Euro Style cars

[Rick007]

Ok forum members I might be going way at of line here , but I need get  something of my chest .

I see many cars for sale come by in various conditions , and I know California cars are ,due to there climate maybe the best choice , when you search for a solid car . And then I see restoration reports , with the photos to prove it , some go all the way .
Full body restorations .... E plating .. And so on . Massive budgets are being spend to get the car as original as possible . Every detail is taking care of .............

But what always surprises me ....Why that they install back those hideous side markers , bumper ( what's there name ) extensions , and silly looking headlights back ..   Never ever Mercedes designed these things , only because some laws forced them to .

Yes I know in some countries you must , but really those headlights .....??

No offense but really ....

[Raymond]

I agree with you on the side marker lights.  When they were mandated, for good safety reasons, manufacturers, including Mercedes, took the cheapest way out.  In 1968 they slapped them on the sides as reflectors, then added lights in 1969.  They didn't make them to flow into the design, they just took the statutes literally and stuck them on.  Every modern car has them now but on most they fit the design.  However, if you are restoring a car for originality, they belong on the '68 to '71 models.  I chose not to.

The bumper overriders or bumper guards are a practical consideration that in my case, saved the grille from some low-life idiot who did a bump and run in a parking lot.  The overrider was bent but the $4000 grille was spared. 

To me, the headlights are an overblown issue.  I prefer the US round lights with the small amber turn signals to the Euro lights that look like a tropical fish with eye disease.  You prefer the bulbous eyes that make the car look as though it's been crying and that's perfectly okay with me.  Really.  I don't mind that you don't get it.  Really.  I mean really.  It's like those folks who think that green paint is not good for a Pagoda.  Or those who think red is for overcompensation.  I disagree, but you have a right to your opinion.  Really you do.

I don't like cold herring but you can eat it daily if you like.    There's probably a forum for that.   

[Garry]

Hey Rick,

This is a great can of worms, and Ray as for green cars.  I like Kermit and my car.

But I agree if you want to stick with originality  then you need to have what the car was delivered with and that is the US or Euro depending on delivery point.

Its like the 5 speed argument, anyone that fits one that is not data carded is making a decision to not stick with originality but go with driving preference, same with the headlights and side marks, everyone is different in their preferred tastes.

[Raymond]

Garry,
Pleeeeeease understand that I was joking.  I love the look of a green car with congnac interior.  And there are few cars as stikingly pretty as a red one with whitewall tires.  I do like the Euro lenses on gray cars.  There's just something about that color that makes them blend for me.  But everyone has personal tastes.  I just wanted to tweak 007 a bit about his.

[Ulf]

US legislation didn't do the European cars many favors in the late 60's/early 70's neither in terms of design or driving pleasure - just think of the rubber-bumpered and de-tuned MGBs. But the effect on the Pagodas were - in my opinion - rather less extensive and much less intrusive than the treatment that the later R107's got. The US-style headlamps are not bad looking and even the much maligned overriders are not big and chunky like those on Spitfires, 911s, Fiat 124s etc...
Actually, it is a testimony to the basic safety and quality of the Pagodas that the changes were so relatively few and far apart in a time where lawmakers were beginning to be obsessed with safety and emissions - actually a complete ban on convertibles were discussed in those days...

:-)

Ulf

[Garry]

Ray there was no offence taken I was just using a bit of dry Aussie baiting.

The Jag XKE is a classic case of the more the manufacturer changed the car to meet the US regulations, the less the car kept to its original design brief and the later models have far less value than the earlier ones.  The changes to the Pagoda do not appear to have had the level of negative vibe than the Jag.

I actually think the over riders are not that bad and certainly provide some protection from bad drivers parking> I don't like the headlights but do like the small side markers of the Italian cars, pity the US did not get the same side lights.

Garry

[mdsalemi]

It should be noted that the manufacturers--all of them, US domestic included--were dragged kicking and screaming into compliance with many regulations made in the name of safety or emissions or both starting many years ago.  Laminated windscreens, safety glass, etc. predated emission controls and were not universal on the world's cars when they were mandated here.  Having been in a horrific crash in a 1968 MGC in 1975, I'm sure glad it had a laminated windscreen.  Of course, if it had not, you would not be reading this post as I probably would not have survived.  Lucky me and you!

There was a period of time when the manufacturers struggled to keep up, most likely because they really did not want to do what they were forced to do.  You can call that a lack of investment or engineering, or blame it on the [US] Feds; doesn't matter.

