Pertronix Ignitor installation problem

[Jowe]

Hello everybody,

I'm a new owner of an April 1964 230SL. It is in a very good original, rust free and well-maintained condition. With a new soft top, a new interior carpet and a fairly new re-paint, it looks beautiful. It also drives very well. However, I was recommended to switch the breaker point to a Pertronix Ignitor. After reading the installation instructions at Pertronix website as well as experiences on this and other web sites, I came to the conclusion that it might be fairly easy to make the installation myself. So I ordered the module called 1864LA, which I understood should fit my distributor.

I followed the instructions; disassembled the old point wire, point (as new) and condenser. The distributor was clean and slightly oiled inside. Since the bracket for the vacuum unit needed to be grinded a bit, it was removed as well. Now, It was time to install the new unit. The adapter plate was fit and fastened. Next, the ignitor module was to be mounted. However, one of the tiny nuts fell off and disappeared down in the distributor bowl Now, it didn't seem to be a fairly easy task anymore. The whole distributor needed to be removed in order to get the d-n nut out. The battery was removed, the vacuum unit removed and the distributor was taken out. At the workbench, the nut came out after a while. Since the distributor now was out, it was as good to continue the mounting on the workbench.

The ignitor module was fastened and the wires lead through the wire exit hole and rubber grommet. Before continuing, a check of the advance movement should be made. But it was stuck! No movement at all. After removal of the unit and investigation I found that the adapter plate was hitting a small clip that, most likely, held some part in fixed position. The simplest solution seemed to grind the adapter plate a little bit so the clip wouldn't interfere the advance movement. The ignitor module was fastened again (with one of the washers first disappearing down in the bowl...repeat...) and the magnet sleeve was installed. The bracket for the vacuum unit was grinded to give enough room for the magnet sleeve to rotate. The distributor, along with the cover plate and rotor, was mounted back on the engine. I was careful in mounting the shaft and rotor in the same direction as when removed. The vacuum unit was mounted and the advance bracket was fastened together with the ground wire that earlier was fit. Distributor cap on and the wires connected to the coil; red to + and black to -. Battery back and connected. Now it was time to listen to the beautiful song of a six cylinder West-German orchestra. Cranking...no ignition. Cranking...no ignition. What the h-l

What has gone wrong here?

[thelews]

Seems to me the other black wire coming from the car is your 12V ignition wire and should be on the + side of the coil.  Right now, your coil has no power.  The black wire from the car, if it is the ignition wire, should read 12V when the ignition is on and 0 when it is off.  Test it before connecting.

Also, the car may not start up immediately, it needs to be timed statically or dynamically.

[Jowe]

Thank's for the advise. I also thought it strange with the ignition cable to coil minus, compared with the mounting instruction. However, It was sitting there before my modification. I measured 11,88 V on the coil and 12,46 V on the battery. Should I move the ignition cable to plus instead?

[jameshoward]

Unless you were experiencing running problems with points, why not stick with them? Many here run on the original set up. I find points excellent. My current set have lasted for several years and I quite enjoy tuning the car (although the dwell, points gap,etc never seem to change thus I have to find other things to tinker with).

[mdsalemi]

Jowe,

Awful story! I have the -050 cast iron distributor. Pertronix install was less than an hour, most of that time grinding the plate to get it to fit. Once in, it was quick to get it all running. Been fine for 5 years now, nothing ever changes.

[thelews]

Should I move the ignition cable to plus instead?

yes

[Jowe]

Ok, I charged the battery overnight, switched the ignition cable from - to + on the coil, measured the resistance, voltage and ground according to the Pertronix installation instructions. All measurements were fine. But no ignition at all. I also tried with adjusting the distributor some 10-20 degrees, but with no change. It seems that this modification was too much for the beauty. Jameshoward, you probably have the right solution - back to the points.

[jameshoward]

Ok, I charged the battery overnight, switched the ignition cable from - to + on the coil, measured the resistance, voltage and ground according to the Pertronix installation instructions. All measurements were fine. But no ignition at all. I also tried with adjusting the distributor some 10-20 degrees, but with no change. It seems that this modification was too much for the beauty. Jameshoward, you probably have the right solution - back to the points.

I love my points!

