HELP: coolant leak & v-belts nightmare!!!!!

[blairwag]

Hi folks, I'm back under the hood, unfortunately and once again I need to tap into the wealth of knowledge and experience of this group.

Short version:
While working on a coolant leak problem, I removed the A/C system from the car. But, now I realize the 2 v-belts that drove the A/C compressor also drove the water pump. I have NO intention of re-installing the A/C. How do I arrange a belt (and what belt) to drive the water pump? I see no help in the BBB. The pictures in the Chilton and Haynes manuals I have are drawings - show a belt going direct from the crankshaft pulleys to the water pump. Is this possible? How would I install it? How would I tension it? I want to install a v-belt arrangement like that of an SL never equiped with A/C. Is this possible? How? HELP HELP HELP!

    ---------------------------

Long Story:
I recently noticed a rather serious coolant drip under the car ('71 280SL). While the engine runs, it drips a good, heavy drip once every 2 - 3 seconds. I consider that serious. Plus, it's poluting my engine compartment, not to mention the environment.
Anyway, it *APPEARED* that the leak was comming from "somewhere" below the thermostate housing, but above the heater hoses that project out from the enging to the driver side wheel well housing. Unfortunately, the actual source of the leak is not visible from any angle. Not even with a retractable mirror. The Frigiking A/C compress is really in the way, as is it's huge heavy mouting bracket, which also mounts the alternator (A/C is below, Alternator is up top).

Now, the A/C hasn't worked in some 15 years according to the previous owner (my Dad :-) ). So, I figured I'd just remove it now, and take care of this leak and A/C removal at the same time.

Here's where the nightmare get worse. I cut the 2 v-belts to the A/C to make it easier to remove. Yea, ...laugh...easier! Nothing's easier! Anyway, I did finally get the whole Frigiking system out. And, I did so without removing the radiator, front of engine, and harmonic balancer (I ended up mangling some old wrenches for access).

I've taken all accessible nuts & bolts out, to remove this huge bracket, but it is still not free. I fear that there is one bolt on the passenger side of the water pump, behind the harmonic balancer. Yikes! Can anyone confirm that? I need this bracket off so I can see and access the "stuff" under the thermostat housing, and repair the leak. How do I get this bracket off?

About 18 months ago the car had the cooling system power flushed with a flushing agent (Before I got the car). I hate these things because (I believe) it drastically reduces the life of the rubber hoses. Since this job has already been a nightmare, I plan on replacing every cooling ruber hose on the car - so as not to have to do this job again in the near future.

Here's where I need help:
(1) there seems to be a very short, but fat rubber hose going from the lower body of the thermostat housing to the heater hose out port. Is this a make shift hose, or one with a part number I can order?
(2) there also seems to be some contraption under this huge heavy bracket (for the A/C and alternator). I fear this is the leaking component. What is this contraption?
(3) how do I get this huge heavy bracket off the engine?
(4) once repaired, how do I set up the v-belts, without the A/C, to drive the water pump?
(5) Do I need the A/C v-belts tensioner pulley, or can I toss it?
(6) I'd like to cut this huge heavy bracket to make it smaller and less intrusive down the lower part of the engine. Cut off the A/C mount. Can I safely do this?
(7) Am I just babbling gibberish, or does anyone understand what I'm saying?

I'll try to attach some pictures tonight, to make this all seems clearer.

Any and All help would be huge, I'm really worried about this project. Thanx!


--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
William Blair Wagner: blairwag@earthlink.net
Education is not always knowing the answer,
...but rather knowing where to look for it!
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Photo "sideview" edited to show more deatil by Admin 5/11/04

[blairwag]

Wow, am I ever having a hard time attaching these picture images. Ah, ha! I have to use Internet Explorer. I guess the uploader doesn't like Netscape.

anyway... The BBB shows a different v-belt configuration than my car has. BBB shows the A/C on the top passenger side of the engine, and the alternator below it. My engine has just the opposite. A/C down below, and Alternator above. The Haynes 230/250/280 '68-'72 tells me nothing about belts (both cooling and alternator sections). It shows the alternator with a totally different bracket and different mounting location. The Chilton Repair and Tune-Up Guide '68-'72 MB2 doesn't help either. Am I screwed?

Any help?  What v-belt to use now? How to install/tension. How to get this bracket off so I can locate the leak? Are all heater hoses same diameter?


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[Photo "sideview" edited by Admin to show more detail 11 May 04]
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
William Blair Wagner: blairwag@earthlink.net
Education is not always knowing the answer,
...but rather knowing where to look for it!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Cees Klumper]

William - I'm pretty sure you need to move the alternator bracket to down below on the block like the BBB says. The bracket attaches with two bolts directly to the block. You want to make sure it's the right bracket for the alternator in that spot. Then I believe there's one fan belt that drives the water pump and the alternator, with the latter acting also as the adjuster for the belt tension. Then there is usually another belt for the power steering pump, but I'm not 100% sure about this. I can check when my car and I meet up later today.

