Restoration Dilemma: $ / Who / How ?

[k]

OK, I need advice. I have a '68 250 sl that needs a restoration; stopped kidding myself! The car looks fine at 25 feet; and still has shiny paint.

see pic:

http://www.mbca-ct.com/roadstersofthe60sandearlier/view.nhtml?profile=roadstersofthe60sandearlier&UID=10003



But, the main issue is the rust and body. I have invested about $15,000 in the car; including a rebuilt engine; Fuel Injection pump; rebuilt front end/kingpins; canvas top, brakes; shock,fuel pump; tires and many new parts/service over the past 14yrs. It has served as a summer/beach car. However, it still needs a lot:

-Body needs to be stripped
-Driver floor rusted
-Hood/Body top has bubbles
-front left panel edge PEFORATED & headlight bucket rusted
-rear left panel edge & inner wheel arch rusted
-Bubbles under all chrome trim on body
-quarter panels, rear of tire have bubbles
-Trunk floor rusted
-Left frame rail /jack strut rusted at back end
-4-5 dents
-All bumpers need to replated
-Grill/STAR/BARRELL needs to be straightened/replated
-Both seats need to be re-built/recovered
-Rug is OK; one or two sections needed
-Dash leather is fine/doors leather panelsfine
-wood ok
-All lights; radio, instruments; trim fine.
-Overall; car is complete and all options systems work & are complete; no hard-top.

However, there is alot surface/edge/bubble rust.


So, my dilemna is where do I take this? I want a daily driver NOT a concours 100 point car. A car I can drive to a local car show or out on special occasions.

I am happy to spend another $15-20,000 to get this restored (i have been told the sheetmetal alone is $3500-5000); but spending north of $30-40k all-in is worrisome. As a banker, I can't get myselft to spend more than soemthing worth; in this case I will go $5-10k over but not $10-20k

So, bear with me as a I am a restoration/paint/body work rookie:

-Is spending less than $5-10k on repairing panels/new paint a waste of time; (ie, must eradicate every speck of rust & dis-assemble all body pannel to frame?)

-Do I go to a local body shop that has experience with older euro cars and have them do the panel & body/paint (ie, remove all chrome; tape off glass/rubber/interior]; then send seats out and have a carpet kit & replating of bumpers done on my own.

-Do I go further and have a mid-level shop have the body removed and totally restored/and structurally repaired; with engine/drive train removed. But, not do a complete nut/bolt mechanical restoration; ie; car re-assembled and any mechanical systems corrected/serviced as needed.

-Do I send it to one of the elite restoration shops (Scott; Hatch; Silver Star; wth; white post, etc) and let them to a 100% body off restoration and return it to as-new with all new rubber, chrome, wood, leather, etc. & swallow the $35-40k additional cost.

I am asking, because almost every restoration shop web site say its possible to spend $100k and 50,000 hours on this car; and everything is on time/material basis....with estimates at a "best guess".

I have a strong emotional attachment to the car, as I bought it out of college at 23 as my first real car and have drove it since. However, I am aware that there are aspects of this car that are not perfect (ie, vintage roadster quirks; no a/c; long distance comfort; non-airbag/s-belts safety) and justifying paying $40,000 on it make it an issue vs. buying the new 350 SLK for not much more [not that i would do that!]

Any advice; on $ amount levels [hi/lo] spent in the USA on these 4 scenarios appreciated.

Thanks,

Kayvan
NY City

[rwmastel]

Kayvan,

If I were a person of considerable means, I would go for the whole thing.  Sure, you might spend $50,000 on top of what you have already spent in the last 14 years, but the benefits are these:

- you will not have to worry about any of this major work on this car for another 20 years.
- you will have a special classic car that is also as dependable, reliable and drivable as a new car.
- the car will continue to increase in value over the next 20 years.

Of course, this is easy for me to say considering I don't have the money to do anything to my car right now!  I would just hate to spend $15,000 on a "partial restoration" and have either mechanical or cosmetic problems that irritate me.  It all comes down to these factors:

- how much money can you reasonably afford?
- how much money would you consider putting into the car over the next 10 years after your partial restore?
- how upset will you be about the parts of the car that were not addressed during the partial restore?
- how will the car be used after the restore?