[mdsalemi]

There is no question that properly set up, the points system as originally configured, works.
There is also no question that a Pertronix (or a Crane, or any other similar pointless ignition) system works too.
Clearly, there's a major problem here and just saying the Pertronix doesn't work, isn't solving it. Something's missing, or perhaps you have the rare DOA unit.
If you don't mind points and their maintenance, don't change from them.
But don't be so quick to judge Pertronix without getting to the bottom of the issue. Mine was a quite simple install on the -050 and has worked well for years.
Maybe your magnet ring is DOA. Maybe the pickup unit.

After mine was installed, I decided to go with the Pertronix coil for higher spark voltage and this was an improvement. It has stayed constant and the car runs well.

[thelews]

Wasn't there something about not using the ballast to the coil with the Pertronix?  I think you just have not installed it properly.  How have you determined there's no spark?  Did you pull a wire and see there was none?  Just because it won't start, doesn't mean you have no spark.

I don't have a Pertronix in my 113, but have in other cars.  They're great and generally great right out of the box and trouble free.

[rogerh113]

Prior to abandoning ship on the Pertronix, I would make sure that you re-installed the distributor properly (don't remember if it can be put in 180 out of sync), and that the Pertronix is correctly hooked up.  I know that there are differing opinions on the Pertronix vs points, but I have had the Pertronix in my '66 for probably a decade and it went in easy and has run flawlessly.  Much better revving engine than with the points - I did run with points several years before switching over, and I have never looked back.

Shame about dropping the nut - I am always super careful around open spots like the distributor and open valve cover.  Seems like those locations are like black holes - you drop anything in the vicinity and it just sucks them up and the bits disappear into some impossible and dangerous location ......

Good luck -- Roger

[ctaylor738]

You need to be sure that the magnet is all the way down on the distributor shaft.  You may need to tap it down, using a socket on the top.  If it isn't all the way down, the sensor won't pick up that the magnet is going past and won't fire the coil.

Another possibility is that you have fried the Pertronix by having it hooked up backwards on your initial installation.

Can you connect a timing light and see if you are getting spark?

[Shvegel]

Looking at your wiring at the coil I am curious? I see 2 wires on the negative terminal and only one on the positive.  If you are using a ballast resistor the 12V and red wire from the pertronix should be connected to one side of the resistor and the + side of the coil should be connected to the other side of the ballast resistor.  Without a ballast resistor(12V coil) the 12V and red wire of the Pertronix should be connected that the + side of the coil and the black wire in any case should be connected to the - side of the coil.

[mdsalemi]

FYI My ballast resistor was not used in the Pertronix installation per their instructions, and the Bosch coil I had.
Shortly went to the Flamethrower II coil by Pertronix and that too, has no external ballast requirement.
The ballast is still there, still mounted and one side of it is used as a terminal point for wiring. 

[Louis]

Great advice from all but if you need more advice  I would call the Technical Line and ask them what you need to know. (800) 827-3758

[garymand]

Mechanics tinkering with electricity  .  I worked in a Ford dealer shop when electroinic ignitions first came out.  The tune-up mechanics would jab a pick into the #1 wire (before inductive pickups) for their timing lights.  Since they didn't know how to measure the electronic signals for drell, they would bypass the new modules returning back to points and coil, problem solved.  And of course, the customer was never told.

Learning something new nearly always brings mistakes.  You need to assume its you and figure out what you are doing wrong. The points are a switch.  The new thing you put in is an electronic switch.  It goes in the same way the points used to: one lead to the coil minus (-) and one lead to ground.  The points ground the coil!  ALSO: never run your signal leads in parallel and close proximity to the high voltage output of the coil!!   When the coil fires, it will send a signal into the red wire risking damage to the electronic switch if it isn't well designed.  It called induction.  the highvoltage will induce a current in those wires you have so carefully configured to most efficiently do that.  The electronic distributors have a green wire from the points.  It is a shielded lead to minimize parasitic inductive signals to the newer electronic ignition modules, thus to avoid induced destructive voltage tranisients.

