re: K&K reproduction bumpers
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2010, 23:35:12 »
Scoot.

I had my bumpers rechromed when I restored my car.  I wasnt happy with them and had some issues that some members may recall.
I have direct experience with the K&K bumpers. I purchased a set of front bumpers from them.  They are very heavy steel with chrome, excellent chrome quality.  They are done in Hungry and are very nice!
They are by no means comparable to the "after market" bumpers that we've seen on eBay and other sites (those are stainless).  The K&K bumpers are really very nice! As Mike states, call Cheryl or Tim.  That's what I did.  They were frank and very honest.  Nice people!
Bob
« Last Edit: March 16, 2010, 23:52:41 by bpossel »

mdsalemi

  • Pagoda SL Board
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, NC, Davidson
  • Posts: 7059
Re: K&K reproduction bumpers
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2010, 13:15:56 »
Scott (Scoot),

If you take some time and visit a place that rechromes automotive parts like bumpers, you'll understand why a request for "good but not great" (my words) is not realistic policy to adapt.  I used three different chrome platers in my restoration, and one of them was local.  I spent some time with them, saw their work, saw their equipment and employees and got an appreciation for the entire process by watching it being done.  This was at B&L Plating in Warren MI. http://www.blplating.com  They seem to be focused today on prototype plating for auto show cars and mock ups, but at the time I went to them, their web page and shop was full of parts from hot rods and other kinds of personally owned (as opposed to company owned) vehicles.  B&L was the original production plater for the massive chrome bumpers on Freightliner semi trucks prior to Freightliner setting up their own plating line in Tennessee.  B&L did most of my interior chrome, and odds and ends neglected until the last minute.

There is a false rumor--totally false--that you can't do chrome (or cadmium or whatever) plating in California due to environmental regulations.  Nonsense.  In 2 minutes time I found these guys--how many can you find if you put your mind to it?  I also found a couple w/o websites.

http://www.stevesplating.com/i
http://www.californiaplating.com/
http://www.verneschromeplating.com/

When it comes to rechroming a bumper, a bumper is a bumper is a bumper.  It doesn't matter if it comes from a 1968 Mercedes, a 1965 Jaguar, or a 1957 Chevy.  It is mostly the size and condition that matter.  Most of these places LOVE to show before/after photos and many have showrooms, too.  It would be nice--and perfect for people trying to do elaborate things on limited budgets, if the entire decorative and restoration chrome business (that's what we are talking about) could categorize "quality", correlate that quality with "price", and put it on a menu scale of 1 to 10, with "10" being a Graves, and "1" being the guys in the garage in Mexico.  Go and see how the process is done, talk to the people that do the plating and you'll see why that this is impossible.  If you check 3, 4 places for chrome prices you'll probably find that they are ALL more than you want to spend.  Some tend to assign this to the category of "rip-off" or overcharging, but it is more accurately unrealisitic expectations.  "Bad" chrome is expensive.  "Good" chrome even more so.

Most places that do chrome plating have a certain quality standard based upon the equipment they have; the personnel they have to do the work; and their reputation.  You can't ask Bumper Boyz (just as an example) to "upgrade" their service to produce a bumper that will win at Pebble Beach.  Conversely, you can't ask Graves Plating in Alabama http://www.gravesplating.com/ to downgrade their quality to simply accomodate one's pricing needs.

There's another place in Warren, MI, that does chrome but actually specializes in the restoration of pot-metal castings http://www.fini-finish.com/  This place was a hoot.  The guy who owned it must have had many years of dealing with what became, to him, stupid and inane questions, such as "Why does it cost so much?" and "How do you do it?" and "Can I do this----" and whatever.  So, the guy PAINTED huge signs ALL over the outside of his building, with these "FAQ'S" about chrome plating and pot metal restoration.  All you had to do to have your questions answered was walk around the building and read!  Me?  I read all this stuff and went around the corner to B&L.  ;)

At the time I did my bumpers, the Canadian dollar was low, the US dollar high, and thus the exchange rate favorable.  It still cost over USD $1,000 to repair and rechrome ALL the bumper parts, and that was ten years ago.  I don't actually know who did the plating, but I hauled the bumper parts across the river to Windsor, ON, and took them to this hole in the wall shop called International Bumper Exchange, and this older Italian guy repaired the bumpers by hand using mallets, hammers, and a rubber table.  He preceded the repair by removing the chrome in a barrel of acid.  When he did his work, he sent the bumpers out to a place either in London or Toronto and they did the rechroming.  Took about 3-4 weeks.  My chrome is very nice on the bumpers, but is probably a step down from what I would have received at Graves or B&L.  I did not specify any thickness or anything--I assumed they knew what they were doing and they did come through.  Bumpers were repaired perfectly--all the little dents and dings were gone.  I believe it would have been at least $1,400 or more at Graves at that time.

bpossel gave you his experience with the bumpers from K&K.  I bet that Tim or Cheryl at K&K would even discuss technical issues on them if you so chose.

