A difficult restoration?

[andyburns]

Imagine the effort trying to bring this one back from the brink.  Eye watering.  And they still want 16k for it.  Struggling to see  where they pull the sum from.

http://www.beverlyhillscarclub.com/1966-mercedes-benz-230sl--c-3287.htm

or how about this 190 for 45 https://blu175.mail.live.com/default.aspx?fid=flinbox#tid=cmSMDkyJUe5BG9BwAhWtnmRA2&fid=flinbox

[jpinet]

A few weld tacks here and there, a dab of primer and it's ready to go!

[stickandrudderman]

I would have no problem restoring that car.
To be honest an awful lot of the cars I have seen are actually no better save for the fact that they've had some filler and paint tossed at them from a distance.
This one looks to me like a nice honest car that hasn't been messed around with and if I had a customer looking to buy a car with which to embark on the resto journey and he had the right budget I would say that this car is a very good starting point.
All of the money will be spent on restoring rather than undoing all the other bodges before you start and in today's market I think it's not far off where it should be money-wise.

[andyburns]

Stick, suppose anything is repairable if you have the time, money and inclination.  From that perspective I entirely agree.  Just that I have heard many a wise man talk about the best restorations starting with the best possible base being a proven recipe to inevitably keep the overall cost down and maximize any profits to be made upon sale. 

Also heard lots of people, including all the pros in here and places like motoring investments, talk about taking a good hard look at the undercarraige of the 113 for rust around the main structural members.  I know from own experience even small repairs are difficult, time sapping and expensive to get right.  I would have thought that given the amount of rust that you can see on this car, let alone the rust that probably is lurking beneath, that alarm bells would have been going off even for a highly experienced restorer like yourself.  How many hours would you have to pile into this to get it right?

[stickandrudderman]

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/z3koin3ukrzo1v6/AAAHqGuyGzD6xlXOqCIod797a

It's no worse than this one.

How many hours? How many years more like.

maximize any profits to be made upon sale

You can forget that. I only do restorations for people for whom the journey and the final product are what matters. If you have an eye on a profit you wouldn't do it.

[andyburns]

I would have thought if you could buy a much much better base for lets say 10k more that it may end up saving you much much more in the long run.  As you say in your own words 'years not hours'.  What is your hourly rate?  Wouldn't you advise a customer this if they presented a car to you in this condition?  Wouldn't it be in the customers best interest?  I can understand how a repairer would love to soak up all the hours from an hourly charge out perspective.

[GGR]

That is a lot of work. I wonder what the final cost of such a professional restoration is, compared to what it's worth on the market. I also wonder if people who engage in that type of restoration and cost were aware of it when they bought the car. I guess they are left to enjoy the journey and the final product by default, ending up passing the point of non-return somewhere along the way.

Of course, some people have a unique attachment to a particular car, having been in the family since new for example. For the rest, and even if Pagodas have gone up a lot recently, on a strictly financial point of view, it is still a better deal to buy a properly restored car as the market is having them go cheaper than what the professional restoration did cost.

[stickandrudderman]

I never quote in advance for work like that. I will give ball park figures that are usually around the 100k mark but I spend a lot of time with my customers warning them about the potential costs and work will only commence when I am convinced that are fully aware of what they are about to do.
I quite often get asked, "what's the worst case scenario?" and my answer is, "we take your car apart and turn it into a pile of bits and then you decide you don't want to continue. By that time you're probably into it for 30K including the cost of the car."
I turn a lot of people away because they can't accept the risks when they are laid out in no uncertain terms and I much prefer them to walk away than fall out with them a year later because they have got out of their depth.

[mdsalemi]

Well, Andy--last year I reported on one in significantly worse condition, been sitting since the 70s. Woman inherited from her father, nobody did anything to it. Missing many parts, mice attacked the seats, and I found little that could be salvaged. However she was thinking in the same range, myopic because of her incorrect perception of the 3-point star. The huge problem was that it could not be moved, and getting a flatbed or tow truck to its garage was impossible. My guess is it is still sitting, and she still thinks its worth some money above $10K.

Given that some people WANT to do their own work, as opposed to hiring a pro, this might be OK. Sure, money is better spent on one in good driving condition, but that is besides the point. They'll sell it, and somebody will enjoy a project...

[KevinC]

Struggling to see  where they pull the sum from.

I think I know where they pulled the sum from but would prefer not to mention it here. 

[andyburns]

Stick thats a fantastic approach but the question is have you ever looked at a customers car and said 'hey your far better to sell this again, recoup some of your initial outcome, and then look for a much better base to start from.  Its going to be much cheaper for you in the long run'.