But look today at the safety in cars, and the fantastic engineering accomplishments that have resulted.  Advanced crush and crumple zones; airbags of many sizes, shapes and locations; integrated lights (as opposed to stick ons as noted in this thread); all have contributed to a safer driving experience in modern cars from all manufacturers.  Engine emissions are wildly lower than the 1960's.

Dealing with the vagaries of the market is daunting for the manufacturers--trust me, I'm in the thick of it here.  When the first Ford we bought here was offered with airbags in 1987 (optional, due to federal mandate) Ford couldn't sell them at all--and in fact at one point the airbag Tempo was lower in cost than the non-airbag version just to dump them!  Nobody wanted them, and they certainly did not want to pay "extra" for them.

Today, of course, USA federal mandate aside, a manufacturer could not sell a mainstream product without multiple airbags.  I like Ulf's comment about how little Mercedes actually had to change things--they have always been on a path of safety.

Now, whether or not to add/remove side markers or reflectors on your Pagoda, or bumper overriders, is purely a matter of personal taste.  And, let us not blame the USA for every detail change.  Many countries have their own mandated regulations for cars.  Think the Italian side markers, or that French contraption on David Pease's car that shuts off the car if it rolls, or rear fog lamps...even today there are plenty of regulations around the world that manufacturers must deal with.

[Rick007]

Yes and maybe you should eat cold herring every day .....mite safe you from a heart condition

No serious , it's not that I hate the looks , I love the pagoda in any combination , for it's looks !!  I've got several classic cars and some drive terrible but they were the cars to have 40 ..50 years ago . I mean i would never restore a 80s mass produced car because it drives so good ....
And  I know legislation prohibits you to get rid of these add ons ,   I also know sometimes it's good to have bumperoverriders and yes side markers do enhance safety but these were definitely not in the original design . Drive a modern car then . Then you have All the safety features you want . Don't tell me you bought the pagoda for it's great driving capability and comfort , or maybe it's practicality ?
I can tell you now that every modern  Korean car drives better with better comfort and with a great value for money ! if your only looking for transportation that is .

We all love the Mercedes B sl for it's looks and timeless charm ....be honest .

Maybe we  should ask Paul Braq what he thinks of the add ons ....... Wonder what he would say .








 Although I must admit I installed seat belts , and they keep telling me

[mdsalemi]

Rick, if you hate the looks of mandated safety things on your car, remove them!  Who is to know, and who is to care, but you?  Really, do you think the safety police will do a detailed check of what was on your car at the time of manufacture?  No.  I added markers instead of reflectors, 3-point seat belts, and at the cost of today's bumpers or refinishing, I'm glad I have the over riders.  But nobody looked or cared upon getting a title or registration.  Call it a little extra insurance on my part at the expense of design purity.

I can guess what M. Bracq would think.  Paul Bracq is a man of exquisite taste and refinement.  He would not want to see, IMHO, anything that wasn't well thought out and integrated as part of the design.  If he were given the challenge of designing tail lamps with integral side markers, for example, they would be beautiful.  Stickiing on reflectors or markers not integral to the overall design?  Abhorrent is my guess.  Some of the articles on him in the past (Bimmer, Mercedes Enthusiast, etc.) have touched on these topics; seek them out.

While I would not personally choose to drive a Korean car, I'll have to agree they probably offer a good ride for the money, or so I read.  So does a late model Ford or Chevy.

[scoot]

It seems like the "euro look" is kind of a scam in some instances.   I prefer the "earlier" look with respect to bumpers, sidelights, mirrors, etc.  I would also like ABS brakes and airbags, but that isn't going to happen in the Pagoda.  The real debate would be about the euro headlights.  The 113 Euro optics and reflectors are probably not nearly as good as the 7" round H4 Hella/Bosch replacements that you can put into your US headlight unit.  It's just if you like the appearance. 

The "euro" thing that I totally don't understand is the desire for people to put on Euro corners on W123, W124, ...  cars that are almost exactly the same as the "US" version except for lacking the side reflector!  "Let's make the car Euro by removing the side reflector that is integrated into the corner light and is otherwise not noticable" ? 

As for Euro bumpers on later cars - mixed bag of tricks.  Some of the US implementation of 5 MPH bumpers is dreadful, other implentations are good.  Either way, the US bumper is hands-down a much better bumper which will result in much less bodywork, and in the case of the 300TD, much fewer replaced rear corner tail lights...    I have 5 euro W123 bumpers for sale including a wagon rear bumper.  If you haven't experienced one, you would be amazed at how light-weight and flimsy they are.  It's more like a trim piece than a bumper...