Off hand, you have wired the points in parallel with the coil.   Sorry, that means you wired the switch accross the coil: both leads going to the coil.  That's like wiring your house lights switch accros a light bulb.  The switch needs to be in series with the coil.  Only one lead goes to the coil.   Your points had the black wire hidden in the metal body of the disty.  The disty was the black wire.  The old black wire from the distributor terminal was the same as the red wire on the new switch.  It needs to switch the coil on and off.  you have it shorting the coil.  I'm guessing the power goes to the coil + (BTW, the eyelet should have been sized to fit the big screw and fit loose on the little screw.)  That should have been a clue. 

With +12 from the ignition connected to the coil +, the new switch red switch wire goes to the coil -.  to complete the circuit, the black switch wire goes to ground.  The coil circuit completes each time the magnet closes the switch.  Coil fires when the switch opens.  The switch is connecting ground to the coil.

[Shvegel]

Gary,
That would be the case if the Pertronix was indeed a switch between the red and black wire but it isn't. the red wire supplies power to the Pertronix electronics and the black wire is a switch to the chassis of the distributor(Ground).  If you Google "Pertronix wiring diagram negative ground" you will see this.

Jowe,
I am afraid the when the 12V supply was connected to the - terminal of the ignition coil along with the black wire of the Pertronix that the Pertronix unit was probably shorted to ground through the black wire and is no longer of any use.  I would verify you still have 12v at the 12v supply wire(covered with black tubing) before buying another one.

I also wanted to verify that you have not removed a ballast resistor in the course of this?  If not a new Pertronix with the red wire and 12v power connected to the + side of the ignition coil and the black to the negative side should solve the problem.

Attached is a photo of the electrical panel I wired at work last month.  I have a bit of experience.

For what it is worth I love my Pertronix.

[Jowe]

Thank's for all support and suggestions.

Now, I done a bench test with the distributor, a Volt-meter (VM) and a 9V battery. Following was done (found the procedure on another forum):
1) Connected a jump wire from battery – to aluminium plate on ignitor
2) Red wire of VM to battery +
3) Red wire of ignitor to battery + also
4) Black wire of ignitor and black wire of VM together
5) Rotating the distributor shaft with the magnet installed. If everything is correct VM should fluctuate from 0 to 9 Volts and back as rotating it.
However, the VM is showing constant 9 Volts when rotating the shaft and magnet. Obviously, the ignitor or the magnet seems to be fault.
I have been in contact with Pertronix technical support and the Ignitor package will be exchanged on warranty. So, until i get the exchanged module, I have re-installed the good old mechanical thing and got the orchestra to play again, although maybe not well-tuned.

Re. the initial switch of cabling on the coil should not have made any damage since plus and minus on the coil is not about plus or minus battery current, it's more about the direction through the coil, as I understand it. Obviously, the old installation worked well with the switched "in and out" cabling of ignition power. But now I have switched it to the right direction.

Stay tuned until I get a new ignitor back!

[Shvegel]

You are right the coil really does not care. It will not damage it to reverse the polarity.

[Jowe]

Today, I got a new Pertronix kit on warranty and installed it. The engine fired up directly  . So, the initial problem was obviously a fault Pertronix unit. Now, I will only adjust the timing and enjoy.

Johan

[rogerh113]

Excellent news!!  I will be curious to see what you think of the Pertronix once the car is tuned and you drive it a bit.  Please provide an update once you have formed an opinion.

Regards -- Roger

[alchemist]

I equipped two of older Mercedes with Crane 700. Crane themselves gave me instructions as which coil and ballast resistor I should use. Because each coil has different resistors, these systems work only with the recommended coils. I have Crane for at least 10 years with trouble free, I enjoy my Crane.

[garymand]

The trouble shooting process is helpful.

So from the words I gather:
the distributor is out of the car,
All the +'s go together: the +9v, +VM, and +Ignitor are all connected,
the -9V battery goes to distributor ground, (not the black wire)
-VM goes to -Igniter (black wire).

I checked the pertronix site but they don't explain the workings.. I gather it is a Hall effect switch: an electronic switch that needs + and - volts to operate.  The switch closes when the magnetic pole goes by.  The switch conneccst the black wire to ground (same as the points).  The magnet is causing the switch to close between the distributor ground and the -ignitor lead. 

The coil is operated much as before: the black wire shorting the coil negative to ground.

Thanks