I get it if its your grandfathers car but what if its some first timer who is utterly clueless to pitfalls of restoring a compromised shell who just doesn't realize that the car they think is a bargain is actually the worst possible start for them.  Even if you can save 20k on a restoration then its money you can spend on your kids education, all saved money is good surely?   Everyone wants to save money if they can, dont they?  This does happen quite a lot I suspect.  I know I have fallen into this trap myself in my younger days and then kicked myself for it after my knowledge had  time to catch up with my heart.

At the end of the day for me, and probably most other punters, money is a huge aspect.  I understand that when your the repairer and not the customer that your reputation is on the line and that your driven to do everything to the best of your ability.  I often struggle with this in my line of work as well.  The customer has no idea what is involved and the design processes or any of the technical aspects I have to go through to get to the end goal.  All they care about is the cost and what it claims to do on the label.

But many times I have been contracted to work on software where I have recommended very quickly after looking into the guts that it would be cheaper to start from scorched earth than patch up an old **** heap.  After 30 years doing what I do you get a feel for it.   

After going through what I have just endured I can honestly say it was the shell restoration that almost broke me.  All the mechanical stuff pales into insignificance in comparison.  Even if you are replacing entire panels you still have to fit them.  The skill involved  is insane if you have to start fabricating NLA parts or repair sections if you are at all interested in quality and trying to minimize body fill.  All the mechanicals can be bolted up with a bit of research and a torque wrench.  I have seen restorations where all the mechanicals have been restored beautifully to better than new in less than a year and 10 years on they are still working on the shell.  Was almost an entire years worth of work before I even began posting on this site and the amount of rust work I had to do was totally insignificant in comparison in nature to the little beauty Beverly Hills is trying to palm off.

Another aspect is if you want to end up with a car that actually doesn't have much factory sheet steel in it any more.  In my mind this should devalue the car significantly.  I think the price paid for unrestored cars I have seen recently back this up.

In summary I feel very very very very fortunate that I started with something that was half decent.  It has in fact saved me many tens of  thousands of dollars that I have reinvested into other areas of the car.

[jpinet]

Take a look a this heap that went for almost 15KUS$ on ebay!
No engine, no transmission, no interior.
Nothing left after a fire and there is rust everywhere.
I think the link is still active
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1970-Mercedes-280-SL-113-280SL-PROJECT-CAR-FOR-RESTORATION-NO-RESERVE-/171318475831?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=YgLoO2KcDyGLbR6UGMB6KEKnwu4%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

[stickandrudderman]

Stick thats a fantastic approach but the question is have you ever looked at a customers car and said 'hey your far better to sell this again, recoup some of your initial outcome, and then look for a much better base to start from.  Its going to be much cheaper for you in the long run'.

Actually, I have; pretty much verbatim!

The customer was insulted and left. However, his chauffer continued to bring the car in until the owner shipped it off to a main dealer in Belgium for a complete restoration. 3 years later the owner was 130,000 Euros lighter and the chauffer brought the car to me to get some of the mistakes put right.

[DaveB]

Yes it looks terrible but at least Beverley Hills always show comprehensive photos including undercarriage. Pricing? They know market value and they set a price maybe 15-20% above that. Sounds entirely reasonable.

[andyburns]

Stick, you must have had at least a tinge of a grin on your dial when they came back,  I can imagine!  Nothing like giving your advice for free just for it to be ignored.    I saw a funny thing doing the rounds of the internet recently which termed these type of people 'askholes'.  I thought that was most amusing.  Anyway Stick I am without a shadow of a doubt sure you are one of the best proponents of sensible W113 advice in the entire world so please dont get my friendly banter confused with me trying to have a go at you in any way.  Just interested in your thoughts and rationale.  Have loved reading all your posts over the years and seeing the incredible work you have done with the rougher examples dragging them back from the brink.  Awesome stuff.

[stickandrudderman]

I generally remain anonymous on forums but this site is the exception because it's the only one I've found that is largely free of slanging and bitching, something I don't like (unless it's face to face, and then I quite enjoy it!).

I don't purport to be an expert, I'm just someone who was factory trained a long time ago and have been doing it for a very long time, long enough to know that most people who claim to be experts are only expert at one thing and that is BS. Whatever you do in life, there is always someone who knows more than you and there are plenty who simply think they do. A wise man knows that he doesn't know what he doesn't know.

I like the atmosphere here; the knowledge base is of a high standard and is spread across the globe and am happy to share my experience.

[andyburns]

100% agree stick.  There is a million miles between someone who merely has an opinion and another who has the facts.  Needless to say the great thing in here is that both are more than likely to share the same love.