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[Ben]

Sorry I cant really be of much help since I have neither a/c, power steering nor a 280SL but I do recall from rebuilding my 230SL engine that there is a small hole in the harmonic balancer and I think its there to allow access to a bolt behind it, or an allen head. this might be the water pump bolt you refer to !

Hope that helps and best of luck !

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor

[blairwag]

Thanx, Cees. Yea, I could really use any info you can muster. Is it possible that there's a different alternator for the car with A/C as opposed to without?  The Adsitco web site lists 2 different part numbers. Or, perhaps there's just a different pulley that must be mounted on the alternator. Ugh, what a nightmare this is turning into. I have no source for these parts. HELP!

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
William Blair Wagner: blairwag@earthlink.net
Education is not always knowing the answer,
...but rather knowing where to look for it!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[George Des]

William--there is one point of attachment behind the harmonic balancer vibration dampener that you may be missing. What it is is a stud with a nut on it. Sorry there is no other way to get it off without pulling the dampener. The hole in the dampener is so you can remove/replace the studs that hold the timing cahin slippers in place--you don't need to be fooling with these at this time. The vibraion dampener removal should be no big deal if you remove the bolts from the pulley assembly and use a big puller to pull the pulleys off, the vibration dampener should pull right off by hand aftere the bolts are out and the pulleys off. It may even come off with the pulleys--mine did. You do not need to remove the harmonic balancer so leave that big Jesus nut that takes about 150lbs torque to attach it to the crank alone. I think in your case you might have 6- 14mm bolts to remove--the 230Sl only has 3 of these.

George

[Cees Klumper]

I can take a bunch of pictures from my spare M130 (280) engine that will show the routing and location of the alternator bracket, the alternator, size of the pulley, anything that's behind the vibration dampener, etc etc. But it won't be before this weekend I'm afraid. Let me know if this would be helpful and I'll plan for it.

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[blairwag]

George, thanx for the excellent description. Thanx also for the email. I'm on it. I'm in search for the bracket and hardware.
Cees, the pictures would be most helpful - after all, they'll speak a thousand words
Tonight I pull the radiator, fan, remaining v-belt, and anything else in the way of getting the last nut off it's stud to get rid of that albatross of a bracket. I do desperately need to know how to ID the correct bracket, and where to install it.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
William Blair Wagner: blairwag@earthlink.net
Education is not always knowing the answer,
...but rather knowing where to look for it!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[blairwag]

Well, with all of your help, particularly George Des, I've gotten the huge heavy alternator-A/C bracket off the car. Shew, what a job! Isn't there anything easy to do on this car?

My friends at http://www.online-mercedes.com have located an alternator bracket for a w113. Since I've never seen it, I can't really tell if this is the right thing. They thing it is. I was wondering if any of you could look at it, and maybe look at yours and see if they look the same.

Cees, I could still really use pictures showing where it mounts. Folks have mentioned using SLS's web site to see diagrams of where this goes - but I jsut can't seem to find anything on their site that shows me - and the BBB has no diagrams or anything that tells me. Am I just a big dummy or what?


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--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
William Blair Wagner: blairwag@earthlink.net
Education is not always knowing the answer,
...but rather knowing where to look for it!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[blairwag]

Well, now that I'm getting the hang of uploading this pictures, I'm going bonkers with it, ey?  Just thought I'd share a couple of shots of the albatross bracket.

I have only one piece of advice for anyone out there that has an SL113 equipped with this monster:  Run away!


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--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
William Blair Wagner: blairwag@earthlink.net
Education is not always knowing the answer,
...but rather knowing where to look for it!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[ja17]

Hello William,
sorry I could't jump in sooner, I have been just too busy. I wanted to tell you about that 17mm bolt hiding in that recess of that bracket!
Anyway it looks like you got it off, good job. Yes that is the right alternator bracket. It is fairly common as it is also used on many of the era sedans. You may need different length bolts to hold the water pump on as I recall. Be sure to use threadsealer on of these bolts goes into the chain gallery. Check the mounting studs for the bracket on the block to make sure they will be the right length. A special "shoulder" bolt is used to mount the adjuster arm, you may have the right one from the old bracket. The non AC waterpump pulley will be different (less grooves if I recall?) but you may be able to work with the one you have.
That small hose under the thermostat housing is refered to as a thermostat "bypass hose" it has it's own parts number and has a slight bend in it. The part number I have is #127 203 0082. This number may have been updated.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

[hands_aus]

Hey Joe A,
Just a quick question off topic but related to your last post.
If the bolt that goes into the chain gallery leaks, would that give the appearance of a front crankcase seal leak?
thanks

Bob (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto

[Cees Klumper]

I will take these pictures on Saturday. That is the correct mounting bracket as Joe points out, and it should be an easy installation (particularly after all you've gone through with the old elephant bracket).
There are many easy jobs on the car, but let's start a thread on the hard ones, so we're all forewarned. I will do that next.

