4HQ

[4HQ]

I am withdrawing this item it due to the administration accusing me of being a commercial seller without investigation.

Best of luck in your search.

GGR is a great guy.

Peter vam ess, you win,.. I stop selling, all the Pagoda members loose

[Peter van Es]

I am withdrawing this item it due to the administration accusing me of being a commercial seller without investigation.

Best of luck in your search.

GGR is a great guy.

Peter vam ess, you win,.. I stop selling, all the Pagoda members loose

I sent you, 4HQ, a private message to find out whether you were indeed a commercial seller, to point out our non-commercial policy on the board, and to invite you to use your real name.

Selling items on the forum by the way is also only meant for Full Members.

Very classy of you to respond this way. Next time, please try to at least get my name correct.

Peter van Es

[4HQ]

I have no intention of taking this any further.
The administration should investigate before pointing fingers.
You contacted me and said I was commercial.
Now back peddling and asking me to explain myself and who I am.

We both are spoiling it for other members.
This is truly childish.

I will refrain from selling to all members.

I am only appologetic to those I have past served and will no longer assist.

[Peter van Es]

Reading is not your strongest point either... from my original PM to you

Dear 4HQ

From your posts it appears that you are a commercial seller. We do not allow commercial posts on our forum unless:
....

Just a single, civil response to that message would have sufficed.

Peter

[4HQ]

The truth is not your strongest point either:

I am posting your complete private message to me with reply so others can clearly see.

You have abused your priveledge as an administrator to contact me and assume without merit or evidence. Then based on your inaccurate conclusion told me what I should do, Its your way or the highway. ?

" appears " means I could or could be, but when you say " So either refrain from posting as you do today, or become a Full, paying members and become open about it " means you as judge and jury have already decided I am commercial seller without even hearing my reply.

Concluding all of this,..I now need to distort the facts and admit I am a commercial seller. I must must now pay full membership fees to assist those in need ?

Peter, pound sand buddy, get a life, resign as an administrator, you have abused your authority.

It was very innapropriate for you to contact me with your conlusions. I did not even have a chance to defend myself with a reply to your initial private message and you are advising me what to do. Now you back pedal and try and cover your mistakes. ?

This is not worth the aggrevation to assist the innocent members who need hard to find parts.

Until you appologise publically I will cease to offer my private inventory to those in need.

From here forward I will explain that you are the cause of all of this, and they should now contact you for the parts they need.
 

 
Dear 4HQ

From your posts it appears that you are a commercial seller. We do not allow commercial posts on our forum unless:

- you are a full member
- you fully and openly advertise yourself as a commercial seller in your profile, name
- your status will then be changed to that of vendor
- and you can put your website, e-mail and telephone in your profile.

Vendors have the ability to post new items in the Commercial section of the forum. You can still reply to people asking for something.

So either refrain from posting as you do today, or become a Full, paying members and become open about it.

Peter van Es

Peter,

Nobody likes to be told they are wrong. 100% I am not a commercial seller.
I am an Private Adenauer collector who has a massive surplus of vintage parts.
I have no use for these and am trying to offer the parts to your group members.
I do not have adequate cash flow to become a full member.
You will only be spoiling it for your members if you take action against me.
Contact those who I have dealt with in the past. they will all verify it.
I am withdrawing my offer on the manifold from the post, I am no longer interested in assisting your members.
I have a bidding feedback of 237 since 1999 on ebay, tell me how this is possible if I am commercial ?


4HQ.. since you do not:

- let us know who you are, you don't use your real name
- you only post for sale messages
- you do not explain your background

I could only assume you are a commercial seller. I am sending you this personal message to investigate. I did not approach, or indeed attack you on the open forum, as you have now done with me.

Very classy.

I suggest you edit your post, retract that statement, use your real name, and explain a little about your background in public. You'll find much more success in selling that way.

Peter

[66andBlue]

I am an Private Adenauer collector ....
I do not have adequate cash flow to become a full member. ...

Really?
You can afford to collect "Adenauers" and to pay about 15% in eBay and Paypal fees for every sale you make there, but not come up with $30 to peddle your ware here?

[4HQ]

Yes I own 20 Adenauers.

I do not sell on ebay, I only buy on ebay.

[4HQ]

Enough is enough, I admit defeat, I am done here.