I believe their repro bumper parts (two parts front, two parts back) are about $250 each.  Do the math, make some calls,  and you'll see that it is unlikely you will be able to have your bumpers replated in a comparable quality for that.  Had such bumpers been available at that price, 10 years ago, I probably would have elected to buy them instead of rechrome mine.  But, the only source was OEM and they were a bit more costly.  In fact that little stainless steel strip that covers the joint between the front bumpers was about USD $100 at that time.  K&K makes a repro for half that today.  The OEM is now about $130.

Scoot/Scott--this is not my first posting on plating.  Every part on my car that had a chrome plating (or a cadmium plating) was either replated or replaced.  The restoration took some time and not all decisions were made at the same time, thus the use of different vendors.  Graves was the choice of the restorer; I had a lot of plating done at Graves, and at B&L.  Both were excellent.  You will need to send material out for a quote, however--but let me make it clear that these are simply two vendors.  There are dozens more all around the country that have a lot of experience and a lot of satisfied customers.

I bet Dan Caron (Dr. Benz) could speak to chrome plating in the London/Toronto area, too.  But there are enough places in your own backyard and enough demand in SoCal that you can have good work done locally.  I turned it into a fun excercise, and I'm sure you can too.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 12:10:50 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

66andBlue

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Solana Beach
  • Posts: 4735
Re: K&K reproduction bumpers
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2011, 23:19:40 »
Hello Scoot,
did you buy the bumpers from K&K?
Has anyone else bought these reproduction bumpers in the meantime?
How about those sold by the "Benzrestorer" (a member here), do they compare favorably with the OEM?
The bumpers on my 280SL have a few nicks and dents but no rust, so to repair and re-chrome or not, that is what I am pondering.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 23:25:02 by 66andBlue »
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

69280sl

  • Full Member
  • Gold
  • *****
  • USA, IL, Elk Grove
  • Posts: 568
Re: K&K reproduction bumpers
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2011, 03:26:54 »
I bought rear bumpers from another ebay vendor whose bumper description is the same as that of Benzrestorer. I suspect the manufacturer is the same. The ebay listing claimed German origin but because of the packaging and "quaint" spelling on the cartons I suspect China.

In any event, the guage of the metal is the same as MB, the fit was perfect and the polish is equal to MB. It remains to be seen if they will be as long lived as the MB bumpers, but at this time I'm happy.

Gus
Gus

68 280sl, signal red/ beige/black softtop. Car # 1084

Benz Dr.

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Canada, ON, Port Lambton
  • Posts: 7220
  • Benz Dr.
Re: K&K reproduction bumpers
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2011, 18:21:31 »
I've been a K&K dealer for over 22 years so I know the people who work there and talk to them almost daily.
The rear bumpers are good quality and for the price you can't beat them. You need near perfect condition parts from your own car to get down to a price for plating that would even come close. The actual plating doesn't cost that much, it's the labor to get your part ready for plating that costs.

The 280SL fuel tank is OK now. There was a problem with the filler neck being too short but that was corrected long ago. The grill surround is OEM only; the repro didn't fit right so they dropped it from their line of products.

 The cost of parts has been brought up lately. MB has their own way of doing things including pricing, much of which makes little or no sense. 300 and 400% raises in pricing all at one time is somewhat common on vintage parts. Once they have complete control of the sources the prices go up dramatically.
Some people say they deserve these high prices since they've kept these parts in stock for the last 50 years. That may be true in some cases but most of what we buy is recent production. They make a batch of parts as demand requires.

Which leads me to another consideration. Tim, at K&K, also makes parts in small batches as per demand. He made the dies and builds the parts or he has them done in Eastern Europe. Even with all these costs for start up he seems to be making money and can sell them for less. Even MB sells his parts.
 Most of his incentive to make these parts stems from his sense that the MB price is highly unreasonable and that they are getting greedy.
So my question is simple. How is it that a guy like Tim can make his own dies, design the program to stamp out parts, finance the whole thing on his own while doing it with limited funds, and still charge less than MB who's pockets are surely a bit deeper?

Buy where you want and from who you want, but my money is on the guys who actually supported our hobby long before  ' Johnny come lately ' arrived on the scene.  Tim would be right there at the top of the list in my opinion.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

knockmacool

  • Guest
Re: K&K reproduction bumpers
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2011, 19:25:32 »
So my question is simple. How is it that a guy like Tim can make his own dies, design the program to stamp out parts, finance the whole thing on his own while doing it with limited funds, and still charge less than MB who's pockets are surely a bit deeper?
MB is charging you for pensions, advertising, enterprise costs on a legacy product. Right or wrong, I don't know. MBAs own pricing, not MB enthusiasts. 

IXLR8

  • Guest
Re: K&K reproduction bumpers
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2011, 01:10:35 »
Hi--

I bought these "jewels" from the Harrington Group.

Stainless steel, painted light ivory inside, and extremely high quality.

http://groupharrington.com/en/part/140/mercedes-pagoda-w113-bumpers.html



Joe