I'm sure you'll end up making a good decision that fits your needs and budget.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[Tom]

Kayvan,

Been there on the restoration and you will never get the money back you put in the car toward a body restoration.  So why do it?

Because it is not an investment but a hobby or has emotional elements that are not tied to the money.  If you have the discretionary income and want to own the car for life, it is more easily justified.

I will always own at least one w113 car.  I will continue to maintain and enhance the car and keep it in top shape as long as I can afford to put the money in the car.  It is not economical, but something I enjoy.

If you move forward with the renovation-send it to a restoration shop that knows these cars-don't pay the extra cost of someone else figuring the car out at your expense.  Gernold at SL Tech, Hatch in the Boston area, maybe Sports Leicht in Pinehurst.

The average local collision/body shop will not touch the car-they need for the car to come in and out within a few days-they make much more money by getting production through their facility.  A car that takes months to process takes up space and resources that volume shop is not set-up to handle.

Hope this helps.  Come up to West Point this weekend and see some of the other cars in your area.

Best,

Tom

_____________________________________________

1971 280sl Tunis Beige Metallic (restored & enhanced)
1971 280sl Tobacco Brown (low mileage stock)
_____________________________________________

[n/a]

A restoration does cost money...get prepared...
you should show your car to a specialist if you can and identify the structural part that needs restoration. You might get a clean prepared car for 15/20k, but won't get any cosmetic done for that price.
Once you have the structure set straight, you might gradually improve cosmetics, like non structure body rust, etc.
The last thing to take care wuld be the chrome and things like that (keep in mind rechroming will cost several thousands dollars).
How long are you ready to be without the car???
If you are VERY patient, you might also want to explore installements to the restoration process over 12-18 months or so....just thoughts...

Fabrice
Silver 1971 280 SL
New York City

[n/a]

My 280SL is almost ready after a 2 year restoration, starting in condition about "10 feet" better than yours (looked great from 15 feet). I am not building a mint condition showpiece, just a very nice Sunday driver. So far, restoration has cost me about $20K plus about 130 hours of my time, expect another $1K and 40 hours to go. From an economic standpoint, I would have been much better off (as you would be too) dumping my current car for $10K and buying one of the a nice condition roadsters available for $30K.

Luckily I can do most of the restoration work myself, but the body work (major rust repairs, painting, etc) I left to a professional. This is my second old convertible to be restored, and on the East coast, I have learned that rust repairs will cost twice as much and take twice as long as the bodyshop estimate. Like an iceburg, any rust you now see will actually be 10 times worse upon stripping the car down. It is VERY difficult to do partial rust repairs or to impose low dollar limits on a talented bodyshop. There is not much middle ground between a proper job (mega $$$) and bondo job using scrap metal/pop rivots.

Here are some pictures and details of my body restoration (bet this looks familiar to you!) http://www.activewire.net/mcmahon/bodyrestore.html


Mike McMahon, Baltimore MD
1970 280SL 4-speed manual
olive green ext, bamboo int

[mdsalemi]

K,

TWICE now in the past 24 hours, the website has been acting slow and peculiar, and my long post-replies have been LOST.

As I've been through this before I'll jot my thoughts down FIRST in a Word document prior to writing them out here.  I don't know what's going on but the website is in slow motion the past 24 hours.



Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[n/a]

Mike and K

I can only sympathise with you on the restoration front. It is always a difficult decision as to how far you go with repairs. My car is in for rust repairs at the moment. I was concerned about rust in my rear frame near the jacking point as well as few bubbles on one rear wheel arch and quarter panel. When the car was stripped we also found rot in the rear beaver panel, all the other quarter panels, both sills, the floor behind the driver's seat and under the headlights. Nothing fatal but expensive and time consuming to correct. There is no point in doing a quick fix on a car if you intend to keep it so quality repairs are the way to go. I went for a body shop that was well recommended and I'd seen lots of their work. They insisted that the car had to be totally stripped of lights, bumpers, trim etc so that there would be no masking lines. They cut out all the rust as completely, fabricated new panels, welded them in and rustproofed the whole car. Another job was to re-do previous rust repairs where new sections were merely welded over rusted panels. The quote has ballooned out to more than double the original estimate and the car had been gone for weeks. The good thing is that these repairs needed to be done and will last a long time. The downside of this exercise is that after spending a bucket load of money the car will look no different from when it went in.