For those of you I have served in the past, I am sorry I can no longer assist you with your needs.

[Benz Dr.]

A human hair is not very big but it can still be split. And, I've never seen a conclusion that can't be jumped into.

Maybe not a comercial vendor in the eyes of the seller but rather someone who has a lot of surplus stuff to get rid of? 

  Do we have an actual definition of what a comercial vendor is? I know where I'm at with this but it's more than apparent that some do not and are clearly surprised when they're called on it. Pehaps a short note laying out what is or is not considered a comercial vendor may be helpful in fending off these sorts of misunderstandings in the future.

   

 
 

 
 

[Peter van Es]

It's very simple in my book, and in the rules we agreed on this forum:

- to sell here, you need to be a Full Member. It's a long standing rule, and one of the perks of being a full member
- if you only post "for sale" messages in response to people asking for things, you are cheating the system
- if you've posted 10 "for sale", or "I have one of these, call me" messages, you appear to be working the system, and being to look very commercial

The moderators think that in that case, you are likely to be commercial. That means: you make a living off selling stuff to others. A few years ago we relaxed the rules on commercial vendors. We invite them to become full members, to be open and up front about it, and to post in the commercial section. Nothing wrong with that. If, like you, Dan, or ja17 or stick-, you also help people out and provide insightful information, you are advertising your knowledge and skills at the same time as your business.

4HQ didn't do any of that. He just wanted to sell stuff. He did not tell anyone in public who he was, why he had these things, why he wanted to sell them. In the interest of fairness I approached 4HQ to ask him if he was commercial (after 10 "unfair" for sale posts, without a full membership, no "Hi, this is me" message), to publish his real name, place of business, and to pay up $30 for a full membership, in short, to stop "hiding" and working the system.

I got the abuse I got. You, Dan, of all people should appreciate what the moderators and I do. We ensure that people cannot work the system without giving some back.

If in doubt, read all of 4HQ's posts here and form your own opinion.

Peter
 

[Benz Dr.]

Oh, I'm not taking sides here at all. Like I said, I know where I'm at with this. I guess he thought he wasn't doing anything wrong and figured he was helping out but he certainly has the appearance of being a vendor of some description or another. I don't know, it's not my call anyway. Not that hard to become a member although I had a hell of a time to get the thing to work, which it finally did a while back.

I read through the comercial vendors rules and they're simple enough. This whole site is a living document that's subject to change from time to time and as long as those changes respond fairly to issues that need to be addressed, all will be well.  

[mdsalemi]

A collection of 20 Adenauers with lots of left-over parts such a collection engenders, and can't afford to become a full member? One advertisement in ANY collector publication--ONE--would cost way more than membership here. This full membership then allows access to a group that will buy long-paid for parts with what could be a win-win for both buyer and seller? Then the anonymity as well? Not getting all the upset here. If I had a fraction of the parts to sell it would be a no-brainer.

[Garry]

I have asked a couple of posters in the past year if they are commercial and as such would they like to be identified as a Vendor so that members can seek them out for future access to spare parts.  On each occasion they have been more than happy to be identified as such as they see it as an advantage for business and happy to do so. I do not understand 4HQ's problem with being a Vendor and Full Member, would have thought it would be good for business. And if he is not commercial, I thought the rules were very clear on being a full member to sell on the Forum.
Garry

[mdsalemi]

I do not understand 4HQ's problem with being a Vendor and Full Member, would have thought it would be good for business.

Maybe it's the old Groucho Marx phenomena, of not wanting to be a member of a club that would have you. http://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/04/18/groucho-resigns/
On the one hand, I can see the objection to non-commercial (whether it is beneficial or detrimental): commercial can be seen, right or wrong, as someone making a business in buying wholesale or manufacturing something, and selling retail.  A collector selling old stock parts is just that, a collector selling parts.  When that collection of parts gets huge--as a large car collector's stock could be--the definition can get a bit murky.  When the parts are gone, they are gone...if said collector then seeks out more parts to sell, they've crossed the line.  If the parts sale is endless, well, who knows?  Regardless, we all play by the same rules--become a full member for $30, and you can list for sale. Pretty clear.