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[ja17]

Hello Bob,
Yes there are several bolts which can cause oil leaks which will drain down to the front seal/crankshaft area and look like a seal leak. Clean everything very well and use a strong light to keep an eye on it.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

[blairwag]

Cees, If you're still having trouble uploading the pics to this post, can you email me the pictures of the alternator mounting bracket on your engine?  mailto:blairwag@earthlink.net

Also, do I use t he 2 cm spacers that were between that old elephant bracket and the engine block, or does the new alternator-only bracket mount directoy to the block, via the 2 studs, without spacers?


--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
William Blair Wagner: blairwag@earthlink.net
Education is not always knowing the answer,
...but rather knowing where to look for it!
1971 280SL US Automatic
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[ja17]

Hello William,
The standard alternator bracket bolts right to the block without spacers. I think the AC studs may be longer than the studs for the standard alternator. You may have to change them or use some spacers on the outside of the bracket.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

[Cees Klumper]

Here's the photos (emailed separately to Blair) for the group:

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Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[Naj ✝︎]

What's that cylinder-like thingy hanging below the alternator bracket in Cees's pictures (assuming engine was right way up)?? :?:
naj

65 230SL
68 280SL

[knirk]

Looks like an engine damper. I havn't seen this on the 113, but it is used in later MB cars. There were one or two on my R 107.

Per G. Birkeland
69 280 sl aut 834
Norway

[Cees Klumper]

This engine is from a 280 SE sedan, so that's the explanation!

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[blairwag]

Is an engine from a 280 SE sedan basically the same as that of a 280 SL ?  What about other 280 xx model vehicles (like the 280 itself). Are they all basically the same?  I was under the illusion that the 280 SL engine had performance improvements not found on the others. Are they just add-on / bolt-on enhancements?

Are the parts from many of the other 280 xx vehicles that interchangable with the SL?

Where can I learn more (without exorbitant cost)?


--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
William Blair Wagner: blairwag@earthlink.net
Education is not always knowing the answer,
...but rather knowing where to look for it!
1971 280SL US Automatic
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Cees Klumper]

As for the engine, there are only three differences: the tachometer setup that is not present on the sedan (but I understand IS on the coupe version) - this is a set of gears that can be bought and installed as a bolt-on. Second is the camshaft - the european 280 SL had a hotter camshaft that is available from several European suppliers for around $500. It should go right in, although a new set of bearings may be required (not very expensive). AFAIK the US 280 SL models had the same camshaft as the sedans, so this is not a difference for many 280 SL's. Thirdly (which is not really a difference in the engine) is that the sedan uses different engine support arms (the aluminum arms that are each bolted onto the engine with four 17 mm nuts). They need to be swapped with the original SL arms, because otherwise the engine sits too high in the compartment and the hood may get damaged when closed. So as far as performance is concerned, the only difference that I am aware of is the camshaft on European models, which can be easily changed. This is why so many 280 SL's (and actually also many 230 SL's and 250 SL's) have received (used) sedan engine transplants rather than having the original engine rebuilt, which would typically be more expensive. Oh, and I understand that the FI pump is different on the SL from the SE, but that again is in my view not really an engine item.
Some time ago I bought a period parts interchange manual for 60-ies Mercedes models. It lists all of the parts that, well, interchange. Apparently there are many, like (AFAIK) the rear axle. Also the alternator, starter, water pump etc. I can dig into this publication more (have not really studied it yet) but it will probably be some time before I get to it.

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[knirk]

Cees,

Would it be possible and/or legal to have some of the manuals like the BBB and your interchange manual published somwhere on this sight?

Per G. Birkeland
69 280 sl aut 834
Norway

[Cees Klumper]

Hi Per - copyright laws prohibit us from publishing the BBB or other printed/published material, like the interchange manual, on this site (or even copy it for any purpose without prior permission).

You can obtain a BBB through for example Ebay, and the US MB Classic Center sells a CD-rom with the BBB, parts book, and owner's manual in .pdf format. The English-language version of the BBB is out of print at Daimler-Chrysler as far as I know, although I think they do still offer the German-language one.

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[blairwag]

Thought I'd drop you all an update. Saturday, I completed the assembly of my car, A/C andelephant bracket removed, with all new belts and hoses. The car started and ran fine. With the new alternator bracket, the alternator mounts beautifully, and is charging the battery. Engine temp is a constant 180 degrees F. So, that's the good news... with all of your help, I have successfully eliminated the A/C from the car, and put the car back together with NO SPARE parts (other than the A/C)   !

Now, the bad news. I still have my coolant leak   .  I'm starting a new thread to try to get some new interest and input on this. I'm thinking it's the water pump, now.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
William Blair Wagner: blairwag@earthlink.net
Education is not always knowing the answer,
...but rather knowing where to look for it!
1971 280SL US Automatic
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~