Owning a classic car is a fine madness. You can put a dollar value on what it costs to keep but not on the enjoyment you have from owing it. I normally refer to my car as 'the mistress'. It's classy, expensive and demanding but great fun. My wife thinks that a real mistress would be cheaper to keep.

Mark

1965 230 SL light blue, auto, RHD

[Benz Dr.]

After several testimonials on both sites I'd say it's time to decide. Either you want to restore it or you don't. Everyones personal stories really won't help you to make that decision even if they are interesting to read.
Everyone has a different idea of what a restored car should be and there's as many ways to achive these ends as there are old cars out there waiting to be fixed up. I may get some hate mail for saying this but after owning the car for many years you've already got your money back out of it. It doesn't owe you. How many cars can you own for that long and still get most of your money back out of them?

So it's a rust bucket - lots of 113 are or have been at one point or another. I hold no particular empathy for someone who's deciding to spend 20 or 30K on a restoration. If you just paid that kind of money for it and the seller screwed you leaving the country then I'd feel badly for you. But you know what you have and what's been done so far.
The math may not add up when it comes to restoring this particular car but then the math rarely ever does on a straight non emotional level.

  It may be a good question but it,s not the kind of advice most people can give you. They can only tell you their own expiriences and then you have to relate that to your own. Should you send it to a shop that someone here has used before, well that would be usefull info. Right now you still have all this and a decision, or none at all. That's a decision too.

regards,
Dan c


Daniel G Caron

[k]

Thank you all for your thoughts: my decision is I am not going the professional ground up restoration route; for many reasons, mostly guided by reason.

1.) I love this car; and got it when I was 22; but, the facts are, I would be better off finding another one to professionally restore, for all concerned.

2.) The elite professional restoration shops actually start at $50,000 and go to $80,000, with the low end not including the interior or complete engine rebuild.  Thats what it ends up costing after you double everthing, add 50%, haggle/argue/ plead heart-attacks.  The shops that are in the $25-50,000 range are not nationally known except for local experts referrals...but, many do fine work.

3.) I can't justify that $ for this car; I got it for $4,500 and spent $10,000 over 14 years; and its been fine for my needs....beach, picnic, country drives. The extra "wow" of +$50-80,000 is just not going to be there for me. I would honestly rather buy a mint '85 Red Ferrari 308 GTSi QV for $45,000 and be wowed off my chair or the new SL 500 for $90k.

4.)My life currently doesn't justify this. I am a bachelor living in New York City (ie, zero parking or $450/mo.); I do have the money, and do deserve this but again -- gotta lot of other things on the way (hopefully!) ie, house, wife, kids, college ed and a move out to the west-coast probably....with a musuem quality SL in the mix to be crashed into by bikes or nicked along the way....don't think so!  If I was 65 and had a pristine garage and played golf all day, I would ship her off today! (only time a 35 yr old will envy a 65)

5.) What I have been told by experts is; my rust is not that bad.  These cars are constructed from massive elements and can be cut and saved; and K&K panels are avail for those that cant.

6.) My local interior/top specialist who did my convertible top for me referred me to a local european car body/paint specialist that has an excellent reputation and has done many 113s for him over the years.


7.) So, will probably end up spending $15-20k on paint/panels; + a carpet and seat kit. No, it wont be concours/elite shop quality.  But , I dont need that.  I just need my old beach car to be that, a nice beach car....that I can drive and have fun with, get some sand in, lug some picnic/clam-bake supplies in etc.....and not die if a wet bikini or champagne spills on the seats!

8.) If I do come into crazy money (not a long shot, in my busineess), I might actaully go for a 300 SL Gullwing or Roadster; for me my 250 SL is a run-about and will always be that.  The 308 however, I do have an emotional attachment to, even though I dont own it!

[n/a]

Just a thought

If you are going to spend 15-20 thousand on paint and panels, why not sell your car for 10-15 thousand and add that to the 20 thousand and you have 30-35 thousand to buy a car that can come close to a  restored one.

Remember rust never sleeps and it is usually double what you think it is.

Get a clean as they say california car.

My 2 cents

Howard Kramer
71280sl
387/255
and yes original from newport beach california