A single advertisement in Hemmings is way more than $30.  Ditto for any of the Mercedes magazines.  Commercial advertising in The Star costs plenty; "free" advertisement for non-commercial advertisements come with the requirement of membership.

$30 is a small price to pay if you have a lot of parts for sale, even if this isn't the world's largest or best market. But whatever--he chooses not to become a member.  So be it.  He doesn't sell on eBay so best of luck to him in his endeavors.

When I sold surplus printing equipment and parts many years ago, my mantra was "He who dies [leaves the business] with an empty warehouse, wins!" I once had a 10,000 square foot warehouse FULL of parts and equipment.  When I exited the business, one small laser printer, that once cost $60,000, remained in my garage at home, and sold for $500 on eBay...with a smile...

[GGR]

I know 4HQ personally, as we both live in the DC area. He is a very nice person. He is a true MB enthousiast, especially when it comes to Adenauers. He is also a true treasure hunter in nature, as he will get very excited about a lead he got on a very rare part, or on a very rare option, and can talk hours about it. Unfortunately he has been facing some extremely serious health problems since a while. I have helped him out several times in moving parts around that were too heavy for him to move around. In turn, he helped me with a lot of parts at extremely competitive prices. He even gave some to me like a BMW transmission or some M117 heads for try purposes when I was developing my Coupe project. He also lent me some specialized tools for long weeks like a valve spring compressor when I needed it. 

I think this whole issue is more about form than contents. I guess 4HQ has been put off by the "dry" and direct style of Peter's email and he reacted to that rather than on the principle of being a Vendor or not. I tried to call 4HQ without success. Yes, I think 4HQ over-reacted as this could have been sorted out and clarified through an e-mail exchange with Peter. But I think this group should refrain from criticizing him too much with followers joining the band wagon. After all we are all MB enthousiasts, and we all have our different personalities (with that common disease of loving cars). I will go on trying to reach 4HQ and see if I can help smoothening out all this.

And I repeat, 4HQ is a great resource, not only for parts, but also for good stories and technical issues, eventhough more specifically on Adenauers, and he is a great chap to interact with in person. I hope all this will end up with some beers and drinks. 

[dseretakis]

Wow. I must say that emotions seem to have gotten the best of both parties here!
I just wanted to say that I know 4HQ personally as well. Being an Adenauer owner he has proven to be a very valuable resource for me. In the 3 or so years that I know him, he has volunteered innumerable hours of his time advising me on my car. His knowledge and generosity is truly impressive. His surplus parts stash is also amazing. I view him as a true enthusiast rather than as a commercial vendor - I have not as yet bought any Adenauer parts from him! He did lend me a chain tool for my 240D once and I barely knew him at the time!  For that I would characterize him as a truly nice guy and gentleman.
I would also suggest that 4HQ and Peter resolve this matter privately so that no more unnecessary "bashing" takes place.

[wbain]

I know both GGR and 4HQ. I've bought parts from both of them and always with good results. I need to pick up some parts from both of them. I'd better get cracking on that.

[Peter van Es]

Gentlemen,

emotions have nothing to do with this, on my part at least. As an officer of this club, I am due to uphold our rules. One of these is: you can only sell on this forum if you are a Full, paying member.

Now we normally do not enforce such a rule immediately, we are a little lenient. Some board members discussed 4HQ when he first appeared and posted his first "I have one of those for sale" messages. When he posted 10 "for sale" posts, we could only assume he was commercial (as most members here do not post that many for sale posts).

Hence we approached him, using a personal message, to come forward as a commercial member. I could have left the assumption out, but the signs were evident. Most people we approach this way come forward, sign up as a full member, are given Vendor status and can subsequently post in the commercial advertising forum, and are free to advertise themselves by name and link.

Regardless of all your character references, this is not what 4HQ did: instead he posted a defamatory message in public, attacking me personally. Accusing me of "abusing my administrator privilege".  I don't know him, I can only judge him by what he does and writes here. He got very emotional, and went public with it. I suggest that those of you that know him contact him, explain to him that:

• he broke our rules
• he insulted the elected President of this Group
• but that 4HQ is welcome back here, provided he abides by our rules

Peter van Es

[KevinC]

I don't see that anything needs resolving. I just don't get what guys don't understand about "you can only sell on this forum if you are a Full, paying member." Ante up and have at it. If not, post somewhere else.